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Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 03 2007,17:21) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 04 2007,05:34) No matter how you view it, Jesus was not of the seed of David and Solomon. His chance of sitting on the throne of David was doomed by his lineage.
That's because Jesus is God's literal Son and from the incoruptable seed of God, himself.Our Father is the root of David. Jesus is the root and offspring of David.
If you think about it – we are all from the seed of David – from the seed of Abraham – from the seed of God.
If this is true why bother to list the controversial lineages at all? Luke's is not through Solomon, both pass through the cursed blood line, and Luke never says that the line is through Mary. Having the genealogies presents more issues than if they have never been included.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 03 2007,18:07) Did you read the articles?
Yes. There are no rights through adoption. If Joseph adopted Jesus than all would know he was a mamzer and he would never have been accepted as the Messiah at all in that case. If you still assume Mary you then violate the line because Luke's is through Nathan.Hi Towshab.
I know that you do not believe that Yeshua is the messiah, but this is what he said to the Pharisees.
John 8:42
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.According to him and anyone who follows the messiah, you cannot know God if you cannot recognize the one who came from him.
We also know that there is a history of rejection of the prophets too, not just the messiah.
Matthew 23:36-39
36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'Anyway, it appears from Yeshua's words that you are arguing the Pharisees point of view. They too (or many of them) rejected Yeshua as the messiah. And after Yeshua was rejected, the history of the Jewish people took a turn for the worse as Yeshua said it would.
The Pharisees went down in history as men who followed the Law, but neglected the spirit of the law.
So they tithed etc, but they didn't know the meaning of compassion and other qualities that God expects from us.
But at least I think we can both agree that to reject God's messiah, is to reject God.
So it boils down to 3 possibilities logically speaking.
- Yehsua is the messiah and you are wrong.
- You are right and Yeshua is not the messiah.
- Both of you are wrong.
The problem that you have however is that you may be able to argue against Yeshua being the messiah, but you cannot argue against his words.
Also, from my point of view and millions of others, you cannot argue against our testimony. God has done things in my life and spoken to me in a way that makes me know God intimately. Others will tell you the same thing
When I believed that Yeshua was the messiah of YHWH, God worked in my life profoundly. This is something that you will find very difficult, or even impossible to change or even believe. i.e., a persons experience of God through the messiah.
You reject the messiah. But that is nothing new. Many also rejected the prophets that came before him too. Yeshua said the following:
Romans 10:19
But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, “I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU.”Deuteronomy 32:21
They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation,So here we are 2000 or so years later. And God has worked through the Gentiles of which I am one.
The Jewish God loves Gentiles too because he created man in his image (Jew and Gentile) and he works through us because he loves us and to also provoke you to jealousy, in the hope that you will turn to God by accepting his messiah and the prophets of whom your people rejected all those years ago.
Quote (Towshab @ Oct. 30 2007,13:54) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 29 2007,17:12) Hi Towshab: The very fact that there was a curse on Jeconiah and his seed perhaps indicates that God had an alternative means of keeping his promise to David, and this was through the virgin birth of Jesus.
There are other reasons why the Messiah cannot be a man born of the sperm of man.
God Bless
Hello 942767,This answer is certainly one that comes from the heart. I know you want to believe that the Christian bible is true but I ask you: why would G-d choose this genealogy if there were some obvious holes in it? He could have chosen someone else. Surely G-d didn't forget His promise that Jeconiah's bloodline was cursed did He? And it is all ruined with the virgin birth in any case.
You DO know that virgin birthes by a deity were a popular pagan beliefs around that time right?
What are the other reasons that the Messiah cannot be born of sperm of a man? Let's discuss those and see if they are valid.
Hi Towshab:Sorry for the delay in responding to your post. I have been away doing a little praying asking God to bring us both to the knowledge of the truth so that we can walk in unity and teach not any other Word but the Word of God in truth.
Through a personal experience that I had in 1985 God showed me that all men born of the sperm of man is the seed of unrighteousness in that all men have sinned. In this same experience he showed me in a vision with an anointed band being wrapped around my forehead, and he showed me son taken captive on a ship bound for Greece. At this time I went for him asking him if he was ready to listen to what God had to say to him through me. At that time he was ready to listen.
I wanted to share this whole vision with you at this time, but I only want to deal, here, with the reality that all men have sinned.
From the what we Christians call the Old Testament the scripture states:
Quote Ec 7:20
For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.From the New Testament the scripture states:
Quote Ro 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:From the Old Testament the scripture states:
Quote Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himSo, do you agree with me that all men have sinned whether Jew or gentile and that all men are accountable to God for their sins?
