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Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 29 2007,06:24) 21 – Bear the reproaches due others (Psalms 69:10, Isaiah 53:12, Romans 15:3) Psa 69:10 When I wept, and chastened my soul with fasting, that was to my reproach.
Psa 69:11 I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them.
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Can you show me where he ever wore sackcloth? The Isaiah 53:12 reference was answered in a post to david.Quote 22 – Be a priest (Psalms 110:4, Heb. 5:5-6, 6:20, 7:15-17) Yet he was never anointed as a priest.
Quote 23 – Enter publicly into Jerusalem on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9, Matthew 21:1-11, Mark 11:1-11) This one will be fun (and funny). I’ll enjoy it again when I get to this part of Matthew. Matthew was a comedian!
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Mat 21:7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.
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From the Septuagint
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Zec 9:9 [Apostles] Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; proclaim it aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem; behold, your King is coming to you, righteous, and your Savior; He is meek and riding on a donkey, a young foal of a donkey.
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It is only one animal yet Matthew has him riding in on two animals!! What a laugh! At least Mark is smarter and only uses one animal. I’m telling you, Matthew was either incompetent or intentional.
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Mar 11:7 And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him.
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Don’t stop at Zec 9:9 though
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Zec 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
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Did any of this happen? Unfulfilled prophecy yet again. Many swings, many strikes.Quote 24 – Enter the Temple with authority (Haggai 2:7-9, Malachi 3:1, Matthew 21:12-24, Lk. 2:27-38,45-50, John 2:13-22) What authority? The authority that was eerily absent from all histories outside of the Christian bible? I think there is a difference between ‘shaking the nations’ and chasing vendors out of the temple with a whip don’t you?
Did any of this come to pass?
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Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
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More unfulfilled prophecy.Quote 25 – Be hated without cause (Ps. 69:5(4), Isaiah 49:7, Jn. 7:48,15:24-25) They had plenty of cause. He broke G-d’s Torah. Besides Ps 69:4 is about King David not a future Messiah. I mean after all if you want to apply 69:4 to him go on and apply 69:5 as well. Or is this more taking verses out of context to make a Messiah?
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Psa 69:5 O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee.
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Is Jesus saying he is both foolish and sinful? Guess so. So much for the perfect god-man.Isaiah 49 is not about a Davidic Messiah. It is about Israel. Go back and read the first few verses and try to fit Jesus into them. You can’t do it.
Quote 26 – Be undesired and rejected by his own people Psalms 69:9(8), Is. 53:2,63:3, Mark 6:3, Luke 9:58, Jn 1:11,7:3-5) Of course he was rejected by his own people. He broke G-d’s Torah! He wanted them to drink his blood! These people were attracted to paganism but they hadn’t gone that far off of the deep end yet.
As I said above, Ps 69 is about King David, Is 53 is about Israel. Did Jesus come from Edom wearing dyed garments from Bozrah (Is 63:1)?
Quote 27 – Be rejected by the Jewish leadership (Psalms 118:22, Matthew 21:42, John 7:48) Drinking blood will get you rejected by these folks among other things.
Psalm 118 is not Messianic but a song of praise to G-d. Besides the verse is present tense not future
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Psa 118:22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.Quote 28 – Be plotted against by Jews and Gentiles together (Psalms 2:1-2, Acts 4:27) Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
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What kings of earth even knew of Jesus? They’ve only heard of him through his followers after his death and they certainly did nothing against Jesus. How could they he was dead.Quote 29 – Be betrayed by a friend (Psalms 41:9, Matthew26:21-25,47,50,55, John 13:18-21, Acts 1:16-18) When was Judas ever considered his close friend that he trusted? Judas was only in it for the money. But if you insist on applying Ps 41:9 to Jesus to make him into a cut-n-paste messiah, don’t forget Ps 41:4
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Psa 41:4 I said, LORD, be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee.
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Christian writers weren’t to careful.Quote 30 – Be sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12, Matthew 26:15) I didn’t know Judas was a shepherd. I thought Jesus was to be the shepherd. Learn something new every day. D
oes anything else in Zec 11 fit Jesus at all? Another case of cut-n-paste messiah.Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 29 2007,06:24) 31 – Have his price given for a potters field (Zechariah 11:13, Matthew 27:7) That’s not what Zec 11:13 says
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Zec 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
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This says nothing about purchasing a field with the money. YHVH tells Zechariah to throw the 30 pieces of silver to the potter in the house of YHVH. You’re pointing out more errors in Matthew than I have thus far!Quote 32 – Be forsaken by his disciples (Zechariah 13:7, Matthew 26:31,56) Now I KNOW you didn’t even read over this list. This is perhaps the worst one you could have listed because Zec 13 is about a false prophet. Unless of course this was your intention?
