Jesus, THE Messiah?

[942767]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 06 2007,22:06)

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 05 2007,20:33) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 06 2007,12:39) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 05 2007,19:03) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 06 2007,11:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 05 2007,13:00) What prophecy did Jesus not fulfill? The list would be shorter if people would list the ones he did fulfill. Two people on here threw out some lists they picked up from some web site and every one of the 'prophecies' were not that at all and they were taken out of context. Hi Towshab: I have the testimony dwelling with me that he fulfilled this one: Quote 18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. Uh, prophecies that were predicted and fulfilled withing the same book don't really count ya know  . Neither one can be verified. But nice try. Hi Towshab: You say that your expected Messiah will rebuild the temple. The temple is the body of Christ. Quote Ephesians 2:14-22 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: F6 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. The temple is the body of Christ? Truly? Well that's odd considering that Ezekiel details the construction of the third temple. Start reading at Ez 40. Unless you are saying G-d changed his mind?

Hi Towshab:

Where is it written that this is to be the third temple?

Actually, I had read this before, but I had not read it closely.
First of all, this vision for the temple was given to Ezekiel for a temple that was to be built after the Babylonian Captivity.

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Ezekiel 40:1א  בְּעֶשְׂרִים וְחָמֵשׁ שָׁנָה לְגָלוּתֵנוּ בְּרֹאשׁ הַשָּׁנָה בֶּעָשׂוֹר לַחֹדֶשׁ, בְּאַרְבַּעE עֶשְׂרֵה שָׁנָה, אַחַר, אֲשֶׁר הֻכְּתָה הָעִיר–בְּעֶצֶם הַיּוֹם הַזֶּה, הָיְתָה עָלַי יַד-יְהוָה, וַיָּבֵא אֹתִי, שָׁמָּה.  1 In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day, the hand of the LORD was upon me, and He brought me thither.   ב  בְּמַרְאוֹת אֱלֹהִים, הֱבִיאַנִי אֶל-אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל; וַיְנִיחֵנִי, אֶל-הַר גָּבֹהַּ מְאֹד, וְעָלָיו כְּמִבְנֵה-עִיר, מִנֶּגֶב.  2 In the visions of God brought He me into the land of Israel, and set me down upon a very high mountain, whereon was as it were the frame of a city on the south.   ג  וַיָּבֵיא אוֹתִי שָׁמָּה, וְהִנֵּה-אִישׁ מַרְאֵהוּ כְּמַרְאֵה נְחֹשֶׁת, וּפְתִיל-פִּשְׁתּ& #1460;ים בְּיָדוֹ, וּקְנֵה הַמִּדָּה; וְהוּא עֹמֵד, בַּשָּׁעַר.  3 And He brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.   ד  וַיְדַבֵּר אֵלַי הָאִישׁ, בֶּן-אָדָם רְאֵה בְעֵינֶיךָ וּבְאָזְנֶיךָ שְּׁמָע וְשִׂים לִבְּךָ לְכֹל אֲשֶׁר-אֲנִי מַרְאֶה אוֹתָךְ–כִּי לְמַעַן הַרְאוֹתְכָה, הֻבָאתָה הֵנָּה; הַגֵּד אֶת-כָּל-אֲשֶׁר-אַתָּה רֹאֶה, לְבֵית יִשְׂרָאֵל.  4 And the man said unto me: 'Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thy heart upon all that I shall show thee, for to the intent that I might show them unto thee art thou brought thither; declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.'

Ezekiel continues with the vision of the temple giving the details.

But then the temple is to be built on the following condition:

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Ezkiel 43:9אַתָּה בֶן-אָדָם, הַגֵּד אֶת-בֵּית-יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶת-הַבַּיִת, וְיִכָּלְמוּ, מֵעֲו‍ֹנוֹתֵיהֶם;E וּמָדְדוּ, אֶת-תָּכְנִית.  10 Thou, son of man, show the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure accurately.   יא  וְאִם-נִכְלְמוּ מִכֹּל אֲשֶׁר-עָשׂוּ, צוּרַת הַבַּיִת וּתְכוּנָתוֹ וּמוֹצָאָיו וּמוֹבָאָיו וְכָל-צוּרֹתָו וְאֵת כָּל-חֻקֹּתָיו וְכָל-צוּרֹתָו וְכָל-תּוֹרֹתָו הוֹדַע אוֹתָם, וּכְתֹב, לְעֵינֵיהֶם; וְיִשְׁמְרוּ אֶת-כָּל-צוּרָתוֹ, וְאֶת-כָּל-חֻקֹּתָיו–וְעָשׂוּ אוֹתָם.  11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, make known unto them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof, and write it in their sight; that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.   יב  זֹאת, תּוֹרַת הַבָּיִת:  עַל-רֹאשׁ הָהָר כָּל-גְּבֻלוֹ סָבִיב סָבִיב, קֹדֶשׁ קָדָשִׁים–הִנֵּה-זֹאת, תּוֹרַת הַבָּיִת.  12 This is the law of the house: upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.

And, the following verses also indicate that this was a temple that was to be built after the Babylonian captivity:

