Jesus, THE Messiah?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 10 2007,02:48)

See, Towshab, this is a man who has love for the Creator and for the Son, which blooms into love for even those lost.

I disagree. Tow doesn't even know the “Son” how can he love him? Not only does he not know him, but he denies him.

As for those who are lost, well, he hasn't shown concern for those either. He has a “take what I say or don't” attitude. If this is the “fruit of the Spirit” then I don't have a clue what fruit looks like! Maybe so, maybe so….

[Unisage]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 10 2007,04:01)

Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 10 2007,02:48) See, Towshab, this is a man who has love for the Creator and for the Son, which blooms into love for even those lost. I disagree.  Tow doesn't even know the “Son” how can he love him?  Not only does he not  know him, but he denies him. As for those who are lost, well, he hasn't shown concern for those either.  He has a “take what I say or don't” attitude.  If this is the “fruit of the Spirit” then I don't have a clue what fruit looks like!  Maybe so, maybe so….

Ummmmm How can some people say that? Some even dont know who Jesus is.. Is he God or man or is he a ManGod?

If he is God.How do you kill a God that has immortality?
That means he never died..That means you still live in your sins.

Truly the ones who are lost are the ones who go aganist John teaching..

How would you know if people are a antichrist? John gave the answer..But it is to bad that people dont take John Advice..

This is how you may recognize the spirit of God: Every spirit which acknowledges that Jesus Christ came in the flesh is from God, and every spirit which does not thus acknowledge Jesus is not from God” (I John 4:2, II John 7).

“Many deceivers have gone into the world who do not accept that Jesus came as a human being. Here is the deceiver and the antichrist.”

If John wanted us to believe that it was God who came in the flesh he would a written as such..But John didnt.. He said Jesus NOT God who came in the flesh..

Those who say that Jesus is God are the ones who are the Anti-Christ..They deny the sonship.

A Father cannot be his own son..Nor can the son receive the Heir from the Father if he God..God all ready owns everything..Why does he want tobe come a Heir?

[Unisage]

Quote (david @ Nov. 09 2007,20:05)

Quote There are many people who are indoctrinated.Then there are people like me who are not. Sounds like something an indoctrinated person would say. Quote However Towshab did a number on these boards..And I have not seen anyone here to refute him. See the post above your post….and every second post for the first 20 pages.

Really?

Is there a reason that churches are at odds with each other?I mean there are well over 3000 of them, with all different flavors..Which one are you in? The JW??
I see it here on these boards.People are Indoctrinated.

I have read the posts..But this is what I see..People cant debate directly from the bible with out going to a out side source..Now that tells me there something wrong..That would make the bible not perfect and people are admitting to it with out even knowing that they are.

[Morningstar]

Quote (Unisage @ Nov. 10 2007,05:00)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 10 2007,04:01) Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 10 2007,02:48) See, Towshab, this is a man who has love for the Creator and for the Son, which blooms into love for even those lost. I disagree.  Tow doesn't even know the “Son” how can he love him?  Not only does he not  know him, but he denies him. As for those who are lost, well, he hasn't shown concern for those either.  He has a “take what I say or don't” attitude.  If this is the “fruit of the Spirit” then I don't have a clue what fruit looks like!  Maybe so, maybe so…. Ummmmm How can some people say that? Some even dont know who Jesus is.. Is he God or man or is he a ManGod? If he is God.How do you kill a God that has immortality? That means he never died..That means you still live in your sins. Truly the ones who are lost are the ones who go aganist John teaching.. How would you know if people are a antichrist? John gave the answer..But it is to bad that people dont take John Advice.. This is how you may recognize the spirit of God: Every spirit which acknowledges that Jesus Christ came in the flesh is from God, and every spirit which does not thus acknowledge Jesus is not from God” (I John 4:2, II John 7). “Many deceivers have gone into the world who do not accept that Jesus came as a human being. Here is the deceiver and the antichrist.” If John wanted us to believe that it was God who came in the flesh he would a written as such..But John didnt.. He said Jesus NOT God who came in the flesh.. Those who say that Jesus is God are the ones who are the Anti-Christ..They deny the sonship. A Father cannot be his own son..Nor can the son receive the Heir from the Father if he God..God all ready owns everything..Why does he want tobe come a Heir?

