Jesus, THE Messiah?

[Towshab]

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 05 2007,19:03)

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 06 2007,11:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 05 2007,13:00) What prophecy did Jesus not fulfill? The list would be shorter if people would list the ones he did fulfill. Two people on here threw out some lists they picked up from some web site and every one of the 'prophecies' were not that at all and they were taken out of context. Hi Towshab: I have the testimony dwelling with me that he fulfilled this one: Quote 18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Uh, prophecies that were predicted and fulfilled withing the same book don't really count ya know . Neither one can be verified. But nice try.

[942767]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 06 2007,12:39)

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 05 2007,19:03) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 06 2007,11:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 05 2007,13:00) What prophecy did Jesus not fulfill? The list would be shorter if people would list the ones he did fulfill. Two people on here threw out some lists they picked up from some web site and every one of the 'prophecies' were not that at all and they were taken out of context. Hi Towshab: I have the testimony dwelling with me that he fulfilled this one: Quote 18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. Uh, prophecies that were predicted and fulfilled withing the same book don't really count ya know  . Neither one can be verified. But nice try.

Hi Towshab:

You say that your expected Messiah will rebuild the temple.

The temple is the body of Christ.

Quote

Ephesians 2:14-22 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: F6 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

[Laurel]

Tow,
I quit reading all the rhetoric on this post. I did notice however that you stand for the Pharisees and are against the Saudasees. Typical of an Orthodox Jew. You are falling for a lie, or shpould I say, you fell for a lie. A big deep pit.

I see why you are against Messiah. He was against the teaching of the Pharisees, because like all religions, they teach their own understanding, because they do not have the SPirit of truth in them, and never will untill they see the Messiah.

You are still no closer to the truth, than when you thought you knew Jesus. It is plain to me, that you never knew Him in the first place. You are a wanderer in the world. You seek but you do not find. You think with your fleash because you have been blessed with a high IQ, but you have no common sense, and your life is mae difficult because of your head. Your problem is , you think too much, without using your intuition.

Maybe you should tru to develope your right brain. No, I am not being sarcastic. I know people just like you. In your world there is no reality except things you can see tast smell etc. You do not need faith, so you think. You are wrong though. Faith gets us through when the world does not have the answers. The Spirit however, always comes through for me. I see the truth, and it is backed up not only with Scripture, Old and New, bur they are in agreement.

You can argue all day, and plead your case here, but it will get thrown “out of court” because we all underneath our differences, have one thing in common. We all search for the truth with somewhat of open minds. We all believe Y'shua is the Messiah. You will not get any of us to change that. You have stepped into a hornets nest here. The truth stings!!!

Laurel

[Towshab]

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 05 2007,20:33)

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 06 2007,12:39) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 05 2007,19:03) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 06 2007,11:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 05 2007,13:00) What prophecy did Jesus not fulfill? The list would be shorter if people would list the ones he did fulfill. Two people on here threw out some lists they picked up from some web site and every one of the 'prophecies' were not that at all and they were taken out of context. Hi Towshab: I have the testimony dwelling with me that he fulfilled this one: Quote 18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. Uh, prophecies that were predicted and fulfilled withing the same book don't really count ya know . Neither one can be verified. But nice try. Hi Towshab: You say that your expected Messiah will rebuild the temple. The temple is the body of Christ. Quote Ephesians 2:14-22 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: F6 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The temple is the body of Christ? Truly? Well that's odd considering that Ezekiel details the construction of the third temple. Start reading at Ez 40. Unless you are saying G-d changed his mind?

