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Or maybe you believe that we just magically appeared and GOD wondered up and found us here?
I really don't care what you believe…but you know what I believe…and thats not going to change…so we should stop talking cause you don't believe me and I don't believe you…all we are doing now is satisfying your urge to argue about it all.
I will have no part of it.
Hi Samuel
Quote You should let go of some of that Poison that is filling your soul. I don’t mean to butt in when you’re insulting another, but can you explain to me, since you have said it, why some christians make this kind of ridiculous accusation? Ask some challenging questions and all of a sudden the diagnosis is that you are full of poison / evil / Satan’s spirit. Is it a diversion tactic? I personally don’t find terror in it because all these concepts of evil are christian inventions anyway. Am I being unfair?
Stuart
Quote (Samuel @ Nov. 21 2007,01:49) So let me get this straight…? Your making fun of us for believing in Jesus?
And you don't believe in Satan, Jesus, obviously not Hell, Angels?
Then I guess if you were not a Man you would not believe in Man either. But since you are a man you have to accept the fact that Man does indeed exist.
Hell is 'sheol' which means the grave. Not some place the devil and his minions hang out.
I believe in angels. 'Satan' means 'adversary'. Even King David was called a 'satan' one time.
1Sa 29:4 And the princes of the Philistines were wroth with him; and the princes of the Philistines said unto him, Make this fellow return, that he {David} may go again to his place which thou hast appointed him, and let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he be an adversary {'satan'} to us: for wherewith should he reconcile himself unto his master? should it not be with the heads of these men?
And I am not making fun of anyone. I used to be where you are so why would I make fun?
Quote So, I guess you believe that just because you believer in the One GOD you are saved and going to heaven or your going to get 72 virgins or whatever after life you believe in…or do you even believe in an after Life? Haha you are confused. That is an islamic belief about the 72 virgins. Just read more of the 'old testament' without trying to insert Jesus in every passage and you'll get a better idea of what I believe.
I belief in the afterlife. It is called 'the word to come'. But like Jews I don't think on it much. A person should spend his life bettering who he is here not trying to store up treasures in heaven. That sounds so selfish.
Quote Do you even pray? What do you do to get forgiven of Sins? Or I guess you don't believe in Sin either…so therefore there is no need to get forgiveness of sin? If you'll look just a few posts before this one and follow the links I have listed the means to achieve atonement for sins. And yes I pray. I don't need a middleman to get to YHVH. Again please read more of your 'old testament' because it appears you don't read that much of it.
Quote I can pick what you believe a part just as easily as you can pick what I believe apart. *Turns other check*
You didn't do a very good job because you are obviously oblivious to what I believe. If you want to 'pick apart' what I believe you need to find out more of what G-d taught His people in your 'old testament'.Quote (Samuel @ Nov. 21 2007,01:56) I mean surely your not naive enough to think that the only thing GOD has ever created is Man…and all there is is Man and GOD? Did you ever read Genesis? Please reread the first few chapters.
Quote I mean look how big the Universe is…and there are more than one universe. Obviously GOD has made other things besides us. What you believe is just as confusing as what you say that we believe is confusing to you.
Look I don't know who has you this agitated, But its not my fault.
Who is agitated? It seems you are at this point.
Quote Even if you don't believe in Christ we are all still Brothers…brother. If all you believer is GOD and MAN…then Obviously we are MAN and we all came from the same GOD…which still makes us all brothers in GOD as well. I can accept that. I'm just used to that being a Christian thing that's all. I rarely hear it outside of Christianity or certain clubs (not dance clubs).
Quote You should let go of some of that Poison that is filling your soul. Not only does it make for High Blood Pressure…But it makes you somewhat unpleasant…and people don't like talking to unpleasant people.
Haha, kettle meet pot. Seems you are the one getting nasty. I have no poison in my soul. If I do I seem to be still alive. See I can fight off poison without being a Christian! I think I'll go handle a snake and see what happens with that.Quote (Samuel @ Nov. 21 2007,02:00) Or maybe you believe that we just magically appeared and GOD wondered up and found us here? I really don't care what you believe…but you know what I believe…and thats not going to change…so we should stop talking cause you don't believe me and I don't believe you…all we are doing now is satisfying your urge to argue about it all.
I will have no part of it.