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Ezekiel 44:6ו  וְאָמַרְתָּ אֶל-מֶרִי אֶל-בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל, כֹּה אָמַר אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה:  רַב-לָכֶם מִכָּל-תּוֹעֲבוֹתֵיכֶם, בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל.  6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel: Thus saith the Lord GOD: O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations,   ז  בַּהֲבִיאֲכֶם בְּנֵי-נֵכָר, עַרְלֵי-לֵב וְעַרְלֵי בָשָׂר, לִהְיוֹת בְּמִקְדָּשִׁי, &# 1500;ְחַלְּלוֹ אֶת-בֵּיתִי–בְּהַקְרִיבְכֶם אֶת-לַחְמִי, חֵלֶב וָדָם, וַיָּפֵרוּ אֶת-בְּרִיתִי, אֶל כָּל-תּוֹעֲבוֹתֵיכֶם.  7 in that ye have brought in aliens, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary, to profane it, even My house, when ye offer My bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken My covenant, to add unto all your abominations.   ח  וְלֹא שְׁמַרְתֶּם, מִשְׁמֶרֶת קָדָשָׁי; וַתְּשִׂימוּן, לְשֹׁמְרֵי מִשְׁמַרְתִּי בְּמִקְדָּשִׁי–לָכֶם.  {ס}  8 And ye have not kept the charge of My holy things; but ye have set keepers of My charge in My sanctuary to please yourselves. {S}   ט  כֹּה-אָמַר, אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה, כָּל-בֶּן-נֵכָר עֶרֶל לֵב וְעֶרֶל בָּשָׂר, לֹא יָבוֹא אֶל-מִקְדָּשִׁי:  לְכָל-בֶּן-נֵכָר–אֲשֶׁר, בְּתוֹךְ בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל.  9 Thus saith the Lord GOD: No alien, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into My sanctuary, even any alien that is among the children of Israel.   י  כִּי אִם-הַלְוִיִּם, אֲשֶׁר רָחֲקוּ מֵעָלַי, בִּתְעוֹת יִשְׂרָאֵל אֲשֶׁר תָּעוּ מֵעָלַי, אַחֲרֵי גִּלּוּלֵיהֶם; וְנָשְׂאוּ, עֲו‍ֹנָם.  10 But the Levites, that went far from Me, when Israel went astray, that went astray from Me after their idols, they shall bear their iniquity;   יא  וְהָיוּ בְמִקְדָּשִׁי, מְשָׁרְתִים, פְּקֻדּוֹת אֶל-שַׁעֲרֵי הַבַּיִת, וּמְשָׁרְתִים אֶת-הַבָּיִת; הֵמָּה יִשְׁחֲטוּ אֶת-הָעוֹלָה וְאֶת-הַזֶּבַח, לָעָם, וְהֵמָּה יַעַמְדוּ לִפְנֵיהֶם, לְשָׁרְתָם.  11 and they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering in the house: they shall slay the burnt-offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.   יב  יַעַן, אֲשֶׁר יְשָׁרְתוּ אוֹתָם לִפְנֵי גִלּוּלֵיהֶם, וְהָיוּ לְבֵית-יִשְׂרָאֵל, לְמִכְשׁוֹל עָו‍ֹן; עַל-כֵּן נָשָׂאתִי יָדִי עֲלֵיהֶם, נְאֻם אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה, וְנָשְׂאוּ, עֲו‍ֹנָם.  12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and became a stumblingblock of iniquity unto the house of Israel; therefore have I lifted up My hand against them, saith the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their iniquity.   יג  וְלֹא-יִגְּשׁוּ אֵלַי, לְכַהֵן לִי, וְלָגֶשֶׁת עַל-כָּל-קָדָשַׁי, אֶל-קָדְשֵׁי הַקֳּדָשִׁים; וְנָשְׂאוּ, כְּלִמָּתָם, וְתוֹעֲבוֹתָם, אֲשֶׁר עָשׂוּ.  13 And they shall not come near unto Me, to minister unto Me in the priest's office, nor to come near to any of My holy things, unto the things that are most holy; but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.   יד  וְנָתַתִּי אוֹתָם, שֹׁמְרֵי מִשְׁמֶרֶת הַבָּיִת–לְכֹל, עֲבֹד&#1 464;תוֹ, וּלְכֹל אֲשֶׁר יֵעָשֶׂה, בּוֹ.  {פ}  14 And I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein. {P}   טו  וְהַכֹּהֲנִים הַלְוִיִּם בְּנֵי צָדוֹק, אֲשֶׁר שָׁמְרוּ אֶת-מִשְׁמֶרֶת מִקְדָּשִׁי בִּתְעוֹת בְּנֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל מֵעָלַי–הֵמָּה יִקְרְבוּ אֵלַי, לְשָׁרְתֵנִי; וְעָמְדוּ לְפָנַי, לְהַקְרִיב לִי חֵלֶב וָדָם–נְאֻם, אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה.  15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near to Me to minister unto Me; and they shall stand before Me to offer unto Me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD;

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Ezekiel 48יא  לַכֹּהֲנִים הַמְקֻדָּשׁ מִבְּנֵי צָדוֹק, אֲשֶׁר שָׁמְרוּ מִשְׁמַרְתִּי–אֲשֶׁר לֹא-תָעוּ, בִּתְעוֹת בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, כַּאֲשֶׁר תָּעוּ, הַלְוִיִּם.  11 The sanctified portion shall be for the priests of the sons of Zadok, that have kept My charge, that went not astray when the children of Israel went astray, as the Levites went astray.   יב  וְהָיְתָה לָהֶם תְּרוּמִיָּה מִתְּרוּמַת הָאָרֶץ, קֹדֶשׁ קָדָשִׁים–אֶל-גְּבוּל, הַלְוִיִּם.  12 And it shall be unto them a portion set apart from the offering of the land, a thing most holy, by the border of the Levites.

Again for those reasons mentioned, it appears that this is the temple that was to be built after the Babylonian Captivity conditional upon the repentance of the Nation of Israel.

Our God is worthy to be Praised

[david]

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Most scholars agree that the earliest date for the gospels was 70 AD.

I just find it interesting that towshab instead of using the more familiar more used 70 C.E. (Common Era) he uses 70 AD (anno domino–Latin for: In the year of the lord)

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Nov. 07 2007,17:39)

Quote Most scholars agree that the earliest date for the gospels was 70 AD. I just find it interesting that towshab instead of using the more familiar more used 70 C.E. (Common Era) he uses 70 AD (anno domino–Latin for: In the year of the lord)

Habit ?

[Towshab]

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 07 2007,17:11)