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Zec 13:3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
Zec 13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
Zec 13:5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
Zec 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
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Now tell me, are you really willing to apply this chapter of Zechariah to Jesus?Quote 33 – Be struck on the cheek (Micah 4:14;5:1, Matthew 27:30) This is what the LXX says
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Mic 5:1 Now shall the daughter of Zion be completely hedged in: he has laid siege against us: they shall smite the tribes of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.
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Since the Christian writers used the Septuagint Matthew did not intend these to be linked. Beyond that, even Christian translations disagree with the tense of Mic 5:1 but most use a present tense rather than a future. Whatever the case Jesus never ended up being a judge or ruler of Israel so no big deal.Quote 34 – Be spat on (Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67, 27:30) Hey is Jesus the first person that was ever spat upon? That would be a hard prophecy to fulfill. Of course there is more here but let’s not do the cut-n-paste messiah thing again OK?
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Isa 50:4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned.
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Several ways to look at this. If Jesus was a god in the flesh why would he need G-d to give him the ‘tongue of the learned’? But if he was just a mere mortal then this would be OK.
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Isa 50:9 Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up
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Well it seems he was condemned. To die.Whatever the case this chapter of Isaiah is not messianic. It is Isaiah speaking as G-d’s prophet. That is what is being referred to in Is 50:4. Yet another case of cut-n-paste messianism.
Quote 35 – Be mocked (Ps. 22:8-9(7-8), Matthew27:31,39-44,67-68) Does this sound like the Jesus you know?
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
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Christians think he is an angel or deity in the flesh. Others call him just a man. Here he is saying he is not even a man but a worm. You all put your trust in a worm?Quote 36 – Be beaten (Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67, 27:26,30) Already covered this one above.
Quote 37 – Be executed by crucifixion, by having his hands and feet pierced (Ps. 22:17(16), Zech.12:10, Matthew27:35, Lk 24:39, Jn. 9:18,34-37,20:35, Rev. 1:7) Ps 22:16 is a favorite of Christians. Shame it is mistranslated in almost every Christian bible out there.
The phrase translated as ‘pierced’ is ‘kara ariy’. It means ‘like a lion’ or something similar. How do I know? Because the translators agree with me. See Gen 49:9, Num 23:24, Num 24:9, Ps 10:9, Ps 17:2, etc. Therefore Ps 22:16 should be translated
Psa 22:16 (22:17) [JPS 1917] For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.
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In fact even in the KJV you have the following in the same chapter
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Psa 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.Psa 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. {hehe unicorns no wonder atheists use that}
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Of the 80 times that ‘ariy’ is found in the KJV, guess how many of them are not translated as ‘lion’? Only one. You guessed it Ps 22:16. Can you see why Jews reject the Christian bible? It is manipulated to read Jesus back into the ‘old testament’!!On to another favorite of Christians Zech 12:10. Here’s how the KJV reads.
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Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
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Seems there is some viewpoint changes in this one verse. It goes from ‘me’ to ‘him’. That is no real issue because the rest of this chapter has nothing to do with a
messiah. The context is of war. What war does the Christian bible speak of during Jesus’ crucifixion?This chapter is about the death of Josiah.
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Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.2Ki 23:29 In his days Pharaohnechoh king of Egypt went up against the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates: and king Josiah went against him; and he slew him at Megiddo, when he had seen him.
2Ki 23:30 And his servants carried him in a chariot dead from Megiddo, and brought him to Jerusalem, and buried him in his own sepulchre. And the people of the land took Jehoahaz the son of Josiah, and anointed him, and made him king in his father's stead.2Ch 35:24 His servants therefore took him out of that chariot, and put him in the second chariot that he had; and they brought him to Jerusalem, and he died, and was buried in one of the sepulchres of his fathers. And all Judah and Jerusalem mourned for Josiah.
2Ch 35:25 And Jeremiah lamented for Josiah: and all the singing men and the singing women spake of Josiah in their lamentations to this day, and made them an ordinance in Israel: and, behold, they are written in the lamentations.
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Aside from this how does the rest of the chapter fit Jesus? It says the every family will mourn his death. With a mourning such as this one would think that it was an event worthy of the history books. Yet we see nothing of this great loss in any place except the Christian bible.Jesus, the cut-n-paste messiah.
Quote 38 – Be thirsty during his execution (Ps. 22:16(15), John 19:28) Wouldn’t someone being thirsty be a shocker? Ps 22 already covered.