Didn't you say once already you would stop talking to me? Or are you actually talking to Stu? You didn't address your posts.Quote (Stu @ Nov. 21 2007,04:02) Hi Samuel Quote You should let go of some of that Poison that is filling your soul. I don’t mean to butt in when you’re insulting another, but can you explain to me, since you have said it, why some christians make this kind of ridiculous accusation? Ask some challenging questions and all of a sudden the diagnosis is that you are full of poison / evil / Satan’s spirit. Is it a diversion tactic? I personally don’t find terror in it because all these concepts of evil are christian inventions anyway. Am I being unfair?
Stuart
Stu,It is definitely a Christian thing to do. He is not the first Christian who has said similar things about me but I think you understand that just like Martin Luther, when Christians fail to convert someone they then go on to talk poorly of them. You should read some of the things that Martin Luther wrote about Jews. It would make your skin crawl.
Conversation is over for me ….
Yeah I am mad actually…I'm mad at myself for ever trying to talk to you. I should not have even tried to talk to you…you Stu, and Issiah all have that same sort of pretentious candor about you. You all do the same thing you take every single sentence that someone uses in their post and make a little catchy “Come-Back” “Refute” to point out how outlandishly WRONG you believe they are…and then proceed to point out that you are ever more correct than any one else could possibly ever be…that “Holier-Than Thou Are complex”.
Not only do you all do this to me…you do it to ever single person you talk to on these forums. If you do not believe what we believe you should leave after conferring with the folks here and discovering that. Because it appears to me that you just want to see how many “So-Called Christians” you can make MAD. Like its a game for you or something.
My FAITH is not a GAME…and it is not open for DEBATE…like I've told Stu and Issiah.
I'm sorry. But unless you can approach me in a more civil manor than we are through talking…just like I've told the other two.
God bless you….Good luck with your debating and arguing.
Oh and the poison thing…even if you don't believe in any religion whatsoever…being mad, angry, frustrated, upset, or just have a chip on your shoulder…
Is still a POISON…its not just some religious hokus pokus!
Being this way makes your blood pressure go up…and causes you to have heart problems/health problems.
It also makes other people not want to socialize with you.
What the problem is here being as how you've already made the point to point out several things that you think that only Christians do…is your profiling Christians, or stereo-typing them.
Not all Christians do the same things. There are different beliefs within the Christian belief. Maybe you do not realize this…or maybe you do…the fact is neither here nor there.
They fact is that you should not assume that every Christian is just like any other Christian you've ever met.
And honestly …yes I've read the whole Old Testament. And I'll probably wind up reading it again.
And I'll even be more honest with you…while we are being honest…I really don't care what it is you believe…I mean I would listen to you just to be nice and not hurt your feelings, but its going to go in one ear and out the other. Because I feel that its not right.
Just like you feel that I'm not right. So why are we even talking in the first place? Why are you even still on this forum board picking at the Christian belief. Is it because you feel that maybe …just maybe it is right. Or, is it because you just want to upset Christians? Or, do you feel you are the one with the Truth?
What ever the case is you really should work on your people skills. Talking over people, and making them feel inferior is not going to take you very far…at best all it is going to do is fuel your ego. Which is Pride, and also is not something the one GOD you do believe in would have us act like.
And that same spirit you have tries to rub off on every one you come around. Its bad…it makes me feel bad…like I have the Heebie Jeebies or something. I must quit talking to you before you get me sucked into your trap of argument. And have me all upset…I can not and must not let that happen…I have to stop it now.
Quote (Samuel @ Nov. 22 2007,04:16) Its bad…it makes me feel bad…like I have the Heebie Jeebies or something. I must quit talking to you before you get me sucked into your trap of argument. And have me all upset…I can not and must not let that happen…I have to stop it now.
Brother Sam,Try not to take what Tow is saying personal. You are a dear brother and your fruit is evident to all.
Personal attacks come because it's not just cyber-space, it's real life to most of us here. We log many hours building relationships with stranger's. We have become a family of believer's (albeit different beliefs – but we are still family). And where you have family, you will always have some sort of bickering. It's human nature.
Quote Hell is 'sheol' which means the grave. Not some place the devil and his minions hang out. –towshab.
Wow, we agree on something.
Quote I believe in angels. 'Satan' means 'adversary'. Even King David was called a 'satan' one time.
Right, and the word “angel” is the exact same word as “messenger” and Adam as man. Before, you hinted at the idea that you don't believe adam was an actual individual. I take it you believe the whole genesis account is therefore an allegory, is that what you believe?
Because it seems to me that the Bible account presents Adam as a historical person. It gives us the names of his wife and some of his children. It tells us in detail what he did, what he said, when he lived, and when he died.I know I've commented on these things before, but I want to discuss them.