As for the genealogies, perhaps we can look in Ezra or Nehemiah for some clues through the captives who came back from Babylonian captivity. Perhaps we can do this at a later time.
God Bless
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 04 2007,10:07) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 03 2007,17:35) Jesus is the seed of David, by adoption through Joseph and by blood through Mary. http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-son-of-David.html
Adoption does not count because he will not be the seed of David. Mary's lineage (assuming it is because Luke says it is Joseph's lineage) goes through Nathan when the it must go through Solomon1Ch 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.
1Ch 22:10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.What other problem is there in BOTH genealogies? The both include Shealtiel. Shealtiel is the son of Jeconiah (Coniah). What do we know of this king?
===============================
Jer 22:24 As I live, saith the LORD, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were the signet upon my right hand, yet would I pluck thee thence;
Jer 22:25 And I will give thee into the hand of them that seek thy life, and into the hand of them whose face thou fearest, even into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of the Chaldeans.
Jer 22:26 And I will cast thee out, and thy mother that bare thee, into another country, where ye were not born; and there shall ye die.
Jer 22:27 But to the land whereunto they desire to return, thither shall they not return.
Jer 22:28 Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not?
Jer 22:29 O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.
Jer 22:30 Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.
===============================Here is the lineage
===============================
1Ch 3:16 And the sons of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.
1Ch 3:17 And the sons of Jeconiah – the same is Assir – Shealtiel his son;
===============================The seed of Jeconiah was cursed by G-d to never sit the throne of David.
The ProblemGod announced very early that His plan for redemption involved the Messiah being brought forth from the tribe of Judah, and specifically from the line of David. The succession of subsequent kings proved to be, with only a few exceptions, a dismal chain. As the succeeding kings of Judah went from bad to worse, we eventually encounter Jeconiah (also known as Jehoiachin), upon whom God pronounces a ” blood curse” : “Thus saith the Lord, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.”(Jeremiah 22:30)
This curse created a rather grim and perplexing paradox: the Messiah had to come from the royal line, yet now there was a “blood curse” on that very line of descent! (I always visualize a celebration in the councils of Satan on that day. But then I imagine God turning to His angels, saying, “Watch this one!”)
The Solution
The answer emerges in the differing genealogies of Jesus Christ recorded in the gospels. Matthew, as a Levi, focuses his gospel on the Messiahship of Jesus and presents Him as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. Thus, Matthew traces the legal line from Abraham (as any Jew would) through David, then through Solomon (the . royal. line) to Joseph, the legal father of Jesus.
On the other hand, Luke, as a physician, focuses on the humanity of Jesus and presents Him as the Son of Man. Luke traces the blood line from Adam (the first Man) through to David — and his genealogy from Abraham through David is identical to Matthew's. But then after David, Luke departs from the path taken by Matthew and traces the family tree through another son of David (the second surviving son of Bathsheba), Nathan, down through Heli, the father of Mary, the mother of Jesus.
Zelophehad
One should also note the exception to the law which permitted inheritance through the daughter if no sons were available and she married within her tribe.
The daughters of Zelophehad had petitioned Moses for a special exception, which was granted when they entered the land under Joshua.
I believe it was C.I. Scofield who first noted that the claims of Christ rely upon this peculiar exception granted to the family of Zelo-phehad in the Torah. Heli, Mary's father, apparently had no sons, and Mary married within the tribe of Judah. Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, of the house and lineage of David and carrying legal title to the line, but without the blood curse of Jeconiah.
Earlier Glimpse
This was no afterthought or post facto remedy, of course. It was first announced in the Garden of Eden when God declared war on Satan: ” I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”(Genesis 3:15)
The “Seed of the Woman” thus becomes one of the prophetic titles of the Messiah. This biological contradiction is the first hint — in the early chapters of Genesis — of the virgin birth.
http://www.khouse.org/articles/1998/73/Unfortunately it's unlikely that Towshab will allow himself to benefit from the information in this article, but I hope others do.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 03 2007,20:32) The Problem God announced very early that His plan for redemption involved the Messiah being brought forth from the tribe of Judah, and specifically from the line of David. The succession of subsequent kings proved to be, with only a few exceptions, a dismal chain. As the succeeding kings of Judah went from bad to worse, we eventually encounter Jeconiah (also known as Jehoiachin), upon whom God pronounces a ” blood curse” : “Thus saith the Lord, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.”(Jeremiah 22:30)
This curse created a rather grim and perplexing paradox: the Messiah had to come from the royal line, yet now there was a “blood curse” on that very line of descent! (I always visualize a celebration in the councils of Satan on that day. But then I imagine God turning to His angels, saying, “Watch this one!”)
