Jesus, THE Messiah?

[david]

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Anyone notice a problem with this verse? Other than the fact that it is not supported in the gospel accounts? Paul says Jesus appeared to 'the twelve'. When Jesus was resurrected there was only 11 apostles! The 12th after Judas was not chosen until after Jesus ascended. So Paul has no clue, he is going by oral legend. Maybe he doesn't even know about Judas!

We notice in many accounts that after time, the “twelve apostles” simply became known as “the twelve.” They started out being called the twelve disciples, but it seems that they became known as a group and were often called simply: “the twelve,” as a group.

I went through and looked at this. The first few times they are mentioned, it is as the twelve “disciples.” After that, they are about 25 times referred to simply as a group, as “the twelve.”

Being specific, there were then only “eleven apostles” that had originally been designated and sent forth by Jesus.—Luke 6:13-16.

It is normal to speak of a group collectively even if one member is absent. (“The board of directors decided . . . ” “The body of elders met . . . ”) So the term “the twelve” may well have been used in reference to the whole group of apostles, even if one or two were absent on an occasion. (Compare Acts 6:1-6.) When Jesus first appeared to the disciples in a locked room, “Thomas, one of the twelve, . . . was not with them.” Eight days later he was present and had any uncertainty settled. (John 20:19-29) Though Matthias had not then been designated to replace Judas, he was a longtime disciple. (Acts 1:21, 22) Since he was closely associated with the original apostles and shortly thereafter was “reckoned along with” them, the retrospective comment about Jesus’ appearance to “the twelve” likely included Matthias.

david

[david]

Towshab, you apparently are having trouble with the idea of what “contradictions” actually are. For example, before, you stated:

here are the glaring contradictions
1) Matthew has guards, an earthquake, and the women meeting the angel outside of the tomb. The guards and women are scared by the angel and the earthquake. THE OTHER GOSPELS DO NOT HAVE THESE THINGS.

Similarly, we are told that: “he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve.” (1 cor 15:5)

So you look back at luke and see that similarly, we are told: “The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.” (Luke 24:34)

Yet, it appears we aren't specifically told in Luke the actual event of that happening.
Sometime prior to his appearing to the disciples as a group, Jesus appeared to Peter. We have confirmation of this at 1 Cor 15:5.

We are told that it was early morning when this all began.
In LUKE 24:12-34, we are told that yes, Peter found the tomb empty.
Then we're told that on that same day, Jesus met two people (Cleopas and someone un-named) and as they were walking, it became evening.
So, between evening and the morning, Jesus could have appeared to Peter (or Cephas) just as he appeared to these two.

We don't know what happened during that day. Apparently, at some point, Jesus appeared to Peter. Peter may have told the apostles this, yet they may have still found it hard to believe, not understanding.

We remember them
“telling the apostles these things. However, these sayings appeared as nonsense to them and they would not believe the [women].”

Peter's words to them may have been hard to grasp or fully understand as well. Yes, they should have believed Peter if he said that, but this was a truly shocking event.
So they confirmed what Peter may have told them.

“For a fact the Lord was raised up and he appeared to Simon!””

According to Jesus own words in this account, some who knew Jesus still didn't get it: “O senseless ones and slow in heart to believe on all the things the prophets spoke! Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into his glory?”

So for the apostles themselves to be “slow in heart” as well is possible.

Or, possibly, the apostles did believe Peter and it was these two that didn't, and they were so overjoyed, they had to go tell the apostles. They (these two) may have heard word earlier that Jesus appeared to Simon, but not believed it. So they later said:
“For a fact the Lord was raised up and he appeared to Simon!””

Anyway, this, like many of your claims isn't really a contradiction.

Again, if these events happen:
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10

And one person lists these events:
1,2,3,5,8,9,10

and someone else lists what they recall:
1,3,4,5,6,7,8,9

and someone else lists:
1,6,8,10,

this doesnt make a contradiction.

It tells us that certain ones didn't record certain details.

A contradiction is when two things contradict each other.

david

[david]

Just adding to the fact that certain prophecies about the Messiah were not understood, even by Jesus’ disciples, and hence the trouble in believing or understanding that Jesus was gone:

ISAIAH 53:3
“He was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for having acquaintance with sickness. And there was as if the concealing of one’s face from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no account.”

ISAIAH 53:5
“But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was upon him, and because of his wounds there has been a healing for us.”

ISAIAH 53:12
“For that reason I shall deal him a portion among the many, and it will be with the mighty ones that he will apportion the spoil, due to the fact that he poured out his soul to the very death, and it was with the transgressors that he was counted in; and he himself carried the very sin of many people, and for the transgressors he proceeded to interpose.”

PSALM 16:10
“For you will not leave my soul in She′ol. You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit.”

MATTHEW 16:21-23
“From that time forward Jesus Christ commenced showing his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the older men and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised up. At this Peter took him aside and commenced rebuking him, saying: “Be kind to yourself, Lord; you will not have this [destiny] at all.” But, turning his back, he said to Peter: “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.””

MATTHEW 17:22-23
“It was while they were gathered together in Gal′i·lee that Jesus said to them: “The Son of man is destined to be betrayed into men’s hands, and they will kill him, and the third day he will be raised up.” Consequently they were very much grieved.”

LUKE 24:21
“But we were hoping that this [man] was the one destined to deliver Israel; yes, and besides all these things, this makes the third day since these things occurred.”

JOHN 12:34
“Therefore the crowd answered him: “We heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever; and how is it you say that the Son of man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of man?””

JOHN 20:9
“For they did not yet discern the scripture that he must rise from the dead.”

[david]

Jewish sources agree with Luke 2:38 that the people at that time were waiting for Jerusalem’s deliverance.

The Jewish Encyclopedia observes: “They yearned for the promised deliverer of the house of David, who would free them from the yoke of the hated foreign usurper, would put an end to the impious Roman rule, and would establish His own reign of peace.” (1976, Vol. VIII, p. 508)

They tried to make him an earthly king. (Joh 6:15) When he would not fulfill their expectations, they rejected him.

Towshab, in your opinion, were the Jews back then “in expectation” of the messiah, and if so, why? If not, then when is he to come?

[david]

Some “contradictions” arise when we have two or more accounts of the same incident. For example, at Matthew 8:5 we read that when Jesus came into Capernaum, “an army officer came to him, entreating him,” asking Jesus to cure his manservant. But at Luke 7:3, we read of this army officer that “he sent forth older men of the Jews to him to ask [Jesus] to come and bring his slave safely through.” Did the army officer speak to Jesus, or did he send the older men?

The answer is, clearly, that the man sent the elders of the Jews. Why, then, does Matthew say that the man himself entreated Jesus? Because, in effect, the man asked Jesus through the Jewish elders. The elders served as his mouthpiece.

To illustrate this, at 2 Chronicles 3:1, we read: “Finally Solomon started to build the house of Jehovah in Jerusalem.” Later, we read: “Thus Solomon finished the house of Jehovah.” (2 Chronicles 7:11) Did Solomon personally build the temple from start to finish? Of course not. The actual building work was done by a multitude of craftsmen and laborers. But Solomon was the organizer of the work, the one responsible. Hence, the Bible says that he built the house. In the same way, Matthew’s Gospel tells us that the military commander approached Jesus. But Luke gives the added detail that he approached him through the Jewish elders.

Here is a similar example. At Matthew 20:20, 21, we read: “The mother of the sons of Zebedee approached [Jesus] with her sons, doing obeisance and asking for something from him.” What she asked was that her sons should have the most favored position when Jesus came into his Kingdom. In Mark’s account of this same event, we read: “James and John, the two sons of Zebedee, stepped up to [Jesus] and said to him: ‘Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever it is we ask you for.’” (Mark 10:35-37) Was it the two sons of Zebedee, or was it their mother, who made the request of Jesus?