Quote 39 – Be given vinegar to quench that thirst (Ps. 69:22(21), Matthew 27:34) More cut-n-paste without daring to check the context. Tell me how many of these are supposed to be Jesus.
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Psa 69:19 Thou hast known my reproach, and my shame, and my dishonour: mine adversaries are all before thee.
Psa 69:20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none.
Psa 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.Psa 69:27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness {vs ‘forgive them for they know not what they do’}
Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous {this is your savior?!?}
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As so many times before you have to take the whole context not just the verses that seem to match. Otherwise its still ‘cut-n-paste messiah’.Quote 40 – Be executed without having a bone broken (Exodus 12:46, Ps. 24:31(20), Jn. 19:33-36) There is no Psalm 24:31. Whatever the case John was the only gospel writer to have Jesus die on the eve of Passover to try to make him appear as the lamb of G-d. The synoptics had him die on Passover. Once again John has to make his case by saying stuff like ‘this was done because the prophet said’. Can anyone doubt when a writer goes out of his way to point these things out?
Hey did anyone eat Jesus that evening? After all, the paschal lamb was to be eaten after it was prepared. Maybe that’s why the tomb was empty. That Joseph! He took that eating of flesh and drinking of blood a little too literally it seems.
Beyond that only those who were clean were supposed to partake of the Passover. Yet Christians say that you are not clean before you come to Jesus but he makes you clean. This contradicts Hashem’s Passover.
Quote 41 – Be considered a transgressor (Isaiah 53:12, Matthew 27:38) He was a transgressor. But Is 53 is speaking of Israel anyway so no big deal.
Quote 42 – Be “cut off, but not for himself” (Daniel 9:24-26, Matthew 2:1, Luke 3:1,23) Daniel 9:26 must have more different translations than any other verse in the Jewish bible. At least among Christian translation. The Septuagint says ‘there is no judgment in Him’. Many others say he will have nothing. The KJV is all alone in saying ‘but not for himself’. This one will take some study. I will get back to it or just explain it when I discuss Daniel 9.
Quote 43 – Be the one whose death would atone for the sins of mankind (Isaiah 53:5-7,12, Mark 10:45, John 1:29, 3:16, Acts 8:30-35) None of that is about atonement. You obviously know very little about the atonement of the Jewish scriptures because G-d despises human sacrifice. Also the verses you listed say that Israel will suffer because of the iniquities of those around them. Sins will not be removed or atoned for by the death of other human beings. G-d says many times in the Bible that no one else can be responsible for another’s sins. Each person is accountable for their own sins.
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Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
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Quote 45 – Be raised from the dead (Ps. 2:7, 16:10, Isaiah 53:9-10, Matthew 28:1-20, Acts 2:23-36, 13:33-37, 1 Cor. 15:4-6) Uh OK. Ps 2:7 says nothing of resurrection. Ps 16:10 was already covered earlier. Is 53:9-10 says nothing of being raised from the dead.
Quote 46 – Ascend to the right hand of God (Psalms 16:11, 68:19(18), 110:1, Luke 24:51, Acts 1:9-11, 7:55, Hebrews 1:3) Ps 16:11 says nothing of an ascension. As to Ps 68:18 what about the prior verse
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Psa 68:17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.
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Whatever the case read Ps 68. It is in no form or fashion a messianic passage. Cut-n-paste strikes again.Quote 47 – Exercise his priestly office in heaven (Zechariah 6:1, Romans 8:34, Heb. 7:25-8:2) What’s this?
Zec 6:1 And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.
Quote 48 – Be the cornerstone of God's Messianic Believing Community: Psalms 118:22-23; Isaiah 28:16; Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-7 Answered Ps 188 above.
Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
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Present tense not future. Beyond that the rest of the chapter does not fit Jesus in the slightest.Quote 49 – Be sought after by Gentiles as well as Jews (Isaiah 11:10, 42:1, Acts 10:45) 50 – Be accepted by the Gentiles (Isaiah 11:10,42, 49:1-12, Matthew 12:21, Romans 15:1)
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
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You forgot to include 11:11-12. None of this is true so this cannot be about Jesus. None of the rest of Is 11 came to be either so if it is Jesus he failed miserably.
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Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
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Is Is 42:2 true of Jesus? He cried (‘Jesus wept’), and he certainly preached all over the place so he was indeed heard in the street. Not Jesus then.Is 49 is Isaiah speaking on behalf of YHVH. Covered above.
Quote Only G-d knows when the true Messiah will come. Check Daniel. God told us when “Messiah the leader” would appear. This is why the Jews were in “expectation” at that time.