They don't deny the sonship if their view is this:

Jesus is God by substance. He is formed of the spiritual elements that constitute God as he is the only Begotten. Jesus is God by inheritence and by being Chosen and anointed into such a position.

The truth is this because I don't like to mince words.

Christianity has ONE TRUE ETERNAL GOD. This fact is true. The Father is the ONE TRUE ETERNAL GOD. Before all things and from him all things.

However, Christianity has TWO GODS because the Father wanted it that way. One God is unbegotten and eternal, the other God is begotten and anointed into this divine position.

The Father cannot be seen, touched or heard. He has anointed his Son to this position and is well pleased to do so.

Through this mediator the God who exists in unapproachable light can finally be personally and directly accessed.

I know others don't believe this. But without semantics and “word dancing” this is my view.

[Morningstar]

6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8: 6)

'Take heed unto yourselves and to all the flock over which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the church of God which he has purchased with his own blood.' (Acts 20:27-28).

See what I mean? Notice the usage in both of these passages by Paul?

[Morningstar]

To clarify:

As satan is the god of this world.

Jesus is the god of the kingdom of heaven.

But by a much higher authority being of the nature and substance of the Father and by divine inheritence and appointment to such a lofty position.

[Stu]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 10 2007,03:54)

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 09 2007,19:14) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 09 2007,13:07) Seems being circumcised in your heart will only get you halfway. I didn't realise this was a medical forum. Stuart I see you have resorted to mocking us again, Stu? Goodness, really, don't you have anything better to do?  Like becoming a better person?

Hi Not3in1

A better person than whom?

Tell me what “Seems being circumcised in your heart will only get you halfway” means! What a load of utter twaddle!

Perhaps I have missed it, but surely the Jewish tradition has many nasty practices on which Towshab could be challenged. How about the non-consentual infant mutillation that is circumcision? What about shechitah, the method of animal slaughter which is claimed to be painless but is far more distressing to the animal than modern non-religious methods used in abattoirs?

At least the christians who post here have the decency to ignore half the instrutions that advocate violence that are listed in the bible.

Stuart

[david]

I think we all just have to chill a little bit on this forum. Since this isn't real conversation, it's often hard to understand the tone of what is said.

[david]

Quote

Perhaps I have missed it, but surely the Jewish tradition has many nasty practices on which Towshab could be challenged. How about the non-consentual infant mutillation that is circumcision? What about shechitah, the method of animal slaughter which is claimed to be painless but is far more distressing to the animal than modern non-religious methods used in abattoirs?

That's better. You have to pick on everyone equally. It's rule #143B of this forum.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 10 2007,09:21)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 10 2007,03:54) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 09 2007,19:14) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 09 2007,13:07) Seems being circumcised in your heart will only get you halfway. I didn't realise this was a medical forum. Stuart I see you have resorted to mocking us again, Stu? Goodness, really, don't you have anything better to do?  Like becoming a better person?   Hi Not3in1 A better person than whom? Tell me what “Seems being circumcised in your heart will only get you halfway”  means!  What a load of utter twaddle! Perhaps I have missed it, but surely the Jewish tradition has many nasty practices on which Towshab could be challenged.  How about the non-consentual infant mutillation that is circumcision?  What about shechitah, the method of animal slaughter which is claimed to be painless but is far more distressing to the animal than modern non-religious methods used in abattoirs? At least the christians who post here have the decency to ignore half the instrutions that advocate violence that are listed in the bible.   Stuart

I was only teasing you, Stu (thus the “wink” I gave you). A little “tit-for-tat” was all.