Clearly, it was the two sons of Zebedee who made the request, as Mark states. But they made it through their mother. She was their spokesperson. This is supported by Matthew’s report that when the other apostles heard what the mother of the sons of Zebedee had done, they became indignant, not at the mother, but “at the two brothers.”—Matthew 20:24.

Have you ever heard two people describe an event that they both witnessed? If so, did you notice that each person emphasized details that impressed him? One may have left out things that the other included. Both, however, were telling the truth. It is the same with the four Gospel accounts of Jesus’ ministry, as well as with other historical events reported by more than one Bible writer. Each writer wrote accurate information even when one retained details that another omitted. By considering all the accounts, a fuller understanding of what happened can be gained. Such variations prove that the Bible accounts are independent. And their essential harmony proves that they are true.–God's Word or Man's, page 87

Just as there are at first apparent contradictions in the Greek scriptures, there are also apparent contradictions in the Hebrew scriptures. The old “where did Cain get his wife from” question, which is of course no contradiction at all, is often cited.
The solution lies in the fact that Adam and Eve had more than two children. According to the context, they had a large family. At Genesis 5:3 we read that Adam became father to another son named Seth and then, in the following verse, we read: “He became father to sons and daughters.” (Genesis 5:4) So Cain could have married one of his sisters or even one of his nieces. At that early stage of human history, when mankind was so close to perfection, such a marriage evidently did not pose the risks for the children of the union that it would today.

Yet, if we just read the actual account of Cain, it might at first SEEM like it doesn't make sense. Something not making sense isn't actually a contradiction. We're just missing some of the information. No two pieces of information actually contradict each other.

[david]

different viewpoints is one reason for apparent contradictions.

Here's one from the Hebrew scriptures:

Sometimes the Bible writers wrote about the same event from different viewpoints, or they presented their accounts in different ways. When these differences are taken into consideration, further apparent contradictions are easy to resolve. An example of this is in Numbers 35:14, where Moses speaks of the territory east of the Jordan as “on this side of the Jordan.” Joshua, however, speaking of land to the east of the Jordan, called it “the other side of the Jordan.” (Joshua 22:4) Which is correct?

Of course, both are correct. I'll let you figure out why for yourself.

Additionally, the way a narrative is constructed can lead to an apparent contradiction.
Here's one I've heard a few times:

At Genesis 1:24-26, the Bible indicates that the animals were created before man. But at Genesis 2:7, 19, 20, it seems to say that man was created before the animals. Why the discrepancy? Because the two accounts of the creation discuss it from two different viewpoints. The first describes the creation of the heavens and the earth and everything in them. (Genesis 1:1–2:4) The second concentrates on the creation of the human race and its fall into sin.—Genesis 2:5–4:26.

The first account is constructed chronologically, divided into six consecutive “days.” The second is written in order of topical importance. After a short prologue, it logically goes straight to the creation of Adam, since he and his family are the subject of what follows. (Genesis 2:7)

Sometimes, we just have to Read the Account Carefully

This is the case when we consider the conquest of Jerusalem by the Israelites. Jerusalem was listed as part of the inheritance of Benjamin, but we read that Benjamin’s tribe was unable to conquer it. (Joshua 18:28; Judges 1:21) We also read that Judah was unable to conquer Jerusalem—as if it were part of that tribe’s inheritance. Eventually, Judah defeated Jerusalem, burning it with fire. (Joshua 15:63; Judges 1:8) Hundreds of years later, however, David is also recorded as conquering Jerusalem.—2 Samuel 5:5-9.
At first glance, all of this might appear confusing, but there are in reality no contradictions. In fact, the boundary between Benjamin’s inheritance and Judah’s ran along the Valley of Hinnom, right through the ancient city of Jerusalem. What later came to be called the City of David actually lay in the territory of Benjamin, just as Joshua 18:28 says. But it is likely that the Jebusite city of Jerusalem spilled across the Valley of Hinnom and thus overlapped into Judah’s territory, so that Judah, too, had to war against its Canaanite inhabitants.
Benjamin was unable to conquer the city. On one occasion, Judah did conquer Jerusalem and burn it. (Judges 1:8, 9) But Judah’s forces evidently moved on, and some of the original inhabitants regained possession of the city. Later, they formed a pocket of resistance that neither Judah nor Benjamin could remove. Thus, the Jebusites continued in Jerusalem until David conquered the city hundreds of years later.

Proof of Independence
True, there are some apparent inconsistencies in the Bible that are difficult to reconcile. But we should not assume that they are definite contradictions. . Often it is merely a case of lack of complete information. : “There are, in fact, many other things also which Jesus did, which, if ever they were written in full detail, I suppose, the world itself could not contain the scrolls written.” (John 21:25) It would be even more of an impossibility to record all the details of the long history of God’s people from the patriarchs to the first-century Christian congregation!

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Towshab @ Oct. 29 2007,15:08)

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 28 2007,21:25) Towshab, my reply is getting off the discussions subject to some degree, so I will reply to your post in a more appropriate discussion. https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….ry80843 Hi T8, Your link is broken.

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….5;st=20

[Morningstar]

According to the Hebrew scriptures, the Messiah must meet the following conditions:

1 – Be the “seed of the woman” that would bruise the serpent's heel (Genesis 3:15, Galations 4:4, 1 John 3:8)

2 – Be the “seed of Abraham” (Genesis 12:3, Matthew 1:1, Acts 3:25, 18:18,22,18, Gal. 3:16).

3 – Be the “seed of Isaac” (Genesis 17:19, 21:12, Matthew 1:2, Luke 3:34, Heb. 11:17-19)

4 – Be the “seed of Jacob” and the “star out of Jacob” who will “have dominion” (Genesis 28:14, Nu. 24:17,19, Matthew 1:2, Luke 3:34, Rev. 22:16)

5 – Be a descendant of Judah (Genesis 49:10, Matthew 1:2-3, Luke 3:33, Heb. 7:14)

6 – Be a descendant of David and heir to his throne (2 Sam. 7:12-13, Isaiah 9:6(7), 11:1-5, Jeremiah 23:5, Matthew 1:1,6, Acts 11:23, Romans 1:4)

7 – Be the Son of God (Psalms 2:7, Proverbs 30:4, Matthew 3:17, Luke 1:32)

8 – Have God's own name, YHVH applied to him (Isaiah 9:5-6(6-7), Jere.23:5-6, Romans 10:9, Phil. 2:9-11)

9 – Come at a specific time, 483 yrs.after the rebuilding of the wall of Jerusalem (Daniel 9:24-26, Matthew 2:1,16,19, Luke 3:1,23)

10 – Be born in Bethlehem, in Judah (Micah 5:1(2), Matthew 2:1, Lk.2:4-7)

11 – Be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18-2:1, Luke 1:26-35)

12 – Be adored by great persons (Psalms 72:10-11, Matthew 2:1-11)

13 – Be preceded by one who would anounce him (Isaiah 40:3-5, Malachi 3:1, Matthew 3:1-3, Lk.1:17,3:2-6)

14 – Be a prophet like Moses (Deut. 18:15,18, Acts 3:20-22)

15 – Have a ministry of binding up the brokenhearted, proclaiming liberty to the captives and announcing the acceptable year of the Lord (Isaiah 61:1-2, Luke 4:18-19)

16 – Have a ministry of healing (Isaiah 35:5-6, 42:18, Matthew 11:5)

17 – Have a ministry in the Galilee (Isaiah 8:23-9:1(9:1-2), Matthew 4:12-16)