By Jesus’ day the Jews had suffered for centuries under a series of harsh Gentile rulers. They longed for a political deliverer.
But to the great disappointment of the Jews, Jesus was no political hero. On the contrary, he claimed that his Kingdom ‘was no part of the world.’ (John 18:36)
Furthermore, Jesus did not then usher in the glorious Messianic age foreseen by the prophet Isaiah. (Isaiah 11:4-9)
And when Jesus was put to death as a criminal, the nation as a whole lost interest in him.
Undeterred by these events, Jesus’ followers continued to proclaim him as the Messiah. What accounted for their remarkable zeal? It was the belief that Jesus’ death fulfilled prophecy, specifically the prophecy of Isaiah 52:13–53:12. This reads in part:
“Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, . . . for he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground . . . He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: He was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried . . . He was crushed because of our iniquities: The chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed. All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way . . . He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, . . . he was cut off out of the land of the living. . . . And they made his grave with the wicked.”—JP.
While some have asserted that this servant spoken of was Israel, Israel was a sinful servant. (Isaiah 42:19; 44:21, 22)
Encyclopaedia Judaica draws this contrast: “The real Israel is sinful and the Servant [of Isaiah 53], free of sin.” (Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1971, Volume 9, page 65.)
The Suffering Servant in Rabbinical Writings
Over the centuries a number of respected Jewish authorities have applied the prophecy of Isaiah 52:13–53:12 to the Messiah:
The Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel (1st century C.E.). In its rendering of Isaiah 52:13, the Targum says: “Behold, my servant, the Anointed One (or, the Messiah) shall prosper.”
The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 98b) (c. 3rd century C.E.): “The Messiah—what is his name? . . . The Rabbis say, The leprous one [; those] of the house of Rabbi [say, The sick one], as it is said, ‘Surely he hath borne our sicknesses.’”—Compare Isaiah 53:4.24
Moses Maimonides (Rambam) (12th century): “What is to be the manner of Messiah’s advent, and where will be the place of his first appearance? . . . In the words of Isaiah [52:15], when describing the manner in which the kings will hearken to him, At him kings will shut their mouth.”
Moses ibn Crispin Cohen (14th century): “I am pleased to interpret [Isaiah 53], in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis, of the King Messiah, and will be careful, so far as I am able, to adhere to the literal sense: thus, possibly, I shall be free from the forced and farfetched interpretations of which others [Jewish commentators] have been guilty.”
In what way did the servant suffer ‘because of our iniquities’? (Isaiah 53:5)
What do you think towshab?Thousands of Jews came to see undeniable parallels between the Suffering Servant and Jesus of Nazareth. Like that Servant, Jesus was of humble origin. Ultimately, he was despised and shunned. Though he carried out no political conquest, he bore the diseases of others, miraculously curing their ailments. Though innocent, he died as a result of judicial miscarriage—a fate he accepted without protest.
Towshab, why would Messiah have to die?
Explains Isaiah 53:10:
“But the LORD chose to crush him by disease, that, if he made himself an offering for guilt, he might see offspring and have long life, and that through him the LORD’s purpose might prosper.” (Ta)This alluded to the Levitical practice of offering up animal victims to atone for sin or guilt. Messiah would suffer a disgraceful death, but like a sacrificial victim, his death would have atoning merit.
If Messiah died, though, how could he fulfill the prophecies about his glorious rule, much less “see offspring and have long life”?
Logically, by a resurrection from the dead. (Compare 1 Kings 17:17-24.)Messiah’s resurrection would also resolve the seeming contradiction between Daniel 7:13, which predicted that the Messiah would triumphantly come on the clouds of heaven, and Zechariah 9:9, which said that he would humbly arrive on an ass.
The Talmud tried to explain this paradox by asserting: “If they are meritorious, he will come with the clouds of heaven; if not, lowly and riding upon an ass.” (Sanhedrin 98a)
But this would mean that the prophecy at either Daniel 7:13 or Zechariah 9:9 would remain unfulfilled.
[/B]Yet, Messiah’s resurrection would allow him to fulfill both prophecies.
Initially, he would come humbly to suffer and die. After his resurrection, he would return in glory and usher in the heavenly Messianic rule.Before, towshab, it seemed obvious to me that Jesus was mentioned in the tulmud, but you didn't believe this, as I remember.