The Solution
The answer emerges in the differing genealogies of Jesus Christ recorded in the gospels. Matthew, as a Levi, focuses his gospel on the Messiahship of Jesus and presents Him as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. Thus, Matthew traces the legal line from Abraham (as any Jew would) through David, then through Solomon (the . royal. line) to Joseph, the legal father of Jesus.
On the other hand, Luke, as a physician, focuses on the humanity of Jesus and presents Him as the Son of Man. Luke traces the blood line from Adam (the first Man) through to David — and his genealogy from Abraham through David is identical to Matthew's. But then after David, Luke departs from the path taken by Matthew and traces the family tree through another son of David (the second surviving son of Bathsheba), Nathan, down through Heli, the father of Mary, the mother of Jesus.
Zelophehad
One should also note the exception to the law which permitted inheritance through the daughter if no sons were available and she married within her tribe.
The daughters of Zelophehad had petitioned Moses for a special exception, which was granted when they entered the land under Joshua.
I believe it was C.I. Scofield who first noted that the claims of Christ rely upon this peculiar exception granted to the family of Zelo-phehad in the Torah. Heli, Mary's father, apparently had no sons, and Mary married within the tribe of Judah. Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, of the house and lineage of David and carrying legal title to the line, but without the blood curse of Jeconiah.
Earlier Glimpse
This was no afterthought or post facto remedy, of course. It was first announced in the Garden of Eden when God declared war on Satan: ” I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”(Genesis 3:15)
The “Seed of the Woman” thus becomes one of the prophetic titles of the Messiah. This biological contradiction is the first hint — in the early chapters of Genesis — of the virgin birth.
http://www.khouse.org/articles/1998/73/Unfortunately it's unlikely that Towshab will allow himself to benefit from the information in this article, but I hope others do.
It was interesting no doubt but there are still two issues: Mary's line was not through Solomon and there were still other bloodlines to go through to put a king on David's throne. The bloodline was not cursed through Jeconiah but merely those who were of the seed of Jeconiah could not sit on the throne. The last real king of Judah was Zedekiah son of Josiah. But all of his sons were killed. Still there were many ways to branch and still have a king from the line of Solomon.There are too many assumptions here as well. The first is that the Luke genealogy is through Mary. Both Luke and Matthew say the lineage they list ends in Joseph so why do Christians assume that Luke's is through Mary while Matthew's is through Joseph and not vice versa? There is no real reason. So this is assumption 1.
The next assumption is that if Heli is Mary's father and not Joseph's that she indeed had no brothers. There is no record of this so again this is pure speculation. This is a process of 'if this and this then this'. But again it is nullified by Mary being through the line of Nathan and not Solomon.
Finally, Gen 3:15 is NOT messianic. The seed of Eve is all of humanity. The serpent crawls on its belly and it can bite the heel of man. But man can step on the head of the serpent. Don't read too much into this straightforward verse.
You just knew I'd present an opposing view didn't you Is 1:18
.In the genealogy in Matthew 1, notice one name, Jechonias (Jeconiah), in verse 11. If Joseph had been Jesus' father according to the flesh, He could never have occupied the throne, for God's word barred the way. There had been a curse on this royal line since the days of Jeconiah. In Jeremiah 22:30 we read, Thus says the Lord: write this man down as childless, a man who shall not prosper in his days: for none of his descendants shall prosper, sitting on the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah. Joseph was in the line of this curse. Hence, if Jesus had been Joseph's son, He could not have sat on David's throne.
But we find another genealogy of Jesus in Luke 3. This is Mary's line, back to David, through Nathan, not Jeconiah (Luke 3:31). There was no curse on this line. Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you shall conceive in your womb, and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David: And he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of His kingdom there will be no end (Luke 1:30-33).
In Matthew 1:1-17 we have the royal genealogy of the son of David, through Joseph. In Luke 3:23-38 it is His strictly personal genealogy, through Mary. In Matthew it is His legal line of descent through Joseph; in Luke it is His lineal descent through Mary. In Matthew His genealogy is traced forward from Abraham; in Luke it followed backward to Adam, Each is significant! Matthew is showing Jesus' relation to the Jew, hence he goes back no further than to Abraham, father of the Jewish nation. But in Luke is His connection with the human race; hence His genealogy is traced back to Adam, the father of the human family.