Quote I know the Jewish bible has them [contradictions] too but they are not so evident as the ones in the gospels or even the rest of the Christian bible. Wrong, the Hebrew scriptures do not have contradictions either. my point is that at first glance, sometimes things appear to be contradictions. Cain's wife, for example, isn't a contradiction.
Secondly, if there are contradictions in the Hebrew scriptures as you say here, why do you defend it and yet bash the Greek scriptures on grounds of contradiction?
That makes no sense!
You argue that the Christian Greek scriptures have contradictions and therefore Jesus is not the Messiah.
Yet you believe the Hebrew scriptures have contradictions.This astounds me.
Quote Thank you for this. It still does not address the glaring contradictions found in the Christian bible. I know the Jewish bible has them too but they are not so evident as the ones in the gospels or even the rest of the Christian bible. I do not believe the Hebrew scriptures have any contradictions. If you could point any such contradictions out to me, maybe I could help.
david
Quote Only G-d knows when the true Messiah will come. Read Ezekiel 37-38 to get a real idea of the condition of the world when the Messiah comes. The prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures showed the Messiah as coming in two different roles.
One was “humble, and riding upon an ass,” whereas the other was “with the clouds of the heavens” to annihilate opposers and have all rulerships serve him. (Zec 9:9; Da 7:13)
The Jews failed to appreciate the fact that these prophecies related to two distinct appearances of the Messiah, these appearances occurring at widely separated times.
Quote (942767 @ Oct. 29 2007,17:12) Hi Towshab: The very fact that there was a curse on Jeconiah and his seed perhaps indicates that God had an alternative means of keeping his promise to David, and this was through the virgin birth of Jesus.
There are other reasons why the Messiah cannot be a man born of the sperm of man.
God Bless
Hello 942767,This answer is certainly one that comes from the heart. I know you want to believe that the Christian bible is true but I ask you: why would G-d choose this genealogy if there were some obvious holes in it? He could have chosen someone else. Surely G-d didn't forget His promise that Jeconiah's bloodline was cursed did He? And it is all ruined with the virgin birth in any case.
You DO know that virgin birthes by a deity were a popular pagan beliefs around that time right?
What are the other reasons that the Messiah cannot be born of sperm of a man? Let's discuss those and see if they are valid.
Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2007,20:49) Quote Only G-d knows when the true Messiah will come. Check Daniel. God told us when “Messiah the leader” would appear. This is why the Jews were in “expectation” at that time.
If you look at the original text it is yet another instance of moshiach or 'anointed'. There was to be nothing particularly special about the moshiach of this time. He was not THE Messiah. Many kings and priests were called 'moshiach' in the Jewish scriptures.Yes they were looking for a deliverer. But the Christians have been looking for Jesus to return since the 1st century. At least the Jewish scriptures never say 'quickly' in relation to the final moshiach.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Quote Quote I know the Jewish bible has them [contradictions] too but they are not so evident as the ones in the gospels or even the rest of the Christian bible. Wrong, the Hebrew scriptures do not have contradictions either. my point is that at first glance, sometimes things appear to be contradictions. Cain's wife, for example, isn't a contradiction.
No contradictions? Surely you jest. I don't have time but I can find many for you. But these contradictions are not of the same strength as those found in the Christian bible.Quote Secondly, if there are contradictions in the Hebrew scriptures as you say here, why do you defend it and yet bash the Greek scriptures on grounds of contradiction?
Because the contradiction found in the Jewish scriptures are likely copying errors. The contradictions found in the Christian bible are due to the gross incompetence (or intentionality) of the writers. I have listed the contradictions in the resurrection and you've yet to address them. I will pick up again soon with Matthew and I'm still in the 2nd chapter!!Quote That makes no sense! You argue that the Christian Greek scriptures have contradictions and therefore Jesus is not the Messiah.
Yet you believe the Hebrew scriptures have contradictions.This astounds me.
Why should it? G-d is G-d. Man made the mistakes, not G-d. But G-d was not responsible for the mish mash that is the New testament.Quote Quote Thank you for this. It still does not address the glaring contradictions found in the Christian bible. I know the Jewish bible has them too but they are not so evident as the ones in the gospels or even the rest of the Christian bible. I do not believe the Hebrew scriptures have any contradictions. If you could point any such contradictions out to me, maybe I could help.
david
Like I said, I do not have time. The contradictions I refer to in the Jewish scriptures are copyist errors. But that does not take away contradictions. Yet these contradictions are not of the same magnitude of those found in the Greek texts.Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2007,20:51) Quote Only G-d knows when the true Messiah will come. Read Ezekiel 37-38 to get a real idea of the condition of the world when the Messiah comes. The prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures showed the Messiah as coming in two different roles.