Though Jesus is barely mentioned in the Talmud, what little is said tries “to belittle the person of Jesus by ascribing to him illegitimate birth, magic, and a shameful death.”—The Jewish Encyclopedia, 1910, Volume VII, page 170.Says Israeli scholar Pinchas Lapide: “Talmudic passages about Jesus . . . were mutilated, distorted, or obliterated by church censors.” It is thus “more than likely that Jesus originally had a much greater impact on rabbinical literature than the fragments we have today bear witness to.”—Israelis, Jews, and Jesus,by Pinchas Lapide, 1979, pages 73-4.
Something else, Towshab. You look at Gen 3:15 and see allegory.
Yet, The Palestinian Targum applied the fulfillment of Gen 3:15 to “the day of King Messiah.”
Neophyti 1, Targum Palestinense, Ms de la Biblioteca Vaticana, Génesis, 1968, Volume I, pages 503-4; The Messiah: An Aramaic Interpretation, by Samson H. Levey, 1974, pages 2-3.Under the pressure of Christendom’s conversion efforts, Judaism reassessed its views.
Many Scripture texts that had long been applied to the Messiah were reinterpreted.
The Suffering Servant in Deutero-Isaiah, by Christopher R. North, First Edition, 1948, page 18; The Jewish People and Jesus Christ, by Jakób Jocz, 1954 (first published in 1949), pages 205-7, 282; The Pentateuch and Haftorahs, edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz, 1929-36, Volume I, page 202; Palestinian Judaism in New Testament Times, by Werner Förster, translated by Gordon E. Harris, 1964, pages 199-200As modern times dawned, under the influence of higher criticism of the Bible, some Jewish scholars concluded that the Messianic hope does not appear in the Bible at all!
Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1971, Volume 11, page 1407; U.S. Catholic, December 1983, page 20.The Talmud says: “When thou seest a generation overwhelmed by many troubles as by a river, await [the Messiah].” (Sanhedrin 98a)
I believe the generation beginning in the past century is a very troubled generation.
The Messianic hope was born and nurtured with the Jews. Among them that hope has grown dim. Its brilliance has been nearly extinguished by centuries of suffering and disappointment. Ironically, millions among the nations, or Gentiles, have come to seek and ultimately to embrace a Messiah. Is it just a coincidence that Isaiah said of the Messiah:
“Unto him shall the nations [Gentiles] seek”? (Isaiah 11:10, JP)
Should not Jews also seek the Messiah themselves?
It is in vain, however, to seek a future Messiah. Were he to arrive, how could he establish himself as a bona fide descendant of King David?
Though such records existed in Jesus’ day, his claim of being a legitimate descendant of David was never successfully challenged. (See The Life of Flavius Josephus, 1:1-6.)
Could any future Messianic claimant ever produce such credentials? One must therefore seek the Messiah who came in the past.
Ok, for the second half of that post, imagine everything not bold as bold and everything bold as not bold.
thanks.
towshab, I'm wondering where I can find the geneological records that can be traced back to david? Are there any websites that you know of that have these?
Over the centuries, Bible prophets supplied specific requirements that the Messiah would have to meet, identifying him unmistakably. As the prophets supplied these details over the centuries, a picture of the Messiah gradually emerged.
Henry H. Halley observed:
“Suppose a number of men of Different Countries, who had never seen, nor in any way communicated with, one another, would walk into a room, and each lay down a piece of Carved Marble, which pieces, when Fitted Together, would make a Perfect statue—how account for it in any other way than that Some One Person had drawn the Specifications, and had sent to each man his part?”
“How can this Amazing Composite of Jesus’ Life and Work, put together by Different Writers of Different Centuries, Ages Before Jesus Came, be explained on any other basis than that ONE SUPERHUMAN MIND supervised the Writing?”A defining Messianic detail appeared in the book of Daniel. Pinpointing the very year of the Messiah’s appearance, the prophecy states: “You should know and have the insight that from the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times.”—Daniel 9:25.
Persian King Artaxerxes gave “the word” to restore and rebuild Jerusalem in the 20th year of his reign. His reign began in 474 B.C.E., so his 20th year would be 455 B.C.E. (Nehemiah 2:1-8) Thus, a period of 69 (7 plus 62) prophetic weeks would separate the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem and the appearance of the Messiah. Sixty-nine literal weeks, of course, equal only 483 days, or less than two years. But when the stated prophetic rule of “a day for a year” is applied, it reveals that the Messiah would appear 483 years later, in 29 C.E.—Ezekiel 4:6.
