Jesus, THE Messiah?

[Towshab]

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 26 2007,07:36)

Towshab, Underneath, your disappointment with the Christian faith. Your disgust with Paul. Your disenchament with those who defend Christianity.

You assume these things yet cannot know for you are not in my shoes. I am not disappointed with the Christian faith, I am disappointed that I spent so many years believing something that is not really true. Paul is disgusting. If he was a Jew, he took his heritage and defaced it.

I am not disenchanted by those who defend Christianity either. Not honestly in any case. Those who call me demon possessed and use various other language make me laugh though, because they certainly don't help their case. All they show is that they have no real defense against what I present so they depend on other means to make their point. Its like sticking your fingers in your ears and singing 'lalalalalala', or turning up the radio in the car to block out the weird sound coming from under the hood.

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Underneath it all, and please be honest, do you miss Jesus?

No, should I? Who is the real Jesus? I do believe such a person existed, and that he tried to reform Judaism, but that he was also seen as a threat to the local Roman authorities. He was likely associated with zealots and was killed for threatening an uprising. Wasn't the messiah supposed to deliver his people?

For the most part, the Jesus in the synoptic gospels was a decent Jew. He looked to be against the rabbis and their way of interpreting the Torah. Just as some Christians are against the Catholic church, so Jesus was against the rabbis. Yet I don't believe the Jews had him killed unless they were working with the Roman government. I don't believe the Pharisees were in cahoots with Rome, but the Sadduccees may have been.

Whether or not Jesus really though he was the Messiah is not certain. There were many going around in the 1st and 2nd century making that claim. In any case, his hopes of being the promised Messiah ended on the cross. Hundreds of Jews were killed by crucifixion, so Jesus was just one among many rebels who died by Roman hands.

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Is there a part somewhere deep in your heart that wishes you stilled believed or that wishes you could believe? When you invision Jesus giving his sermon on the mount and you see him in your mind's eye and he turns and looks right at you with his piercing eyes and says. “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. “ Even if it's against your will is there a part of you that longs for him? Is there a part of you that still loves him?

Love him as what? A failed messiah? His messages were strong to me at one time, but then I discovered that the messages of the Jewish scriptures were much more beautiful. Jesus' words were often just rewordings of Psalms.

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Even if I was to loose my faith this day I don't know if I could ever live my life without an empty spot inside me, without longing to reach out for the one man in history who so completely changed our planet and the hearts of millions. Who else has ever spoke like he spoke?

King David. Solomon. Job. G-d.

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Who else has ever demonstrated love like him? Who else would still love us even if we hated him?

G-d.

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This is a trustworthy saying: If we die with him, we will also live with him. If we endure hardship, we will reign with him. If we deny him, he will deny us. If we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny who he is.

Very nice. Yet none of this means as much when you weigh the evidence. Jesus was a failed messiah.

[david]

So, I take it you are still waiting for Messiah?

Hundreds of prophecies were fullfilled through Jesus.

Since the records were destroyed when Jerusalem was, there really is no way of another even claiming to be Messiah.

Go back and look at daniel and the seventy weeks (of years). It pointed to the time (the very year Jesus arrived as messiah) when he was annointed with holy spirit by God.

LUKE 3:15
“Now as the people were in expectation and all were reasoning in their hearts about John: “May he perhaps be the Christ?””

These Jews were in expectation and were seeing Messiah's everywhere, because the Bible pointed to that time.

So I ask. If Jesus isn't the Messiah, who back then was?

This prophecy in Daniel was not one the Jews would have overlooked:

DANIEL 9:24-27
““There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·si′ah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times. “And after the sixty-two weeks Mes·si′ah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. “And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate.””

They were desparately wanting the Messiah to appear. So, find the “word” to restore and rebuild Jersualem. Then, as the Jews did, calculate the weeks (of years) and you arrive at the time when the Jews were in “expectation.”

Note, too that it says the MEssiah would be “cut off.” Yet, you keep asserting the Messiah “failed” in that he sacrificed his life for us. How do you interpret “cut off”?

[david]

Just to add a little detail:

“You should know and have the insight that from the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times.”—Daniel 9:25.

Persian King Artaxerxes gave “the word” to restore and rebuild Jerusalem in the 20th year of his reign. His reign began in 474 B.C.E., so his 20th year would be 455 B.C.E. (Nehemiah 2:1-8)

Thus, a period of 69 (7 plus 62) prophetic weeks would separate the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem and the appearance of the Messiah. Sixty-nine literal weeks, of course, equal only 483 days, or less than two years. But when the stated prophetic rule of “a day for a year” is applied, it reveals that the Messiah would appear 483 years later, in 29 C.E.—Ezekiel 4:6.

