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Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2007,20:25) Quote Ah, the ‘Suffering Servant’. Israel (Jacob), not Jesus. –Oct 30, tow
So you do believe that this is referring to Israel.
But notice what I said to you before:
Quote But does this explanation stand up to close scrutiny? It is true that in some contexts Isaiah does speak of Israel as God’s “servant.” But he speaks of Israel as a wayward, sinful servant. (Isaiah 42:19; 44:21, 22) The Encyclopaedia Judaica thus draws this contrast: “The real Israel is sinful and the Servant [of Isaiah 53], free of sin.”
–Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1971, Volume 9, page 65
And? Without the whole explanation provided by the Encyclopaedia Judaica I cannot sufficiently comment. There are obviously many more things it does say that either you do not have access too or you are purposely using a phrase or two out of the original context. Sort of like Christianity does to support Jesus as Moschiach.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 26 2007,20:48) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2007,13:25) Quote Ah, the ‘Suffering Servant’. Israel (Jacob), not Jesus. –Oct 30, tow
So you do believe that this is referring to Israel.
But notice what I said to you before:
Quote But does this explanation stand up to close scrutiny? It is true that in some contexts Isaiah does speak of Israel as God’s “servant.” But he speaks of Israel as a wayward, sinful servant. (Isaiah 42:19; 44:21, 22) The Encyclopaedia Judaica thus draws this contrast: “The real Israel is sinful and the Servant [of Isaiah 53], free of sin.”
–Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1971, Volume 9, page 65
DavidGood points.
I didnt realize he has now backed out of the Messiah being a suffering Messiah.
Where do you people get this? I never once supported such an idea. Is this your way of debating on this board, by putting words in peoples mouthes (virtually that is
)?Quote I tried to point out that its obvious that Isaiah 52 and 53 dosnt mention Jocob and only mentions Israel in one verse which clearly shows that the context is speaking of someone else besides Israel/Jacob. I said…
Isa 52:12
For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your reward.The God of Israel will be whose reward?
Not reward, rear guard. You seem to be purposely misleading because you changed the word in the KJV. See below.
Quote Seems like he is talking to someone besides Jacob. So now verse 13 as you show can not be referring to Israel because verse 12 clearly shows he is talking to someone else. Huh? Why? Because it says 'God of Israel'? Why would this be speaking of anyone else? And your bible version is flawed or you quoted it wrong. It appears the latter is true.
Isa 52:12 [KJV] For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.
Rereward – The rear guard of an army. (See http://www.answers.com/topic/rereward).
Here is the LXX version
Isa 52:12 [Apostles] For you shall not go forth with haste, neither go by flight; for the Lord shall go first in advance of you; and the God of Israel shall be the One that brings up your rear.
This pretty much agrees with the Judaica Press version
12. For not with haste shall you go forth and not in a flurry of flight shall you go, for the Lord goes before you, and your rear guard is the God of Israel.
Where do you get reward? Did you change the word on purpose? How intellectually dishonest of you.
Quote Of course I asked him to show me how it can be Israel/Jacob the nation that is spoke of in Isa 53… I have by showing who YHVH's servant is according to many more passages in Isaiah. I can't help you choose to ignore those in your effort to make Is 53 fit Jesus.
Quote I said…
But since you insist on your interpretatiion of Isa 53, then tell us when or how by “Israels” stripes “Israel” will be healed? Isa 53:5
How will Israels soul be an offering for sin. Isa 53:10
How will Israel bear the sins of many? Isa 53:12Israel has been the most persecuted people of history. Name me another. Besides that Is 53:10 is a very poor translation of the Hebrew. Or a purposely Christian one. Here is Judaica Press
10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
Israel has born the sin of many indeed. How many Jews have been killed because of your own bible? How many Jews were killed by Hitler?
Quote He has not explained this but evaded it. I still have to answer him on his post and when I feel like it I will. 
Have fun with this one then
.Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 27 2007,18:59) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2007,20:25) Quote Ah, the ‘Suffering Servant’. Israel (Jacob), not Jesus. –Oct 30, tow
So you do believe that this is referring to Israel.
But notice what I said to you before:
Quote But does this explanation stand up to close scrutiny? It is true that in some contexts Isaiah does speak of Israel as God’s “servant.” But he speaks of Israel as a wayward, sinful servant. (Isaiah 42:19; 44:21, 22) The Encyclopaedia Judaica thus draws this contrast: “The real Israel is sinful and the Servant [of Isaiah 53], free of sin.”
–Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1971, Volume 9, page 65
And? Without the whole explanation provided by the Encyclopaedia Judaica I cannot sufficiently comment. There are obviously many more things it does say that either you do not have access too or you are purposely using a phrase or two out of the original context. Sort of like Christianity does to support Jesus as Moschiach.
Regardless, the statement by this encyclopedia is true:“The real Israel is sinful and the Servant [of Isaiah 53], free of sin.”
Isn't it?
So it doesn't match up.
Quote David Good points.
I didnt realize he has now backed out of the Messiah being a suffering Messiah.
He has never believed the Messiah was a suffering messiah. What it seemed to me he was backing out of was the possibility that the servant in Is 53 was the Messiah.
He specifically said that I made a case for a suffering messiah and I was discussing Is 53 at the time. IT is this possibility that he no longer wants to consider.
Quote Where do you people get this? I never once supported such an idea.
You're right. see above post.Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2007,19:45) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 27 2007,18:59) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2007,20:25) Quote Ah, the ‘Suffering Servant’. Israel (Jacob), not Jesus. –Oct 30, tow
So you do believe that this is referring to Israel.
But notice what I said to you before:
Quote But does this explanation stand up to close scrutiny? It is true that in some contexts Isaiah does speak of Israel as God’s “servant.” But he speaks of Israel as a wayward, sinful servant. (Isaiah 42:19; 44:21, 22) The Encyclopaedia Judaica thus draws this contrast: “The real Israel is sinful and the Servant [of Isaiah 53], free of sin.”
–Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1971, Volume 9, page 65
And? Without the whole explanation provided by the Encyclopaedia Judaica I cannot sufficiently comment. There are obviously many more things it does say that either you do not have access too or you are purposely using a phrase or two out of the original context. Sort of like Christianity does to support Jesus as Moschiach.
Regardless, the statement by this encyclopedia is true:“The real Israel is sinful and the Servant [of Isaiah 53], free of sin.”
Isn't it?
So it doesn't match up.
I don't know. I don't have a copy of the Encyclopaedia Judaica to verify. It may be like the bogus stuff that was linked by you concerning passages from the Talmud for all I know.Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 27 2007,18:52) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2007,20:21) I'm not trying to make a case for the resurrected Messiah yet. I'm trying to get you, who has a very Jewish mentality on this that the Messiah would have to suffer. Also, here you said I made a case for a suffering messiah. But it's based largely on Is 53, and now you have backed out of the idea that the one spoken of there could ever be the Messiah.
Are you thinking of someone else or are you imagining this? I never even suggested that Is 52-53 is about a single person. Is 52-53 is about Israel plain and simple. Please find a single post from me supporting the idea that this passage is about any one single person.
Quote As what I posted states, some first-century rabbis (and a number since then) identified the Suffering Servant with the Messiah.
–The Book of Isaiah, commentary by Amos Chakham, 1984, page 575;
–The Targum of Isaiah, edited by J. F. Stenning, 1949, page 178;
–The Suffering Servant in Deutero-Isaiah, by Christopher R. North, First Edition, 1948, pages 11-15;
–Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1971, Volume 9, page 65.
What am I supposed to run out and buy those books? Please list more than page references from some obscure books.
See 6th post on page 20. Maybe I misunderstood you. It is me quoting a post from oct 31. And your responce was to say that I make a case for a suffering messiah.Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2007,19:49) Quote David Good points.
I didnt realize he has now backed out of the Messiah being a suffering Messiah.
He has never believed the Messiah was a suffering messiah. What it seemed to me he was backing out of was the possibility that the servant in Is 53 was the Messiah.
He specifically said that I made a case for a suffering messiah and I was discussing Is 53 at the time. IT is this possibility that he no longer wants to consider.
I never wanted to consider it in the first place.Quote What am I supposed to run out and buy those books? Please list more than page references from some obscure books. The encyclopedia judaica isn't really that obscure.
Quote I never wanted to consider it in the first place. I know you don't “want” to consider it because it is detramental to your beliefs, but you did say that I presented a case for a suffering messiah.
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 28 2007,12:52) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2007,19:45) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 27 2007,18:59) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2007,20:25) Quote Ah, the ‘Suffering Servant’. Israel (Jacob), not Jesus. –Oct 30, tow
So you do believe that this is referring to Israel.
But notice what I said to you before:
Quote But does this explanation stand up to close scrutiny? It is true that in some contexts Isaiah does speak of Israel as God’s “servant.” But he speaks of Israel as a wayward, sinful servant. (Isaiah 42:19; 44:21, 22) The Encyclopaedia Judaica thus draws this contrast: “The real Israel is sinful and the Servant [of Isaiah 53], free of sin.”
–Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1971, Volume 9, page 65
And? Without the whole explanation provided by the Encyclopaedia Judaica I cannot sufficiently comment. There are obviously many more things it does say that either you do not have access too or you are purposely using a phrase or two out of the original context. Sort of like Christianity does to support Jesus as Moschiach.
Regardless, the statement by this encyclopedia is true:“The real Israel is sinful and the Servant [of Isaiah 53], free of sin.”
Isn't it?
So it doesn't match up.
I don't know. I don't have a copy of the Encyclopaedia Judaica to verify. It may be like the bogus stuff that was linked by you concerning passages from the Talmud for all I know.
Who cares? do you have a Bible? What I'm saying is that what this encyclopedia says is obvious:“The real Israel is sinful and the Servant [of Isaiah 53], free of sin.”
Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2007,19:53) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 27 2007,18:52) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2007,20:21) I'm not trying to make a case for the resurrected Messiah yet. I'm trying to get you, who has a very Jewish mentality on this that the Messiah would have to suffer. Also, here you said I made a case for a suffering messiah. But it's based largely on Is 53, and now you have backed out of the idea that the one spoken of there could ever be the Messiah.
Are you thinking of someone else or are you imagining this? I never even suggested that Is 52-53 is about a single person. Is 52-53 is about Israel plain and simple. Please find a single post from me supporting the idea that this passage is about any one single person.
Quote As what I posted states, some first-century rabbis (and a number since then) identified the Suffering Servant with the Messiah.
–The Book of Isaiah, commentary by Amos Chakham, 1984, page 575;
–The Targum of Isaiah, edited by J. F. Stenning, 1949, page 178;
–The Suffering Servant in Deutero-Isaiah, by Christopher R. North, First Edition, 1948, pages 11-15;
–Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1971, Volume 9, page 65.
What am I supposed to run out and buy those books? Please list more than page references from some obscure books.
See 6th post on page 20. Maybe I misunderstood you. It is me quoting a post from oct 31. And your responce was to say that I make a case for a suffering messiah.
This statement?Quote You make a case for a suffering messiah now see if you can make a case from the Jewish scriptures for a resurrected messiah who will return after saying he'll return quickly . Looking over what I was responding to, I merely said this because you were making a case (not that I agreed) for a suffering messiah but I wanted you to make a case for a ressurected messiah. That stops Christians in their tracks every time.
Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2007,19:54) Quote What am I supposed to run out and buy those books? Please list more than page references from some obscure books. The encyclopedia judaica isn't really that obscure.
Regardless, I won't be purchasing a copy any time soon. I see my local library has a copy so if I should have the free time i will stop by and check this reference out. Cross your fingers so you won't have egg on your face should this prove to be false.Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2007,19:56) Quote I never wanted to consider it in the first place. I know you don't “want” to consider it because it is detramental to your beliefs, but you did say that I presented a case for a suffering messiah.
Don't flatter yourself. I don't want to consider it because it is a waste of time. Is 52-53 is not messianic, its about Israel. You can make a case all day and if I feel like it I will show where you are wrong. Or I may just let your words linger because I note you have a tendency of digging your own holes.Quote Is 52-53 is not messianic, its about Israel. You can make a case all day and if I feel like it I will show where you are wrong. do you disagree with this statement:
“The real Israel is sinful and the Servant [of Isaiah 53], free of sin.”
I'm not asking you if you if you care where the statement is from. Do you agree?
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 27 2007,11:57) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2007,17:17) Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2007,10:29) towshab, I'm wondering where I can find the geneological records that can be traced back to david? Are there any websites that you know of that have these?
Also, wondering about this.
Not at the moment. I've tried to find something like this myself. Many Jews are not concerned about this because lineage will be a minor thing IF someone actually starts fulfilling messianic prophecies. Since no one has yet, lineage is a moot point.
Do they or don't they exist?You appear unable to find them.
Because if they don't exist, and the Messiah was to come through that line…. well, your whole argument crumbles.
I was under the belief that those records were destroyed in 70 ce, thus making it impossible for another to come along and claim to be the Messiah.
If you are unable to find them, perhaps I'll try.
Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2007,21:47) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 27 2007,11:57) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2007,17:17) Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2007,10:29) towshab, I'm wondering where I can find the geneological records that can be traced back to david? Are there any websites that you know of that have these?
Also, wondering about this.
Not at the moment. I've tried to find something like this myself. Many Jews are not concerned about this because lineage will be a minor thing IF someone actually starts fulfilling messianic prophecies. Since no one has yet, lineage is a moot point.
Do they or don't they exist?You appear unable to find them.
Because if they don't exist, and the Messiah was to come through that line…. well, your whole argument crumbles.