In Luke, Jesus' line is traced back to Adam, and is, no doubt, His mother's line. Notice in Luke 3:23, it does not say Jesus was the son of Joseph. What are the words? As was supposed. In Matthew 1:16, where Joseph's genealogy is given, we find that Joseph was the son of Jacob. In Luke it say he was the son of Heli. He could not be the son of two men by natural generation. But notice this carefully – the record does not state that Heli begot Joseph, so it is supposed that Joseph was the son by law (or son-in-law) of Heli. Heli is believed to have been the father of Mary.
The Davadic genealogy goes through Nathan, not Solomon. This too is important. The Messiah must be David's son and heir (2 Sam. 7:12,13; Romans 1:3; Acts 2:30,31) and his seed according to the flesh. He must be a literal flesh and blood descendant. Hence Mary must be a member of David's house as well as Joseph (Luke 1:32).
http://www.direct.ca/trinity/duel.htmlQuote (t8 @ Nov. 03 2007,18:37) Hi Towshab. I know that you do not believe that Yeshua is the messiah, but this is what he said to the Pharisees.
John 8:42
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.According to him and anyone who follows the messiah, you cannot know God if you cannot recognize the one who came from him.
We also know that there is a history of rejection of the prophets too, not just the messiah.
Matthew 23:36-39
36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'I'll likely get back to this when I encounter it in Matthew but show me in the Jewish bible where prophets were killed by Jewish people. You are taking the word of the Christian bible without validating it against the Jewish bible. The fact is, the Hebrew people did not kill their prophets. This is a bold face lie by the writer of Matthew.
Quote Anyway, it appears from Yeshua's words that you are arguing the Pharisees point of view. They too (or many of them) rejected Yeshua as the messiah. And after Yeshua was rejected, the history of the Jewish people took a turn for the worse as Yeshua said it would. Nah it was already predicted in Daniel. Jesus was no prophet. Nothing he has predicted has come true yet.
Quote The Pharisees went down in history as men who followed the Law, but neglected the spirit of the law. What history? The history of the Christian bible? Excuse me if I think this history is skewed against the Jewish people.
Quote So they tithed etc, but they didn't know the meaning of compassion and other qualities that God expects from us. But at least I think we can both agree that to reject God's messiah, is to reject God.
Yes but you assume it is Jesus. Since Jewish scripture does not validate his claim the world is still expecting an end times Moshiach.
Quote So it boils down to 3 possibilities logically speaking. - Yehsua is the messiah and you are wrong.
- You are right and Yeshua is not the messiah.
- Both of you are wrong.
Huh?!? Its 'either-or' not both. If Jesus is not the messiah then he is not. If he is, he is. No third choice.
Quote The problem that you have however is that you may be able to argue against Yeshua being the messiah, but you cannot argue against his words. Why not? I'm afraid I'm not getting you here. Did you have that 'far off' look in your eye as you typed this?
Quote Also, from my point of view and millions of others, you cannot argue against our testimony. God has done things in my life and spoken to me in a way that makes me know God intimately. Others will tell you the same thing Millions follow Mohammed and Allah. Numbers are a flawed measure of validity. Many Muslims can report similar experiences as your own. Who is right your or them?
Quote When I believed that Yeshua was the messiah of YHWH, God worked in my life profoundly. This is something that you will find very difficult, or even impossible to change or even believe. i.e., a persons experience of God through the messiah. I don't deny 'experiences'. Yet so many other religions have their adherents that will report similar 'experiences'. What then makes Christianity any better?
Quote You reject the messiah. But that is nothing new. Many also rejected the prophets that came before him too. Yeshua said the following: Romans 10:19
But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, “I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU.”Deuteronomy 32:21
They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation,So here we are 2000 or so years later. And God has worked through the Gentiles of which I am one.
The Jewish God loves Gentiles too because he created man in his image (Jew and Gentile) and he works through us because he loves us and to also provoke you to jealousy, in the hope that you will turn to God by accepting his messiah and the prophets of whom your people rejected all those years ago.
Actually people see this wrong. I started out in Christianity and turned to the YHVH I knew in the Tanakh. Therefore I see Christianity as a valuable religion because some people will take the time to actually study their 'old testament' and realize the same thing I did. In that many will turn to YHVH because all of the evidence against Jesus can be found in the Jewish bible. Even Jesus said the Tanakh testified of him. Christians want to think that this means it points him out as the end times Moshiach but Jesus was just showing that the Tanakh pointed him out as a good teacher and nothing more.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 03 2007,22:42) In the genealogy in Matthew 1, notice one name, Jechonias (Jeconiah), in verse 11. If Joseph had been Jesus' father according to the flesh, He could never have occupied the throne, for God's word barred the way. There had been a curse on this royal line since the days of Jeconiah. In Jeremiah 22:30 we read, Thus says the Lord: write this man down as childless, a man who shall not prosper in his days: for none of his descendants shall prosper, sitting on the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah. Joseph was in the line of this curse. Hence, if Jesus had been Joseph's son, He could not have sat on David's throne. But we find another genealogy of Jesus in Luke 3. This is Mary's line, back to David, through Nathan, not Jeconiah (Luke 3:31). There was no curse on this line.