[Towshab]

Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 06 2007,03:46)

Tow, I quit reading all the rhetoric on this post. I did notice however that you stand for the Pharisees and are against the Saudasees. Typical of an Orthodox Jew. You are falling for a lie, or shpould I say, you fell for a lie. A big deep pit. I see why you are against Messiah. He was against the teaching of the Pharisees, because like all religions, they teach their own understanding, because they do not have the SPirit of truth in them, and never will untill they see the Messiah. You are still no closer to the truth, than when you thought you knew Jesus. It is plain to me, that you never knew Him in the first place. You are a wanderer in the world. You seek but you do not find. You think with your fleash because you have been blessed with a high IQ, but you have no common sense, and your life is mae difficult because of your head. Your problem is , you think too much, without using your intuition. Maybe you should tru to develope your right brain. No, I am not being sarcastic. I know people just like you. In your world there is no reality except things you can see tast smell etc. You do not need faith, so you think. You are wrong though. Faith gets us through when the world does not have the answers. The Spirit however, always comes through for me. I see the truth, and it is backed up not only with Scripture, Old and New, bur they are in agreement. You can argue all day, and plead your case here, but it will get thrown “out of court” because we all underneath our differences, have one thing in common. We all search for the truth with somewhat of open minds. We all believe Y'shua is the Messiah. You will not get any of us to change that. You have stepped into a hornets nest here. The truth stings!!! Laurel

Haha another judgmental Christian! You folks often show your true colors. You sure know how to read people's spiritual conditions don't you? I know because the most Christians believe they are right and most everyone else is wrong. All who oppose will burn in hell I assume.

And if you knew anything you'd realize that Jesus was likely a Pharisee himself following in the footsteps of his teacher Hillel. The Pharisees that Jesus was against were likely following the teachings of Shimmei. But nevermind that you think you know me (and Jesus) so ignore this.

Yes I think too much. Shame I had to go and read about all of those prophecies that Jesus did not fulfill. I should ignore those and be led by my heart!

What I find truly amazing is that most of you just attack me personally while not really answering the conflicts I show. David, 942767, and Is 1s 1:18 at least try. That shows me that you have your head in the sand and you think that you can exorcise me from the forum. Too bad you can't throw e-holy water on me.

[Towshab]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 06 2007,05:22)

Laurel,Nov. wrote: Tow, I quit reading all the rhetoric on this post. I did notice however that you stand for the Pharisees and are against the Saudasees. Typical of an Orthodox Jew.

By the way, the Sadducees did not believe in afterlife or angels. They believed in a literal interpretation of 'an eye for an eye' which as you know Jesus did not. So if you think they had it right then more power to ya. And know that it was a wicked Sadducee who was high priest when the second temple fell.

[charity]

Jesus talks with the rabbi of the synagogue of Nazareth.

Interesting

The Aquarian gospel

NOW, Rabbi Barachia of the synagogue of Nazareth, was aid to Mary in the teaching of her son. 2 One morning after service in the synagogue the rabbi said to Jesus as he sat in silent thought, Which is the greatest of the Ten Commands? 3 And Jesus said, I do not see a greatest of the Ten Commands. I see a golden cord that runs through all the Ten Commands that binds them fast and makes them one. 4 This cord is love, and it belongs to every word of all the Ten Commands. 5 If one is full of love he can do nothing else than worship God; for God is love. 6 If one is full of love, he cannot kill; he cannot falsely testify; he cannot covet; can do naught but honour God and man. 7 If one is full of love he does not need commands of any kind.

8 And Rabbi Barachia said, Your words are seasoned with the salt of wisdom that is from above. Who is the teacher who has opened up this truth to you. 9 And Jesus said, I do not know that any teacher opens up this truth for me. It seems to me that truth was never shut; that it was always opened up, for truth is one and it is everywhere. 10 And if we open up the windows of our minds the truth will enter in and make herself at home; for truth can find her way through any crevice, any window, any open door. 11 The rabbi said, What hand is strong enough to open up the windows and the doors of mind so truth can enter in? 12 And Jesus said, It seems to me that love, the golden cord that binds the Ten Commands in one, is strong enough to open any human door so that the truth can enter in and cause the heart to understand.