Is it possible that Jesus’ fulfilling Messianic prophecies was mere coincidence? In an interview, one scholar answered: “Not a chance. The odds are so astronomical that they rule that out. Someone did the math and figured out that the probability of just eight prophecies being fulfilled is one chance in one hundred million billion.”

Jesus had enemies. Early Christianity had lots of enemies. How easy it would have been to point out that Jesus wasn't who he said he was, if this was the case. Those pharisees who wanted him gone, said that he fulfilled many signs.

It is true, Towshab, he did not come as an all-conquering King to break the oppressive yoke of the Romans, as most Jews and even his followers seemed to have expected. (Isaiah, chapter 53; Zechariah 9:9; Acts 1:6-8)
His future coming, however, was foretold to be with power and great authority.—Daniel 2:44; 7:13, 14.

Sorry, back to the “weeks.”

As to the following “sixty-two weeks” (Da 9:25), these, being part of the 70 and named second in order, would continue from the conclusion of the “seven weeks.” Therefore, the time “from the going forth of the word” to rebuild Jerusalem until “Messiah the Leader” would be 7 plus 62 “weeks,” or 69 “weeks”—483 years—from the year 455 B.C.E. to 29 C.E. As mentioned above, in the autumn of that year, 29 C.E., Jesus was baptized in water, was anointed with holy spirit, and began his ministry as “Messiah the Leader.”—Lu 3:1, 2, 21, 22.

Perhaps the Jews in the first century C.E. had made calculations on the basis of Daniel’s prophecy and were therefore on the alert for Messiah’s appearance. The Bible reports:

“Now as the people were in expectation and all were reasoning in their hearts about John: ‘May he perhaps be the Christ?’” (Lu 3:15)

Although they were expecting the Messiah, they evidently could not pinpoint the exact month, week, or day of his arrival. Therefore, they wondered whether John was the Christ, even though John evidently began his ministry in the spring of 29 C.E., about six months before Jesus presented himself for baptism.

“Cut off” at the half of the week.
Gabriel further said to Daniel:
“After the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.” ” (Da 9:26) It was sometime after the end of the ‘seven plus sixty-two weeks,’ actually about three and a half years afterward, that Christ was cut off in death on a torture stake, giving up all that he had, as a ransom for mankind. (Isa 53:8) Evidence indicates that the first half of the “week” was spent by Jesus in the ministry. On one occasion, likely in the fall of 32 C.E., he gave an illustration, apparently speaking of the Jewish nation as a fig tree (compare Mt 17:15-20; 21:18, 19, 43) that had borne no fruit for “three years.” The vinedresser said to the owner of the vineyard: “Master, let it alone also this year, until I dig around it and put on manure; and if then it produces fruit in the future, well and good; but if not, you shall cut it down.” (Lu 13:6-9) He may have referred here to the time period of his own ministry to that unresponsive nation, which ministry had continued at that point for about three years and was to continue into a fourth year.

Covenant in force “for one week.”
Daniel 9:27 states: “And he must keep the covenant in force for the many for one week [or seven years]; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.”The “covenant” could not be the Law covenant, for Christ’s sacrifice, three and a half years after the 70th “week” began, resulted in its removal by God: “He has taken it [the Law] out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.” (Col 2:14) Also, “Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law . . . The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham might come to be by means of Jesus Christ for the nations.” (Ga 3:13, 14) God, through Christ, did extend the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant to the natural offspring of Abraham, excluding the Gentiles until the gospel was taken to them through Peter’s preaching to the Italian Cornelius. (Ac 3:25, 26; 10:1-48) This conversion of Cornelius and his household occurred after the conversion of Saul of Tarsus, which is generally considered to have taken place in about 34 C.E.; after this the congregation enjoyed a period of peace, being built up. (Ac 9:1-16, 31) It appears, then, that the bringing of Cornelius into the Christian congregation took place about the autumn of 36 C.E., which would be the end of the 70th “week,” 490 years from 455 B.C.E.

Sacrifices and offerings ‘caused to cease.’
The expression ‘cause to cease,’ used with reference to sacrifice and gift offering, means, literally, “cause or make to sabbath, to rest, to desist from working.” The “sacrifice and gift offering” that are ‘caused to cease,’ according to Daniel 9:27, could not be Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, nor would they logically be any spiritual sacrifice by his footstep followers. They must refer to the sacrifices and gift offerings that were offered by the Jews at the temple in Jerusalem according to Moses’ Law.