One was “humble, and riding upon an ass,” whereas the other was “with the clouds of the heavens” to annihilate opposers and have all rulerships serve him. (Zec 9:9; Da 7:13)
The Jews failed to appreciate the fact that these prophecies related to two distinct appearances of the Messiah, these appearances occurring at widely separated times.
Wherever do you get the erroneous idea that the 'son of man' is the Moshiach? Because Jesus calls himself 'Son of man'? So does Ezekiel! The phrase is found in 93 verses of Ezekiel.Look at 7:13 in relation to other verses
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
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Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
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Who is this 'son of man'? It is the 'saints of the Most high', a collective body of people. This is likely those Jews who are faithful to Hashem and the context of the entire chapter does not lead to a singular moshiach but a group of people.Quote So here are the glaring contradictions
1) Matthew has guards, an earthquake, and the women meeting the angel outside of the tomb. The guards and women are scared by the angel and the earthquake. The other gospels do not have these things
2) Mark has the women leaving, saying nothing to anyone.
3) Women, including Mary M. meet Jesus on the way to either Galilee or the disciples in Matthew. No mention in Mark or Luke. In John, Mary M. meets Jesus in the tomb, not on the way back.
4) In Matthew, disciples are to meet in Galilee, in Luke they meet in Jerusalem
5) One angel outside in Matthew, one inside in Mark, two inside in Luke and John.
6) Mary M. tells Peter about the encounter with angels and he goes to the tomb in Luke. In John, Mary M. does not know what has happened before she tells Peter. So in Luke, Peter goes to the tomb with the knowledge that angels said Jesus has risen, but has no knowledge in John.
7) No mention in Matthew about any of the disciples going to the tomb at all but only finding out about Jesus from the women and then meeting him in Galilee.You asked if I was going to be addressing the contradictions. I suppose you mean the list above of non-contradictions.
Quote 1) Matthew has guards, an earthquake, and the women meeting the angel outside of the tomb. The guards and women are scared by the angel and the earthquake. The other gospels do not have these things
What does this contradict? Do the other gospels specifically say “these things” never happened? Do they in any way contradict the fact that there was an earthquake for instance? Do any of the other gospels say: “There was no earthquake.” Because if not, this is a case of one gospel including details others don't. NO CONTRADICTION.Quote 2) Mark has the women leaving, saying nothing to anyone.
Not sure what you're referring to. “and they returned from the memorial tomb and reported all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.” (Mark 24:9)Quote 3) Women, including Mary M. meet Jesus on the way to either Galilee or the disciples in Matthew. No mention in Mark or Luke.
Again, another case of more information provided in some of the accounts. NOT CONTRADICTIONS in any sense of the word.Quote 3 In John, Mary M. meets Jesus in the tomb, not on the way back.
Well, not “in the tomb.” We're told she was “stooping” forward to look in the tomb. We're told she “turned back” and saw Jesus. So he wasn't “in the tomb,” as you say.
“So, quickly leaving the memorial tomb, with fear and great joy, they ran to report to his disciples. And, look! Jesus met them and said: “Good day!” They approached and caught him by his feet and did obeisance to him.” (Mat 28:8,9)
And John says: “After saying these things, she turned back and viewed Jesus standing, but she did not discern it was Jesus.”So in Matthew we have her “leaving the Memorial tomb” and “look Jesus met them.”
And in John, “she turned back and viewed Jesus…but she did not discern it was” him.
Is this a contradiction. No. If so, why?Quote 4) In Matthew, disciples are to meet in Galilee, in Luke they meet in Jerusalem
Ok, in Luke we have those two traveling on the road away from “Jerusalem.”
And in Matthew, we have the angel telling Mary: “he is going ahead of YOU into Gal′i·lee; there YOU will see him. Look! I have told YOU.” And “, report to my brothers, that they may go off into Gal′i·lee; and there they will see me.””
How is this a contradiction? Please explain. The angel told her to tell them to go to Galillee where they would see him. And in Luke, we have two who did see him while on their way from Jerusalem.
And the contradiction is what, exactly? NO CONTRADICTION.
(I know you dearly want these to be contradictions, but they are not.)Quote 5) One angel outside in Matthew, one inside in Mark, two inside in Luke and John.