18 – Be tender and compassionate (Isaiah 40:11, 42:3, Matthew 12:15,20, Hebrews 4:15)

19 – Be meek and unostentatious (Isaiah 42:2, Matthew 12:15-16,19)

20 – Be sinless and without guile (Isaiah 53:9, 1 Peter 2:22)

21 – Bear the reproaches due others (Psalms 69:10, Isaiah 53:12, Romans 15:3)

22 – Be a priest (Psalms 110:4, Heb. 5:5-6, 6:20, 7:15-17)

23 – Enter publicly into Jerusalem on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9, Matthew 21:1-11, Mark 11:1-11)

24 – Enter the Temple with authority (Haggai 2:7-9, Malachi 3:1, Matthew 21:12-24, Lk. 2:27-38,45-50, John 2:13-22)

25 – Be hated without cause (Ps. 69:5(4), Isaiah 49:7, Jn. 7:48,15:24-25)

26 – Be undesired and rejected by his own people Psalms 69:9(8), Is. 53:2,63:3, Mark 6:3, Luke 9:58, Jn 1:11,7:3-5)

27 – Be rejected by the Jewish leadership (Psalms 118:22, Matthew 21:42, John 7:48)

28 – Be plotted against by Jews and Gentiles together (Psalms 2:1-2, Acts 4:27)

29 – Be betrayed by a friend (Psalms 41:9, Matthew26:21-25,47,50,55, John 13:18-21, Acts 1:16-18)

30 – Be sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12, Matthew 26:15)

31 – Have his price given for a potters field (Zechariah 11:13, Matthew 27:7)

32 – Be forsaken by his disciples (Zechariah 13:7, Matthew 26:31,56)

33 – Be struck on the cheek (Micah 4:14;5:1, Matthew 27:30)

34 – Be spat on (Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67, 27:30)

35 – Be mocked (Ps. 22:8-9(7-8), Matthew27:31,39-44,67-68)

36 – Be beaten (Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67, 27:26,30)

37 – Be executed by crucifixion, by having his hands and feet pierced (Ps. 22:17(16), Zech.12:10, Matthew27:35, Lk 24:39, Jn. 9:18,34-37,20:35, Rev. 1:7)

38 – Be thirsty during his execution (Ps. 22:16(15), John 19:28)

39 – Be given vinegar to quench that thirst (Ps. 69:22(21), Matthew 27:34)

40 – Be executed without having a bone broken (Exodus 12:46, Ps. 24:31(20), Jn. 19:33-36)

41 – Be considered a transgressor (Isaiah 53:12, Matthew 27:38)

42 – Be “cut off, but not for himself” (Daniel 9:24-26, Matthew 2:1, Luke 3:1,23)

43 – Be the one whose death would atone for the sins of mankind (Isaiah 53:5-7,12, Mark 10:45, John 1:29, 3:16, Acts 8:30-35)

44 – Be buried with the rich when dead (Isaiah 53:9, Matthew 27:57-60)

45 – Be raised from the dead (Ps. 2:7, 16:10, Isaiah 53:9-10, Matthew 28:1-20, Acts 2:23-36, 13:33-37, 1 Cor. 15:4-6)

46 – Ascend to the right hand of God (Psalms 16:11, 68:19(18), 110:1, Luke 24:51, Acts 1:9-11, 7:55, Hebrews 1:3)

47 – Exercise his priestly office in heaven (Zechariah 6:1, Romans 8:34, Heb. 7:25-8:2)

48 – Be the cornerstone of God's Messianic Believing Community: Psalms 118:22-23; Isaiah 28:16; Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-7

49 – Be sought after by Gentiles as well as Jews (Isaiah 11:10, 42:1, Acts 10:45)

50 – Be accepted by the Gentiles (Isaiah 11:10,42, 49:1-12, Matthew 12:21, Romans 15:1)

[kenrch]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 28 2007,19:24)

94, I was personally blessed by what you have shared.  I have believed all along that Jesus was not the result of a human sperm.  I'm not quite sure why folks want to believe that he is?  At any rate, thank you for bringing your understanding to the board.  It's helped me tremendously. Love to you and your family, Mandy

Neither was Adam  

[Not3in1]

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 30 2007,00:38)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 28 2007,19:24) 94, I was personally blessed by what you have shared.  I have believed all along that Jesus was not the result of a human sperm.  I'm not quite sure why folks want to believe that he is?  At any rate, thank you for bringing your understanding to the board.  It's helped me tremendously. Love to you and your family, Mandy Neither was Adam

Ken, good point!

However, what I really meant to say is that Jesus is not the result of common procreation. Adam was of the dirt and we follow him (Jesus did not follow him).

Adam was from the earth.
Jesus is from heaven.

But we've been through all this before, huh?

[942767]

Quote (Towshab @ Oct. 29 2007,16:25)

Quote (942767 @ Oct. 28 2007,23:05) Hi Towshab: It seems to me, knowing that there is no doubt that Jesus is the Messiah, that your time would better spent in studying to determine how God through the account of the virgin birth of His Son and his Christ kept his promise to David. God Bless Hi 942767, I'm afraid I do not follow. I do not believe any part of this statement. I do not believe in a virgin birth nor do I believe Jesus was the Messiah. Outside of Matthew and Luke, who else supports the idea of the virgin birth? Paul does not, he must not have even known about it. ——————– Rom 1:3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; Gal 4:4  But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, ——————– In fact had the virgin birth not been mentioned, Jesus would have had more of a case of having a legitimate genealogy. That is another reason I think Matthew (and maybe Luke) actually tried to show he wasn't the Messiah. They seemed to drop hints all over the place. Since Joseph was not his father according to Matthew and Luke he did not come from the seed of David through Solomon. Of course there are other issues with the genealogies outside of the virgin birth but it makes it even more impossible for Jesus.

Hi Towshab:

The very fact that there was a curse on Jeconiah and his seed perhaps indicates that God had an alternative means of keeping his promise to David, and this was through the virgin birth of Jesus.  

There are other reasons why the Messiah cannot be a man born of the sperm of man.

God Bless

[david]