“The half of the week” would be at the middle of seven years, or after three and a half years within that “week” of years. Since the 70th “week” began about the fall of 29 C.E. at Jesus’ baptism and anointing to be Christ, half of that week (three and a half years) would extend to the spring of 33 C.E., or Passover time (Nisan 14) of that year. This day appears to have been April 1, 33 C.E., according to the Gregorian calendar. The apostle Paul tells us that Jesus ‘came to do the will of God,’ which was to ‘do away with what is first [the sacrifices and offerings according to the Law] that he may establish what is second.’ This he did by offering as a sacrifice his own body.—Heb 10:1-10.

Although the Jewish priests continued to offer sacrifices at the temple in Jerusalem until its destruction in 70 C.E., the sacrifices for sin ceased having acceptance and validity with God. Just before Jesus’ death he said to Jerusalem: “Your house is abandoned to you.” (Mt 23:38) Christ “offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually . . . For it is by one sacrificial offering that he has made those who are being sanctified perfect perpetually.” “Now where there is forgiveness [of sins and lawless deeds], there is no longer an offering for sin.” (Heb 10:12-14, 18) The apostle Paul points out that Jeremiah’s prophecy spoke of a new covenant, the former covenant (Law covenant) being thereby made obsolete and growing old, “near to vanishing away.”—Heb 8:7-13.

Transgression and sin terminated.
Jesus’ being cut off in death, his resurrection, and his appearance in heaven resulted in ‘terminating transgression and finishing off sin as well as in making atonement for error.’ (Da 9:24) The Law covenant had exposed the Jews as sinners, condemned them as
such, and brought upon them the curse as covenant breakers. But where sin “abounded” as exposed or made evident by the Mosaic Law, God’s mercy and favor abounded much more through his Messiah. (Ro 5:20) By Messiah’s sacrifice, transgression and sin of the repentant sinners can be canceled and the penalty thereof be lifted.

[Morningstar]

Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2007,13:01)