Wrong. Luke's genealogy is a big mess because it cannot be verified but note two people:
===================================
Luk 3:27 (HNV) the son of Yochanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri,Mat 1:12 After the exile to Babylon, Jechoniah became the father of Shealtiel. Shealtiel became the father of Zerubbabel.
===================================How many Shealtiel-Zerubbabel father-son teams are there? Matthew at least had a verifiable lineage while Luke's is chock full of strange names throughout. That is fine because there can obviously be lineages not listed in the Jewish scriptures (as long as they pass through david and Solomon) but all of a sudden Shealtiel and Zerubbabel show up as father and son!
And who is Shealtiel's father?
===================================
1Ch 3:17 The sons of Jeconiah, the captive: Shealtiel his son,
===================================Therefore Luke brings the cursed bloodline into his genealogy!
Quote Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you shall conceive in your womb, and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David: And he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of His kingdom there will be no end (Luke 1:30-33). In Matthew 1:1-17 we have the royal genealogy of the son of David, through Joseph. In Luke 3:23-38 it is His strictly personal genealogy, through Mary. In Matthew it is His legal line of descent through Joseph;
It can't be his 'legal' bloodline because adoption does not allow one to sit on the throne of David. Even so he has no right through Joseph because he is in the cursed bloodline of Jeconiah.
Quote in Luke it is His lineal descent through Mary. Speculation because Luke does not say that. In fact mary is not mentioned at all in Luke 3. At face value what you have are two authors, Matthew a supposed Jew and Luke the Gentile. If we assume (you have to assume too much with the Christian bible!) that Matthew was written by the apostle of the same name then he likely did not know Luke because Luke was a gentile and never an apostle. So it is more likely that Luke, since he was writing to Gentiles, was not particularly careful in listing a lineage because all that would matter to gentiles is that Jesus was the a son of David. Since Luke knew little of scripture he may not have known that the bloodline must also pass through Solomon so he starts with Nathan instead.
Quote In Matthew His genealogy is traced forward from Abraham; in Luke it followed backward to Adam, Each is significant! Matthew is showing Jesus' relation to the Jew, hence he goes back no further than to Abraham, father of the Jewish nation. But in Luke is His connection with the human race; hence His genealogy is traced back to Adam, the father of the human family. In Luke, Jesus' line is traced back to Adam, and is, no doubt, His mother's line.
No doubt? Seems there is much doubt because Luke says the lineage is through Joseph not Mary. You are still assuming to make things fit.
Luke made a mistake in his genealogy from Adam to Abraham. He includes Kenan twice and has him as the son of Arpachshad in Luke 3:36. According to the Jewish bible Arpachshad is the father of Shelah. So remove Kenan from Luke 3:36. No big deal but this just shows Luke was not too careful. He was a gentile writing to gentiles so understandable.
Quote Notice in Luke 3:23, it does not say Jesus was the son of Joseph. What are the words? As was supposed. 'As was supposed' is quite evident. Because Jesus was not his biological son and I'm fairly certain they did not go around telling people that Mary was a pregnant virgin, everyone 'supposed' that Jesus was the real son of Joseph. You are reading an assumption in when the phrasing is quite clear.
===================================
Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?
Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. {note here that John does not even acknowledge the virgin birth in his gospel}
Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
===================================So Jesus was the son of Joseph 'as supposed'.
Quote In Matthew 1:16, where Joseph's genealogy is given, we find that Joseph was the son of Jacob. In Luke it say he was the son of Heli. He could not be the son of two men by natural generation. But notice this carefully – the record does not state that Heli begot Joseph, so it is supposed that Joseph was the son by law (or son-in-law) of Heli. Heli is believed to have been the father of Mary. Heli is assumed to be the father of Mary because it is one way to make up for Luke and Matthew giving conflicting genealogies. Luke doesn't use 'beget' in any of his listed genealogy so to say that he didn't use 'beget' of Joseph is a very weak argument.