[charity]

One Ask

Don’t you trade your passion for glory

[Towshab]

Quote (charity @ Nov. 06 2007,06:33)

Jesus talks with the rabbi of the synagogue of Nazareth. Interesting The Aquarian gospel NOW, Rabbi Barachia of the synagogue of Nazareth, was aid to Mary in the teaching of her son. 2 One morning after service in the synagogue the rabbi said to Jesus as he sat in silent thought, Which is the greatest of the Ten Commands? 3 And Jesus said, I do not see a greatest of the Ten Commands. I see a golden cord that runs through all the Ten Commands that binds them fast and makes them one. 4 This cord is love, and it belongs to every word of all the Ten Commands. 5 If one is full of love he can do nothing else than worship God; for God is love. 6 If one is full of love, he cannot kill; he cannot falsely testify; he cannot covet; can do naught but honour God and man. 7 If one is full of love he does not need commands of any kind. 8 And Rabbi Barachia said, Your words are seasoned with the salt of wisdom that is from above. Who is the teacher who has opened up this truth to you. 9 And Jesus said, I do not know that any teacher opens up this truth for me. It seems to me that truth was never shut; that it was always opened up, for truth is one and it is everywhere. 10 And if we open up the windows of our minds the truth will enter in and make herself at home; for truth can find her way through any crevice, any window, any open door. 11 The rabbi said, What hand is strong enough to open up the windows and the doors of mind so truth can enter in? 12 And Jesus said, It seems to me that love, the golden cord that binds the Ten Commands in one, is strong enough to open any human door so that the truth can enter in and cause the heart to understand.

Thats is a bold quote considering the Aquarian Gospel was published in 1908 . It looks very gnostic in flair. Do you consider yourself gnostic?

[charity]

[charity]

The Aquarian Age Gospel of Jesus, the Christ of the Piscean Age) “claims” to be the true story …Just Like you do?

Most of the sorces claim their rights as the truth don't u think?

I did say “Interesting”

Gnostic..Depends on what the persons Identifies a Gnostic as,
I hate to answering opinions that’s where it all goes wrong!

Ecc 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books [there is] no end; and much study [is] a weariness of the flesh.

[acertainchap]

Quote (david @ Oct. 28 2007,19:38)

Quote What exactly are you saying here?

Simply put…. Giants in Genesis: Dinosaurs

Can anyone think of what they could be except dinosaurs?

[Morningstar]

Quote (acertainchap @ Nov. 07 2007,01:05)

Quote (david @ Oct. 28 2007,19:38) Quote What exactly are you saying here? Simply put…. Giants in Genesis: Dinosaurs Can anyone think of what they could be except dinosaurs?

Giants like Goliath, Og of Bashan, Gog and Magog.

The anakim, zamzummin, Rephaims….etc…etc..

[Not3in1]

Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 06 2007,20:46)

It is plain to me, that you never knew Him in the first place. You are a wanderer in the world.

I have been praying for some confirmation regarding what, I believe, the Lord told me concerning Tow. The Lord told me he never knew him, and that he was a “stranger”. Well, come to find out, someone looked up his name in Hebrew and it meant “Stranger.”

Having asked for confirmation, I find this post by sister Laurel.

In listening to this stranger, I nearly was deceived! Yes! The one who warned other's was nearly taken in by the words of the one who has “never knew him”.

Again, I caution those who feed this fire. You avail nothing, but to only further puts his words of falsehood out there for more to stumble on. OUCH! I know I stumbled……

1 Corinthians 15:58

Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you.

Amen! And thank you sister Laurel for being used of the Lord. Also to brother Ken who sent me a PM with words of knowledge that I needed. This is truly a body of Christ!

[acertainchap]

1 Thessalonians 5:21 – “Test all things and hold fast what is good.”

[david]

Quote

Well, come to find out, someone looked up his name in Hebrew and it meant “Stranger.”

It means sojourner or stranger.