I saw elsewhere where you had posted to a new member that being a “good person” was better than trying to follow the bible and God or something along these lines.

[Laurel]

Not 3 quoted me earlier. I said Samuel was a loving kind person, which he is. He could have said a lot of nasty things, hateful things to Tow, because they have such varied values, but he didn't. His respons was kind and good. He is obviously concerned and does not believe what Tow says, but he humbly disagrees.

I approve of that kind of loving rebuke. It is not fleshy behavior to be so selfless.

Love,
Laurel

[Not3in1]

You know, Laurel, I went back and re-read my post. I thought you were referring to Tow, not Sam. I misunderstood completely – sorry about this. Yes, I do agree that Sam is all the things you described.

[Towshab]

Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 09 2007,09:48)

Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 26 2007,17:14) May GOD have mercy on your soul. I can't discuss this anymore…this has gone way to far for me. To say that JESUS is not real is flat out blasphemy…and I can't engage in further conversation on this matter. Jesus is real…thats the only reason you can be forgiven of your sins. Ye of little faith…May GOD have mercy on your soul. With all the beliefs out there someone or somebody is wrong. But I can tell you without having to even look at a bible that GOD, Jesus the SON, and the HOLY GHOST are REAL AS SURE AS I'm TYPING on this forum board. You can feel the spirit in your soul…Thats real brother…if you can't “Feel” anything…I'd advise you to quit trying to prove GOD and Jesus wrong….and pray…so that you can feel something again. Samuel, Once again you have spoken from your heart, filled with empathy (love), for someone you do not even know. See, Towshab, this is a man who has love for the Creator and for the Son, which blooms into love for even those lost. This IS the friut of the Spirit. You should be able to see that much, and weep because it is not in you at this point.

Does love only exist within he realm of Christianity? History does not prove this out.

You act as if Christian's have the market on 'love'. I guess the rest of the world is depraved and wicked.

[Towshab]

Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 09 2007,10:11)

Tow, Sometimes the translator of the original text used words in their own language to make it sound as close to the original as possible. Hebrew is a language which speaks to Elohim's heart. Latin is one of the languages as well as Greek, that were a punishment to the people back in Babylon who tried to build a tower to the heavens and call men gods! Earlier you quoted that all these things would fall on this generation. As one who speaks with the Spirit of Truth, I'll translate it better for this generation of today. This generation, in this case, means the one in which these things happen, not necessarily the one in which it was written. See?

I'm about to post the very definitive refutation of this viewpoint.

Quote

Then there is another verse where Messiah tells the theif on the cross 'I tell you, this day you will be with me in paradise. As a Spirit taught person, I can tell you will all confidence and Truth that this verse was re-written with another doctrine in the heart of the scribe, who was probably Latin. This verse actually reads, “I tell you this day, you shall be with me in paradise.” One jot or one tittle, one dash or one comma changes everything!!! Here is another one which throws the truth seekers off the True Path: The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses seat. Do as they do. The corrected Hebrew writings speaks to the soul and to the Truth and is written like this: The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat, do as he (Moses) does. This verse makes clear that the Torah written by Moses (inspired by Elohim) IS Truth and our righteous instruction. Moses seat was the name for the official seat of the court back in the day. Too many people, I bet Jews too, see this changed version and become high-minded, and think the Pharisees taught the Truth of the Torah (law), when in fact, the Pharisees taught the traditions of men, not of Elohim. And My proof is Y'shua's condemnation of the Pharisees in the Messianic writings. Ask yourself this, why would Messiah tell us to follow someone who is a bad example? He wouldn't!! Laurel

Jesus was likely a very vocal opponent of certain interpretations of Torah in his time no doubt. Too bad Paul and others had to come along and ruin the teachings of Jesus with all of the pagan mythologies attached to his life. Then again had they not we'd never have heard of Jesus in the first place.