Just to add a little detail: “You should know and have the insight that from the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times.”—Daniel 9:25. Persian King Artaxerxes gave “the word” to restore and rebuild Jerusalem in the 20th year of his reign. His reign began in 474 B.C.E., so his 20th year would be 455 B.C.E. (Nehemiah 2:1-8) Thus, a period of 69 (7 plus 62) prophetic weeks would separate the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem and the appearance of the Messiah. Sixty-nine literal weeks, of course, equal only 483 days, or less than two years. But when the stated prophetic rule of “a day for a year” is applied, it reveals that the Messiah would appear 483 years later, in 29 C.E.—Ezekiel 4:6. Is it possible that Jesus’ fulfilling Messianic prophecies was mere coincidence? In an interview, one scholar answered: “Not a chance. The odds are so astronomical that they rule that out. Someone did the math and figured out that the probability of just eight prophecies being fulfilled is one chance in one hundred million billion.” Jesus had enemies.  Early Christianity had lots of enemies.  How easy it would have been to point out that Jesus wasn't who he said he was, if this was the case.  Those pharisees who wanted him gone, said that he fulfilled many signs.   It is true, Towshab, he did not come as an all-conquering King to break the oppressive yoke of the Romans, as most Jews and even his followers seemed to have expected. (Isaiah, chapter 53; Zechariah 9:9; Acts 1:6-8) His future coming, however, was foretold to be with power and great authority.—Daniel 2:44; 7:13, 14. Sorry, back to the “weeks.” As to the following “sixty-two weeks” (Da 9:25), these, being part of the 70 and named second in order, would continue from the conclusion of the “seven weeks.” Therefore, the time “from the going forth of the word” to rebuild Jerusalem until “Messiah the Leader” would be 7 plus 62 “weeks,” or 69 “weeks”—483 years—from the year 455 B.C.E. to 29 C.E. As mentioned above, in the autumn of that year, 29 C.E., Jesus was baptized in water, was anointed with holy spirit, and began his ministry as “Messiah the Leader.”—Lu 3:1, 2, 21, 22. Perhaps the Jews in the first century C.E. had made calculations on the basis of Daniel’s prophecy and were therefore on the alert for Messiah’s appearance. The Bible reports: “Now as the people were in expectation and all were reasoning in their hearts about John: ‘May he perhaps be the Christ?’” (Lu 3:15) Although they were expecting the Messiah, they evidently could not pinpoint the exact month, week, or day of his arrival. Therefore, they wondered whether John was the Christ, even though John evidently began his ministry in the spring of 29 C.E., about six months before Jesus presented himself for baptism. “Cut off” at the half of the week. Gabriel further said to Daniel: “After the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.” ” (Da 9:26) It was sometime after the end of the ‘seven plus sixty-two weeks,’ actually about three and a half years afterward, that Christ was cut off in death on a torture stake, giving up all that he had, as a ransom for mankind. (Isa 53:8) Evidence indicates that the first half of the “week” was spent by Jesus in the ministry. On one occasion, likely in the fall of 32 C.E., he gave an illustration, apparently speaking of the Jewish nation as a fig tree (compare Mt 17:15-20; 21:18, 19, 43) that had borne no fruit for “three years.” The vinedresser said to the owner of the vineyard: “Master, let it alone also this year, until I dig around it and put on manure; and if then it produces fruit in the future, well and good; but if not, you shall cut it down.” (Lu 13:6-9) He may have referred here to the time period of his own ministry to that unresponsive nation, which ministry had continued at that point for about three years and was to continue into a fourth year. Covenant in force “for one week.” Daniel 9:27 states: “And he must keep the covenant in force for the many for one week [or seven years]; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.”The “covenant” could not be the Law covenant, for Christ’s sacrifice, three and a half years after the 70th “week” began, resulted in its removal by God: “He has taken it [the Law] out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.” (Col 2:14) Also, “Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law . . . The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham might come to be by means of Jesus Christ for the nations.” (Ga 3:13, 14) God, through Christ, did extend the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant to the natural offspring of Abraham, excluding the Gentiles until the gospel was taken to them through Peter’s preaching to the Italian Cornelius. (Ac 3:25, 26; 10:1-48) This conversion of Cornelius and his household occurred after the conversion of Saul of Tarsus, which is generally considered to have taken place in about 34 C.E.; after this the congregation enjoyed a period of peace, being built up. (Ac 9:1-16, 31) It appears, then, that the bringing of Cornelius into the Christian congregation took place about the autumn of 36 C.E., which would be the end of the 70th “week,” 490 years from 455 B.C.E. Sacrifices and offerings ‘caused to cease.’ The expression ‘cause to cease,’ used with reference to sacrifice and gift offering, means, literally, “cause or make to sabbath, to rest, to desist from working.” The “sacrifice and gift offering” that are ‘caused to cease,’ according to Daniel 9:27, could not be Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, nor would they logically be any spiritual sacrifice by his footstep followers. They must refer to the sacrifices and gift offerings that were offered by the Jews at the temple in Jerusalem according to Moses’ Law. “The half of the week” would be at the middle of seven years, or after three and a half years within that “week” of years. Since the 70th “week” began about the fall of 29 C.E. at Jesus’ baptism and anointing to be Christ, half of that week (three and a half years) would extend to the spring of 33 C.E., or Passover time (Nisan 14) of that year. This day appears to have been April 1, 33 C.E., according to the Gregorian calendar.  The apostle Paul tells us that Jesus ‘came to do the will of God,’ which was to ‘do away with what is first [the sacrifices and offerings according to the Law] that he may establish what is second.’ This he did by offering as a sacrifice his own body.—Heb 10:1-10. Although the Jewish priests continued to offer sacrifices at the temple in Jerusalem until its destruction in 70 C.E., the sacrifices for sin ceased having acceptance and validity with God. Just before Jesus’ death he said to Jerusalem: “Your house is abandoned to you.” (Mt 23:38) Christ “offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually . . . For it is by one sacrificial offering that he has made those who are being sanctified perfect perpetually.” “Now where there is forgiveness [of sins and lawless deeds], there is no longer an offering for sin.” (Heb 10:12-14, 18) The apostle Paul points out that Jeremiah’s prophecy spoke of a new covenant, the former covenant (Law covenant) being thereby made obsolete and growing old, “near to vanishing away.”—Heb 8:7-13. Transgression and sin terminated. Jesus’ being cut off in death, his resurre ction, and his appearance in heaven resulted in ‘terminating transgression and finishing off sin as well as in making atonement for error.’ (Da 9:24) The Law covenant had exposed the Jews as sinners, condemned them as such, and brought upon them the curse as covenant breakers. But where sin “abounded” as exposed or made evident by the Mosaic Law, God’s mercy and favor abounded much more through his Messiah. (Ro 5:20) By Messiah’s sacrifice, transgression and sin of the repentant sinners can be canceled and the penalty thereof be lifted.

amen David!

I tried to share this with him as well. But, he didn't really acknowledge it.

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Oct. 26 2007,19:47)

So, I take it you are still waiting for Messiah? Hundreds of prophecies were fullfilled through Jesus.

No, hundreds of verses taken out of context were fulfilled by Jesus. Christian writers took the Jewish scriptures and attempted to make Jesus into the Messiah. When he died on the cross, they had to start making up stuff. Matthew's gospel is the worst one because it was written to Jews. Only those Jews who do not study their Bible fall for Matthew.