In these Bibles, it is translated as the following words:

KJV (14) – foreigner, 2; sojourner, 9; stranger, 3;

NAS (14) – foreign resident, 1; settlers, 1; sojourner, 8; sojourners, 2; sojourning, 1; tenants, 1;

Quote

In listening to this stranger, I nearly was deceived! Yes!

In what were you nearly decieved. Most everything he says about contradictions….is ridiculous. He doesn't have a grasp of the word. (or the Word.)

But I am curious as to how or what he almost decieved you with.

david.

[david]

GENEALOGY OF JESUS CHRIST

In the first chapter of Matthew we find the genealogy of Jesus running from Abraham forward. At Luke chapter 3 is a genealogy back to “Adam, son of God.” Jesus’ genealogy is the only one given in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Part of his genealogy appears at 1 Chronicles chapters 1 to 3, running from Adam through Solomon and Zerubbabel. The books of Genesis and Ruth combined give the line from Adam to David.

The latter three lists (Genesis/Ruth, 1 Chronicles, and Luke) agree fully from Adam to Arpachshad, with minor differences as to certain names, such as Kenan, which is “Cainan” at Luke 3:37. The Chronicles and Genesis/Ruth lists agree down to David, while another “Cainan” is found in Luke’s account between Arpachshad and Shelah.—Lu 3:35, 36.

From Solomon to Zerubbabel, the Chronicles record and Matthew agree in the main, Matthew omitting some names. These differences and differences in Luke’s account from David to Jesus will be discussed later.

Besides many private family records, the Jews kept public records of genealogies and that the chroniclers, such as Ezra, had access to these when compiling their lists; also, that the public registers existed in the first century evidently up until 70 C.E. The matter of the descent of the Messiah from Abraham, and through David, was of prime importance to them. So we can be confident that both Matthew and Luke consulted these genealogical tables.

Reliability of the Gospel Genealogies.
The question arises: Why does Matthew leave out some names that are contained in the listings of the other chroniclers? First of all, to prove one’s genealogy it was not necessary to name every link in the line of descent. For example, Ezra, in proving his priestly lineage, at Ezra 7:1-5, omitted several names contained in the listing of the priestly line at 1 Chronicles 6:1-15. Obviously it was not essential to name all these ancestors to satisfy the Jews as to his priestly lineage. Similarly with Matthew: He doubtless used the public register and copied from it, if not every name, the ones necessary to prove the descent of Jesus from Abraham and David. He also had access to the Hebrew Scriptures, which he could consult alongside the official public records.—Compare Ru 4:12, 18-22 and Mt 1:3-6.

The lists made by both Matthew and Luke were comprised of names publicly recognized by the Jews of that time as authentic. The scribes and Pharisees as well as the Sadducees were bitter enemies of Christianity, and they would have used any possible argument to discredit Jesus, but it is noteworthy that they never challenged these genealogies. If either Matthew’s or Luke’s genealogy of Jesus had been in error, what an opportunity it would have been for these opponents to prove it then and there! For until 70 C.E. they evidently had ready access to the public genealogical registers and the Scriptures.

The same is true regarding the first-century pagan enemies of Christianity, many of whom were, like those Jews, learned men who would readily have pointed to any evidence that these lists of Matthew and Luke were unauthentic and contradictory. But there is no record that the early pagan enemies attacked Christians on this point.

Also, both Matthew and Luke achieved their objective, and that was all they needed to do. To prove that Jesus was descended from Abraham and David, it was not necessary to make a new genealogy. All they had to do was copy from the public tables that the nation fully accepted regarding the lineage of David and of the priesthood and all other matters requiring proof of one’s descent. (See Lu 1:5; 2:3-5; Ro 11:1.) Even if there was an omission in these tables, it did not detract from what these Gospel writers intended and indeed accomplished, namely, presenting legally and publicly recognized proof of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah.