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According to the Hebrew scriptures, the Messiah must meet the following conditions: 1 – Be the “seed of the woman” that would bruise the serpent's heel (Genesis 3:15, Galations 4:4, 1 John 3:8) 2 – Be the “seed of Abraham” (Genesis 12:3, Matthew 1:1, Acts 3:25, 18:18,22,18, Gal. 3:16). 3 – Be the “seed of Isaac” (Genesis 17:19, 21:12, Matthew 1:2, Luke 3:34, Heb. 11:17-19) 4 – Be the “seed of Jacob” and the “star out of Jacob” who will “have dominion” (Genesis 28:14, Nu. 24:17,19, Matthew 1:2, Luke 3:34, Rev. 22:16) 5 – Be a descendant of Judah (Genesis 49:10, Matthew 1:2-3, Luke 3:33, Heb. 7:14) 6 – Be a descendant of David and heir to his throne (2 Sam. 7:12-13, Isaiah 9:6(7), 11:1-5, Jeremiah 23:5, Matthew 1:1,6, Acts 11:23, Romans 1:4) 7 – Be the Son of God (Psalms 2:7, Proverbs 30:4, Matthew 3:17, Luke 1:32) 8 – Have God's own name, YHVH applied to him (Isaiah 9:5-6(6-7), Jere.23:5-6, Romans 10:9, Phil. 2:9-11) 9 – Come at a specific time, 483 yrs.after the rebuilding of the wall of Jerusalem (Daniel 9:24-26, Matthew 2:1,16,19, Luke 3:1,23) 10 – Be born in Bethlehem, in Judah (Micah 5:1(2), Matthew 2:1, Lk.2:4-7) 11 – Be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18-2:1, Luke 1:26-35) 12 – Be adored by great persons (Psalms 72:10-11, Matthew 2:1-11) 13 – Be preceded by one who would anounce him (Isaiah 40:3-5, Malachi 3:1, Matthew 3:1-3, Lk.1:17,3:2-6) 14 – Be a prophet like Moses (Deut. 18:15,18, Acts 3:20-22) 15 – Have a ministry of binding up the brokenhearted, proclaiming liberty to the captives and announcing the acceptable year of the Lord (Isaiah 61:1-2, Luke 4:18-19) 16 – Have a ministry of healing (Isaiah 35:5-6, 42:18, Matthew 11:5) 17 – Have a ministry in the Galilee (Isaiah 8:23-9:1(9:1-2), Matthew 4:12-16) 18 – Be tender and compassionate (Isaiah 40:11, 42:3, Matthew 12:15,20, Hebrews 4:15) 19 – Be meek and unostentatious (Isaiah 42:2, Matthew 12:15-16,19) 20 – Be sinless and without guile (Isaiah 53:9, 1 Peter 2:22) 21 – Bear the reproaches due others (Psalms 69:10, Isaiah 53:12, Romans 15:3) 22 – Be a priest (Psalms 110:4, Heb. 5:5-6, 6:20, 7:15-17) 23 – Enter publicly into Jerusalem on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9, Matthew 21:1-11, Mark 11:1-11) 24 – Enter the Temple with authority (Haggai 2:7-9, Malachi 3:1, Matthew 21:12-24, Lk. 2:27-38,45-50, John 2:13-22) 25 – Be hated without cause (Ps. 69:5(4), Isaiah 49:7, Jn. 7:48,15:24-25) 26 – Be undesired and rejected by his own people Psalms 69:9(8), Is. 53:2,63:3, Mark 6:3, Luke 9:58, Jn 1:11,7:3-5) 27 – Be rejected by the Jewish leadership (Psalms 118:22, Matthew 21:42, John 7:48) 28 – Be plotted against by Jews and Gentiles together (Psalms 2:1-2, Acts 4:27) 29 – Be betrayed by a friend (Psalms 41:9, Matthew26:21-25,47,50,55, John 13:18-21, Acts 1:16-18) 30 – Be sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12, Matthew 26:15) 31 – Have his price given for a potters field (Zechariah 11:13, Matthew 27:7) 32 – Be forsaken by his disciples (Zechariah 13:7, Matthew 26:31,56) 33 – Be struck on the cheek (Micah 4:14;5:1, Matthew 27:30) 34 – Be spat on (Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67, 27:30) 35 – Be mocked (Ps. 22:8-9(7-8), Matthew27:31,39-44,67-68) 36 – Be beaten (Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67, 27:26,30) 37 – Be executed by crucifixion, by having his hands and feet pierced (Ps. 22:17(16), Zech.12:10, Matthew27:35, Lk 24:39, Jn. 9:18,34-37,20:35, Rev. 1:7) 38 – Be thirsty during his execution (Ps. 22:16(15), John 19:28) 39 – Be given vinegar to quench that thirst (Ps. 69:22(21), Matthew 27:34) 40 – Be executed without having a bone broken (Exodus 12:46, Ps. 24:31(20), Jn. 19:33-36) 41 – Be considered a transgressor (Isaiah 53:12, Matthew 27:38) 42 – Be “cut off, but not for himself” (Daniel 9:24-26, Matthew 2:1, Luke 3:1,23) 43 – Be the one whose death would atone for the sins of mankind (Isaiah 53:5-7,12, Mark 10:45, John 1:29, 3:16, Acts 8:30-35) 44 – Be buried with the rich when dead (Isaiah 53:9, Matthew 27:57-60) 45 – Be raised from the dead (Ps. 2:7, 16:10, Isaiah 53:9-10, Matthew 28:1-20, Acts 2:23-36, 13:33-37, 1 Cor. 15:4-6) 46 – Ascend to the right hand of God (Psalms 16:11, 68:19(18), 110:1, Luke 24:51, Acts 1:9-11, 7:55, Hebrews 1:3) 47 – Exercise his priestly office in heaven (Zechariah 6:1, Romans 8:34, Heb. 7:25-8:2) 48 – Be the cornerstone of God's Messianic Believing Community: Psalms 118:22-23; Isaiah 28:16; Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-7 49 – Be sought after by Gentiles as well as Jews (Isaiah 11:10, 42:1, Acts 10:45) 50 – Be accepted by the Gentiles (Isaiah 11:10,42, 49:1-12, Matthew 12:21, Romans 15:1)

Morninstar, you beat me to this. I was going to post something similar. So, those who lived in that time could have easily pointed out that some of these things did not apply to jesus–If that were the case.

Jesus had enemies, to be certain. Yet, no one argued these things.

dvid

[Morningstar]

Quote (david @ Oct. 30 2007,11:18)