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Since the records were destroyed when Jerusalem was, there really is no way of another even claiming to be Messiah.

What records do you speak of? Genealogy? These were not stored in the temple.

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Go back and look at daniel and the seventy weeks (of years). It pointed to the time (the very year Jesus arrived as messiah) when he was annointed with holy spirit by God.

Really? I will answer the Daniel passage in time, but it takes some work because Christian versions of the Tanakh are severely flawed.

In any case, I can show from both Matthew and Luke that you can not be certain of the time Jesus was born. Luke and Matthew do not agree by a margin of 10 years or so. Inspired by G-d? Better think twice.

Heres the Matthew account. According to Mat 2, Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great. I'll be quite liberal and give you 4 BC, the year of his death, as the birth date of Jesus. most would guess 6 BC, but I'm flexible.

Luke says Jesus was born during the census of Quirinius (Luke 2:2). This did not occur until 6-7 AD. Already, Luke and Matthew disagree by a period of 11-13 years!! Inspired? Sure.

Luke goes on to say that Jesus was 30 when he started his ministry (Luke 3:23), during the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar. Tiberius Caesar's reign started in 14 AD. Add 15 to 14, get 29, subtract 30, get 1 BC. Seems Luke can't even agree with himself!

As to the dates, check wikipedia.

If we have this many conflicts as to the date of Jesus birth between 2 gospels, can we say with certainty that the Christian bible is inspired by G-d? Hardly.

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LUKE 3:15 “Now as the people were in expectation and all were reasoning in their hearts about John: “May he perhaps be the Christ?”” These Jews were in expectation and were seeing Messiah's everywhere, because the Bible pointed to that time. So I ask. If Jesus isn't the Messiah, who back then was?

No one? You read too much into Daniel 9. There were several “messiahs” in the Jewish scriptures. 'Messiah' means 'anointed', just as 'christos' does.

The one who most fits the 'messiah' who was cut off is Caiaphas. He was an anointed priest, but the temple was destroyed under him.

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This prophecy in Daniel was not one the Jews would have overlooked: DANIEL 9:24-27 ““There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·si′ah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times. “And after the sixty-two weeks Mes·si′ah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. “And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate.”” They were desparately wanting the Messiah to appear. So, find the “word” to restore and rebuild Jersualem. Then, as the Jews did, calculate the weeks (of years) and you arrive at the time when the Jews were in “expectation.” Note, too that it says the MEssiah would be “cut off.” Yet, you keep asserting the Messiah “failed” in that he sacrificed his life for us. How do you interpret “cut off”?

See above. Caiaphas was 'cut off' when the temple was destroyed.

[Towshab]

Quote (942767 @ Oct. 26 2007,09:01)

Hi Towshab: You say: Quote While this is quoted from in the Christian bible, don't assume automatically that it is about Jesus. If I was going to prove a point about my man being the Messiah, I'd use the Jewish scriptures to prove my point as well. That aside, I want to direct you to the last 2 verses in that same chapter. ——– Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. ——– Now, if a prophet is a true prophet of Hashem, all of his prophecies will come to pass. Yet Jesus had at least one that did not. ——– Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Wait, its been almost 2000 years since Jesus said this. Which one of the people he spoke to here is still alive? Failed prophecy, false prophet. I guess the next avenue would be to speak of a symbolic death, such as the final death, but that doesn't fly. Many people in Jesus day were still looking for him to return. Still looking today. Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Is 2000 years quickly? Looks like his prophecies are still failing. I believe that Matt. 16:28 refers to the fact that some that were hearing him preach the Kingdom of God would not physically die before his resurrection from the dead. At that time he stated: Quote Matt 18:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. It was at that time that he came into his kingdom. And so, the prophecy was fulfilled. And the other prophecy that you mentioned will also be fulfilled. He is waiting for people like you to repent.

That would be OK had it not been for the preceding verse

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Can you show me where he came in the glory of his father and with his angels? No. You are trying to isolate a verse to prove your point and that hardly ever works when one is well studied in scripture.

And as far as waiting for people like me to repent, then the world will likely never see Jesus return. There is hardly ever an instance of someone turning away from Christianity to another religion and then turning back.

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Hear the following that God is saying to you: Quote 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting F10 unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. God Bless

You too. The verses you list mean nothing to me anymore.

[david]

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get 29, subtract 30, get 1 BC.

I don't have time to read this right now, but if you subtract 30 from the year 29, you get 2 BC.

There is no zero year. (Many make that mistake.)

It goes like this: -3, -2, -1, 1, 2, 3, 4….
No zero year.

I've actually went through the acount with Jesus missing from the tomb. There is no contradiction. It's just that one of the Bible writers has added more detail (Mary going to tell Peter, etc that the tomb is empty) The other three don't mention that. So, when Peter goes to run to the tomb the second time, you confuse the two.