Quote The Davadic genealogy goes thr
ough Nathan, not Solomon. This too is important. The Messiah must be David's son and heir (2 Sam. 7:12,13; Romans 1:3; Acts 2:30,31) and his seed according to the flesh. He must be a literal flesh and blood descendant. Hence Mary must be a member of David's house as well as Joseph (Luke 1:32).
http://www.direct.ca/trinity/duel.html
Solomon not Nathan. The bloodline must go through Solomon and Joseph's is invalidated because he is not the father of Jesus by blood. Since Mary's genealogy is through Nathan Jesus cannot sit on the throne of David.I confess, this thread is stressing me out. Some may say, “Well, don't read it then!” but it goes a bit beyond that. Truth seekers do not stop seeking simply because issues or topics get tough to understand or reconcile with ones own current belief system.
What I am wanting to know is – what prophecy did Jesus not fulfill? In addition to the geneology problems, why do the Jews not believe Jesus to be the promised Messiah? And you realize that there is a major conflict of interest here. If the Jews are still looking for the Messiah, then they can go into the dessert when someon says, “Hey look! there is the Messiah!” but as a Christian, we are warned against going out and looking for the Messiah because he will appear in the clouds. Who is right? Both follow God. One will be going to look, while the other stays and waits. Good grief.
Mandy I read some of Tow's post too, but half way through I usually stop, realizing that He does not belief in the rest of the Bible. And He cant prove to me, that He is right, that the rest did not existed. Just because some of the lineage of the genealogy is not exactly lined up, does not mean it never existed. Humans recorded it, and Humans make mistakes. But the main truths do line up, the important truths. You have to remember that the accounts of each Book was on the memory of the writer. Could be some remember, and some do not. But if you look what is beef is, it is mostly real minor things. He denies Christ, because He and some other Jews do not want to admit that they are responsible for Jesus death. Just like some Germans now are saying, that the Holocaust never happened.
I stopped reading most of Tow's Post.
You know that is not new, that the Jew's do not belief that Jesus never came and are still waiting for His coming. So what is His beef here? Is it not to cause us anguish, we most not let that happen, Mandy. Best is not to read or answer Him at all, which I said before, but nobody wants to do that ,it seems. He would be long gone if everybody would stop answering this Guy. He Post all over the place now, because He knows He has an Audience. Oh well let's see how this turns out. You and I should stay away from Him, tho. Just my advice. It is all up to you.
No matter what God loves you and so do I.
Love IreneQuote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 04 2007,22:20) I confess, this thread is stressing me out. Some may say, “Well, don't read it then!” but it goes a bit beyond that. Truth seekers do not stop seeking simply because issues or topics get tough to understand or reconcile with ones own current belief system. What I am wanting to know is – what prophecy did Jesus not fulfill? In addition to the geneology problems, why do the Jews not believe Jesus to be the promised Messiah? And you realize that there is a major conflict of interest here. If the Jews are still looking for the Messiah, then they can go into the dessert when someon says, “Hey look! there is the Messiah!” but as a Christian, we are warned against going out and looking for the Messiah because he will appear in the clouds. Who is right? Both follow God. One will be going to look, while the other stays and waits. Good grief.
Do not look for the Moshiach in any way. Seek G-d and serve him. Do not worship Jesus. You can be a Christian and not worship him as G-d. That is the reason Christianity is dangerous because most worship Jesus as they should G-d. That is idolatry. I've also seen that like Gene that you appear to be a unitarian. Most unitarians are respected among the Jews because (1) they don't believe Jesus is G-d (2) they typically do not try to convert the Jews like most Evangelicals and (3) like the Jews they too have been persecuted and killed by mainline Christians since the religion started in the first century.Most Christians would consider you to be a heretic and a cultist. That is the fruit of mainline Christianity. From your bible
============================
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
============================The fruit of Christianity has been the death and persecution of Jews and other Christians who don't believe a certain way. Christianity has 'eaten its own' many times in the past. So as a whole Christianity has been a corrupt tree.
Yes I know that Christian organizations have done many good things. I do not say that all of what Christianity does is bad because that would be a lie. Most of the Christians I know are very good people. But again I will take from your own bible
1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
The leaven of evil men like Calvin and Luther and many others like them have infected all of Christianity. The past of Christianity has much blood on its hands. People will say 'that was them' but they got their influence from the Christian bible. Whether you want to believe it or not, many experts will tell you that Nazi Germany was the result of Christian influence. All one had to do is look at Matthew and John and they would know the enemy among them.
Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
That is perhaps the most anti-semitic verse in all of the Christian bible. And Matthew was supposed to have been written to convert Jewish people?!? If Matthew was a Jew he was a self-loathing one. Any real Jew would have never written such!
I would suggest that you please try your best to NOT read my threads. What I write will rock many people's faith. But G-d alone longs for your worship.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 05 2007,02:51) He denies Christ, because He and some other Jews do not want to admit that they are responsible for Jesus death.