Quote According to the Hebrew scriptures, the Messiah must meet the following conditions: 1 – Be the “seed of the woman” that would bruise the serpent's heel (Genesis 3:15, Galations 4:4, 1 John 3:8) 2 – Be the “seed of Abraham” (Genesis 12:3, Matthew 1:1, Acts 3:25, 18:18,22,18, Gal. 3:16). 3 – Be the “seed of Isaac” (Genesis 17:19, 21:12, Matthew 1:2, Luke 3:34, Heb. 11:17-19) 4 – Be the “seed of Jacob” and the “star out of Jacob” who will “have dominion” (Genesis 28:14, Nu. 24:17,19, Matthew 1:2, Luke 3:34, Rev. 22:16) 5 – Be a descendant of Judah (Genesis 49:10, Matthew 1:2-3, Luke 3:33, Heb. 7:14) 6 – Be a descendant of David and heir to his throne (2 Sam. 7:12-13, Isaiah 9:6(7), 11:1-5, Jeremiah 23:5, Matthew 1:1,6, Acts 11:23, Romans 1:4) 7 – Be the Son of God (Psalms 2:7, Proverbs 30:4, Matthew 3:17, Luke 1:32) 8 – Have God's own name, YHVH applied to him (Isaiah 9:5-6(6-7), Jere.23:5-6, Romans 10:9, Phil. 2:9-11) 9 – Come at a specific time, 483 yrs.after the rebuilding of the wall of Jerusalem (Daniel 9:24-26, Matthew 2:1,16,19, Luke 3:1,23) 10 – Be born in Bethlehem, in Judah (Micah 5:1(2), Matthew 2:1, Lk.2:4-7) 11 – Be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18-2:1, Luke 1:26-35) 12 – Be adored by great persons (Psalms 72:10-11, Matthew 2:1-11) 13 – Be preceded by one who would anounce him (Isaiah 40:3-5, Malachi 3:1, Matthew 3:1-3, Lk.1:17,3:2-6) 14 – Be a prophet like Moses (Deut. 18:15,18, Acts 3:20-22) 15 – Have a ministry of binding up the brokenhearted, proclaiming liberty to the captives and announcing the acceptable year of the Lord (Isaiah 61:1-2, Luke 4:18-19) 16 – Have a ministry of healing (Isaiah 35:5-6, 42:18, Matthew 11:5) 17 – Have a ministry in the Galilee (Isaiah 8:23-9:1(9:1-2), Matthew 4:12-16) 18 – Be tender and compassionate (Isaiah 40:11, 42:3, Matthew 12:15,20, Hebrews 4:15) 19 – Be meek and unostentatious (Isaiah 42:2, Matthew 12:15-16,19) 20 – Be sinless and without guile (Isaiah 53:9, 1 Peter 2:22) 21 – Bear the reproaches due others (Psalms 69:10, Isaiah 53:12, Romans 15:3) 22 – Be a priest (Psalms 110:4, Heb. 5:5-6, 6:20, 7:15-17) 23 – Enter publicly into Jerusalem on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9, Matthew 21:1-11, Mark 11:1-11) 24 – Enter the Temple with authority (Haggai 2:7-9, Malachi 3:1, Matthew 21:12-24, Lk. 2:27-38,45-50, John 2:13-22) 25 – Be hated without cause (Ps. 69:5(4), Isaiah 49:7, Jn. 7:48,15:24-25) 26 – Be undesired and rejected by his own people Psalms 69:9(8), Is. 53:2,63:3, Mark 6:3, Luke 9:58, Jn 1:11,7:3-5) 27 – Be rejected by the Jewish leadership (Psalms 118:22, Matthew 21:42, John 7:48) 28 – Be plotted against by Jews and Gentiles together (Psalms 2:1-2, Acts 4:27) 29 – Be betrayed by a friend (Psalms 41:9, Matthew26:21-25,47,50,55, John 13:18-21, Acts 1:16-18) 30 – Be sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12, Matthew 26:15) 31 – Have his price given for a potters field (Zechariah 11:13, Matthew 27:7) 32 – Be forsaken by his disciples (Zechariah 13:7, Matthew 26:31,56) 33 – Be struck on the cheek (Micah 4:14;5:1, Matthew 27:30) 34 – Be spat on (Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67, 27:30) 35 – Be mocked (Ps. 22:8-9(7-8), Matthew27:31,39-44,67-68) 36 – Be beaten (Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67, 27:26,30) 37 – Be executed by crucifixion, by having his hands and feet pierced (Ps. 22:17(16), Zech.12:10, Matthew27:35, Lk 24:39, Jn. 9:18,34-37,20:35, Rev. 1:7) 38 – Be thirsty during his execution (Ps. 22:16(15), John 19:28) 39 – Be given vinegar to quench that thirst (Ps. 69:22(21), Matthew 27:34) 40 – Be executed without having a bone broken (Exodus 12:46, Ps. 24:31(20), Jn. 19:33-36) 41 – Be considered a transgressor (Isaiah 53:12, Matthew 27:38) 42 – Be “cut off, but not for himself” (Daniel 9:24-26, Matthew 2:1, Luke 3:1,23) 43 – Be the one whose death would atone for the sins of mankind (Isaiah 53:5-7,12, Mark 10:45, John 1:29, 3:16, Acts 8:30-35) 44 – Be buried with the rich when dead (Isaiah 53:9, Matthew 27:57-60) 45 – Be raised from the dead (Ps. 2:7, 16:10, Isaiah 53:9-10, Matthew 28:1-20, Acts 2:23-36, 13:33-37, 1 Cor. 15:4-6) 46 – Ascend to the right hand of God (Psalms 16:11, 68:19(18), 110:1, Luke 24:51, Acts 1:9-11, 7:55, Hebrews 1:3) 47 – Exercise his priestly office in heaven (Zechariah 6:1, Romans 8:34, Heb. 7:25-8:2) 48 – Be the cornerstone of God's Messianic Believing Community: Psalms 118:22-23; Isaiah 28:16; Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-7 49 – Be sought after by Gentiles as well as Jews (Isaiah 11:10, 42:1, Acts 10:45) 50 – Be accepted by the Gentiles (Isaiah 11:10,42, 49:1-12, Matthew 12:21, Romans 15:1) Morninstar, you beat me to this.  I was going to post something similar.  So, those who lived in that time could have easily pointed out that some of these things did not apply to jesus–If that were the case. Jesus had enemies, to be certain.  Yet, no one argued these things. dvid

The fact that Gentiles embraced Christ, even consindering the eventual colapse of orthadoxy and the development of doctrines of men, carries a lot of weight in my opinion.

Even the book of Enoch prophesied the Gentiles excepting the preexistent Christ whom the book over and over calls the “son of man”.

These types of fulfillments can't be hoaxed (as critics often try to accuse the apostles of doing) and are powerful witnesses.

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2007,00:57)

Quote Anyone notice a problem with this verse? Other than the fact that it is not supported in the gospel accounts? Paul says Jesus appeared to 'the twelve'. When Jesus was resurrected there was only 11 apostles! The 12th after Judas was not chosen until after Jesus ascended. So Paul has no clue, he is going by oral legend. Maybe he doesn't even know about Judas! We notice in many accounts that after time, the “twelve apostles” simply became known as “the twelve.” They started out being called the twelve disciples, but it seems that they became known as a group and were often called simply: “the twelve,” as a group. I went through and looked at this. The first few times they are mentioned, it is as the twelve “disciples.” After that, they are about 25 times referred to simply as a group, as “the twelve.” Being specific, there were then only “eleven apostles” that had originally been designated and sent forth by Jesus.—Luke 6:13-16.

Really? From that passage
(1)Peter
(2)Andrew
(3)James
(4)John
(5)Philip
(6)Bartholomew
(7)Matthew
(8)Thomas
(9)James
(10)Simon called Zelotes
(11)Judas the brother of James
(12)Judas Iscariot

Twelve. Who did you skip?

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It is normal to speak of a group collectively even if one member is absent. (“The board of directors decided . . . ” “The body of elders met . . . ”) So the term “the twelve” may well have been used in reference to the whole group of apostles, even if one or two were absent on an occasion. (Compare Acts 6:1-6.) When Jesus first appeared to the disciples in a locked room, “Thomas, one of the twelve, . . . was not with them.”

But by the time of Acts 6, a replacement for Judas Iscariot had been chosen.

Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

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Eight days later he was present and had any uncertainty settled. (John 20:19-29) Though Matthias had not then been designated to replace Judas, he was a longtime disciple. (Acts 1:21, 22) Since he was closely associated with the original apostles and shortly thereafter was “reckoned along with” them, the retrospective comment about Jesus’ appearance to “the twelve” likely included Matthias.

Nice apologetics but he was not chosen to be the twelfth until Jesus left. Since Acts 1:21-26 speaks of choosing between two faithful followers the twelve is in reality thirteen if you use your logic.

The fact of the matter is that Paul was in error because he did not know. Paul had never walked with Jesus nor was he well liked by the Jewish apostles that had actually been with Jesus. If you really pay attention to what took place between Paul, James, and Peter you’d note there was no love lost between those three. But Paul had more success because he took the message to Gentiles who know little or nothing about Jewish scriptures. The Jewish Christian church literally died off because it was seen as nothing but a heretical sect of Judaism.

Most Christians today are the same. All they know is the Christian bible. When they do take the time to read the ‘old testament’, they do so using a Christian translation and interpret it with a Christian mindset. That is why so many Christians struggle with the ‘old testament’. It was never meant to be a Christian document.

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2007,01:45)

Towshab, you apparently are having trouble with the idea of what “contradictions” actually are. For example, before, you stated: here are the glaring contradictions 1) Matthew has guards, an earthquake, and the women meeting the angel outside of the tomb. The guards and women are scared by the angel and the earthquake. THE OTHER GOSPELS DO NOT HAVE THESE THINGS. Similarly, we are told that: “he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve.” (1 cor 15:5) So you look back at luke and see that similarly, we are told: “The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.” (Luke 24:34) Yet, it appears we aren't specifically told in Luke the actual event of that happening. Sometime prior to his appearing to the disciples as a group, Jesus appeared to Peter. We have confirmation of this at 1 Cor 15:5. We are told that it was early morning when this all began. In LUKE 24:12-34, we are told that yes, Peter found the tomb empty. Then we're told that on that same day, Jesus met two people (Cleopas and someone un-named) and as they were walking, it became evening. So, between evening and the morning, Jesus could have appeared to Peter (or Cephas) just as he appeared to these two.