I'll post on this later.

There is no contradiction.

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2007,01:52)

Quote get 29, subtract 30, get 1 BC. I don't have time to read this right now, but if you subtract 30 from the year 29, you get 2 BC. There is no zero year. (Many make that mistake.) It goes like this: -3, -2, -1, 1, 2, 3, 4…. No zero year.

Thanks, you are right. But that doesn't change the fact that Luke can't agree with his own narrative. That's what happens when oral traditions are put together to try to make up an 'eyewitness' account. They didn't have wikipedia back then. Not even a good set of Funk & Wagnells!

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I've actually went through the acount with Jesus missing from the tomb. There is no contradiction. It's just that one of the Bible writers has added more detail (Mary going to tell Peter, etc that the tomb is empty) The other three don't mention that. So, when Peter goes to run to the tomb the second time, you confuse the two.

If the 4 gospels were used in a court of law to prove Jesus rose, assuming these people had not hear of Jesus of course, the jury would likely disagree with you. I will try to line the accounts up sometime soon and show the discrepancies.

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I'll post on this later. There is no contradiction.

OK, see ya.

[david]

All of Luke is in Italics. John in bold. These are the only two accounts that at first, might seem to contradict.

LUKE 24:1-12
“On the first day of the week, however, they went very early to the tomb, bearing the spices they had prepared. But they found the stone rolled away from the memorial tomb, and when they entered they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.

JOHN 20:1-12
“On the first day of the week Mary Maǵda·lene came to the memorial tomb early, while there was still darkness, and she beheld the stone already taken away from the memorial tomb. [“and when they entered they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.”]

Therefore she ran and came to Simon Peter and to the other disciple, for whom Jesus had affection, and she said to them: “They have taken away the Lord out of the memorial tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.”
Then Peter and the other disciple went out and started for the memorial tomb. Yes, the two together began to run; but the other disciple ran ahead of Peter with greater speed and reached the memorial tomb first. And, stooping forward, he beheld the bandages lying, yet he did not go in. Then Simon Peter also came following him, and he entered into the memorial tomb. And he viewed the bandages lying, also the cloth that had been upon his head not lying with the bandages but separately rolled up in one place. At that time, therefore, the other disciple who had reached the memorial tomb first also went in, and he saw and believed. For they did not yet discern the scripture that he must rise from the dead.
And so the disciples went back to their homes.
Mary, however, kept standing outside near the memorial tomb, weeping. Then, while she was weeping, she stooped forward to look into the memorial tomb and she viewed two angels in white sitting one at the head and one at the feet where the body of Jesus had been lying.”

Towshab, Luke left this part out about Peter and John running to the tomb. (Maybe he didn’t feel it was necessary to include. It was most likely “john” who was the other runner, the faster runner, being much younger. This is why he leaves his name out. And this is perhaps why he would include this and Luke wouldn’t.–Because luke wasn’t someone who was involved. Either way, no contradiction, just less information.) They came, then they “went back to their homes” as John’s account says. Now, continuing on, where John leaves off, with Mary seeing the angels, let’s go back to luke’s account:

While they were in perplexity over this, look! two men in flashing clothing stood by them.

As the [women] became frightened and kept their faces turned to the ground, the [men] said to them: “Why are YOU looking for the living One among the dead? [[He is not here, but has been raised up.]] Recall how he spoke to YOU while he was yet in Gaĺi·lee, saying that the Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be impaled and yet on the third day rise.”

So they called his sayings to mind, and they returned from the memorial tomb and reported all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.

They were the Maǵda·lene Mary, and Jo·ańna, and Mary the [mother] of James.

Also, the rest of the women with them were telling the apostles these things.

However, these sayings appeared as nonsense to them and they would not believe the [women].

[[But Peter rose and ran to the memorial tomb, [AGAIN, A SECOND TIME] and, stooping forward, he beheld the bandages alone. So he went off, wondering within himself at what had occurred.]]

No contradiction.

So, while it appeared as nonsense to some, not to Peter. He rose and AGAIN, ran to the tomb, A SECOND TIME. (Maybe Luke left the first time Peter ran there out so as not to confuse some people.)

[david]

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Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. Mat 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Mat 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: Mat 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. Mat 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. Mat 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. Mat 28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. Mat 28:8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word. ——————– Matthew only has two women going to the tomb, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (whoever she is). The angel spoke to both of them and they both left according to verses 28:5 and 28:8. Matthew does not show them leaving before they encountered the angel.

You're right. it doesn't show it. They went there. Mary left and came back. Most didn't include this, but John did, because he was the second runner.