Problems in Matthew’s Genealogy of Jesus.
Matthew divides the genealogy from Abraham to Jesus into three sections of 14 generations each. (Mt 1:17) This division may have been made as a memory aid. However, in counting the names we find that they total 41, rather than 42. One suggestion as to how they may be counted is as follows: By taking Abraham to David, 14 names, then using David as the starting name for the second 14, with Josiah as the last; finally, by heading the third series of 14 names with Jeconiah (Jehoiachin) and ending with Jesus. Notice that Matthew repeats the name David as the last of the first 14 names and as the first of the next 14. Then he repeats the expression “the deportation to Babylon,” which he links with Josiah and his sons.—Mt 1:17.

As stated earlier, Matthew may have copied his list exactly from the public register that he used, or he may have purposely left out some links with a view to aiding memory. However, a suggestion as to the omission here of three kings of David’s line between Jehoram and Uzziah (Azariah) is that Jehoram married wicked Athaliah of the house of Ahab, the daughter of Jezebel, thereby bringing this God-condemned strain into the line of the kings of Judah. (1Ki 21:20-26; 2Ki 8:25-27) Naming Jehoram as first in the wicked alliance, Matthew omits the names of the next three kings to the fourth generation, Ahaziah, Jehoash, and Amaziah, the fruits of the alliance.—Compare Mt 1:8 with 1Ch 3:10-12.

Matthew indicates that Zerubbabel is the son of Shealtiel (Mt 1:12), and this coincides with other references. (Ezr 3:2; Ne 12:1; Hag 1:14; Lu 3:27) However, at 1 Chronicles 3:19 Zerubbabel is referred to as the son of Pedaiah. Evidently Zerubbabel was the natural son of Pedaiah and the legal son of Shealtiel by reason of brother-in-law marriage; or possibly, after Zerubbabel’s father Pedaiah died, Zerubbabel was brought up by Shealtiel as his son and therefore became legally recognized as the son of Shealtiel.

A Problem in Luke’s Genealogy of Jesus.
Available manuscript copies of Luke list a second “Cainan,” between Arpachshad (Arphaxad) and Shelah. (Lu 3:35, 36; compare Ge 10:24; 11:12; 1Ch 1:18, 24.) Most scholars take this to be a copyist’s error. In the Hebrew Scriptures, “Cainan” is not found in this relative position in the genealogical listings in the Hebrew or the Samaritan texts, nor is it in any of the Targums or versions except the Greek Septuagint. And it does not seem that it was even in the earlier copies of the Septuagint, because Josephus, who usually follows the Septuagint, lists Seles (Shelah) next as the son of Arphaxades (Arpachshad). (Jewish Antiquities, I, 146 [vi, 4]) Early writers Irenaeus, Africanus, Eusebius, and Jerome rejected the second “Cainan” in copies of Luke’s account as an interpolation.
[[One listed in Luke’s genealogy of Jesus Christ as the son of Arpachshad. (Lu 3:36) The name Cainan appears in genealogical lists in present copies of the Greek Septuagint, such as the Alexandrine Manuscript of the fifth century C.E. (Ge 10:24; 11:12, 13; 1Ch 1:18 but not 1Ch 1:24), although it is not found in extant Hebrew manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures. The name Cainan is also missing at Luke 3:36 in two Bible manuscripts (Papyrus Bodmer 14, 15, of c. 200 C.E.; Bezae Codices, of the fifth and sixth centuries C.E.). This omission is in harmony with the Masoretic text at Genesis 10:24; 11:12, 15; and 1 Chronicles 1:18, according to which Shelah, not Cainan, is the son of Arpachshad.]]