I am not a Jew. I am a G-d fearing Gentile. I may convert to Judaism one day but if I do there is not turning back. Rabbis and other Jews do not try to convert you like Christians do. Instead they will try to turn you away from Judaism. Why? Because Judaism is a true life commitment! Its not a simple 'I believe' thing.But this statement is so typical of Christianity. You want to blame the whole of Jewish people for killing your 'savior' when you should be thanking them. If it were not for those 'filthy Jews' you would still be a Gentile not knowing anything about the G-d of all flesh. The Jews did not kill Jesus.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
According to your bible G-d is the one who had Jesus killed. Joh 19:11 says that the one who delivered Jesus unto Pilate had the greater sin and Joh 3:16 says G-d delivered (gave) him. Therefore your own bible accuses G-d of sin. It is quite obvious by your bible that the Jews and Romans were merely in the wrong place at the wrong time because Jesus was going to die one way or the other. Yet because of it G-d's chosen people have faced hundreds of years of persecution and death for 'killing' your savior.
That is one of many reasons I reject Christianity. G-d would not sacrifice a human and G-d does not sin!
I am sorry but the gospels had a clear purpose: to make the children of Israel into the 'children of satan'.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.For me this says it all! Tow and Stu are strangers that transgress and do not accept Jesus THE Christ. Your Spiritual house is YOU! Or what do believers have in common with non-believers?
OH! I understand we are truth seekers. BUT what truth do these people have? Neither believe in God! One denies Christ and one who denies Christ denies the Father! The other denies GOD altogether. So why should we give an ear to these people? Do we have doubt that Jesus is the Christ. If we have the Spirit of God how could we deny His Son.
These people are blinded by the god of this world, 2Cor. 4:4.
Do you think we would change their minds? And if we did what good would it do unless they repent with their heart. Are we smarter than Satan? I implore you to heed the above scriptures and no longer reply to their posts.
1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?There is always a choice isn't there?
God bless,
Ken
Hi Towshab:
You say:
Quote According to your bible G-d is the one who had Jesus killed. Joh 19:11 says that the one who delivered Jesus unto Pilate had the greater sin and Joh 3:16 says G-d delivered (gave) him. Therefore your own bible accuses G-d of sin. It is quite obvious by your bible that the Jews and Romans were merely in the wrong place at the wrong time because Jesus was going to die one way or the other. Yet because of it G-d's chosen people have faced hundreds of years of persecution and death for 'killing' your savior. I believe that this is a misunderstanding on your part. God did not kill his Son, but he allowed him to go through what he went through so that even the most wicked person on earth could be reconciled to God through his sacrifice if he chooses to do so. The judgment that was against mankind for the first death (spiritual separation from God because of sin) has been paid in full. Those who have not been reconciled to God through him will go through a second death which will be eternal separation from God. This judgment the dead will have to bear for themselves.
There were actually some who took part in crucifying him who were saved after his resurrection.
Quote Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me F4 freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Quote .1 John 5: 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
You accuse Christians of trusting in man rather that God for our salvation, and yet you and Jews who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah are waiting for a Messiah in whom you will put your trust to restore the kingdom to the Nation of Israel and to rebuild the temple and to re-institute animal sacrifice.
And yes, you will indeed get your Messiah for he will be a false Messiah and the temple will be rebuilt and animal sacrifices will be re-instituted, but maybe the following scripture will help you understand:
Quote יִתְבָּרְרוּ וְיִתְלַבְּנוּ וְיִצָּרְפוּ, רַבִּים, וְהִרְשִׁיעוּ רְשָׁעִים, וְלֹא יָבִינוּ כָּל-רְשָׁעִים; וְהַמַּשְׂכִּלִים, יָבִינוּ. 10 Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but they that are wise shall understand.
יא וּמֵעֵת הוּסַר הַתָּמִיד, וְלָתֵת שִׁקּוּץ שֹׁמֵם–יָמִים, אֶלֶף מָאתַיִם וְתִשְׁעִים. 11 And from the time that the continual burnt-offerin
g shall be taken away, and the detestable thing that causes appalment set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
יב אַשְׁרֵי הַמְחַכֶּה, וְיַגִּיעַ: לְיָמִים–אֶלֶף, שְׁלֹשׁ מֵאוֹת שְׁלֹשִׁים וַחֲמִשָּׁה. 12 Happy is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.God Bless
Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 05 2007,13:00) What prophecy did Jesus not fulfill?