If these events happen: “1,2,3,4,5,6,7” and some of those events are more important than others, some will record only the most important events: “1,2,3,5.” Some will record all the events. And especially if someone is involved, they will focus on the part they are involved in. John was the last to pen his books, many years after the others–the last apostle to die. He was much younger when all this was happening and could therefore run much faster. And because of this, he didn't mention the name of that fast runner, but humbly left it out.

This is not a contradiction.

[david]

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If the 4 gospels were used in a court of law to prove Jesus rose, assuming these people had not hear of Jesus of course, the jury would likely disagree with you. I will try to line the accounts up sometime soon and show the discrepancies.

Please do. Because I don't see any. I only see some recorded more detail.

[david]

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I will try to line the accounts up sometime soon and show the discrepancies.

Why don't I do it.

John 20:1-13
–Mary M–tomb early
–Notices stone gone
–ran to Peter and John
–Said: “they’ve taken Jesus”
–Peter and John run to tomb
–they entered tomb
–went home
–Mary stayed, weeping
-she saw 2 angels
[[This account doesn’t mention Mary going to tell the disciples about the angels or about Peter running back a second time to check the tomb]]

Mat 28:1-10
–Mary M went to grave
–Jehovah’s angel had rolled stone away and was sitting on it.
–clothing white as snow.
[[This account doesn’t include Peter and the faster runner going to see the tomb the first time.]]

Mark 16:1-7
–Mary M, etc, go to tomb
–Noticed stone rolled away
–entered tomb
–saw the angel in white robe.
[[This account doesn’t include Peter and the faster runner going to see the tomb the first time.]]

Luke 24
–Mary M, etc went to tomb.
–saw angels
–went and told disciples, but no one believed.
–Peter ran to tomb (again.)
[[This account doesn’t include Peter and the faster runner going to see the tomb the first time.]]

AGAIN, JUST BECAUSE SOME INCLUDE DETAILS OTHERS DIDN'T INCLUDE–THIS IS NOT WHAT WE WOULD CALL A DISCREPANCY.

[david]

I've noticed that Towshab, you jump around fast. You list “many” supposed contradictions, and then move on to more. Moving so fast, we sometimes make simple errors, (like forgetting there is no zero year.)

If we could please stick to this one contradiction of yours, that would be good.

dave

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2007,14:38)

I've noticed that Towshab, you jump around fast. You list “many” supposed contradictions, and then move on to more. Moving so fast, we sometimes make simple errors, (like forgetting there is no zero year.) If we could please stick to this one contradiction of yours, that would be good. dave

What other errors besides the 0 year? It did not affect the conflict in Luke anyways.

[Not3in1]

This stranger is not here to learn or to see his error…… He is here to cast as much doubt as he possibly can before he is cast out of here. He will continue to move fast with little tolerance for the truth.

Brother David, guard your gifts and save your pearls!

[david]

“What other errors”….

Well, this:

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I will try to line the accounts up

You should have first lined up the accounts, and then shown the contradiction, if there was any.

My point was:

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Moving so fast, we sometimes make simple errors

The fact is, there is no contradiction in that account–Just more detail in some of the accounts.

[Towshab]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 27 2007,14:53)

This stranger is not here to learn or to see his error…… He is here to cast as much doubt as he possibly can before he is cast out of here. He will continue to move fast with little tolerance for the truth. Brother David, guard your gifts and save your pearls!

Why will I be cast out? I have not been nasty or insulting. If you all do not like that I am listing evidence that the Christian bible does not line up with the Jewish Bible, then I will leave. I was already asked to by Kevin but I saw that some wanted to continue to discuss these things. Just ask me and I will leave.

[david]

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Why will I be cast out? I have not been nasty or insulting. If you all do not like that I am listing evidence that the Christian bible does not line up with the Jewish Bible, then I will leave.

When she says “cast out” I don't believe it is with regards to this forum. You have to be pretty crazy/insulting/etc to be removed from here.