Hey, isn't that the year Jesus was baptized (annointed) with holy spirit, becoming the Christ (annointed one)?
Let's look at this more closely.
The 70 weeks are a prophetic time period referred to at Daniel 9:24-27 during which Jerusalem would be rebuilt and Messiah would appear and then be cut off; following that period the city as well as the holy place would be made desolate.
In the first year of Darius “the son of Ahasuerus of the seed of the Medes,” the prophet Daniel discerned from the prophecy of Jeremiah that the time for the release of the Jews from Babylon and their return to Jerusalem was near. Daniel then diligently sought Jehovah in prayer, in harmony with Jeremiah’s words: “‘And you will certainly call me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. And you will actually seek me and find me, for you will search for me with all your heart. And I will let myself be found by you,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. . . . ‘And I will bring you back to the place from which I caused you to go into exile.’”—Jer 29:10-14; Da 9:1-4.
While Daniel was praying, Jehovah sent his angel Gabriel with a prophecy that nearly all Bible commentators accept as Messianic, though there are many variations in their understanding of it. Gabriel said:
“There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. And you should know and have the insight that from the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. And he must keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate.”—Da 9:24-27.If these were literal weeks of seven days each, either the prophecy failed to be fulfilled, which is an impossibility (Isa 55:10, 11; Heb 6:18), or else the Messiah came more than 24 centuries ago, in the days of the Persian Empire, and was not identified. In the latter case, the other scores of qualifications specified in the Bible for the Messiah were not met or fulfilled. So it is evident that the 70 weeks were symbolic of a much longer time. Certainly the events described in the prophecy were of such a nature that they could not have occurred in a literal 70 weeks, or a little more than a year and four months. The majority of Bible scholars agree that the “weeks” of the prophecy are weeks of years. Some translations read “seventy weeks of years” (AT, Mo, RS);
; the Tanakh, a new Bible translation published in 1985 by the Jewish Publication Society, also includes this rendering in a footnote.—See Da 9:24, ftnWhen did these weeks begin?
Nehemiah was granted permission by King Artaxerxes of Persia, in the 20th year of his rule, in the month of Nisan, to rebuild the wall and the city of Jerusalem. (Ne 2:1, 5, 7, 8) In his calculations as to the reign of Artaxerxes, Nehemiah apparently used a calendar year that began with the month Tishri (September-October), as does the Jews’ present civil calendar, and ended with the month Elul (August-September) as the 12th month. Whether this was his own reckoning or the manner of reckoning employed for certain purposes in Persia is not known.Some may object to the above statement and may point to Nehemiah 7:73, where Nehemiah speaks of Israel as being gathered in their cities in the seventh month—the monthly order here being based on a Nisan-to-Nisan year. But Nehemiah was here copying from “the book of genealogical enrollment of those who came up at the first” with Zerubbabel, in 537 B.C.E. (Ne 7:5) Again, Nehemiah describes the celebration of the Festival of Booths in his time as taking place in the seventh month. (Ne 8:9, 13-18) This was only fitting because the account says that they found what Jehovah commanded “written in the law,” and in that law, at Leviticus 23:39-43, it says that the Festival of Booths was to be in “the seventh month” (that is, of the sacred calendar, running from Nisan to Nisan).
However, as evidence indicating that Nehemiah may have used a fall-to-fall year in referring to certain events, we can compare Nehemiah 1:1-3 with 2:1-8. In the first passage he tells of receiving the bad news about Jerusalem’s condition, in Chislev (third month in the civil calendar and ninth in the sacred calendar) in Artaxerxes’ 20th year. In the second, he presents his request to the king that he be permitted to go and rebuild Jerusalem, and he is granted permission in the month Nisan (seventh in the civil calendar and first in the sacred), but still in the 20th year of Artaxerxes. So Nehemiah was obviously not counting the years of Artaxerxes’ reign on a Nisan-to-Nisan basis.
To establish the time for the 20th year of Artaxerxes, we go back to the end of the reign of his father and predecessor Xerxes, who died in the latter part of 475 B.C.E. Artaxerxes’ accession year thus began in 475 B.C.E., and his first regnal year would be counted from 474 B.C.E., as other historical evidence indicates. The 20th year of Artaxerxes’ rule would accordingly be 455 B.C.E.