Hi Towshab: Where is it written that this is to be the third temple? Actually, I had read this before, but I had not read it closely. First of all, this vision for the temple was given to Ezekiel for a temple that was to be built after the Babylonian Captivity. Quote Ezekiel 40:1א בְּעֶשְׂרִים וְחָמֵשׁ שָׁנָה לְגָלוּתֵנוּ בְּרֹאשׁ הַשָּׁנָה בֶּעָשׂוֹר לַחֹדֶשׁ, בְּאַרְבַּעE עֶשְׂרֵה שָׁנָה, אַחַר, אֲשֶׁר הֻכְּתָה הָעִיר–בְּעֶצֶם הַיּוֹם הַזֶּה, הָיְתָה עָלַי יַד-יְהוָה, וַיָּבֵא אֹתִי, שָׁמָּה. 1 In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day, the hand of the LORD was upon me, and He brought me thither. ב בְּמַרְאוֹת אֱלֹהִים, הֱבִיאַנִי אֶל-אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל; וַיְנִיחֵנִי, אֶל-הַר גָּבֹהַּ מְאֹד, וְעָלָיו כְּמִבְנֵה-עִיר, מִנֶּגֶב. 2 In the visions of God brought He me into the land of Israel, and set me down upon a very high mountain, whereon was as it were the frame of a city on the south. ג וַיָּבֵיא אוֹתִי שָׁמָּה, וְהִנֵּה-אִישׁ מַרְאֵהוּ כְּמַרְאֵה נְחֹשֶׁת, וּפְתִיל-פִּשְׁתִּים בְּיָדוֹ, וּקְנֵה הַמִּדָּה; וְהוּא עֹמֵד, בַּשָּׁעַר. 3 And He brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate. ד וַיְדַבֵּר אֵלַי הָאִישׁ, בֶּן-אָדָם רְאֵה בְעֵינֶיךָ וּבְאָזְנֶיךָ שְּׁמָע וְשִׂים לִבְּךָ לְכֹל אֲשֶׁר-אֲנִי מַרְאֶה אוֹתָךְ–כִּי לְמַעַן הַרְאוֹתְכָה, הֻבָאתָה הֵנָּה; הַגֵּד אֶת-כָּל-אֲשֶׁר-אַתָּה רֹאֶה, לְבֵית יִשְׂרָאֵל. 4 And the man said unto me: 'Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thy heart upon all that I shall show thee, for to the intent that I might show them unto thee art thou brought thither; declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.' Ezekiel continues with the vision of the temple giving the details. But then the temple is to be built on the following condition: Quote Ezkiel 43:9אַתָּה בֶן-אָדָם, הַגֵּד אֶת-בֵּית-יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶת-הַבַּיִת, וְיִכָּלְמוּ, מֵעֲו‍ֹנוֹתֵיהֶם;E וּמָדְדוּ, אֶת-תָּכְנִית. 10 Thou, son of man, show the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure accurately. יא וְאִם-נִכְלְמוּ מִכֹּל אֲשֶׁר-עָשׂוּ, צוּרַת הַבַּיִת וּתְכוּנָתוֹ וּמוֹצָאָיו וּמוֹבָאָיו וְכָל-צוּרֹתָו וְאֵת כָּל-חֻקֹּתָיו וְכָל-צוּרֹתָ&# 1493; וְכָל-תּוֹרֹתָו הוֹדַע אוֹתָם, וּכְתֹב, לְעֵינֵיהֶם; וְיִשְׁמְרוּ אֶת-כָּל-צוּרָתוֹ, וְאֶת-כָּל-חֻקֹּתָיו–וְעָשׂוּ אוֹתָם. 11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, make known unto them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof, and write it in their sight; that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them. יב זֹאת, תּוֹרַת הַבָּיִת: עַל-רֹאשׁ הָהָר כָּל-גְּבֻלוֹ סָבִיב סָבִיב, קֹדֶשׁ קָדָשִׁים–הִנֵּה-זֹאת, תּוֹרַת הַבָּיִת. 12 This is the law of the house: upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house. And, the following verses also indicate that this was a temple that was to be built after the Babylonian captivity: Quote Ezekiel 44:6ו וְאָמַרְתָּ אֶל-מֶרִי אֶל-בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל, כֹּה אָמַר אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה: רַב-לָכֶם מִכָּל-תּוֹעֲבוֹתֵיכֶם, בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל. 6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel: Thus saith the Lord GOD: O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations, ז בַּהֲבִיאֲכֶם בְּנֵי-נֵכָר, עַרְלֵי-לֵב וְעַרְלֵי בָשָׂר, לִהְיוֹת בְּמִקְדָּשִׁי, לְחַלְּלוֹ אֶת-בֵּיתִי–בְּהַקְרִיבְכֶם אֶת-לַחְמִי, חֵלֶב וָדָם, וַיָּפֵרוּ אֶת-בְּרִיתִי, אֶל כָּל-תּוֹעֲבוֹתֵיכֶם. 7 in that ye have brought in aliens, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary, to profane it, even My house, when ye offer My bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken My covenant, to add unto all your abominations. ח וְלֹא שְׁמַרְתֶּם, מִשְׁמֶרֶת קָדָשָׁי; וַתְּשִׂימוּן, לְשֹׁמְרֵי מִשְׁמַרְתִּי בְּמִקְדָּשִׁי–לָכֶם. {ס} 8 And ye have not kept the charge of My holy things; but ye have set keepers of My charge in My sanctuary to please yourselves. {S} ט כֹּה-אָמַר, אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה, כָּל-בֶּן-נֵכָר עֶרֶל לֵב וְעֶרֶל בָּשָׂר, לֹא יָבוֹא אֶל-מִקְדָּשִׁי: לְכָל-בֶּן-נֵכָר–אֲשֶׁר, בְּתוֹךְ בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל. 9 Thus saith the Lord GOD: No alien, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into My sanctuary, even any alien that is among the children of Israel. י כִּי אִם-הַלְוִיִּם, אֲשֶׁר רָחֲקוּ מֵעָלַי, בִּתְעוֹת יִשְׂרָאֵל אֲשֶׁר תָּעוּ מֵעָלַי, אַחֲרֵי גִּלּוּלֵיהֶם; וְנָשְׂאוּ, עֲו‍ֹנָם. 10 But the Levites, that went far from Me, when Israel went astray, that went astray from Me after their idols, they shall bear their iniquity; יא וְהָיוּ בְמִקְדָּשִׁי, מְשָׁרְתִים, פְּקֻדּוֹת אֶל-שַׁעֲרֵי הַבַּיִת, וּמְשָׁרְתִים &# 1488;ֶת-הַבָּיִת; הֵמָּה יִשְׁחֲטוּ אֶת-הָעוֹלָה וְאֶת-הַזֶּבַח, לָעָם, וְהֵמָּה יַעַמְדוּ לִפְנֵיהֶם, לְשָׁרְתָם. 11 and they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering in the house: they shall slay the burnt-offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them. יב יַעַן, אֲשֶׁר יְשָׁרְתוּ אוֹתָם לִפְנֵי גִלּוּלֵיהֶם, וְהָיוּ לְבֵית-יִשְׂרָאֵל, לְמִכְשׁוֹל עָו‍ֹן; עַל-כֵּן נָשָׂאתִי יָדִי עֲלֵיהֶם, נְאֻם אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה, וְנָשְׂאוּ, עֲו‍ֹנָם. 12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and became a stumblingblock of iniquity unto the house of Israel; therefore have I lifted up My hand against them, saith the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their iniquity. יג וְלֹא-יִגְּשׁוּ אֵלַי, לְכַהֵן לִי, וְלָגֶשֶׁת עַל-כָּל-קָדָשַׁי, אֶל-קָדְשֵׁי הַקֳּדָשִׁים; וְנָשְׂאוּ, כְּלִמָּתָם, וְתוֹעֲבוֹתָם, אֲשֶׁר עָשׂוּ. 13 And they shall not come near unto Me, to minister unto Me in the priest's office, nor to come near to any of My holy things, unto the things that are most holy; but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed. יד וְנָתַתִּי אוֹתָם, שֹׁמְרֵי מִשְׁמֶרֶת הַבָּיִת–לְכֹל, עֲבֹדָתוֹ, וּלְכֹל אֲשֶׁר יֵעָשֶׂה, בּוֹ. {פ} 14 And I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein. {P} טו וְהַכֹּהֲנִים הַלְוִיִּם בְּנֵי צָדוֹק, אֲשֶׁר שָׁמְרוּ אֶת-מִשְׁמֶרֶת מִקְדָּשִׁי בִּתְעוֹת בְּנֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל מֵעָלַי–הֵמָּה יִקְרְבוּ אֵלַי, לְשָׁרְתֵנִי; וְעָמְדוּ לְפָנַי, לְהַקְרִיב לִי חֵלֶב וָדָם–נְאֻם, אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה. 15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near to Me to minister unto Me; and they shall stand before Me to offer unto Me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD; Quote Ezekiel 48יא לַכֹּהֲנִים הַמְקֻדָּשׁ מִבְּנֵי צָדוֹק, אֲשֶׁר שָׁמְרוּ מִשְׁמַרְתִּי–אֲשֶׁר לֹא-תָעוּ, בִּתְעוֹת בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, כַּאֲשֶׁר תָּעוּ, הַלְוִיִּם. 11 The sanctified portion shall be for the priests of the sons of Zadok, that have kept My charge, that went not astray when the children of Israel went astray, as the Levites went astray. יב וְהָיְתָה לָהֶם תְּרוּמִיָּה מִתְּרוּמַת הָאָרֶץ, קֹדֶשׁ קָדָשִׁים–אֶל-גְּבוּל, הַלְוִיִּם. 12 And it shall be unto them a portion set apart from the offering of the land, a thing most holy, by the border of the Levites. Again for those reasons mentioned, it appears that this is the temple that was to be built after the Babylonian Captivity conditional upon the repentance of the Nation of Israel. Our God is worthy to be Prai sed