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If you all do not like that I am listing evidence that the Christian bible does not line up with the Jewish Bible

If you have any such “evidence” please let us know. I would really like to stick with one subject if possible. I'm still wanting to know where the contradiction is in Jesus being missing from the tomb account.

david

[Towshab]

Here are the summations and contradictions of the gospel accounts of the empty tomb
—————————————-
Matthew
1)Mary M. and other Mary visit tomb
2)Earthquake from angel comes and rolls stone away, guards are scared of angel
3)Angel tells women not to be scared
4)Angel tells women that Jesus has risen, to tell the disciples, and that Jesus will be going to Galilee
5)Angels say that Jesus will meet the women in Galilee
6)Jesus meets the women (Mary M. and other Mary) on the way (not in Galilee!!) to the disciples
7)Jesus tells them to tell disciples to go to Galilee
8)Some of the guards tell chief priests of the events
9)Guards are bribed to lie
10)11 apostles meet Jesus in Galilee
Mark
1)Mary M., Mary mother of James, and Salome visit tomb
2)Stone was rolled back but there were no guards, no earthquake, and no angel sitting on the stone scaring both the guards and the women (contradiction from Matthew)
3)Angel inside of tomb instead of on stone
4)Angel tells women that Jesus has risen, to tell the disciples, and that Jesus will be going to Galilee
5)The women leave the tomb in fear, telling no one
6)The rest of Mark after 16:8 is a later addition to the original Mark text
7)No mention of meeting Jesus in the original Mark
Luke
1)‘They’ (no names listed) went to the tomb
2)Like Mark, no angel outside, no earthquake, no guards, stone already rolled away
3)In Luke, two men are inside the tomb. Matthew had an angel outside the tomb, Mark had one inside, and Luke has two inside.
4)Angels say that Jesus has risen but mentions Galilee in the past tense, not to meet Jesus there or tell the disciples.
5)They return to the 11, unlike the Mark story.
6)No mention of meeting Jesus on the way.
7)Mary M., Joanna (?), and Mary the mother of James tell the disciples of all these things. According to Matthew, Jesus met Mary M. on the way back from the tomb, but Luke does not mention it. Mary says nothing about going to Galilee or about meeting Jesus.
8)Peter goes to the tomb, stoops and looks in to see the linens, but does not go in.
9)Peter returns home.
10)Short story about Jesus meeting some disciples. According to the disciples, the women told of the angels but nothing was mentioned about meeting Jesus on the way. This contradicts Matthew.
11)In Luke, Jesus meets his disciples in Jerusalem, not Galilee!
12)Luke closes with Jesus ascending to heaven, but there is very little there to indicate he stayed 40 days. It appears to be at most a day or two. This will conflict with John.
John
1)Mary M is the only one to visit the tomb in John
2)Stone rolled away, but no angel, no earthquake, no guards
3)Mary M. returns to Peter and tells him that Jesus has been taken. In Luke, Mary M. is telling Peter that she saw angels but says nothing of this in John. She didn’t even know what had happened to Jesus! This contradicts Luke in a huge way.
4)Peter and the ‘disciple who Jesus loved’ run to the tomb. Instead of Peter stooping and looking in, the other disciple does. Another contradiction to Luke.
5)Peter goes in without looking in first. He sees the linens when he goes in while Luke says he saw them without going in. Another contradiction to Luke.
6)The disciples go back home without knowing that Jesus has risen. This contradicts Luke because Mary M. had told Peter before he came to the tomb what the angels had said. Still no angels at this point.
7)Mary M. finally goes in the tomb and sees the two angels of Luke. They tell her about Jesus. She turns around and Jesus is there. This contradicts Matthew because the women (only Mary here) met Jesus back on the way to the disciples. The angels say nothing of Galilee, neither does Jesus.
8)Jesus appears two times again to the disciples in John 20, but no mention of location.

So here are the glaring contradictions
1)Matthew has guards, an earthquake, and the women meeting the angel outside of the tomb. The guards and women are scared by the angel and the earthquake. The other gospels do not have these things
2)Mark has the women leaving, saying nothing to anyone.
3)Women, including Mary M. meet Jesus on the way to either Galilee or the disciples in Matthew. No mention in Mark or Luke. In John, Mary M. meets Jesus in the tomb, not on the way back.
4)In Matthew, disciples are to meet in Galilee, in Luke they meet in Jerusalem
5)One angel outside in Matthew, one inside in Mark, two inside in Luke and John.
6)Mary M. tells Peter about the encounter with angels and he goes to the tomb in Luke. In John, Mary M. does not know what has happened before she tells Peter. So in Luke, Peter goes to the tomb with the knowledge that angels said Jesus has risen, but has no knowledge in John.
7)No mention in Matthew about any of the disciples going to the tomb at all but only finding out about Jesus from the women and then meeting him in Galilee.
—————————————-

[Towshab]

Here is the contradictory verses that deal with Peter's knowledge before going to the tomb
————————
Luk 24:10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. {concerning the encounter with the angels}
Luk 24:11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
Luk 24:12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.

Joh 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
Joh 20:2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
Joh 20:3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
————————–
In Luke, Peter knows of the angels before going to the tomb because of Mary M. and her companions. in John, Mary has not encountered the angels yet and does not know about Jesus, so Peter would have no idea other than Jesus was gone.

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