But how would the two disciples that he met on the way know Jesus had appeared to Simon? How do we know that this Simon was not Simon the Zealot? Because these disciples get up after speaking with Jesus and come to the eleven and others and make the statement about Jesus appearing to Simon. Here is what these two said to Jesus when they met him

Luk 24:24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.

This verse is referring to Peter and possibly others. What does it say? ‘They saw him not’. So where would the get the information that Simon had seen Jesus when clearly all they knew was that no one had seen Jesus according to the Luke account. These men also said the women had seen angels but said nothing of seeing Jesus so again Jesus has not appeared to anyone at this point except these two (Cleopas and the other).

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We don't know what happened during that day. Apparently, at some point, Jesus appeared to Peter. Peter may have told the apostles this, yet they may have still found it hard to believe, not understanding.

But how would Cleopas and the other know this because they left from meeting with Jesus to come to the eleven. Perhaps Jesus told them but that is not recorded either because it say that he taught them scripture.

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We remember them “telling the apostles these things. However, these sayings appeared as nonsense to them and they would not believe the [women].” Peter's words to them may have been hard to grasp or fully understand as well. Yes, they should have believed Peter if he said that, but this was a truly shocking event. So they confirmed what Peter may have told them.

But when they spoke with Jesus, they said nothing to Jesus about anyone actually encountering Jesus personally. Only about the empty tomb and the angels.

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“For a fact the Lord was raised up and he appeared to Simon!””

Again, how did they know this because they did not seem to know it when they first encountered Jesus.

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According to Jesus own words in this account, some who knew Jesus still didn't get it: “O senseless ones and slow in heart to believe on all the things the prophets spoke! Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into his glory?” So for the apostles themselves to be “slow in heart” as well is possible. Or, possibly, the apostles did believe Peter and it was these two that didn't, and they were so overjoyed, they had to go tell the apostles. They (these two) may have heard word earlier that Jesus appeared to Simon, but not believed it. So they later said: “For a fact the Lord was raised up and he appeared to Simon!”” Anyway, this, like many of your claims isn't really a contradiction. Again, if these events happen: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 And one person lists these events: 1,2,3,5,8,9,10 and someone else lists what they recall: 1,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and someone else lists: 1,6,8,10, this doesnt make a contradiction. It tells us that certain ones didn't record certain details. A contradiction is when two things contradict each other. david

I have already shown the list of contradictions. They are indeed contradictions but your belief will not allow you to view them as such. Quite understandable I suppose. I can only show I cannot make you inderstand.

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2007,02:21)

Just adding to the fact that certain prophecies about the Messiah were not understood, even by Jesus’ disciples, and hence the trouble in believing or understanding that Jesus was gone: Quote ISAIAH 53:3 “He was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for having acquaintance with sickness. And there was as if the concealing of one’s face from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no account.” ISAIAH 53:5 “But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was upon him, and because of his wounds there has been a healing for us.” ISAIAH 53:12 “For that reason I shall deal him a portion among the many, and it will be with the mighty ones that he will apportion the spoil, due to the fact that he poured out his soul to the very death, and it was with the transgressors that he was counted in; and he himself carried the very sin of many people, and for the transgressors he proceeded to interpose.”

Ah, the ‘Suffering Servant’. Israel (Jacob), not Jesus. All you’d have to do is study Isaiah some more to grasp that reality.
——————–
Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Isa 44:1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:

Isa 44:21 Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me.

Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isa 48:20 Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth; say ye, The LORD hath redeemed his servant Jacob

Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
——————–
As you can see, Israel is Hashem’s servant. Is 52:13 again mentions G-d’s servant and by this time it is quite evident to any who this servant is because of the context of the book of Isaiah. It is not a man but a nation, the nation of Israel.

Look at your own verses. What translation is this? I’ve never seen it. I will then use the KJV although it is not a Jewish friendly translation
——————–
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
——————–
Israel has always been the object of persecution. Even today they are despised and rejected.
——————–
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
——————–
First thing to note is that this is speaking in past tense. He was wounded, he was bruised. Not prophetic!
——————–
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Israel has never been a nation great in number. Yet it has survived. What happened to that great nation of Babylon? Gone. Israel lives on. Israelites have died by many hands: Arabs, Germans, Christians. Yet they still remain. Israel is here to point the world to G-d and has been a persecuted nation nonetheless. Thus their role as intercessor, as the ones to bare the sins of the world.

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PSALM 16:10 “For you will not leave my soul in She’ol. You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit.”

Strange you should list this one since earlier in the Psalm David says this
——————–
Psa 16:4 Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips.
——————–
King David knows that drinking blood is blasphemy. Yet Jesus would have us drink his blood and eat his flesh. Watch what the informed Jews among Jesus’ early followers thought of drinking his blood
——————–
Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you

Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
——————–
I say way to go! They would no longer be mislead by one who would profane Hashem’s holy words!

But let’s address the verse you listed and the context of Psalm 16. First of all this Psalm is not messianic. It is a psalm of David. What of this verse then if it is supposed to be Jesus?
——————–
Psa 16:8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
——————–
Wait I thought Jesus was at the right hand of G-d? This verse says YHVH is at the right hand of the writer. How can both be true? If Jesus is at the right hand, then G-d would be to his left hand. So no, this is not about Jesus. Just another case where a Christian writer yanked a verse out of the Jewish bible to make a case for Jesus.

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MATTHEW 16:21-23 “From that time forward Jesus Christ commenced showing his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the older men and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised up. At this Peter took him aside and commenced rebuking him, saying: “Be kind to yourself, Lord; you will not have this [destiny] at all.” But, turning his back, he said to Peter: “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.”” MATTHEW 17:22-23 “It was while they were gathered together in Gal′i•lee that Jesus said to them: “The Son of man is destined to be betrayed into men’s hands, and they will kill him, and the third day he will be raised up.” Consequently they were very much grieved.” LUKE 24:21 “But we were hoping that this [man] was the one destined to deliver Israel; yes, and besides all these things, this makes the third day since these things occurred.” JOHN 12:34 “Therefore the crowd answered him: “We heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever; and how is it you say that the Son of man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of man?”” JOHN 20:9 “For they did not yet discern the scripture that he must rise from the dead.”

I guess the rest of this serves some other purpose but it does nothing to prove that Jesus is the Messiah.

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2007,02:24)

Jewish sources agree with Luke 2:38 that the people at that time were waiting for Jerusalem’s deliverance. The Jewish Encyclopedia observes: “They yearned for the promised deliverer of the house of David, who would free them from the yoke of the hated foreign usurper, would put an end to the impious Roman rule, and would establish His own reign of peace.” (1976, Vol. VIII, p. 508) They tried to make him an earthly king. (Joh 6:15) When he would not fulfill their expectations, they rejected him. Towshab, in your opinion, were the Jews back then “in expectation” of the messiah, and if so, why? If not, then when is he to come?

Were they looking for a Messiah? Certainly! They knew the Messiah would deliver them once and for all. The Jews were tired of their subjugation and oppression.

Only G-d knows when the true Messiah will come. Read Ezekiel 37-38 to get a real idea of the condition of the world when the Messiah comes.

Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2007,02:33)

Some “contradictions” arise when we have two or more accounts of the same incident. For example, at Matthew 8:5 we read that when Jesus came into Capernaum, “an army officer came to him, entreating him,” asking Jesus to cure his manservant. But at Luke 7:3, we read of this army officer that “he sent forth older men of the Jews to him to ask [Jesus] to come and bring his slave safely through.” Did the army officer speak to Jesus, or did he send the older men? The answer is, clearly, that the man sent the elders of the Jews. Why, then, does Matthew say that the man himself entreated Jesus? Because, in effect, the man asked Jesus through the Jewish elders. The elders served as his mouthpiece. To illustrate this, at 2 Chronicles 3:1, we read: “Finally Solomon started to build the house of Jehovah in Jerusalem.” Later, we read: “Thus Solomon finished the house of Jehovah.” (2 Chronicles 7:11) Did Solomon personally build the temple from start to finish? Of course not. The actual building work was done by a multitude of craftsmen and laborers. But Solomon was the organizer of the work, the one responsible. Hence, the Bible says that he built the house. In the same way, Matthew’s Gospel tells us that the military commander approached Jesus. But Luke gives the added detail that he approached him through the Jewish elders. Here is a similar example. At Matthew 20:20, 21, we read: “The mother of the sons of Zebedee approached [Jesus] with her sons, doing obeisance and asking for something from him.” What she asked was that her sons should have the most favored position when Jesus came into his Kingdom. In Mark’s account of this same event, we read: “James and John, the two sons of Zebedee, stepped up to [Jesus] and said to him: ‘Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever it is we ask you for.’” (Mark 10:35-37) Was it the two sons of Zebedee, or was it their mother, who made the request of Jesus? Clearly, it was the two sons of Zebedee who made the request, as Mark states. But they made it through their mother. She was their spokesperson. This is supported by Matthew’s report that when the other apostles heard what the mother of the sons of Zebedee had done, they became indignant, not at the mother, but “at the two brothers.”—Matthew 20:24. Have you ever heard two people describe an event that they both witnessed? If so, did you notice that each person emphasized details that impressed him? One may have left out things that the other included. Both, however, were telling the truth. It is the same with the four Gospel accounts of Jesus’ ministry, as well as with other historical events reported by more than one Bible writer. Each writer wrote accurate information even when one retained details that another omitted. By considering all the accounts, a fuller understanding of what happened can be gained. Such variations prove that the Bible accounts are independent. And their essential harmony proves that they are true.–God's Word or Man's, page 87 Just as there are at first apparent contradictions in the Greek scriptures, there are also apparent contradictions in the Hebrew scriptures. The old “where did Cain get his wife from” question, which is of course no contradiction at all, is often cited. The solution lies in the fact that Adam and Eve had more than two children. According to the context, they had a large family. At Genesis 5:3 we read that Adam became father to another son named Seth and then, in the following verse, we read: “He became father to sons and daughters.” (Genesis 5:4) So Cain could have married one of his sisters or even one of his nieces. At that early stage of human history, when mankind was so close to perfection, such a marriage evidently did not pose the risks for the children of the union that it would today. Yet, if we just read the actual account of Cain, it might at first SEEM like it doesn't make sense. Something not making sense isn't actually a contradiction. We're just missing some of the information. No two pieces of information actually contradict each other.

Thank you for this. It still does not address the glaring contradictions found in the Christian bible. I know the Jewish bible has them too but they are not so evident as the ones in the gospels or even the rest of the Christian bible.

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2007,02:39)

different viewpoints is one reason for apparent contradictions. Here's one from the Hebrew scriptures: Sometimes the Bible writers wrote about the same event from different viewpoints, or they presented their accounts in different ways. When these differences are taken into consideration, further apparent contradictions are easy to resolve. An example of this is in Numbers 35:14, where Moses speaks of the territory east of the Jordan as “on this side of the Jordan.” Joshua, however, speaking of land to the east of the Jordan, called it “the other side of the Jordan.” (Joshua 22:4) Which is correct? Of course, both are correct. I'll let you figure out why for yourself. Additionally, the way a narrative is constructed can lead to an apparent contradiction. Here's one I've heard a few times: At Genesis 1:24-26, the Bible indicates that the animals were created before man. But at Genesis 2:7, 19, 20, it seems to say that man was created before the animals.

Seems to but there is none. Gen 2:19 speaks in past tense which easily indicates that the animals were formed prior to this account.

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Why the discrepancy? Because the two accounts of the creation discuss it from two different viewpoints. The first describes the creation of the heavens and the earth and everything in them. (Genesis 1:1–2:4) The second concentrates on the creation of the human race and its fall into sin.—Genesis 2:5–4:26. The first account is constructed chronologically, divided into six consecutive “days.” The second is written in order of topical importance. After a short prologue, it logically goes straight to the creation of Adam, since he and his family are the subject of what follows. (Genesis 2:7) Sometimes, we just have to Read the Account Carefully This is the case when we consider the conquest of Jerusalem by the Israelites. Jerusalem was listed as part of the inheritance of Benjamin, but we read that Benjamin’s tribe was unable to conquer it. (Joshua 18:28; Judges 1:21) We also read that Judah was unable to conquer Jerusalem—as if it were part of that tribe’s inheritance. Eventually, Judah defeated Jerusalem, burning it with fire. (Joshua 15:63; Judges 1:8) Hundreds of years later, however, David is also recorded as conquering Jerusalem.—2 Samuel 5:5-9. At first glance, all of this might appear confusing, but there are in reality no contradictions. In fact, the boundary between Benjamin’s inheritance and Judah’s ran along the Valley of Hinnom, right through the ancient city of Jerusalem. What later came to be called the City of David actually lay in the territory of Benjamin, just as Joshua 18:28 says. But it is likely that the Jebusite city of Jerusalem spilled across the Valley of Hinnom and thus overlapped into Judah’s territory, so that Judah, too, had to war against its Canaanite inhabitants. Benjamin was unable to conquer the city. On one occasion, Judah did conquer Jerusalem and burn it. (Judges 1:8, 9) But Judah’s forces evidently moved on, and some of the original inhabitants regained possession of the city. Later, they formed a pocket of resistance that neither Judah nor Benjamin could remove. Thus, the Jebusites continued in Jerusalem until David conquered the city hundreds of years later. Proof of Independence True, there are some apparent inconsistencies in the Bible that are difficult to reconcile. But we should not assume that they are definite contradictions. . Often it is merely a case of lack of complete information. : “There are, in fact, many other things also which Jesus did, which, if ever they were written in full detail, I suppose, the world itself could not contain the scrolls written.” (John 21:25) It would be even more of an impossibility to record all the details of the long history of God’s people from the patriarchs to the first-century Christian congregation!

Yet there are some very striking contradictions in the gospels as to the resurrection account. Will you be addressing the list I gave?

[Towshab]

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 29 2007,06:24)

According to the Hebrew scriptures, the Messiah must meet the following conditions: 1 – Be the “seed of the woman” that would bruise the serpent's heel (Genesis 3:15, Galations 4:4, 1 John 3:8)

Genesis 3:15 is talking about the snake and mankind. Snakes crawl on the ground. Man can step on a snakes head but a snake can bite a man’s heel. This was not the case before because the serpent had legs and now it was to be cursed to slither on its belly. This was only made to be messianic by Christians when it has nothing to do with the Messiah. Besides the Messiah is also to be of the seed of David and Solomon. Virgin birth rules that out.

As to the Messiah being of the seed of a woman, aren’t all humans? That’s a pretty broad prophecy!

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2 – Be the “seed of Abraham” (Genesis 12:3, Matthew 1:1, Acts 3:25, 18:18,22,18, Gal. 3:16). 3 – Be the “seed of Isaac” (Genesis 17:19, 21:12, Matthew 1:2, Luke 3:34, Heb. 11:17-19) 4 – Be the “seed of Jacob” and the “star out of Jacob” who will “have dominion” (Genesis 28:14, Nu. 24:17,19, Matthew 1:2, Luke 3:34, Rev. 22:16) 5 – Be a descendant of Judah (Genesis 49:10, Matthew 1:2-3, Luke 3:33, Heb. 7:14) 6 – Be a descendant of David and heir to his throne (2 Sam. 7:12-13, Isaiah 9:6(7), 11:1-5, Jeremiah 23:5, Matthew 1:1,6, Acts 11:23, Romans 1:4)

Virgin birth? Void #2-6.