Well if you compare the plans with the second temple you'll realize that the plans in Ezekiel were not used. Plus, look back to Ez 37:26

Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Since the 2 temple did not use the plans in Ez 40-48 and it did not last 'for evermore', you have the answer.

Shalom.

[david]

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Since the gospels were written after 70 AD this is a bogus assumption.

I'm really not clear why you keep making this assertion. John's account was written much after 70 C.E.

The rest, well before.

None of the gospels mention the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 CE This is significant because Jesus had prophesied concerning the temple, that it would be torn down.
Such an obvious fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy most likely would have been recorded as such by the gospel writers who were fond of mentioning fulfillment of prophecy if they had been written after 70 A.D. Also, if the gospels were fabrications of mythical events then anything to bolster the Messianic claims — such as the destruction of the temple as Jesus said — would surely have been included.

But, it was not included suggesting that the gospels (at least Matthew, Mark, and Luke) were written before 70 CE

Eusebius reported that Matthew wrote his Gospel before he left Palestine to preach in other lands, which Eusebius says happened about 12 years after the death of Christ. Some scholars believe that this would place the writing of Matthew as early as A.D. 40-45 and as late as A.D. 55.

[david]

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Back then, as today, the Messiah is a big deal.

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Only among Christians.

So what changed with the Jewish view then? were they wrong for thousands of years?

What exactly is your view of the messiah? What has the view been of the Messiah among Jews for thousands of years? And why the change?

[david]

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Quote They had made a covenant with Jehovah. A covenant is an agreement. The terms of the Law covenant were that if the Israelites kept the covenant they would be a people for the name of Jehovah, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation, with His blessing (Ex 19:5, 6; De 28:1-14) The book of Judges testifies that they repeatedly turned away from false worship. In the days of the prophet Jeremiah, national unfaithfulness led to the nation’s being taken into exile in Babylon. Why did God also allow the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and its temple in 70 C.E.? Of what unfaithfulness had the nation been guilty so that God did not protect them as he had done when they had put their trust in him? It was shortly before this that they had rejected Jesus as the Messiah. Shortly by 40 years. Jesus was just a short blip on the radar. Someone turned their head or blinked an he was never even noticed. But Paul the Apostate heard about him and thought 'hey, its time to start a new religion called Judaism Lite: 0 Commandments, less filling.'

Do you have any comments on what I actually said?

And your Jesus was “never even noticed” statement has to be the most ridiculous thing anyone has ever said on here….ever.
For someone who was hardly even noticed, he changed the world like no one else.

[david]

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David, What makes anyone fall away from the faith? [Lack of] faith. What causes lack of faith? Doubt, deception, a thing called worldly wisdom, and pride. These favorite tools of the enemy are quite handy for getting the job done in people who are weak in body and/or in spirit (lately I am counted among these).

Mandy! Leave this place. Your curiosity is not worth the reprecusions. If you want to study the Bible, do not make a stranger your guide. I think this particular thread moves far too fast. What's his name puts out way too much info, and few respond to it. And hopefully, few read it. I wish we could slow down and actually go over everything he believes. I wish we could discuss one topic at a time.

What “test results”?

[acertainchap]

And why should she leave?

[942767]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 08 2007,11:01)