Which of the gospels says: “There was only one angel present in this account”? None of the gospels says there was “only one angel.” Clearly there were two. If two angels appeared to a bunch of people and one of them spoke, some of those who retold what happened would simply say: “An angel spoke” not mentioning the second angel. This is not a contradiction. It would be a contradiction if one account said: 'There was only one angel.' NO CONTRADICTION. Just some people recording more details, yet again.Quote 6) Mary M. tells Peter about the encounter with angels and he goes to the tomb in Luke. In John, Mary M. does not know what has happened before she tells Peter. So in Luke, Peter goes to the tomb with the knowledge that angels said Jesus has risen, but has no knowledge in John.
Ok, I think I tried to explain this to you several times. Peter obviously went to the tomb twice. The first time to go see what Mary had said, about the tomb being empty. The second time, after being told about the angels, he ran off to the tomb again. Yes, most of the gospels don't include him running the first time. (It's inconsequential.) But it wasn't to John, because he most likely was the second runner, the faster runner, the un-named runner. NO CONTRADICTION. (Please go back and read my previous posts on this.)Quote 7) No mention in Matthew about any of the disciples going to the tomb at all but only finding out about Jesus from the women and then meeting him in Galilee.
Right, Matthew leaves out a lot of the details, only recording what was needed. Where is the contradiction? A contradiction is when two things contradict each other. NO CONTRADICTION.I feel a little awkward going over this, but:
Contradiction:
(logic) a statement that is necessarily false; “the statement `he is brave and he is not brave' is a contradiction”None of the statements that you consider contradictions are necessarily false. They are largely simply statements not mentioned by others.
david
Quote If you look at the original text it is yet another instance of moshiach or 'anointed'. There was to be nothing particularly special about the moshiach of this time. [Daniel 9] He was not THE Messiah. Many kings and priests were called 'moshiach' in the Jewish scriptures. Let's look at the account:
How did this Messiah “terminate transgression” in your opinion? How did he “finish off sin” and “make attonement for error”? Why is he called “messiah the leader” and which Messiah is it talking about then, that was “cut off” at this time?
DANIEL 9:24-27
““There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·si′ah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times. “And after the sixty-two weeks Mes·si′ah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. “And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate.””Quote No contradictions? Surely you jest. I don't have time but I can find many for you. OK, show me where the Hebrew scriptures contradict each other.
And then, go on to explain what this means–apparently that they are not inspired of God, that nothing in them can be trustworthy, and that, much like everything you say about Jesus, you might as well say about the Hebrew scriptures.
david
Quote Because the contradiction found in the Jewish scriptures are likely copying errors. The contradictions found in the Christian bible are due to the gross incompetence (or intentionality) of the writers. I have listed the contradictions in the resurrection and you've yet to address them. OK, I've addressed them again. They aren't contradictions. Please do line up the accounts. Print them out. Cut each sentence out. Match it up with the other accounts. Realize that not all the gospel writers recorded the same details, but that the details do not contradict each other.
The copyists of the Hebrew scriptures made very few copying errors. They counted each letter, if I remember correctly.
Quote Why should it? G-d is G-d. Man made the mistakes, not G-d. But G-d was not responsible for the mish mash that is the New testament. OK, I now understand what you're saying. Disregard my other comments about the Hebrew scriptures not/contradicting each other.
You know what, you like quoting Daniel and from the Hebrew scriptures. Let's converse on that.
Dan 2:44 speaks of God's Kingdom destroying human kingdoms. What do you make of that?
Do you hold that this kingdom is a goverment?Quote Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. Still, this kingdom must be given to him who has the legal right:
EZEKIEL 21:26-27
“this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no [one’s] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.’”DANIEL 4:17
“By the decree of watchers the thing is, and [by] the saying of holy ones the request is, to the intent that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind.””
(Jesus was made the lowliest.)DANIEL 4:25
“….until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it.”DANIEL 7:14
“And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.”PSALM 2:6
“[Saying:] “I, even I, have installed my king Upon Zion, my holy mountain.””PSALM 8:6
“You make him dominate over the works of your hands; Everything you have put under his feet:”PSALM 89:27
“Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn, The most high of the kings of the earth.”PSALM 110:2
“The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:] “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.””ISAIAH 9:6
“For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”Yes, there are co-rulers with Christ as you have aptly discerned.
DANIEL 7:14
“And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.”Quote Wherever do you get the erroneous idea that the 'son of man' is the Moshiach? Because Jesus calls himself 'Son of man'? The prophecy of the coming of the Son of man into the presence of the Ancient of Days, Jehovah God, clearly applies to an individual, the Messiah, Jesus Christ.