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7 – Be the Son of God (Psalms 2:7, Proverbs 30:4, Matthew 3:17, Luke 1:32)

Is this messianic? Possibly but not likely. All of this can easily apply to King David. He is called G-d’s firstborn in Ps 89:27. Israel is begotten by G-d in Deu 32:18 and is called G-d’s firstborn in Ex 4:22. Therefore just another case of making Jesus fit into the Jewish scriptures but as usual doing it out of context.

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8 – Have God's own name, YHVH applied to him (Isaiah 9:5-6(6-7), Jere.23:5-6, Romans 10:9, Phil. 2:9-11)

Hate to break it to you but this prophecy has already likely been fulfilled in Hezekiah. Notice the verse says ‘unto us a child IS born’ not ‘unto us a child WILL BE born’. Hezekiah means ‘YHVH is strong’ which is another way to say ‘Mighty God’.

As to Jer 23:5-6, no way hosea. Has any of this happened? No and the second coming is just a ploy to make up for the many ways Jesus failed as Messiah.

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9 – Come at a specific time, 483 yrs.after the rebuilding of the wall of Jerusalem (Daniel 9:24-26, Matthew 2:1,16,19, Luke 3:1,23)

I still need to look over Daniel 9. I will try to focus on this soon. Daniel himself was perplexed by this.

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10 – Be born in Bethlehem, in Judah (Micah 5:1(2), Matthew 2:1, Lk.2:4-7)

Already covered in the Matthew thread. To make the story short the Messiah is to come from the clan of Ephrathah, not necessarily be born in Bethlehem. In fact the way it reads in Matthew makes it appear that the Messiah is to be from Bethlehem. But according to Luke, Jesus was a Nazarene. You are not ‘from’ a place if it is only your place of birth. Mary and Joseph resided in Nazareth so Jesus was ‘from’ Nazareth.

[Towshab]

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 29 2007,06:24)

11 – Be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18-2:1, Luke 1:26-35)

Twisting of ‘almah’ which means ‘young woman’. The LXX uses ‘parthenos’ which would lead to the usual rendering of ‘virgin’ in Is 7:14, but in Gen 34:2-4 the LXX calls Dinah a ‘parthenos’ ('young woman') even after she has been raped. I hardly think someone who has been raped can be called a virgin do you?
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Gen 34:2 And Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, the ruler of the land, saw her, he took her and lay with her, and violated her.
Gen 34:3 And he was strongly attracted to the soul of Dinah the daughter of Jacob, and he loved the young woman, and he spoke kindly to the young woman.
Gen 34:4 Shechem spoke to Hamor his father, saying, Take for me this young woman for a wife.
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Also what of this verse?
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Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
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Can you show me where this was fulfilled in Jesus’ day?

In actuality, Immanuel is Isaiah’s son as is Shearjashub (Is 7:3). Just like Hosea who was prophesying to Israel, Isaiah is the prophet to Judah. Both Hosea and Isaiah were told by G-d what names their children would have and the names reflected the spiritual conditions of the two kingdoms. Isaiah’s children had names that reflected Judah’s faithfulness while Hosea’s children had names that reflected Israel’s wickedness.

Even Strong’s agrees
From H5973 and H410 with suffix pronoun inserted; with us (is) God; Immanuel, a name of Isaiah’s son: – Immanuel.

So Immanuel is Isaiah’s son and Matthew just yanks it out of context and applies it to Jesus. So if you agree with the virgin birth if Jesus and the verse in which it is based on is Is 7:14, then Isaiah’s son Immanuel was born of a virgin as well. Wonder how that happened?

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12 – Be adored by great persons (Psalms 72:10-11, Matthew 2:1-11)

That one is odd. Where do you find in Matthew 2:1-11 that the kings of Tarshish and Sheba brought him gifts? Plonk.

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13 – Be preceded by one who would anounce him (Isaiah 40:3-5, Malachi 3:1, Matthew 3:1-3, Lk.1:17,3:2-6)

John the Baptist denied being Elijah. He didn’t seem to want to play the game anymore did he? He even asked if Jesus was really the Messiah or should he seek another. Seems John the Baptist lost the faith in the end too.

The balance of Mal 3 was not fulfilled. Let’s look at Is 40:5
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Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
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Well if all flesh is to see it I wonder why the historians of Jesus’ time were silent as to his existence? Seems all flesh did not see, so yet another failed prophecy.

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14 – Be a prophet like Moses (Deut. 18:15,18, Acts 3:20-22)

Yet according to Christians Jesus is either a god in the flesh or an angel or part of a triune god. Was Moses like any of these things?

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15 – Have a ministry of binding up the brokenhearted, proclaiming liberty to the captives and announcing the acceptable year of the Lord (Isaiah 61:1-2, Luke 4:18-19)

What year is that? Oh now I keep forgetting. I need to research this but it is my understanding that in that time period they only read from the Torah in the synagogues. Isaiah is not from the Torah but the Tanakh! That aside lets look at what Jesus read and what Is 61:1-2 says. I will use the Septuagint since Jesus didn’t seem to know how to read Hebrew.
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Luk 4:18 [Apostles] “The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed;
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the LORD.”

Isa 61:1 [Apostles] The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me; He has sent Me to preach the gospel to the poor, to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind;
Isa 61:2 to declare the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of recompense; to comfort all that mourn;
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So Jesus, where did ‘to set at liberty those who are oppressed’ come from? Not in the Septuagint! Well maybe he did know Hebrew and used the Jewish scriptures.
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Isa 61:1 [JPS 1917] The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to bring good tidings unto the humble; He hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the eyes to them that are bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the year of the LORD'S good pleasure, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
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No ‘to set at liberty those who are oppressed’ in the Jewish either. Seems Jesus was breaking another of G-d’s commandments by adding to scripture.

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16 – Have a ministry of healing (Isaiah 35:5-6, 42:18, Matthew 11:5)

Don’t stop there
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Isa 35:7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
Isa 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
Isa 35:9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:
Isa 35:10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
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Yet another example of not looking at the context of a passage. Did the rest of this ever happen?

As to Is 42:18 what about a few verses earlier?
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Isa 42:15 I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools.
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How much more will
Christians just yank verses out of the Jewish bible to create a Messiah when he did not fulfill the rest of the prophecies associated with these supposed prophecies?

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17 – Have a ministry in the Galilee (Isaiah 8:23-9:1(9:1-2), Matthew 4:12-16)

Already covered in relation to Is 9;6. This is speaking of Hezekiah.

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18 – Be tender and compassionate (Isaiah 40:11, 42:3, Matthew 12:15,20, Hebrews 4:15)

The passage in Isaiah here is directly speaking of YHVH not the future Messiah. Unless of course you think YHVH is the future Messiah. That’s just messed up because G-d many many times says he is not a man nor a son of man.

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19 – Be meek and unostentatious (Isaiah 42:2, Matthew 12:15-16,19)

G-d’s servant in Isaiah is Jacob (Israel).
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Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

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20 – Be sinless and without guile (Isaiah 53:9, 1 Peter 2:22)

Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
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Since Jesus was buried in an unoccupied tomb how did he make his grave with the wicked? Plus what of one of the prior verses
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Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
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If you’ll look back at Jesus’ trial you’ll see that he indeed opened his mouth. Another failed prophecy.

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