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No that is why you were told you would have the Holy Spirit so you’d believe you had the truth. The past 2000 years have shown the fruit of the Christian Holy Spirit.****Their is your problem. When I received the Holy Spirit I did not even know what was happening to me. I couldn't tell you what the gospels were! I was raise Catholic and Catholics don't like you reading the bible.
I'm SURE I'm not the only one with this experience. SO you couldn't be MORE WRONG! SAD! very SAD! But this is the end time and I'm sure worse is still to come.
You're 'spiritual' experience is repeated by those who follow Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Mormonism, and any other number of religions. What makes your 'spiritual experience' any more valid than theirs? Because you say so? Yet you say all of those people (and the Jewish people too) will burn in hell for not placing their trust in a mythological god-man. You practice the same exclusivism that your mother the Catholic church does.
How would you know? Have you received the Holy Spirit?
No you have NOT so you don't know what you are talking about. When it comes to “spiritual” things do you really “know”? Aren't you guessing?
You and Stu should get together and talk because neither of you know anything about spiritual things. You guys are pretty much on the same page.
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 03 2007,08:36) Quote Stu is trying to prove that the resurrection story is full of holes? Good for him. I'm sure you two agree on a lot of things
Seems you edited your last post. Perhaps we do agree on some things. We both agree that the Christian bible is full of mythologies. If this was supposed to be an insult it failed.
Quote Quote Wow the words of the apostate Paul will sway me every time! He was nothing but a hired temple guard who despised his Jewish heritage. Why would I place stock in his message? He never once claimed “And the word of YHVH came to me”. All of his own words. Again you follow a man while I seek to follow the creator, YHVH G-d. None of this is written for YOU!
You are right. It was written to people who want to believe that G-d would go against His own Torah.
Quote Quote The ‘god of this world’ is YHVH. If you read your ‘old testament’ you’d know that. But you need to believe in the boogie man in the red suit so you will stay in line and not stray. Besides when did YHVH hand over the world to 'satan', since the time between the Tanakh was written and the 1st century AD? He certainly didn't give it to him while the various Jewish prophets heard from G-d. See here is the thing because you have no spirit you as the scripture says can't think spirit. Is the God the creator of the “system of things”? We fight against the powers of the air. You don't know they exist!
Oh NO not the 'you don't have the spirit' line of reasoning again. You christians toss this around amongst one another just as much as you do non-christians. Its code for 'you don't believe as I do so you are wrong and I am right'. So much for the spirit making all Christians 'one'.
Quote Quote No I cannot but then no one has ever seen G-d. Jesus was supposed to have walked this earth, fed multitudes of people, healed people, and performed many miracles. One would think that such a person would attract someone’s attention but not a peep outside of the Christian bible. So in order to believe that Jesus came from the tomb you must believe he in fact ever was placed in a tomb. Since we only have the Christian bible which is full of errors and contradictions all such ‘proof’ is highly suspect. Well since we only have the Old Testament that says the world was created in six days and man was created from mud and woman from mans rib. Does that make it true! You are SO hip on proving everything PROVE that to be true outside the bible.
You still don't understand. What we have is the Christian bible based on the Jewish bible. If the Christian bible does not agree with the Jewish bible than either one must be invalidated. Are you willing to invalidate the Jewish bible? If so then your bible really becomes a set of useless words because you have destroyed its foundation.
If Jesus had truly fulfilled the messianic prophecies and the rest of the Christian bible had not gone against G-d's Torah none of this would be an issue. But it does.
Quote Truth is you are lacking in faith to believe the Whole plan. You get the first part but when it comes to part TWO you reject it because you can't “PROVE IT”. Well again you can't PROVE that their is a God other than the Old Testament.
If you can't prove that then why should anyone believe in your “proof theory”.
Show me 'part two' in the Jewish bible. 'Part two' is yet to come. No one on here has been able to provide any substantial scripture from the Jewish bible to show that Jesus could have been the end times Moshiach.And by constantly questioning the reality of G-d to compare to the reality of Jesus you are just digging a deeper hole for yourself. G-d is not of this world. G-d cannot be contained in this world.
1Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
Yet Jesus was a man and walked the earth so people DID SEE HIM according to your bible. So the things he did, the thousands that heard him, the things that happened at his death (darkness for 3 hours, earthquake, zombies walking around) should have caught at least one other person's attention. Not a peep.
Quote We believe in Jesus. You don't because their is no proof. If we go by proof and not faith then their is no Creator!
I don't believe in Jesus because he did not fulfill any of the prophecies of the end times Moschiach. He did not even have the proper lineage to sit on the throne of David. He was never anointed as a king or priest. He went against G-d's Torah by telling people they had to drink his blood to have life. He broke the commandment to honor mother and father (is that why he did not have a long life?). He did not partake of the Passover properly because he ate leavened bread. During his ministry he spoke poorly of Gentiles who sought his assistance which violated G-d's Torah. He constantly degraded his fellow Jews which is another violation of Torah. He added the stipulation of lust to adultery which is against the Torah because you are not to add to Torah.This is but a few of the reasons that Jesus could not have been who you say he is.
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 03 2007,09:46) Quote Quote
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No that is why you were told you would have the Holy Spirit so you’d believe you had the truth. The past 2000 years have shown the fruit of the Christian Holy Spirit.****Their is your problem. When I received the Holy Spirit I did not even know what was happening to me. I couldn't tell you what the gospels were! I was raise Catholic and Catholics don't like you reading the bible.
I'm SURE I'm not the only one with this experience. SO you couldn't be MORE WRONG! SAD! very SAD! But this is the end time and I'm sure worse is still to come.
You're 'spiritual' experience is repeated by those who follow Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Mormonism, and any other number of religions. What makes your 'spiritual experience' any more valid than theirs? Because you say so? Yet you say all of those people (and the Jewish people too) will burn in hell for not placing their trust in a mythological god-man. You practice the same exclusivism that your mother the Catholic church does.
How would you know? Have you received the Holy Spirit?
No you have NOT so you don't know what you are talking about. When it comes to “spiritual” things do you really “know”? Aren't you guessing?
You and Stu should get together and talk because neither of you know anything about spiritual things. You guys are pretty much on the same page.
The Christian spirit: you need it to believe in a lie.Towshab and you are Antichrist because scripture tells me, that the person that does not belief that Jesus came in the flesh is Anti-Christ. So there you are. Goodbye. No more arguments with you. No more replies. Brothers and Sisters you need to stop and answer this Guy.
Mrs.
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 04 2007,01:52) Quote I'm sure you two agree on a lot of things Seems you edited your last post. Perhaps we do agree on some things. We both agree that the Christian bible is full of mythologies. If this was supposed to be an insult it failed.[/QUOTE]
No not an insult just an observation.
Quote None of this is written for YOU! You are right. It was written to people who want to believe that G-d would go against His own Torah.[/QUOTE]
It was written to those who know God and not just a book.
Quote Quote Quote The ‘god of this world’ is YHVH. If you read your ‘old testament’ you’d know that. But you need to believe in the boogie man in the red suit so you will stay in line and not stray. Besides when did YHVH hand over the world to 'satan', since the time between the Tanakh was written and the 1st century AD? He certainly didn't give it to him while the various Jewish prophets heard from G-d. See here is the thing because you have no spirit you as the scripture says can't think spirit. Is the God the creator of the “system of things”? We fight against the powers of the air. You don't know they exist!
Oh NO not the 'you don't have the spirit' line of reasoning again. You christians toss this around amongst one another just as much as you do non-christians. Its code for 'you don't believe as I do so you are wrong and I am right'. So much for the spirit making all Christians 'one'.
You keep forgetting to factor in the Human part of the whole matter. The Old Testament doesn't have mistakes because their is nothing to compare it too. So how would you know if it had “HUMAN” errors or NOT. If it does have human errors does that mean that their is no GOD? I suppose to you it would.