The prophecy says there would be 69 weeks of years “from the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusal
em until Messiah the Leader.” (Da 9:25) Jesus came to John and was baptized, thereby becoming the Anointed One, Messiah the Leader, in the early autumn of the year 29 C.E. ((Jesus evidently was born in the month of Ethanim (September-October) of the year 2 B.C.E., was baptized about the same time of the year in 29 C.E., and died about 3:00 p.m. on Friday, the 14th day of the spring month of Nisan (March-April), 33 C.E. The basis for these dates is as follows:Jesus was born approximately six months after the birth of his relative John (the Baptizer), during the rule of Roman Emperor Caesar Augustus (31 B.C.E.–14 C.E.) and the Syrian governorship of Quirinius, and toward the close of the reign of Herod the Great over Judea.—Mt 2:1, 13, 20-22; Lu 1:24-31, 36; 2:1, 2, 7.))
[[Two registrations under Quirinius. Bible critics have said that the only census taken while Publius Sulpicius Quirinius was governor of Syria was about 6 C.E., which event sparked a rebellion by Judas the Galilean and the Zealots. (Ac 5:37) This was really the second registration under Quirinius, for inscriptions discovered at and near Antioch revealed that some years earlier Quirinius had served as the emperor’s legate in Syria. (The Bearing of Recent Discovery on the Trustworthiness of the New Testament, by W. Ramsay, 1979, pp. 285, 291) Concerning this, the Dictionnaire du Nouveau Testament in Crampon’s French Bible (1939 ed., p. 360) says: “The scholarly researches of Zumpt (Commentat. epigraph., II, 86-104; De Syria romana provincia, 97-98) and of Mommsen (Res gestae divi Augusti) place beyond doubt that Quirinius was twice governor of Syria.” Many scholars locate the time of Quirinius’ first governorship as somewhere between the years 4 and 1 B.C.E., probably from 3 to 2 B.C.E. Their method of arriving at these dates, however, is not solid, and the actual period of this governorship remains indefinite. (See QUIRINIUS.) His second governorship, however, included 6 C.E., according to details reported by Josephus.—Jewish Antiquities, XVIII, 26 (ii, 1).So historian and Bible writer Luke was correct when he said concerning the registration at the time of Jesus’ birth: “This first registration took place when Quirinius was governor of Syria,” distinguishing it from the second, which occurred later under the same Quirinius and to which Gamaliel makes reference as reported by Luke at Acts 5:37.]]
Anyway, calculating back from this vantage point in history, we can determine that the 69 weeks of years began in 455 B.C.E. In that year the significant “going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem” took place.
In Nisan (March-April) of the 20th year of Artaxerxes’ rule (455 B.C.E.), Nehemiah petitioned the king: : “If your servant seems good before you, . . . send me to Judah, to the city of the burial places of my forefathers, that I may rebuild it.” (Ne 2:1, 5) The king granted permission, and Nehemiah made the long journey from Shushan to Jerusalem. On about the fourth of Ab (July-August), after making a night inspection of the walls, Nehemiah gave the command to the Jews: “Come and let us rebuild the wall of Jerusalem, that we may no longer continue to be a reproach.” (Ne 2:11-18) Thus, “the going forth of the word” to rebuild Jerusalem, as authorized by Artaxerxes, was put into effect by Nehemiah in Jerusalem that same year. This clearly establishes 455 B.C.E. as the year from which the 70 weeks would begin to count.
The repair work on the walls was completed on the 25th day of Elul (August-September), in just 52 days. (Ne 6:15) After the rebuilding of the walls, the repairing of the rest of Jerusalem went forward. As to the first seven “weeks” (49 years), Nehemiah, with the help of Ezra and, afterward, others who may have succeeded them, worked, “in the straits of the times,” with difficulty from within, among the Jews themselves, and from without, on the part of the Samaritans and others. (Da 9:25) The book of Malachi, written after 443 B.C.E., decries the bad state into which the Jewish priesthood had by then fallen. Nehemiah’s return to Jerusalem following a visit to Artaxerxes (compare Ne 5:14; 13:6, 7) is thought to have taken place after this. Just how long after 455 B.C.E. he personally continued his efforts in building Jerusalem, the Bible does not reveal. However, the work was evidently completed within 49 years (seven weeks of years) to the extent necessary, and Jerusalem and its temple remained for the Messiah’s coming.
As to the following “sixty-two weeks” (Da 9:25) these, being part of the 70 and named second in order, would continue from the conclusion of the “seven weeks.” Therefore, the time “from the going forth of the word” to rebuild Jerusalem until “Messiah the Leader” would be 7 plus 62 “weeks,” or 69 “weeks”—483 years—from the year 455 B.C.E. to 29 C.E.