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 07 2007,17:11) Hi Towshab: Where is it written that this is to be the third temple? Actually, I had read this before, but I had not read it closely. First of all, this vision for the temple was given to Ezekiel for a temple that was to be built after the Babylonian Captivity. Quote Ezekiel 40:1א  בְּעֶשְׂרִים וְחָמֵשׁ שָׁנָה לְגָלוּתֵנוּ בְּרֹאשׁ הַשָּׁנָה בֶּעָשׂוֹר לַחֹדֶשׁ, בְּאַרְבַּעE עֶשְׂרֵה שָׁנָה, אַחַר, אֲשֶׁר הֻכְּתָה הָעִיר–בְּעֶצֶם הַיּוֹם הַזֶּה, הָיְתָה עָלַי יַד-יְהוָה, וַיָּבֵא אֹתִי, שָׁמָּה.  1 In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day, the hand of the LORD was upon me, and He brought me thither.   ב  בְּמַרְאוֹת אֱלֹהִים, הֱבִיאַנִי אֶל-אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל; וַיְנִיחֵנִי, אֶל-הַר גָּבֹהַּ מְאֹד, וְעָלָיו כְּמִבְנֵה-עִיר, מִנֶּגֶב.  2 In the visions of God brought He me into the land of Israel, and set me down upon a very high mountain, whereon was as it were the frame of a city on the south.   ג  וַיָּבֵיא אוֹתִי שָׁמָּה, וְהִנֵּה-אִישׁ מַרְאֵהוּ כְּמַרְאֵה נְחֹשֶׁת, וּפְתִיל-פִּשְׁתִּים בְּיָדוֹ, וּקְנֵה הַמִּדָּה; וְהוּא עֹמֵד, בַּשָּׁעַר.  3 And He brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.   ד  וַיְדַבֵּר אֵלַי הָאִישׁ, בֶּן-אָדָם רְאֵה בְעֵינֶיךָ וּבְאָזְנֶיךָ שְּׁמָע וְשִׂים לִבְּךָ לְכֹל אֲשֶׁר-אֲנִי מַרְאֶה אוֹתָךְ–כִּי לְמַעַן הַרְאוֹתְכָה, הֻבָאתָה הֵנָּה; הַגֵּד אֶת-כָּל-אֲשֶׁר-אַתָּה רֹאֶה, לְבֵית יִשְׂרָאֵל.  4 And the man said unto me: 'Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thy heart upon all that I shall show thee, for to the intent that I might show them unto thee art thou brought thither; declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.' Ezekiel continues with the vision of the temple giving the details. But then the temple is to be built on the following condition: Quote Ezkiel 43:9אַתָּה בֶן-אָדָם, הַגֵּד אֶת-בֵּית-יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶת-הַבַּיִת, וְיִכָּלְמוּ, מֵעֲו‍ֹנוֹתֵיהֶם;E וּמָדְדוּ, אֶת-תָּכְנִית.  10 Thou, son of man, show the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure accurately.   יא  וְאִם-נִכְלְמוּ מִכֹּל אֲשֶׁר-עָשׂוּ, צוּרַת הַבַּיִת וּתְכוּנָתוֹ וּמוֹצָאָיו וּמוֹבָאָיו וְכָל-צוּרֹ&#15 14;ָו וְאֵת כָּל-חֻקֹּתָיו וְכָל-צוּרֹתָו וְכָל-תּוֹרֹתָו הוֹדַע אוֹתָם, וּכְתֹב, לְעֵינֵיהֶם; וְיִשְׁמְרוּ אֶת-כָּל-צוּרָתוֹ, וְאֶת-כָּל-חֻקֹּתָיו–וְעָשׂוּ אוֹתָם.  11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, make known unto them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof, and write it in their sight; that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.   יב  זֹאת, תּוֹרַת הַבָּיִת:  עַל-רֹאשׁ הָהָר כָּל-גְּבֻלוֹ סָבִיב סָבִיב, קֹדֶשׁ קָדָשִׁים–הִנֵּה-זֹאת, תּוֹרַת הַבָּיִת.  12 This is the law of the house: upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.   And, the following verses also indicate that this was a temple that was to be built after the Babylonian captivity: Quote Ezekiel 44:6ו  וְאָמַרְתָּ אֶל-מֶרִי אֶל-בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל, כֹּה אָמַר אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה:  רַב-לָכֶם מִכָּל-תּוֹעֲבוֹתֵיכֶם, בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל.  6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel: Thus saith the Lord GOD: O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations,   ז  בַּהֲבִיאֲכֶם בְּנֵי-נֵכָר, עַרְלֵי-לֵב וְעַרְלֵי בָשָׂר, לִהְיוֹת בְּמִקְדָּשִׁי, לְחַלְּלוֹ אֶת-בֵּיתִי–בְּהַקְרִיבְכֶם אֶת-לַחְמִי, חֵלֶב וָדָם, וַיָּפֵרוּ אֶת-בְּרִיתִי, אֶל כָּל-תּוֹעֲבוֹתֵיכֶם.  7 in that ye have brought in aliens, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary, to profane it, even My house, when ye offer My bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken My covenant, to add unto all your abominations.   ח  וְלֹא שְׁמַרְתֶּם, מִשְׁמֶרֶת קָדָשָׁי; וַתְּשִׂימוּן, לְשֹׁמְרֵי מִשְׁמַרְתִּי בְּמִקְדָּשִׁי–לָכֶם.  {ס}  8 And ye have not kept the charge of My holy things; but ye have set keepers of My charge in My sanctuary to please yourselves. {S}   ט  כֹּה-אָמַר, אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה, כָּל-בֶּן-נֵכָר עֶרֶל לֵב וְעֶרֶל בָּשָׂר, לֹא יָבוֹא אֶל-מִקְדָּשִׁי:  לְכָל-בֶּן-נֵכָר–אֲשֶׁר, בְּתוֹךְ בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל.  9 Thus saith the Lord GOD: No alien, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into My sanctuary, even any alien that is among the children of Israel.   י  כִּי אִם-הַלְוִיִּם, אֲשֶׁר רָחֲקוּ מֵעָלַי, בִּתְעוֹת יִשְׂרָאֵל אֲשֶׁר תָּעוּ מֵעָלַי, אַחֲרֵי גִּלּוּלֵיהֶם; וְנָשְׂאוּ, עֲו‍ֹנָם.  10 But the Levites, that went far from Me, when Israel went astray, that went astray from Me after their idols, they shall bear their iniquity;   יא  וְהָיוּ בְמִקְדָּשִׁי, מְשָׁרְתִים, פְּקֻד& #1468;וֹת אֶל-שַׁעֲרֵי הַבַּיִת, וּמְשָׁרְתִים אֶת-הַבָּיִת; הֵמָּה יִשְׁחֲטוּ אֶת-הָעוֹלָה וְאֶת-הַזֶּבַח, לָעָם, וְהֵמָּה יַעַמְדוּ לִפְנֵיהֶם, לְשָׁרְתָם.  11 and they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering in the house: they shall slay the burnt-offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.   יב  יַעַן, אֲשֶׁר יְשָׁרְתוּ אוֹתָם לִפְנֵי גִלּוּלֵיהֶם, וְהָיוּ לְבֵית-יִשְׂרָאֵל, לְמִכְשׁוֹל עָו‍ֹן; עַל-כֵּן נָשָׂאתִי יָדִי עֲלֵיהֶם, נְאֻם אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה, וְנָשְׂאוּ, עֲו‍ֹנָם.  12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and became a stumblingblock of iniquity unto the house of Israel; therefore have I lifted up My hand against them, saith the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their iniquity.   יג  וְלֹא-יִגְּשׁוּ אֵלַי, לְכַהֵן לִי, וְלָגֶשֶׁת עַל-כָּל-קָדָשַׁי, אֶל-קָדְשֵׁי הַקֳּדָשִׁים; וְנָשְׂאוּ, כְּלִמָּתָם, וְתוֹעֲבוֹתָם, אֲשֶׁר עָשׂוּ.  13 And they shall not come near unto Me, to minister unto Me in the priest's office, nor to come near to any of My holy things, unto the things that are most holy; but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.   יד  וְנָתַתִּי אוֹתָם, שֹׁמְרֵי מִשְׁמֶרֶת הַבָּיִת–לְכֹל, עֲבֹדָתוֹ, וּלְכֹל אֲשֶׁר יֵעָשֶׂה, בּוֹ.  {פ}  14 And I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein. {P}   טו  וְהַכֹּהֲנִים הַלְוִיִּם בְּנֵי צָדוֹק, אֲשֶׁר שָׁמְרוּ אֶת-מִשְׁמֶרֶת מִקְדָּשִׁי בִּתְעוֹת בְּנֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל מֵעָלַי–הֵמָּה יִקְרְבוּ אֵלַי, לְשָׁרְתֵנִי; וְעָמְדוּ לְפָנַי, לְהַקְרִיב לִי חֵלֶב וָדָם–נְאֻם, אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה.  15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near to Me to minister unto Me; and they shall stand before Me to offer unto Me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD;   Quote Ezekiel 48יא  לַכֹּהֲנִים הַמְקֻדָּשׁ מִבְּנֵי צָדוֹק, אֲשֶׁר שָׁמְרוּ מִשְׁמַרְתִּי–אֲשֶׁר לֹא-תָעוּ, בִּתְעוֹת בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, כַּאֲשֶׁר תָּעוּ, הַלְוִיִּם.  11 The sanctified portion shall be for the priests of the sons of Zadok, that have kept My charge, that went not astray when the children of Israel went astray, as the Levites went astray.   יב  וְהָיְתָה לָהֶם תְּרוּמִיָּה מִתְּרוּמַת הָאָרֶץ, קֹדֶשׁ קָדָשִׁים–אֶל-גְּבוּל, הַלְוִיִּם.  12 And it shall be unto them a portion set apart from the offering of the land, a thing most holy, by the border of the Levit es. Again for those reasons mentioned, it appears that this is the temple that was to be built after the Babylonian Captivity conditional upon the repentance of the Nation of Israel. Our God is worthy to be Praised Well if you compare the plans with the second temple you'll realize that the plans in Ezekiel were not used. Plus, look back to Ez 37:26 Eze 37:26  Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. Since the 2 temple did not use the plans in Ez 40-48 and it did not last 'for evermore', you have the answer. Shalom.