[Towshab]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 09 2007,11:01)

Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 10 2007,02:48) See, Towshab, this is a man who has love for the Creator and for the Son, which blooms into love for even those lost. I disagree. Tow doesn't even know the “Son” how can he love him? Not only does he not know him, but he denies him. As for those who are lost, well, he hasn't shown concern for those either. He has a “take what I say or don't” attitude. If this is the “fruit of the Spirit” then I don't have a clue what fruit looks like! Maybe so, maybe so….

What lost people? Do they not know where they are?

'Lost' is a Christian term. As is 'fruit of the spirit'. I've seen alot of rotten Christian 'fruit' in my life and all it tells me is that they are human just like me and that their Christianity has not really made any difference in their lives. Most Christians are no different than anyone else in my experience.

[Towshab]

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 09 2007,16:21)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 10 2007,03:54) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 09 2007,19:14) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 09 2007,13:07) Seems being circumcised in your heart will only get you halfway. I didn't realise this was a medical forum. Stuart I see you have resorted to mocking us again, Stu? Goodness, really, don't you have anything better to do? Like becoming a better person? Hi Not3in1 A better person than whom? Tell me what “Seems being circumcised in your heart will only get you halfway” means! What a load of utter twaddle!

Halfway into the temple . Christians want to say they are the spiritual children of Israel and there is proof aplenty that this is bogus. Never say physical circumcision made them less in G-d's sight. Even G-d knows you Stu and He's not going to throw you into some lake of fire for not believing in Him. As long as you are not wicked when you die you'll be in the same predicament you now see for yourself. Dead. That's the end for you just as you've always believed.

Quote

Perhaps I have missed it, but surely the Jewish tradition has many nasty practices on which Towshab could be challenged. How about the non-consentual infant mutillation that is circumcision?

I was 'mutilated' as a child and it had nothing to do with Judaism. It was the choice of my parents. Personally I don't recall the pain.

Quote

What about shechitah, the method of animal slaughter which is claimed to be painless but is far more distressing to the animal than modern non-religious methods used in abattoirs?

As a non-Jew who wishes to follow the G-d of all flesh, I don't agree with all that is found in Jewish scriptures. Please recall that this is a book that is thousands of years old and they did not have the methods available then as they do now. The method of slaughtering animals back then was no different with any peoples. There is something to be said for people updating certain aspects of a religion as time progresses.

Quote

At least the christians who post here have the decency to ignore half the instrutions that advocate violence that are listed in the bible. Stuart

If any person could read and understand they'd realize that much no longer applies.

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2007,21:01)

–towshab. 1. If “some were historical” which ones weren't? And what would it mean if they said that day of Jehovah was “near.” My point of course is that if you mock Jesus for saying that he was coming quickly, you have to hold to the same standards for the Hebrew scriptures, when they repeatedly say that the day of Jehovah is near. Quote Yes I admit to 'mocking' Jesus when he says he is coming quickly. But I do so because (1) I don't thing that the historical Jesus said this cause he died and (2) he made other statements that put a tighter restriction on the date range. That is one thing you won't find in the Tanakh. Here's an example Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. First, you are confusing two completely separate generations in these two scriptures. The first: MATTHEW 23:36 “Truly I say to YOU, All these things will come upon this generation.” (Also read the context and see who he is speaking to.) This first scripture you mentioned corresponds to this scripture: MATTHEW 11:16-19 “”With whom shall I compare this generation? It is like young children sitting in the marketplaces who cry out to their playmates, saying, 'We played the flute for YOU, but YOU did not dance; we wailed, but YOU did not beat yourselves in grief.' Correspondingly, John came neither eating nor drinking, yet people say, 'He has a demon'; the Son of man did come eating and drinking, still people say, 'Look! A man gluttonous and given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works.”” It is discussing the generation alive in Jesus day, those who should have known better. Again, we are told of the same generation: “Some of the scribes and Pharisees” asked Jesus for a sign. He told them and “the crowds” who were present: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet. For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. . . . That is how it will be also with this wicked generation.” (Matthew 12:38-46) So, that's one generation, the generation that was alive in Jesus day and that should have known who Jesus was. But, your second scripture, has nothing to do with the first generation mentioned:

I agree with this one. I must admit I 'jumped the gun' without getting into the context.