As mentioned above, in the autumn of that year, 29 C.E., Jesus was baptized in water, was anointed with holy spirit, and began his ministry as “Messiah the Leader.”—Lu 3:1, 2, 21, 22.
Centuries in advance Daniel’s prophecy pinpointed the exact year of the Messiah’s arrival. Perhaps the Jews in the first century C.E. had made calculations on the basis of Daniel’s prophecy and were therefore on the alert for Messiah’s appearance. The Bible reports:
“Now as the people were in expectation and all were reasoning in their hearts about John: ‘May he perhaps be the Christ?’” (Lu 3:15)Although they were expecting the Messiah, they evidently could not pinpoint the exact month, week, or day of his arrival. Therefore, they wondered whether John was the Christ, even though John evidently began his ministry in the spring of 29 C.E., about six months before Jesus presented himself for baptism.
“Cut off” at the half of the week.
“After the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.” (Da 9:26) It was sometime after the end of the ‘seven plus sixty-two weeks,’ actually about three and a half years afterward, that Christ was cut off in death on a torture stake, giving up all that he had, as a ransom for mankind. (Isa 53:8) Evidence indicates that the first half of the “week” was spent by Jesus in the ministry. On one occasion, likely in the fall of 32 C.E., he gave an illustration, apparently speaking of the Jewish nation as a fig tree (compare Mt 17:15-20; 21:18, 19, 43) that had borne no fruit for “three years.” The vinedresser said to the owner of the vineyard: “Master, let it alone also this year, until I dig around it and put on manure; and if then it produces fruit in the future, well and good; but if not, you shall cut it down.” (Lu 13:6-9) He may have referred here to the time period of his own ministry to that unresponsive nation, which ministry had continued at that point for about three years and was to continue into a fourth year.Covenant in force “for one week.”
Daniel 9:27 states: “And he must keep the covenant in force for the many for one week [or seven years]; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.” The “covenant” could not be the Law covenant, for Christ’s sacrifice, three and a half years after the 70th “week” began, resulted in its removal by God: “He has taken it [the Law] out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.” (Col 2:14) Also, “Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law . . . The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham might come to be by means of Jesus Christ for the nations.” (Ga 3:13, 14) God, through Christ, did extend the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant to the natural offspring of Abraham, excluding the Gentiles until the gospel was taken to them through Peter’s preaching to the Italian Cornelius. (Ac 3:25, 26; 10:1-48) This conversion of Cornelius and his household occurred after the conversion of Saul of Tarsus, which is generally considered to have taken place
in about 34 C.E.; after this the congregation enjoyed a period of peace, being built up. (Ac 9:1-16, 31) It appears, then, that the bringing of Cornelius into the Christian congregation took place about the autumn of 36 C.E., which would be the end of the 70th “week,” 490 years from 455 B.C.E.Sacrifices and offerings ‘caused to cease.’ The expression ‘cause to cease,’ used with reference to sacrifice and gift offering, means, literally, “cause or make to sabbath, to rest, to desist from working.” The “sacrifice and gift offering” that are ‘caused to cease,’ according to Daniel 9:27, could not be Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, nor would they logically be any spiritual sacrifice by his footstep followers. They must refer to the sacrifices and gift offerings that were offered by the Jews at the temple in Jerusalem according to Moses’ Law.
“The half of the week” would be at the middle of seven years, or after three and a half years within that “week” of years. Since the 70th “week” began about the fall of 29 C.E. at Jesus’ baptism and anointing to be Christ, half of that week (three and a half years) would extend to the spring of 33 C.E., or Passover time (Nisan 14) of that year. This day appears to have been April 1, 33 C.E., according to the Gregorian calendar.
The apostle Paul tells us that Jesus ‘came to do the will of God,’ which was to ‘do away with what is first [the sacrifices and offerings according to the Law] that he may establish what is second.’ This he did by offering as a sacrifice his own body.—Heb 10:1-10.Although the Jewish priests continued to offer sacrifices at the temple in Jerusalem until its destruction in 70 C.E., the sacrifices for sin ceased having acceptance and validity with God. Just before Jesus’ death he said to Jerusalem: “Your house is abandoned to you.” (Mt 23:38)
Transgression and sin terminated. Jesus’ being cut off in death, his resurrection, and his appearance in heaven resulted in ‘terminating transgression and finishing off sin as well as in making atonement for error.’ (Da 9:24) The Law covenant had exposed the Jews as sinners, condemned them as such, and brought upon them the curse as covenant breakers. But where sin “abounded” as exposed or made evident by the Mosaic Law, God’s mercy and favor abounded much more through his Messiah. (Ro 5:20) By Messiah’s sacrifice, transgression and sin of the repentant sinners can be canceled and the penalty thereof be lifted.