Quote Quote Quote No I cannot but then no one has ever seen G-d. Jesus was supposed to have walked this earth, fed multitudes of people, healed people, and performed many miracles. One would think that such a person would attract someone’s attention but not a peep outside of the Christian bible. So in order to believe that Jesus came from the tomb you must believe he in fact ever was placed in a tomb. Since we only have the Christian bible which is full of errors and contradictions all such ‘proof’ is highly suspect. Well since we only have the Old Testament that says the world was created in six days and man was created from mud and woman from mans rib. Does that make it true! You are SO hip on proving everything PROVE that to be true outside the bible.
You still don't understand. What we have is the Christian bible based on the Jewish bible. If the Christian bible does not agree with the Jewish bible than either one must be invalidated. Are you willing to invalidate the Jewish bible? If so then your bible really becomes a set of useless words because you have destroyed its foundation.
If Jesus had truly fulfilled the messianic prophecies and the rest of the Christian bible had not gone against G-d's Torah none of this would be an issue. But it does.
I understand. If the Old testament had a book preceding it would the Old Testament have Human errors, or the book before it? But the message would be the same wouldn't it.
The Old testament testifies of a lamb of God. The New Testament testifies that the Lamb of God came and was sacrificed. Otherwise you would still be sacrificing animals.Quote Quote Truth is you are lacking in faith to believe the Whole plan. You get the first part but when it comes to part TWO you reject it because you can't “PROVE IT”. Well again you can't PROVE that their is a God other than the Old Testament.
If you can't prove that then why should anyone believe in your “proof theory”.
Show me 'part two' in the Jewish bible. 'Part two' is yet to come. No one on here has been able to provide any substantial scripture from the Jewish bible to show that Jesus could have been the end times Moshiach.And by constantly questioning the reality of G-d to compare to the reality of Jesus you are just digging a deeper hole for yourself. G-d is not of this world. G-d cannot be contained in this world.
1Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
Yet Jesus was a man and walked the earth so people DID SEE HIM according to your bible. So the things he did, the thousands that heard him, the things that happened at his death (darkness for 3 hours, earthquake, zombies walking around) should have caught at least one other person's attention. Not a peep.
Who said Jesus IS GOD? NOT me! Jesus IS who HE said He is the SON of God. The lamb of God not God Himself. Were you ever a “Christian”?
I'm not questioning the reality of God. I “KNOW” God. He is my Father which was this whole plan to begin with OR don't you know that.
I'm questioning why you don't believe. You don't believe because of human errors. Again If the Old testament had human errors would you believe in YOUR G_D. By your assumption of the New testament I would have to say you would NOT!Quote Quote We believe in Jesus. You don't because their is no proof. If we go by proof and not faith then their is no Creator!
I don't believe in Jesus because he did not fulfill any of the prophecies of the end times Moschiach. He did not even have the proper lineage to sit on the throne of David. He was never anointed as a king or priest. He went against G-d's Torah by telling people they had to drink his blood to have life. He broke the commandment to honor mother and father (is that why he did not have a long life?). He did not partake of the Passover properly because he ate leavened bread. During his ministry he spoke poorly of Gentiles who sought his assistance which violated G-d's Torah. He constantly degraded his fellow Jews which is another violation of Torah. He added the stipulation of lust to adultery which is against the Torah because you are not to add to Torah.This is but a few of the reasons that Jesus could not have been who you say he is.
You are confused with addition and completion. Abraham showed that the human race was worthy of a sacrifice by obeying God to the point of sacrificing his own son. Because of this God gave His only Son to pay for our sins which is why “you don't sacrifice animals”. Does not God own the whole earth. Do animals have to be sacrificed on a certain piece of property? What happens in between now and the “new temple”?
What good are keeping the feasts without the sacrifice of animals? Feasts without an offering? Isn't that breaking the word of God under the OLD COVENANT?
Quote He he, know the feeling with the finances. My wife wants us to buy one of those toy dogs. Which is fine, except they cost the thick end of $1000. Hmmmm. It won't even guard the house or protect the kids. I suggest a labra doodle…..if you want the other kids to beat you up.