I was under the belief that those records were destroyed in 70 ce, thus making it impossible for another to come along and claim to be the Messiah.
If you are unable to find them, perhaps I'll try.
What whole argument? Let's see: Jesus did not fulfill a single Messianic prophecy so his lineage did not really matter. But if he had, his lineage disqualifies him. Quite simple really.As the popular saying goes (and resurrected here lately) which came first, the chicken or the egg? One or the other is fine but Jesus happens to be more of a turkey
.Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2007,21:37) Quote Is 52-53 is not messianic, its about Israel. You can make a case all day and if I feel like it I will show where you are wrong. do you disagree with this statement:
“The real Israel is sinful and the Servant [of Isaiah 53], free of sin.”
I'm not asking you if you if you care where the statement is from. Do you agree?
No. What particular verse or phrase would lead to such an erroneous conclusion?Taken from the 3 days 3 nights thread
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Gee if that is really you in your avatar I almost feel bad refuting your words because you are very attractive. But I cannot allow that to waylay me!
Quote (seeking the truth @ Nov. 27 2007,21:31) Glad to hear from you Mrs. what we believe only came from Yaweh, because it perfectly is in harmony with the scriptures. Yeshua died on the Preparation day NOT ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE UNLEAVEND BREAD..(15th) according to the scriptures and the laws of the Prohphets given by Yaweh.. Yeshua died EXACTLY how the Lamb was to die at the same exact time according to the scriptures. It should not be hard to believe this everything else the prophets said about him was true as being Christ the Messiah, the Son of God… The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger
Isaiah 40:3 CROSS REFERECE TO Matthew 3:1-2Yes but what of the fact that John the Baptist denied being both Elijah or a prophet?
Joh 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
All in one verse John the B crumbles all of the hopes and dreams of the messiah wannabe Jesus of Nazareth.
Quote 2. The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem
Micah 5:2 CR Matthew 2:1Out of context. Mic 5:2 speaks of the tribe not the physical location. Jesus is of the right tribe according to Matthew but he is in the curse bloodline as well. OH well.
Quote 3. The Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah
Gen 49:10 Luke 3:23-34 and Matt1:1-16Ditto. See above.
Quote 4. The Messiah would enter Jerusalem on a colt
Zech 9:9 CR Luke 19:35-37Or in the case of Matthew 21, a colt AND an ass. Yikes. Jesus should have been in cirque de soleil for his acrobatics.
Quote 5. The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend
Ps41:9 CR Matt 26:47-50When was Judas ever considered a friend? Book, chapter, and verse please. The word for Judas is the same as Judah, 'ioudas' which is the root of the word Judaism or Judah-ism. Get the connection? The GT is very anti-semitic.
Quote 6. The Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver
Zec11:12 CR Matt 26:14-15Did you actually read any of these so you would not be embarrassed? I will write it off as youthful indiscretion. The two passages ate totally unrelated.
Quote 7. The Messiah would be spit upon and beaten
Isaiah 50:6 CR Matthew 26:67-68Wow, just like all people who were crucified. I'm SURE he was the only one.
Quote 8. The Messiah would be wounded by His enemies
Isa 53:5:CR Matt 27:26Is 53 is not messianic. It is about Israel.
Quote 9. The Messiah would be silent before His accusers
Isa 53:7 CR Matt 27:12-14He spoke. Read John. Is 53 is not messianic.
Quote 10. The betrayal money thrown in the temple and given for a potters field
Zec 11:13 CR Matt 27:5-7Please please read both passages and compare. Take off the Christian glasses first. There is nothing about purchasing a potter's field in Zec 11. Or any field.
Quote 11. The Messiah would have his hands and feet pierced
Ps 22:16 CR Jn 20:25 Luke 23:33A dishonest translation. 'karah ariy' means 'like a lion' not 'they pierced'. how can we be sure? The KJV (and others) only translate this as 'they pierced' in Ps 22:16 ALONE. This was done to match the GT. Shameful, really.
Quote 12. The Messiah would be crucified with thieves
Is 53:12 CR Matthew 27:38There is nothing about nothing about being crucified in Is 53:12.
Quote Does the accuracy of the “12 prophecies fulfilled by Yeshua” convince that HE truly is the Son of God? I would think so… So if these Prophecy are true what are the odds of him fulfilling the ceromonial sabbaths of the OT as the “Lamb of God”?
Mrs..once again I'm so glad to hear from you and thank you for your reply, I'm glad to know Yaweh is also using you to spread the truth in these dark times where the church is “luke warm.”…Good night and God bless!
Wh'ever.
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