Hi Towshab:

The everlasting sanctuary is the Body of Christ.  His Body is the Holy Temple of God.

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Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

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Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

As I have said, the Jews who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah will indeed rebuild the temple and they will re-inistute animal sacrifice, but I have given you the following scripture which shows that the sacrifice will be stopped, and the abomination of desolation will be set up.  I'll post it for you again:

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Daniel 12:10יִתְבָּרְרוּ וְיִתְלַבְּנוּ וְיִצָּרְפוּ, רַבִּים, וְהִרְשִׁיעוּ רְשָׁעִים, וְלֹא יָבִינוּ כָּל-רְשָׁעִיםD וְהַמַּשְׂכִּלִים, יָבִינוּ.  10 Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but they that are wise shall understand.   יא  וּמֵעֵת הוּסַר הַתָּמִיד, וְלָתֵת שִׁקּוּץ שֹׁמֵם–יָמִים, אֶלֶף מָאתַיִם וְתִשְׁעִים.  11 And from the time that the continual burnt-offering shall be taken away, and the detestable thing that causes appalment set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.   יב  אַשְׁרֵי הַמְחַכֶּה, וְיַגִּיעַ:  לְיָמִים–אֶלֶף, שְׁלֹשׁ מֵאוֹת שְׁלֹשִׁים וַחֲמִשָּׁה.  12 Happy is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

You say:

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Well if you compare the plans with the second temple you'll realize that the plans in Ezekiel were not used. Plus, look back to Ez 37:26

I am aware that the plans for this temple were not used in building the temple after the Babylonian Captivity but according to what I have shown you they were supposed to be used, but there is nothing to say that it is to be the third temple.

I Praise My God for My Lord, His Son and His Christ, Jesus.

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Nov. 07 2007,18:05)

Quote Since the gospels were written after 70 AD this is a bogus assumption. I'm really not clear why you keep making this assertion. John's account was written much after 70 C.E. The rest, well before. None of the gospels mention the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 CE This is significant because Jesus had prophesied concerning the temple, that it would be torn down.

They do in a round about way.

Mat 26:61 and said, “This man said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to rebuild it in three days.'”

Mat 27:40 and saying, “You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”

Mar 14:58 “We heard him say, 'I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.'”

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

Of course Christians view 'this temple' as Jesus but it was quite convenient that the dating of the first gospel was seen to have been around the time of the destruction of the temple. Nice plot element. Most scholars put the first gospel, Mark, around 70 CE (see, I can change).

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Such an obvious fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy most likely would have been recorded as such by the gospel writers who were fond of mentioning fulfillment of prophecy if they had been written after 70 A.D. But to do that would spell certain doom for the validity of the gospel, would it not? After all Jesus was supposed to have died around 30-33 CE so including the destruction of the temple would have raised red flags a-plenty. Also, if the gospels were fabrications of mythical events then anything to bolster the Messianic claims — such as the destruction of the temple as Jesus said — would surely have been included.

See above. It would be a death knell for the validity rather than a bolster. After all they were trying to convince people that these accounts were eyewitnesses not writing from oral tradition and legend.

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But, it was not included suggesting that the gospels (at least Matthew, Mark, and Luke) were written before 70 CE Eusebius reported that Matthew wrote his Gospel before he left Palestine to preach in other lands, which Eusebius says happened about 12 years after the death of Christ. Some scholars believe that this would place the writing of Matthew as early as A.D. 40-45 and as late as A.D. 55.

Since Eusebius lived in the latter part of the 3rd century to early part of 4th century I wouldn't place too much trust in his word as to the actual validity of his claim.

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Nov. 07 2007,18:09)

Quote Back then, as today, the Messiah is a big deal. Quote Only among Christians. So what changed with the Jewish view then? were they wrong for thousands of years? What exactly is your view of the messiah? What has the view been of the Messiah among Jews for thousands of years? And why the change?

Any time the Jewish people fall into bondage they look for a deliverer. The trend started with Moses .

The simple view is that among Jews, at least orthodox and maybe conservative ones, that the end times Moschiach will usher in a time of peace and prosperity. Obviously that has not happened.