The evidence is that it was so understood by the Jewish people.
Rabbinic writings applied the prophecy to the Messiah. (Soncino Books of the Bible, edited by A. Cohen, 1951, commentary on Da 7:13)
Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2007,21:28) You asked if I was going to be addressing the contradictions. I suppose you mean the list above of non-contradictions. Quote 1) Matthew has guards, an earthquake, and the women meeting the angel outside of the tomb. The guards and women are scared by the angel and the earthquake. The other gospels do not have these things
What does this contradict? Do the other gospels specifically say “these things” never happened? Do they in any way contradict the fact that there was an earthquake for instance? Do any of the other gospels say: “There was no earthquake.” Because if not, this is a case of one gospel including details others don't. NO CONTRADICTION.—smacking forehead—
Not the 'they didn't say it didn't happen' argument! I was wondering when this ploy would be used. It is an act of desperation when you've reached this point. By you same logic Jesus never says he is not the a person of a triune god nor does he ever ever say he is not santa claus.The fact is Matthew includes an earthquake, guards, and the angel on the outside. This is NOT supported by the other gospels. Therefore contradiction no matter how you slice or dice it. Does not the Bible support the idea of at least two witnesses? Matthews account makes only one. Based upon this, the earthquake, guards and angel on the outside are therefore struck down as evidence.
Quote Quote 2) Mark has the women leaving, saying nothing to anyone.
Not sure what you're referring to. “and they returned from the memorial tomb and reported all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.” (Mark 24:9)
The verses beyond verse 8 of Mark 16 are spurious additions and are not found in the earliest manuscripts. Therefore anything beyond verse 8 is struck down as evidence.Quote Quote 3) Women, including Mary M. meet Jesus on the way to either Galilee or the disciples in Matthew. No mention in Mark or Luke.
Again, another case of more information provided in some of the accounts. NOT CONTRADICTIONS in any sense of the word.
Yes, contradiction because John says Mary M. met Jesus while still in the tomb, not on the way to Galilee.Quote Quote 3 In John, Mary M. meets Jesus in the tomb, not on the way back.
Well, not “in the tomb.” We're told she was “stooping” forward to look in the tomb. We're told she “turned back” and saw Jesus. So he wasn't “in the tomb,” as you say.“So, quickly leaving the memorial tomb, with fear and great joy, they ran to report to his disciples. And, look! Jesus met them and said: “Good day!” They approached and caught him by his feet and did obeisance to him.” (Mat 28:8,9)
And John says: “After saying these things, she turned back and viewed Jesus standing, but she did not discern it was Jesus.”
So turning around (without leaving) and meeting Jesus on the way are the same to you? OK. I understand you have to cling to your beliefs.Quote So in Matthew we have her “leaving the Memorial tomb” and “look Jesus met them.”
And in John, “she turned back and viewed Jesus…but she did not discern it was” him.
Is this a contradiction. No. If so, why?
One is meeting them on the way back (Matthew) and the other is merely turning around and seeing him (John). But here's where the contradiction starts.Luk 24:10 Now it was Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told these things to the apostles,
What 'things' did they tell the apostles?
————————
Luk 24:4 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel.
Luk 24:5 And as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead?
Luk 24:6 He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee,
Luk 24:7 that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise.”
Luk 24:8 And they remembered his words,
Luk 24:9 and returning from the tomb they told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.
————————Note here that Mary M. was included in the group that told of the encounter with the angels. It was upon this report that Peter went to the tomb. But according to John, Mary M. went to Peter BEFORE she encountered the angels. She did not encounter the angels until after Peter had left the tomb in John but before Peter wen to the tomb in Luke. CONTRADICTION.
Quote Quote 4) In Matthew, disciples are to meet in Galilee, in Luke they meet in Jerusalem
Ok, in Luke we have those two traveling on the road away from “Jerusalem.”
And in Matthew, we have the angel telling Mary: “he is going ahead of YOU into Gal′i·lee; there YOU will see him. Look! I have told YOU.” And “, report to my brothers, that they may go off into Gal′i·lee; and there they will see me.””
How is this a contradiction? Please explain. The angel told her to tell them to go to Galillee where they would see him. And in Luke, we have two who did see him while on their way from Jerusalem.
And the contradiction is what, exactly? NO CONTRADICTION.
(I know you dearly want these to be contradictions, but they are not.)
The distance from Jerusalem to Galilee was app. 120 miles. Go figure.Quote Quote 5) One angel outside in Matthew, one inside in Mark, two inside in Luke and John.