Quote

MATTHEW 24:34 “Truly I say to YOU that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” Jesus had said that the temple would be thrown down. Then, he was asked a multi-layer question: MATTHEW 24:3 “While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”” They asked about 1. the throwing down of the temple. 2. the sign of his presence (or coming) as many Bibles say. 3. the end of the system of things Jesus then explained what would happen before the end of the Jewish system of things and at the same time what would happen during the conclusion of this system of things (this world.) After saying all that, we come to verse 34, which speaks of the generation that would experience the things foretold. The Jewish generation did experience those things to some degree before the destruction of their system. And the world has experience these things in much greater degree beginning in the last century. Either way, the generation back then did experience those things. And the generation still alive today is experiencing the major fullfillment of those things on a worldwide scale. That 'generation' back then is not still waiting to see the fullfillment of these things.

This one I am total disagreement with. He was speaking specifically to the people there at the time. You can be certain that with the disciples looking for Jesus' return during their own lifetime that they too felt these words meant during their lifetime.

Lets look at Matthew 24 at study the context.

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Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
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First of all notice that his audience here consists ONLY of the disciples, not to a group of people. These were his followers at this time and he was not speaking to people in the future but directly to them.

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Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
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Who is 'you'? The disciples! Not other people but his followers in 30-33 CE.

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Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
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What's going on here david? He is speaking directly to his disciples at the time and telling them that the things he is speaking of will happen to them and not a future people. Mat 24:1-3 sets the audience, 'you' and 'ye' is this audience: the disciples of Jesus in his time.

And guess what? These apostles were persecuted and killed. Jesus had the right of that. He also had the right of the temple. But was this because it was prophecy or because Matthew was written around or soon after the destruction of the temple? Not certain but in any case for now we'll continue with the line of reasoning that Jesus just happened to get it right.

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Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall aboun
d, the love of many shall wax cold.
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Apostacy and opposition were prevalent in the early church. Most scholars viewed that James and Paul genuinely opposed on another. The Christian bible records other potential apostates. So Jesus is rocking along still speaking of first century events. Not too bad eh?

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Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
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Don't forget his audience here david. The first century apostles. He was telling them to stick with it. And the end was the end of their lives. So we're still looking at apostle lifetime events. Compare this to

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Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
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See there is no theme of the grace and mere belief in Jesus for this 'salvation'. The theme is a deliverance as was often seen in the Tanakh. Both passages speak of endurance in holding fast to G-d not in the easy believism or 'Judaism Lite' (0 Commandments, less filling) of Paul the apostate.

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Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
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Well here we come to our first limiting factor. Obviously the gospel must reach the entire world before the end of times. Indeed many evangelicals are trying to do just that in hopes of speeding up the process. Even your own religion, Jehovah's Witnesses, are evangelizing heavily.

But he is still talking to the first century apostles! Whether you like it or not, the people of the first century had a very limited view of the world. In their view it was the areas around them because that is all they knew. Listen what the Christian bible says

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Luk 23:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
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Can this be true? Only if the first century Christians had a very limited view of what the world was! Thus Jesus was conveying that as his disciples spread across 'the world' which consisted of the places around them, that they would be able to reach the whole world.

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Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
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Again Jesus is back speaking directly to the first century apostles, 'When ye see'. But this may very well refer to the destruction of the temple and that certainly happened within their lifetime. Like I say, may be Jesus being accurate or may be Matthew writing after the fact but we're still looking at first century CE.

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Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
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These verses still indicate that Jesus is speaking of the first century because it is quite obvious that Christians are everywhere not just in Judea. Jerusalem was the home for the first Christians but Paul and his gang spread it all over but Jesus was speaking specifically to his apostles.