A Jewish View.
Professor E. B. Pusey, in a footnote on one of his lectures delivered at the University of Oxford, remarks on the Masoretic accenting: “The Jews put the main stop of the verse under העב? [seven], meaning to separate the two numbers, 7 and 62. This they must have done dishonestly, םינימה ןעמל (as Rashi [a prominent Jewish Rabbi of the 11th and 12th centuries C.E.] says in rejecting literal expositions which favored the Christians) ‘on account of the heretics,’ i.e. Christians. For the latter clause, so divided off, could only mean, ‘and during threescore and two weeks street and wall shall be being restored and builded,’ i.e. that Jerusalem should be 434 years in rebuilding, which would be senseless.”—Daniel the Prophet, 1885, p. 190.Evidently because of their rejection of Jesus Christ as the Messiah, the Masoretes accented the Hebrew text at Daniel 9:25 with an ’ath·nach′, or “stop,” after “seven weeks,”
the Septuagint translation, made by Jewish scholars in the first three centuries B.C.E., reads, at Daniel 9:25, “From the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall.” (LXX, Bagster) Thomson’s Septuagint reads, in part: “seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. They shall indeed return and a street shall be built and a wall.”
An editorial note by James Strong in Lange’s Commentary on the Holy Scriptures (Da 9:25, ftn, p. 198) says: “The only justification of this translation, which separates the two periods of seven weeks and sixty-two weeks, assigning the former as the terminus ad quem of the Anointed Prince, and the latter as the time of rebuilding, lies in the Masoretic interpunction, which places the Athnac [stop] between them. . . . and the rendering in question involves a harsh construction of the second member, being without a preposition. It is better, therefore, and simpler, to adhere to the Authorized Version, which follows all the older translations.”—Translated and edited by P. Schaff, 1976.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an Anti-Christ.
2John1:8 Look to yourself's, that we do not loose those things we worked for, that we may receivea full reward.
2 John 1:9 Whoever trensgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both, the Father and the Son.
2 John 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, DO NOT RECEIVE HIM INTO YOUR HOUSE NOR GREET HIM.
2 John 1:11 For He who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
I hope and pray that we will follow John's advice.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 23 2007,05:21) 2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an Anti-Christ. 2John1:8 Look to yourself's, that we do not loose those things we worked for, that we may receivea full reward.
2 John 1:9 Whoever trensgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both, the Father and the Son.
2 John 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, DO NOT RECEIVE HIM INTO YOUR HOUSE NOR GREET HIM.
John goes on…Do not agree to pick up his children from school, nor allow your children to eat with his, do not watch television of his making, avoid all contact with humans who do not think exactly the same way as your interpretation of the bible says they should. Take up a lucrative trade that may allow you to tithe to a great extent…
Are you a member of the cult that we in Australia and New Zealand call the Exclusive Bretheren?
Stuart
Quote (Samuel @ Nov. 21 2007,07:49) Conversation is over for me …. Yeah I am mad actually…I'm mad at myself for ever trying to talk to you. I should not have even tried to talk to you…you Stu, and Issiah all have that same sort of pretentious candor about you. You all do the same thing you take every single sentence that someone uses in their post and make a little catchy “Come-Back” “Refute” to point out how outlandishly WRONG you believe they are…and then proceed to point out that you are ever more correct than any one else could possibly ever be…that “Holier-Than Thou Are complex”.
Wow I've never been called 'holier than thou' but hey there's a first for everything.
Quote Not only do you all do this to me…you do it to ever single person you talk to on these forums. If you do not believe what we believe you should leave after conferring with the folks here and discovering that. Because it appears to me that you just want to see how many “So-Called Christians” you can make MAD. Like its a game for you or something. 'So called'? Be careful you might make them mad yourself.
Quote My FAITH is not a GAME…and it is not open for DEBATE…like I've told Stu and Issiah. I'm sorry. But unless you can approach me in a more civil manor than we are through talking…just like I've told the other two.
God bless you….Good luck with your debating and arguing.
What would be a civil manner, agreeing with you about Jesus? Seems that would be the only way but I can't do that. Sorry.
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