Which of the gospels says: “There was only one angel present in this account”? None of the gospels says there was “only one angel.” Clearly there were two. If two angels appeared to a bunch of people and one of them spoke, some of those who retold what happened would simply say: “An angel spoke” not mentioning the second angel. This is not a contradiction. It would be a contradiction if one account said: 'There was only one angel.' NO CONTRADICTION. Just some people recording more details, yet again.
See above. Just how many angels were there then? One outside and two inside? Or one outside and one inside with one invisible one? CONTRADICTION
.Quote Quote 6) Mary M. tells Peter about the encounter with angels and he goes to the tomb in Luke. In John, Mary M. does not know what has happened before she tells Peter. So in Luke, Peter goes to the tomb with the knowledge that angels said Jesus has risen, but has no knowledge in John.
Ok, I think I tried to explain this to you several times. Peter obviously went to the tomb twice.
STOP. This is blatant apologetics. You are trying to explain away the discrepancies now. You are over the cliff and hanging by a thin wet root.Quote The first time to go see what Mary had said, about the tomb being empty. The second time, after being told about the angels, he ran off to the tomb again. Yes, most of the gospels don't include him running the first time. (It's inconsequential.)
Is it? Only for those who HAVE to believe in the reconciling the abundance of errors.Quote But it wasn't to John, because he most likely was the second runner, the faster runner, the un-named runner. NO CONTRADICTION. (Please go back and read my previous posts on this.)
I already read them and they were as weak in explaining away the discrepancies as this.Quote Quote 7) No mention in Matthew about any of the disciples going to the tomb at all but only finding out about Jesus from the women and then meeting him in Galilee.
Right, Matthew leaves out a lot of the details, only recording what was needed. Where is the contradiction? A contradiction is when two things contradict each other. NO CONTRADICTION.
True but leaving out does not help the story either. So I'll give you 'no contradiction'.Quote I feel a little awkward going over this, but: Contradiction:
(logic) a statement that is necessarily false; “the statement `he is brave and he is not brave' is a contradiction”
You have only succeeded in showing that one of these was not a contradiction. I would feel awkward at this point too with that kind of batting average.Quote None of the statements that you consider contradictions are necessarily false. They are largely simply statements not mentioned by others. david
Sorry but only one was shown not to be a contradiction. Oh yes unless you consider the blatant absence of pertinent information.Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2007,21:36) Quote No contradictions? Surely you jest. I don't have time but I can find many for you. OK, show me where the Hebrew scriptures contradict each other.
And then, go on to explain what this means–apparently that they are not inspired of God, that nothing in them can be trustworthy, and that, much like everything you say about Jesus, you might as well say about the Hebrew scriptures.
david
The contradictions in the Tanakh are of inconsequential nature. Stuff like age disagreements, lineage errors that are later corrected, etc. Most can be reconciled nicely but that does not eliminate their existence.The errors of the Christian bible are of a much larger scale however. As you can see I'm showing where Matthew is chock full of errors and I am only in the second chapter!
The errors of the Tanakh are likely copyist errors and do not hinder inspiration. The errors of the Christian bible come from writers who were obviously very poorly learned in the Jewish scriptures. Unless of course my theory about them intentionally making errors is correct.
The Tanakh deals with national revelation (Israel) while the Christian bible deals with individual or small group revelation (Jesus and a few others).
Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2007,21:39) Quote Because the contradiction found in the Jewish scriptures are likely copying errors. The contradictions found in the Christian bible are due to the gross incompetence (or intentionality) of the writers. I have listed the contradictions in the resurrection and you've yet to address them. OK, I've addressed them again. They aren't contradictions. Please do line up the accounts. Print them out. Cut each sentence out. Match it up with the other accounts. Realize that not all the gospel writers recorded the same details, but that the details do not contradict each other.
The copyists of the Hebrew scriptures made very few copying errors. They counted each letter, if I remember correctly.
But there is still the chance for error. They were human as you and I are. Those errors do not even equate to the type of errors made in the Christian bible.Quote Not the 'they didn't say it didn't happen' argument! I was wondering when this ploy would be used. It's extraordinarily odd that you were “wondering” when this argument was going to happen, as I've mentioned it twice before with reference to your #1.
Quote By you same logic Jesus never says he is not the a person of a triune god nor does he ever ever say he is not santa claus. I think your mixed up. I'm not talking about proving a negative.
I'm saying that not everyone records all the details.
Here's a list of things that happen:
1.George goes to see the dentist.
2. George gets a tooth removed.
3. george pays for this.
4. George goes home.If someone is telling this fascinating story, not everyone will include the fact that he payed for it, obviously.
david
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