Quote Not a contradiction. Try again. –Is 1:18
This really won't work Is 1:18. I don't know if you've been following this thread, but I've spent pages trying explain what are and what aren't contradictions.
If one account lists several people and another account only lists certain ones (leaving out some of the details) Towshab argues that this is a contradiction.
Quote I suggest a labra doodle…..if you want the other kids to beat you up. I've got one of those! But to TOW that isn't a dog! BIBLE LISTS OF JESUS’ GENEALOGY
Genesis 1 Chronicles Matthew Luke
and Ruth Chaps 1, 2, 3 Chap 1 Chap 3
Adam Adam Adam
Seth Seth Seth
Enosh Enosh Enosh
Kenan Kenan Cainan
Mahalalel Mahalalel Mahalaleel
Jared Jared Jared
Enoch Enoch Enoch
Methuselah Methuselah Methuselah
Lamech Lamech Lamech
Noah Noah Noah
Shem Shem Shem
Arpachshad Arpachshad Arpachshad
Cainan
Shelah Shelah Shelah
Eber Eber Eber
Peleg Peleg Peleg
Reu Reu Reu
Serug Serug Serug
Nahor Nahor Nahor
Terah Terah Terah
Abram (Abraham) Abraham Abraham Abraham
Isaac Isaac Isaac Isaac
Jacob (Israel) Jacob Jacob Jacob
Judah (and Tamar)Judah (and Tamar)Judah Judah
Perez Perez Perez Perez
Hezron Hezron Hezron Hezron
Ram Ram Ram Arni(Ram?)
Amminadab Amminadab AmminadabAmminadab
Nahshon Nahshon Nahshon Nahshon
Salmon Salmon(Salma, 1Ch2:11) Salmon(andRahab) Salmon
Boaz (and Ruth)Boaz Boaz (and Ruth) Boaz
ObedObedObedObed
JesseJesseJesseJesse
DavidDavidDavid(and Bath-sheba)David
SolomonSolomon Nathan 1
Rehoboam Rehoboam Mattatha
Abijah Abijah Menna
Asa Asa Melea
Jehoshaphat Jehoshaphat Eliakim
Jehoram Jehoram Jonam
Ahaziah Joseph
JehoashJudas
AmaziahSymeon
Levi
Azariah (Uzziah) Uzziah(Azariah) Matthat
Jotham Jotham Jorim
Ahaz Ahaz Eliezer
Hezekiah Hezekiah Jesus
Manasseh Manasseh Er
Amon Amon Elmadam
Josiah Josiah Cosam
JehoiakimAddi
Jeconiah(Jehoiachin) JeconiahNeri
Shealtiel (Pedaiah) 2 Shealtiel Shealtiel 3
Zerubbabel 4 Zerubbabel Zerubbabel
Rhesa
Abiud Joanan
Joda
Eliakim Josech
Semein
Azor Mattathias
Maath
Zadok Naggai
Esli
Achim Nahum
Amos
Eliud Mattathias
Joseph
Eleazar Jannai
Melchi
Matthan Levi
Matthat
Jacob Heli(fatherofMary)
Joseph Joseph(Heli’sson-in-law)
Jesus (foster son) Jesus (Mary’s son)1 At Nathan, Luke begins reckoning the genealogy through Jesus’ maternal line, while Matthew continues with the paternal line.
2 Zerubbabel evidently was the natural son of Pedaiah and the legal son of Shealtiel by brother-in-law marriage; or he was brought up by Shealtiel after his father Pedaiah’s death and became legally recognized as the son of Shealtiel.—1Ch 3:17-19; Ezr 3:2; Lu 3:27.
3 Shealtiel the son of Jeconiah possibly was the son-in-law of Neri.—1Ch 3:17; Lu 3:27.
4 The lines meet in Shealtiel and Zerubbabel, afterward diverging. This divergence could have been through two different descendants of Zerubbabel, or Rhesa or Abiud could have been a son-in-law.((Sorry it's not lined up perfectly.))