Why do the genealogies of Jesus Christ as given by Matthew and by Luke differ?
The difference in nearly all the names in Luke’s genealogy of Jesus as compared with Matthew’s is quickly resolved in the fact that Luke traced the line through David’s son Nathan, instead of Solomon as did Matthew. (Lu 3:31; Mt 1:6, 7) Luke evidently follows the ancestry of Mary, thus showing Jesus’ natural descent from David, while Matthew shows Jesus’ legal right to the throne of David by descent from Solomon through Joseph, who was legally Jesu
s’ father. Both Matthew and Luke signify that Joseph was not Jesus’ actual father but only his adoptive father, giving him legal right. Matthew departs from the style used throughout his genealogy when he comes to Jesus, saying: “Jacob became father to Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.” (Mt 1:16) Notice that he does not say ‘Joseph became father to Jesus’ but that he was “the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born.” Luke is even more pointed when, after showing earlier that Jesus was actually the Son of God by Mary (Lu 1:32-35), he says: “Jesus . . . being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph, son of Heli.”—Lu 3:23.

Since Jesus was not the natural son of Joseph but was the Son of God, Luke’s genealogy of Jesus would prove that he was, by human birth, a son of David through his natural mother Mary. Regarding the genealogies of Jesus given by Matthew and by Luke, Frederic Louis Godet wrote: “This study of the text in detail leads us in this way to admit—1. That the genealogical register of Luke is that of Heli, the grandfather of Jesus; 2. That, this affiliation of Jesus by Heli being expressly opposed to His affiliation by Joseph, the document which he has preserved for us can be nothing else in his view than the genealogy of Jesus through Mary. But why does not Luke name Mary, and why pass immediately from Jesus to His grandfather? Ancient sentiment did not comport with the mention of the mother as the genealogical link. Among the Greeks a man was the son of his father, not of his mother; and among the Jews the adage was: ‘Genus matris non vocatur genus [“The descendant of the mother is not called (her) descendant”]’ (‘Baba bathra,’ 110, a).”—Commentary on Luke, 1981, p. 129.

Actually each genealogy (Matthew’s table and Luke’s) shows descent from David, through Solomon and through Nathan. (Mt 1:6; Lu 3:31) In examining the lists of Matthew and Luke, we find that after diverging at Solomon and Nathan, they come together again in two persons, Shealtiel and Zerubbabel. This can be explained in the following way: Shealtiel was the son of Jeconiah; perhaps by marriage to the daughter of Neri he became Neri’s son-in-law, thus being called the “son of Neri.” It is possible as well that Neri had no sons, so that Shealtiel was counted as his “son” for that reason also. Zerubbabel, who was likely the actual son of Pedaiah, was legally reckoned as the son of Shealtiel, as stated earlier.—Compare Mt 1:12; Lu 3:27; 1Ch 3:17-19.

Then the accounts indicate that Zerubbabel had two sons, Rhesa and Abiud, the lines diverging again at this point. (These could have been, not actual sons, but descendants, or one, at least, could have been a son-in-law. Compare 1Ch 3:19.) (Lu 3:27; Mt 1:13) Both Matthew’s and Luke’s genealogies of Jesus vary here from that found in 1 Chronicles chapter 3. This may be because a number of names were purposely left out by Matthew and possibly also by Luke. But the fact should be kept in mind that such differences in the genealogical lists of Matthew and Luke are very likely those already present in the genealogical registers then in use and fully accepted by the Jews and were not changes made by Matthew and Luke.

We may conclude, therefore, that the two lists of Matthew and Luke fuse together the two truths, namely, (1) that Jesus was actually the Son of God and the natural heir to the Kingdom by miraculous birth through the virgin girl Mary, of David’s line, and (2) that Jesus was also the legal heir in the male line of descent from David and Solomon through his adoptive father Joseph. (Lu 1:32, 35; Ro 1:1-4) If there was any accusation made by hostile Jews that Jesus’ birth was illegitimate, the fact that Joseph, aware of the circumstances, married Mary and gave her the protection of his good name and royal lineage refutes such slander.

[david]

Towshab, I'm curious, just to know what you make of the serpent that deceived Eve.

Of course you know what I believe regarding this. But being that you don't believe Satan is a personal being (but rather that word (opposer/resister) simply meant different ones) I'm wondering how you understand the Genesis account.

david

[david]

The historical evidence found in the Gospels demonstrates that Jesus was indeed the Messiah.