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Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
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Still talking to the apostles! But we're starting to run into some issues in this 'prophecy' already. First if part of it was to have happened what about the rest. Jesus says the temple will be destroyed and that there would be wars. That happened during the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. But what about the rest of it? There is no break in Jesus' prophecy saying the temple will be destroyed and then thousands of years will pass. This is supposed to all happen in a sequence. Since Jesus did not return after the temple was destroyed and has not done so since his 'ascension' what's going on? The next verses also refute the whole ideal of some of these things taking place thousands of years in the future.

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Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
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What does 'immediately' mean to you?

Let's skip ahead because many of the verse following this do not give any sense of time.

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Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
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David, would you say that the 'ye' in Mat 24:33 is the same people as 'you' in 24:34? Is the 'you' and 'ye' not the first century apostles? What does it mean when he says it is 'at the doors'? It means very, very close. Remember this is Jesus' audience

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Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
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Now go back to 24:34 again and note that Jesus said 'till all these things be fulfilled'. That means everything he had spoken of in Mathew 24 thus far. Since he was speaking directly to them and often said they wou
ld encounter these things, all of it was to happen in their lifetimes!

Now unless at least some of these guys are living today I really don't think they will be seeing any of this. Yet Jesus was telling them that they would. Skip ahead because Jesus isn't through speaking to his first century apostles

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Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
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Jesus was specifically telling the apostles to be watching for all of these things. Not people in 1600 not us but the first century apostles of Jesus.

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Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

[942767]

Hi Towshab:

You say:

Quote

How does that hold up in light of Ez 37:26 where it says that the temple will stand forever more? Or this verse Eze 37:28  Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” I really think you need to reread Ezekiel 37-48 and realize this is all about the house of Israel and NOT a spiritual Israel. Again do not forget this verse either

I've already given you my understanding on this.  Body of Christ is God's temple.  The body that we have now is a temporary tabernacle for the Spirit of God if so the the Spirit of God dwells within a person.  The Spiritual body that the Nation of Israel who were striving to obey God under the OT and those who are born again Christians will receive at the coming of the Lord for the Body of Christ which is the church.

Then you say:

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Zec 8:23  Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'

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Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly *; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

There are Jews who are born-again Christians.

Then you say:

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Yes let me reemphasize this verse Joe 2:32  And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls. Note here that G-d through Joel could have said 'everyone who calls on the name of My coming Moshiach' or 'everyone who calls on the name of My son' but He didn't. We will call on the name of YHVH. Praise YHVH G-d!

The name Jesus means “Jehovah is salvation”, and so, calling on the name of Jesus is calling on the name of the LORD.

Yes Praise YHVH for sending us His Son

[david]

Note that Matthew 24:29-31 foretells that
(1) the Son of man comes,
(2) this coming will be with great glory,
(3) the angels will be with him, and
(4) all the tribes of the earth will see him.

Jesus repeats these elements in the parable of the sheep and the goats. (Matthew 25:31-46)

Hence, we can conclude that this parable deals with the time, after the opening outbreak of tribulation, when Jesus will come with his angels and sit down on his throne to judge. (John 5:22; Acts 17:31; compare 1 Kings 7:7; Daniel 7:10, 13, 14, 22, 26; Matthew 19:28.)

Earlier, Jesus had indicated that after the city was devastated, he would come in Jehovah’s name. (Matthew 23:38, 39; 24:2) He then made this clearer in his prophecy uttered on the Mount of Olives. Having mentioned the coming “great tribulation,” he said that afterward false Christs would appear, and Jerusalem would be trampled on by the nations for an extended period. (Matthew 24:21, 23-28; Luke 21:24) Could it be that another, a greater, fulfillment was to come? The facts answer yes. When we compare Revelation 6:2-8 (written after the tribulation on Jerusalem in 70 C.E.) with Matthew 24:6-8 and Luke 21:10, 11, we see that warfare, food shortages, and plague on a greater scale lay ahead.