The list would be shorter if people would list the ones he did fulfill. Two people on here threw out some lists they picked up from some web site and every one of the 'prophecies' were not that at all and they were taken out of context.Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 06 2007,11:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 05 2007,13:00) What prophecy did Jesus not fulfill?
The list would be shorter if people would list the ones he did fulfill. Two people on here threw out some lists they picked up from some web site and every one of the 'prophecies' were not that at all and they were taken out of context.
Hi Towshab:I have the testimony dwelling with me that he fulfilled this one:
Quote 18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. Quote (942767 @ Nov. 05 2007,16:18) Hi Towshab: You say:
Quote According to your bible G-d is the one who had Jesus killed. Joh 19:11 says that the one who delivered Jesus unto Pilate had the greater sin and Joh 3:16 says G-d delivered (gave) him. Therefore your own bible accuses G-d of sin. It is quite obvious by your bible that the Jews and Romans were merely in the wrong place at the wrong time because Jesus was going to die one way or the other. Yet because of it G-d's chosen people have faced hundreds of years of persecution and death for 'killing' your savior. I believe that this is a misunderstanding on your part. God did not kill his Son, but he allowed him to go through what he went through so that even the most wicked person on earth could be reconciled to God through his sacrifice if he chooses to do so. The judgment that was against mankind for the first death (spiritual separation from God because of sin) has been paid in full. Those who have not been reconciled to God through him will go through a second death which will be eternal separation from God. This judgment the dead will have to bear for themselves.
Yes you are right
. Even in Job G-d allowed Job to be tried but He did not do it Himself. Yet I want people to understand that regardless of who was involved was it not G-d's will according to your faith that Jesus was to die? Then in the end the result is the same. John 3:16 still applies.Christians are way off on Adam and Eve too. That is part of the whole Christian dogma. You have this idea that since Adam transgressed that mankind has been infected with the sin disease when there is no basis for this.
I would like for you to explain to me (1) Why G-d would create such a flawed creature as man when He knew he was going to sin (2) why did G-d wait thousands of years to provide a correction for this knowing that millions and millions would go without a form of redemption since Jesus did not come for 4000 years (3) why G-d would come up with the Torah and make it so burdensome that the children of Israel were certain to no be able to keep it so he made a new covenant that relaxes these rules and makes Jesus the sacrifice. In the meantime he allowed the Israelites to remain under this same burdensome covenant for 1400 years. I'm just smiling as I think of the answer people can come up with these.
Quote There were actually some who took part in crucifying him who were saved after his resurrection. Quote Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me F4 freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
That was a stretch. You assume that some people that were involved in Jesus crucifixion were there? Not likely. Peter is addressing the house of Israel in Acts 2:36 and thereby is blaming all of Israel for Jesus' death. Yet another anti-semitic verse. After all were know it was the Israelites who killed Jesus right?
Quote Quote .1 John 5: 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
You accuse Christians of trusting in man rather that God for our salvation, and yet you and Jews who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah are waiting for a Messiah in whom you will put your trust to restore the kingdom to the Nation of Israel and to rebuild the temple and to re-institute animal sacrifice.
Is it not in the Tanakh? Then are you stating G-d is a liar and your 'old testament' is false? That is a bold statement. I guess you believe that since Jesus is the Messiah that all of the messianic prophecies are now null and void?
Quote And yes, you will indeed get your Messiah for he will be a false Messiah and the temple will be rebuilt and animal sacrifices will be re-instituted, but maybe the following scripture will help you understand: Quote יִתְבָּרְרוּ וְיִתְלַבְּנוּ וְיִצָּרְפוּ, רַבִּים, וְהִרְשִׁיעוּ רְשָׁעִים, וְלֹא יָבִינוּ כָּל-רְשָׁעִים; וְהַמַּשְׂכִּלִים, יָבִינוּ. 10 Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but they that are wise shall understand.
יא וּמֵעֵת הוּסַר הַתָּמִיד, וְלָתֵת שִׁקּוּץ שֹׁמֵם–יָמִים, אֶלֶף מָאתַיִם וְתִשְׁעִים. 11 And from the time that the continual burnt-offering shall be taken away, and the detestable thing that causes appalment set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
יב אַשְׁרֵי הַמְחַכֶּה, וְיַגִּיעַ: לְיָמִים–אֶלֶף, שְׁלֹשׁ מֵאוֹת שְׁלֹשִׁים וַחֲמִשָּׁה. 12 Happy is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.God Bless
This says nothing of a false messiah. Are you saying that the third temple spoken of in Ezekiel 40-48 is about a false messianic age? Ewww, take it up with G-d. You're crossing some lines I don't even want to touch.
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