Persons in the first century, who were in position to question the witnesses and examine the evidence, accepted the historical information as authentic.
[[For example, on the matter of geneology, as was stated above: The lists made by both Matthew and Luke were comprised of names publicly recognized by the Jews of that time as authentic. The scribes and Pharisees as well as the Sadducees were bitter enemies of Christianity, and they would have used any possible argument to discredit Jesus, but it is noteworthy that they never challenged these genealogies. If either Matthew’s or Luke’s genealogy of Jesus had been in error, what an opportunity it would have been for these opponents to prove it then and there! For until 70 C.E. they evidently had ready access to the public genealogical registers and the Scriptures.

The same is true regarding the first-century pagan enemies of Christianity, many of whom were, like those Jews, learned men who would readily have pointed to any evidence that these lists of Matthew and Luke were unauthentic and contradictory. But there is no record that the early pagan enemies attacked Christians on this point.]]

The historical Gospel records show that various individuals openly acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ, or Messiah. (Mt 16:16; Joh 1:41, 45, 49; 11:27) Jesus did not say they were incorrect, and on occasion he admitted being the Christ. (Mt 16:17; Joh 4:25, 26)

Since Jesus was present where people could hear him and see his works, he wanted them to believe on the solid basis of this evidence, so that their faith would be founded on their own eyewitness view of the fulfillment of the Hebrew Scriptures. (Joh 5:36; 10:24, 25; compare Joh 4:41, 42.)

Now the Gospel record of what Jesus was and did has been provided along with the Hebrew Scriptures, which supplied abundant information about what he would do, so that individuals may know and believe that Jesus is indeed the Messiah.—Joh 20:31

Ge 49:10 Born of the tribe Mt 1:2-16; Lu 3:23-33; Heb 7:14
of Judah

Ps 132:11; From the family of Mt 1:1, 6-16; 9:27; Ac 13:22, 23;
Isa 9:7; David the son of Ro 1:3; 15:8, 12
11:1, Jesse
11:10

Mic 5:2 Born in Bethlehem Lu 2:4-11; Joh 7:42

Isa 7:14 Born of a virgin Mt 1:18-23; Lu 1:30-35

Jer 31:15 Babes killed after Mt 2:16-18
his birth

Ho 11:1 Called out of Mt 2:15
Egypt

Mal 3:1; Way prepared Mt 3:1-3; 11:10-14;
4:5; before 17:10-13; Lu 1:17, 76;
Isa 40:3 3:3-6; 7:27; Joh 1:20-23;
3:25-28; Ac 13:24; 19:4

Isa 61:1, 2 Commissioned Lu 4:18-21

Isa 9:1, 2 Ministry caused Mt 4:13-16
people in Naphtali
and Zebulun to see
great light

Ps 78:2 Spoke with Mt 13:11-13, 31-35
illustrations

Isa 53:4 Carried our Mt 8:16, 17
sicknesses

Ps 69:9 Zealous for Mt 21:12, 13; Joh 2:13-17
Jehovah’s house

Isa 42:1-4 As Jehovah’s Mt 12:14-21
servant, would not
wrangle in streets

Isa 53:1 Not believed in Joh 12:37, 38; Ro 10:11, 16

Zec 9:9; Entry into Mt 21:1-9; Mr 11:7-11;
Ps 118:26 Jerusalem on colt Lu 19:28-38;
of an ass; hailed Joh 12:12-15
as king and one
coming in Jehovah’s
name

Isa 28:16; Rejected but Mt 21:42, 45, 46; Ac 3:14;
53:3; becomes chief 4:11; 1Pe 2:7
Ps 69:8; cornerstone
118:22, 23

Isa 8:14, 15 Becomes stone of Lu 20:17, 18; Ro 9:31-33
stumbling

Ps 41:9; One apostle Mt 26:47-50; Joh 13:18, 26-30;
109:8 unfaithful, betrays Ac 1:16-20
him