[david]

“Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” (Matthew 24:3; Mark 13:1-4)

The destruction of Jerusalem’s temple and the end of the Jewish system of things were not the same as the time of Christ’s presence and of the conclusion of the whole world system of things. Nonetheless, in his lengthy answer, Jesus artfully addressed all these aspects of the question. He told them what things would be like before Jerusalem’s destruction; he also told them what to expect the world to be like during his presence, when he would be ruling as King in heaven and would be on the verge of bringing the entire world system of things to its end.

The End of Jerusalem

Consider first what Jesus said about Jerusalem and its temple. Over three decades in advance, he foretold a time of terrible hardships for one of the greatest cities in the world. Notice in particular his words recorded at Luke 21:20, 21: “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her.” If Jerusalem was to be surrounded, encircled by encamped armies, how could “those in the midst of her” simply “withdraw,” as Jesus had commanded? Clearly, Jesus was implying that a window of opportunity would open up. Did it?

In 66 C.E., the Roman armies under the command of Cestius Gallus had beaten the Jewish rebel forces back to Jerusalem and had them pinned within the city. The Romans even made a thrust into the city itself and reached as far as the temple wall. But then Gallus directed his armies to do something truly baffling. He ordered them to retreat! Elated Jewish soldiers set out in pursuit and inflicted damage on their fleeing Roman enemies. Thus, Jesus’ foretold window of opportunity opened. True Christians heeded his warning and got out of Jerusalem. Wisely so, for just four years later, the Roman armies were back, with General Titus leading them. This time no escape was possible.

The Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem again; they built a fortification of pointed stakes around it. Jesus had prophesied regarding Jerusalem: “The days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side.” (Luke 19:43) Before long, Jerusalem fell; its glorious temple was reduced to smoldering ruins. Jesus’ words were fulfilled in every detail!

Jesus had far more in mind, though, than that destruction of Jerusalem. His disciples had also asked him about the sign of his presence. They did not then know it, but this referred to a time when he would be installed to reign as King in heaven. What did he foretell?

War in the Last Days

If you read Matthew chapters 24 and 25, Mark chapter 13, and Luke chapter 21, you will see unmistakable evidence that Jesus was talking about our own age. He foretold a time of wars—not just the “wars and reports of wars” that have always marred human history but wars involving ‘nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom’—yes, great international wars.—Matthew 24:6-8.

Think for a moment about how warfare has changed in our century. When war meant merely the clash of armies representing two opposing nations, slashing with sabers or even firing guns at one another on a battlefield, it was terrible enough. But in 1914 the Great War broke out. Nation followed nation into the conflagration in a domino effect—the first global war. Automatic weapons were designed to kill more and more people and from greater distances. Machine guns spat bullets with grim efficiency; mustard gas burned, tormented, maimed, and killed soldiers by the thousands; tanks rumbled mercilessly through enemy lines, their great guns blazing. The airplane and the submarine also came into play—mere harbingers of what they were to become.

World War II did the unimaginable—it actually dwarfed its predecessor, killing scores of millions of people. Huge aircraft carriers, virtual floating cities, plied the seas and unleashed warplanes to rain death from the skies upon enemy targets. Submarines torpedoed and sank enemy vessels. And atom bombs were dropped, claiming thousands of lives in each crushing blow! Just as Jesus prophesied, there have indeed been “fearful sights” to mark this warring age.—Luke 21:11.

Has war eased off since World War II? Hardly. Sometimes literally dozens of wars rage during a single year—even in this decade of the 1990’s—taking a death toll in the millions. And there has been a change in war’s primary victims. No longer are the dead mainly soldiers. Today, most casualties of war—in fact, over 90 percent of them—are civilians.