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Nov. 07 2007,18:16)

Quote Quote They had made a covenant with Jehovah. A covenant is an agreement. The terms of the Law covenant were that if the Israelites kept the covenant they would be a people for the name of Jehovah, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation, with His blessing (Ex 19:5, 6; De 28:1-14) The book of Judges testifies that they repeatedly turned away from false worship. In the days of the prophet Jeremiah, national unfaithfulness led to the nation’s being taken into exile in Babylon. Why did God also allow the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and its temple in 70 C.E.? Of what unfaithfulness had the nation been guilty so that God did not protect them as he had done when they had put their trust in him? It was shortly before this that they had rejected Jesus as the Messiah. Shortly by 40 years. Jesus was just a short blip on the radar. Someone turned their head or blinked an he was never even noticed. But Paul the Apostate heard about him and thought 'hey, its time to start a new religion called Judaism Lite: 0 Commandments, less filling.' Do you have any comments on what I actually said? And your Jesus was “never even noticed” statement has to be the most ridiculous thing anyone has ever said on here….ever. For someone who was hardly even noticed, he changed the world like no one else.

What more is there to say? If Jesus was the real Messiah people would have known yet the only 'proof' we have of him is in the Christian bible. Unless you want to look to the gnostic writings after that? The Jesus found in them is certainly not the same Jesus you see in the New Testament canon.

And my statement is not absurd. It is very relevant. Had Jesus been the so well known and so famous he should have made it into the real history books. Yet he didn't.

Let me ask you, do you believe in what Joseph Smith and Mohammed wrote, or what was wrote about them? If not, why?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 08 2007,13:38)

Let me ask you, do you believe in what Joseph Smith and Mohammed wrote, or what was wrote about them? If not, why?

Where is it written in the Old Testament that there would be no more books, prophecies, or words inspired by God?

Sure if God works through men, then there would be some sort of progression. You would also expect that there would be a counterfeit to that too. It would be expected that men should have the wisdom to know the difference. God hasn't made it impossible for man to know truth from lies.

Anyway, God inspires me. He has given me dreams. He has done miracles in my life. He has answered prayer. He has provided miraculously at times for me.

Are men who God works through allowed to write books about their experience? Of course.

God is still working through men today, just as he did in Yeshua's time, and before that too. I sometimes read books from men who have encountered God and also lived in recent times. I get inspiration from such.

Those who can only accept that which took place thousands of years ago, have no real living faith for themselves now.

Such people really only have tradition, teachings, and doctrine. But it is a living ongoing faith in God that is really important. Men who have encountered God are allowed to write of their experiences and teach what God has revealed to them.

[Towshab]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 07 2007,20:54)

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 08 2007,13:38) Let me ask you, do you believe in what Joseph Smith and Mohammed wrote, or what was wrote about them? If not, why? Where is it written in the Old Testament that there would be no more books, prophecies, or words inspired by God?

No where but I think some support that the age of prophecy had passed based on some scripture found in the Tanakh. I'll find it soon.

But the contention is not anything new. The contention is claiming that Jesus is the end times Moshiach when the Tanakh does not support his claim. Its not just the Jewish people its the Jewish bible. That is why evangelicals are not as successful with Jews as they are the rest of the world. If a Hebrew knows scripture they will typically reject Jesus.

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Sure if God works through men, then there would be some sort of progression. You would also expect that there would be a counterfeit to that too. It would be expected that men should have the wisdom to know the difference. God hasn't made it impossible for man to know truth from lies.

Please note than the majority of Christians are from Gentile nations. The Christians have not that much headway into the children of Israel. There has been some success but there has been some very questionable claims as well. It turns out many 'Messianic Jews' were never Jewish to begin with but people who took on Jewish names to push an agenda.

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Anyway, God inspires me. He has given me dreams. He has done miracles in my life. He has answered prayer. He has provided miraculously at times for me. Are men who God works through allowed to write books about their experience? Of course.

I agree. So do you also agree that these same men can be Muslim, Mormon, or any other world religion?

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God is still working through men today, just as he did in Yeshua's time, and before that too. I sometimes read books from men who have encountered God and also lived in recent times. I get inspiration from such. Those who can only accept that which took place thousands of years ago, have no real living faith for themselves now. Such people really only have tradition, teachings, and doctrine. But it is a living ongoing faith in God that is really important. Men who have encountered God are allowed to write of their experiences and teach what God has revealed to them.

Then if you feel this way you should embrace The Urantia writings or even Mormonism since both of them claims association with Christianity and have much more recent writings than the 1st century. The Urantia book was written in the early 1900s. L. Ron Hubbard wrote his works in what, the 1960s-70s? They should be much more up to date than the New Testament.

[Towshab]

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 07 2007,19:51)

Hi Towshab: The everlasting sanctuary is the Body of Christ. His Body is the Holy Temple of God. Quote Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. Quote Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. As I have said, the Jews who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah will indeed rebuild the temple and they will re-inistute animal sacrifice, but I have given you the following scripture which shows that the sacrifice will be stopped, and the abomination of desolation will be set up. I'll post it for you again: Quote Daniel 12:10יִתְבָּרְרוּ וְיִתְלַבְּנוּ וְיִצָּרְפוּ, רַבִּים, וְהִרְשִׁיעוּ רְשָׁעִים, וְלֹא יָבִינוּ כָּל-רְשָׁעִיםD וְהַמַּשְׂכִּלִים, יָבִינוּ. 10 Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but they that are wise shall understand. יא וּמֵעֵת הוּסַר הַתָּמִיד, וְלָתֵת שִׁקּוּץ שֹׁמֵם–יָמִים, אֶלֶף מָאתַיִם וְתִשְׁעִים. 11 And from the time that the continual burnt-offering shall be taken away, and the detestable thing that causes appalment set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. יב אַשְׁרֵי הַמְחַכֶּה, וְיַגִּיעַ: לְיָמִים–אֶלֶף, שְׁלֹשׁ מֵאוֹת שְׁלֹשִׁים וַחֲמִשָּׁה. 12 Happy is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. You say: Quote Well if you compare the plans with the second temple you'll realize that the plans in Ezekiel were not used. Plus, look back to Ez 37:26 I am aware that the plans for this temple were not used in building the temple after the Babylonian Captivity but according to what I have shown you they were supposed to be used, but there is nothing to say that it is to be the third temple. I Praise My God for My Lord, His Son and His Christ, Jesus.

I think if you research this more even most Christian scholars believe there will be a third temple.

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Nov. 07 2007,18:22)

Quote David, What makes anyone fall away from the faith? [Lack of] faith. What causes lack of faith? Doubt, deception, a thing called worldly wisdom, and pride. These favorite tools of the enemy are quite handy for getting the job done in people who are weak in body and/or in spirit (lately I am counted among these). Mandy! Leave this place. Your curiosity is not worth the reprecusions. If you want to study the Bible, do not make a stranger your guide. I think this particular thread moves far too fast. What's his name puts out way too much info, and few respond to it. And hopefully, few read it. I wish we could slow down and actually go over everything he believes. I wish we could discuss one topic at a time. What “test results”?