Zec 11:12 Betrayed for 30 Mt 26:15; 27:3-10; Mr 14:10, 11
pieces of silver

Zec 13:7 Disciples scatter Mt 26:31, 56; Joh 16:32

Ps 2:1, 2 Roman powers and Mt 27:1, 2; Mr 15:1, 15;
leaders of Israel Lu 23:10-12; Ac 4:25-28
act together against
anointed of Jehovah

Isa 53:8 Tried and condemned Mt 26:57-68; 27:1, 2, 11-26;
Joh 18:12-14, 19-24, 28-40;
19:1-16

Ps 27:12 Use of false Mt 26:59-61; Mr 14:56-59
witnesses

Isa 53:7 Silent before Mt 27:12-14; Mr 14:61;
accusers 15:4, 5; Lu 23:9

Ps 69:4 Hated without cause Lu 23:13-25; Joh 15:24, 25

Isa 50:6; Struck, spit on Mt 26:67; 27:26, 30; Joh 19:3
Mic 5:1

Ps 22:16, ftn
Impaled Mt 27:35; Mr 15:24, 25;
Lu 23:33; Joh 19:18, 23;
20:25, 27

Ps 22:18 Lots cast for Mt 27:35; Joh 19:23, 24
garments

Isa 53:12 Numbered with Mt 26:55, 56; 27:38;
sinners Lu 22:37

Ps 22:7, 8 Reviled while on Mt 27:39-43; Mr 15:29-32
stake

Ps 69:21 Given vinegar and Mt 27:34, 48; Mr 15:23, 36
gall

Ps 22:1 Forsaken by God to Mt 27:46; Mr 15:34
enemies

Ps 34:20; No bones broken Joh 19:33, 36
Ex 12:46

Isa 53:5; Pierced Mt 27:49; Joh 19:34, 37;
Zec 12:10 Re 1:7

Isa 53:5, Dies sacrificial Mt 20:28; Joh 1:29;
8, death to carry away Ro 3:24; 4:25; 1Co 15:3;
11, sins and open way Heb 9:12-15; 1Pe 2:24;
12 to righteous 1Jo 2:2
standing with God

Isa 53:9 Buried with the Mt 27:57-60; Joh 19:38-42

rich

Jon 1:17; In grave parts of Mt 12:39, 40; 16:21; 17:23;
2:10 three days, then 27:64; 28:1-7; Ac 10:40;
resurrected 1Co 15:3-8

Ps 16:8-11, ftn
Raised before Ac 2:25-31; 13:34-37
corruption

Ps 2:7 Jehovah declares Mt 3:16, 17; Mr 1:9-11;
him His Son by Lu 3:21, 22; Ac 13:33;
spirit begetting Ro 1:4; Heb 1:5; 5:5
and by resurrection

I know these probably didn't line up. But these prophecies are really what it's all about. “messiah the leader” was prophesied to come. Prophecies were given explaining what he would do, where he would arrive, the time of his arrival, etc.

Towshab, before you've said that all these are taken out of context. Well, we might as well discuss them.

[david]

Towshab also often makes the argument that this is all fantasy, that it's all made up, the gospels. It's a made up story, of events that just didn't happen.

Back then, as today, the Messiah is a big deal.

If someone today [Fred] said they were the messiah and their friends wrote a story about it, how would that go.

Well, that story would have details that could either be verified or not verified by other witnesses. People would say: You were never there. I was there on that day. (Unless this Fred guy decides to make his story take place where there are no other humans, in the wilderness).

We don't know of people claiming that Jesus was simply a made up person or that he wasn't born where he claimed or that he wasn't born when it claimed, etc.

Jesus had great opponents, who would have done anything to discredit him. If they could not discredit him, get rid of him. They could not discredit him them. It would have been fantastically easy.

About as easy as it is today to discredit anyone claiming to be the Messiah.

[Author]

Posts