Other Features of the Sign

War is only one aspect of the sign Jesus mentioned. He also warned that there would be “food shortages.” (Matthew 24:7) And so it has been, though paradoxically the earth is producing more food than is needed to feed all mankind, though agricultural science is more advanced than ever in human history, though speedy and efficient transportation is available to transport food anywhere in the world. Despite all of that, about one fifth of this world’s population goes hungry every day.

Jesus also foretold that “in one place after another” there would be “pestilences.” (Luke 21:11) Again, our age has seen a strange paradox—better medical care than ever, technological breakthroughs, vaccines to prevent many common diseases; yet pestilential diseases have made unprecedented strides as well. The Spanish Influenza followed swiftly on the heels of World War I and claimed more lives than the war did. So contagious was this disease that in cities such as New York, people could be fined or jailed just for sneezing! Today, cancer and heart disease claim millions of lives each year—veritable pestilences. And AIDS continues to strike down lives, basically unchecked by medical science.

Whereas Jesus discussed the last days largely in terms of sweeping historical and political conditions, the apostle Paul put the focus more on social problems and prevalent attitudes. He wrote, in part: : “Know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, . . . disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, . . . without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God.”—2 Timothy 3:1-5.

Consider just one aspect of social decay in today’s world—the disintegration of the family. The flood tide of broken homes, battered spouses, abused children, and maltreated elderly parents—how these show that people have “no natural affection,” are “fierce,” and even “betrayers,” “without love of goodness”! Yes, we see these traits on an epidemic level today.

Is Our Generation the One Foretold?

You may wonder, though, ‘Have not these conditions always plagued mankind? How do we know that our modern generation is the one foretold in these ancient prophecies?’ Let us consider three lines of evidence that prove that Jesus was talking about our time.

First, while there was a partial, early fulfillment in the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple, Jesus’ words definitely pointed to the future beyond that day. About 30 years after the cataclysm that destroyed Jerusalem, Jesus gave the aged apostle John a vision showing that the prophesied conditions—war, famine, pestilence, and resultant death—were to arrive worldwide in the future. Yes, these distresses would embrace, not any one locality, but “the earth” as a whole.—Revelation 6:2-8.

Second, in this century some features of Jesus’ sign are being fulf
illed in what we might call the ultimate degree. For example, is there any room for wars to become much worse than they have been since 1914? If there was a World War III, with all of today’s nuclear powers deploying their weapons, the aftermath would likely find this earth a charred waste—and mankind as extinct as the dodo. Similarly, Revelation 11:18 foretold that in these days when the nations are “wrathful,” mankind would be “ruining the earth.” For the first time in history, pollution and degradation of the environment now threaten the very habitability of this planet! So this feature too is seeing fulfillment in or near its ultimate degree. Could wars and pollution simply continue to worsen until man has destroyed himself and this planet? No; for the Bible itself decrees that the earth will last forever, with righthearted humans living upon it.—Psalm 37:29; Matthew 5:5.

Third, the sign of the last days is especially convincing when taken as a whole. All told, when we take into account the features Jesus mentioned in the three Gospels, those in Paul’s writings, and those in Revelation, this sign has dozens of features. A person might quibble about them one at a time, arguing that other ages have seen similar problems, but when we consider all of them together, they point an unmistakable finger at only one age—our own.

What, though, does all of this mean? That the Bible simply paints our age as a desperate, hopeless time? Far from it!

Good News

One of the most noteworthy features of the sign of the last days is recorded at Matthew 24:14: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”
In the past century and to this day, some friends of mine, who like to witness about Jehovah have taken the Bible’s message about God’s Kingdom—what it is, how it rules, and what it will accomplish—and have spread that message all over the earth. They have published literature on this subject in well over 300 languages and have brought it to people in their homes or on the streets or at their places of business in virtually every land on earth. (Several people on here all around the earth, Stu being the last, have mentioned them coming to their doors.) They often bring a magazine, entitled: “The Watchtower, announcing Jehovah's Kingdom.”
Anyway, getting off topic.

david

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