I do address your responses. I cannot help you can't keep up with mine. I don't watch TV .

This is why I wanted to make these threads private. I realize that what I present will rock people's foundations and it can be a very disturbing thing.

[Not3in1]

Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2007,11:22)

Quote David, What makes anyone fall away from the faith?  [Lack of] faith. What causes lack of faith?  Doubt, deception, a thing called worldly wisdom, and pride.  These favorite tools of the enemy are quite handy for getting the job done in people who are weak in body and/or in spirit (lately I am counted among these). Mandy!  Leave this place.  Your curiosity is not worth the reprecusions.  If you want to study the Bible, do not make a stranger your guide.  I think this particular thread moves far too fast.  What's his name puts out way too much info, and few respond to it.  And hopefully, few read it.  I wish we could slow down and actually go over everything he believes.  I wish we could discuss one topic at a time.   What “test results”?

Hello again, David –

Thanks for your concern. I believe I will take your advice and move on to other threads…..

My health has been a bit curious lately. It is believed that I may have a brain tumor. But they really don't know. If I do, it is not showing itself. So, various testing resumes in hopes of something rearing it's head. The process is leaving me physically/emotionally/spiritually tired. Thanks for asking, and if you think of me please say a few prayers.

Love,
Mandy

[942767]

Hi Towshab:

You say:

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I think if you research this more even most Christian scholars believe there will be a third temple.

I don't deny that there will be a third temple as I have already stated, but it will also be destroyed.

Also, you say in response to t8:

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(t8 @ Nov. 07 2007,20:54) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 08 2007,13:38) Let me ask you, do you believe in what Joseph Smith and Mohammed wrote, or what was wrote about them? If not, why? Where is it written in the Old Testament that there would be no more books, prophecies, or words inspired by God? No where but I think some support that the age of prophecy had passed based on some scripture found in the Tanakh. I'll find it soon.

This is God states regarding this subject:

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Joel Chapter 3 א  וְהָיָה אַחֲרֵי-כֵן, אֶשְׁפּוֹךְ אֶת-רוּחִי עַל-כָּל-בָּשָׂר, וְנִבְּאוּ, בְּנֵיכֶם וּבְנוֹתֵיכֶם; זִקְנֵיכֶם, חֲלֹמוֹת יַחֲלֹמוּן–בַּחוּרֵיכֶם, חֶזְיֹנוֹת יִרְאוּ.  1 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions;   ב  וְגַם עַל-הָעֲבָדִים, וְעַל-הַשְּׁפָחוֹת, בַּיָּמִים הָהֵמָּה, אֶשְׁפּוֹךְ אֶת-רוּחִי.  2 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My spirit.   ג  וְנָתַתִּי, מוֹפְתִים, בַּשָּׁמַיִם, וּבָאָרֶץ:  דָּם וָאֵשׁ, וְתִימְרוֹת עָשָׁן.  3 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.   ד  הַשֶּׁמֶשׁ יֵהָפֵךְ לְחֹשֶׁךְ, וְהַיָּרֵחַ לְדָם–לִפְנֵי, בּוֹא יוֹם יְהוָה, הַגָּדוֹל, וְהַנּוֹרָא.  4 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.   ה  וְהָיָה, כֹּל אֲשֶׁר-יִקְרָא בְּשֵׁם יְהוָה–יִמָּלֵט:  כִּי בְּהַר-צִיּוֹן וּבִירוּשָׁלִַם תִּהְיֶה פְלֵיטָה, כַּאֲשֶׁר אָמַר יְהוָה, וּבַשְּׂרִידִים, אֲשֶׁר יְהוָה קֹרֵא.  5 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as the LORD hath said, and among the remnant those whom the LORD shall call.

Praise My God, My Father, and the Father of My Lord Jesus

[Towshab]

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 07 2007,22:49)

Hi Towshab: You say: Quote I think if you research this more even most Christian scholars believe there will be a third temple. I don't deny that there will be a third temple as I have already stated, but it will also be destroyed.

How does that hold up in light of Ez 37:26 where it says that the temple will stand forever more? Or this verse

Eze 37:28 Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”

I really think you need to reread Ezekiel 37-48 and realize this is all about the house of Israel and NOT a spiritual Israel. Again do not forget this verse either

Zec 8:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'

Also, you say in response to t8:

Quote

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 07 2007,20:54) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 08 2007,13:38) Let me ask you, do you believe in what Joseph Smith and Mohammed wrote, or what was wrote about them? If not, why? Where is it written in the Old Testament that there would be no more books, prophecies, or words inspired by God? No where but I think some support that the age of prophecy had passed based on some scripture found in the Tanakh. I'll find it soon. This is God states regarding this subject: Quote Joel Chapter 3 א וְהָיָה אַחֲרֵי-כֵן, אֶשְׁפּוֹךְ אֶת-רוּחִי עַל-כָּל-בָּשָׂר, וְנִבְּאוּ, בְּנֵיכֶם וּבְנוֹתֵיכֶם; זִקְנֵיכֶם, חֲלֹמוֹת יַחֲלֹמוּן–בַּחוּרֵיכֶם, חֶזְיֹנוֹת יִרְאוּ. 1 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions; ב וְגַם עַל-הָעֲבָדִים, וְעַל-הַשְּׁפָחוֹת, בַּיָּמִים הָהֵמָּה, אֶשְׁפּוֹךְ אֶת-רוּחִי. 2 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My spirit. ג וְנָתַתִּי, מוֹפְתִים, בַּשָּׁמַיִם, וּבָאָרֶץ: דָּם וָאֵשׁ, וְתִימְרוֹת עָשָׁן. 3 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. ד הַשֶּׁמֶשׁ יֵהָפֵךְ לְחֹשֶׁךְ, וְהַיָּרֵחַ לְדָם–לִפְנֵי, בּוֹא יוֹם יְהוָה, הַגָּדוֹל, וְהַנּוֹרָא. 4 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. ה וְהָיָה, כֹּל אֲשֶׁר-יִקְרָא בְּשֵׁם יְהוָה–יִמָּלֵט: כִּי בְּהַר-צִיּוֹן וּבִירוּשָׁלִַם תִּהְיֶה פְלֵיטָה, כַּאֲשֶׁר אָמַר יְהוָה, וּבַשְּׂרִידִים, אֲשֶׁר יְהוָה קֹרֵא. 5 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as the LORD hath said, and among the remnant those whom the LORD shall call. Praise My God, My Father, and the Father of My Lord Jesus

Yes let me reemphasize this verse

Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.

Note here that G-d through Joel could have said 'everyone who calls on the name of My coming Moshiach' or 'everyone who calls on the name of My son' but He didn't. We will call on the name of YHVH.

Praise YHVH G-d!

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