Quote (david @ Nov. 03 2007,12:19) BIBLE LISTS OF JESUS’ GENEALOGY
Genesis 1 Chronicles Matthew Luke
and Ruth Chaps 1, 2, 3 Chap 1 Chap 3
Adam Adam Adam
Seth Seth Seth
Enosh Enosh Enosh
Kenan Kenan Cainan
Mahalalel Mahalalel Mahalaleel
Jared Jared Jared
Enoch Enoch Enoch
Methuselah Methuselah Methuselah
Lamech Lamech Lamech
Noah Noah Noah
Shem Shem Shem
Arpachshad Arpachshad Arpachshad
Cainan
Shelah Shelah Shelah
Eber Eber Eber
Peleg Peleg Peleg
Reu Reu Reu
Serug Serug Serug
Nahor Nahor Nahor
Terah Terah Terah
Abram (Abraham) Abraham Abraham Abraham
Isaac Isaac Isaac Isaac
Jacob (Israel) Jacob Jacob Jacob
Judah (and Tamar)Judah (and Tamar)Judah Judah
Perez Perez Perez Perez
Hezron Hezron Hezron Hezron
Ram Ram Ram Arni(Ram?)
Amminadab Amminadab AmminadabAmminadab
Nahshon Nahshon Nahshon Nahshon
Salmon Salmon(Salma, 1Ch2:11) Salmon(andRahab) Salmon
Boaz (and Ruth)Boaz Boaz (and Ruth) Boaz
ObedObedObedObed
JesseJesseJesseJesse
DavidDavidDavid(and Bath-sheba)David
SolomonSolomon Nathan 1
Rehoboam Rehoboam Mattatha
Abijah Abijah Menna
Asa Asa Melea
Jehoshaphat Jehoshaphat Eliakim
Jehoram Jehoram Jonam
Ahaziah Joseph
JehoashJudas
AmaziahSymeon
Levi
Azariah (Uzziah) Uzziah(Azariah) Matthat
Jotham Jotham Jorim
Ahaz Ahaz Eliezer
Hezekiah Hezekiah Jesus
Manasseh Manasseh Er
Amon Amon Elmadam
Josiah Josiah Cosam
JehoiakimAddi
Jeconiah(Jehoiachin) JeconiahNeri
Shealtiel (Pedaiah) 2 Shealtiel Shealtiel 3
Zerubbabel 4 Zerubbabel Zerubbabel
Rhesa
Abiud Joanan
Joda
Eliakim Josech
Semein
Azor Mattathias
Maath
Zadok Naggai
Esli
Achim Nahum
Amos
Eliud Mattathias
Joseph
Eleazar Jannai
Melchi
Matthan Levi
Matthat
Jacob Heli(fatherofMary)
Joseph Joseph(Heli’sson-in-law)
Jesus (foster son) Jesus (Mary’s son)1 At Nathan, Luke begins reckoning the genealogy through Jesus’ maternal line, while Matthew continues with the paternal line.
2 Zerubbabel evidently was the natural son of Pedaiah and the legal son of Shealtiel by brother-in-law marriage; or he was brought up by Shealtiel after his father Pedaiah’s death and became legally recognized as the son of Shealtiel.—1Ch 3:17-19; Ezr 3:2; Lu 3:27.
3 Shealtiel the son of Jeconiah possibly was the son-in-law of Neri.—1Ch 3:17; Lu 3:27.
4 The lines meet in Shealtiel and Zerubbabel, afterward diverging. This divergence could have been through two different descendants of Zerubbabel, or Rhesa or Abiud could have been a son-in-law.((Sorry it's not lined up perfectly.))
To sit on the throne of David, you must proceed through the maternal line of David and Solomon. The virgin birth nullifies that because Joseph was not Jesus' father.As to the genealogy in Luke there is no mention of it being through Mary. What you have is two authors who were not aware of each others works so they both list different lineages. Since Luke was a gentile he probably did not know enough to realize that the lineage must come through Solomon. Here is what Luke says:
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Where does it say Mary here? It does not. You can claim that Heli is Joseph's father-in-law but there is no evidence that this is so. Also, Elizabeth was Mary's cousin and she was of the lineage of Aaron which would lead to Mary more than likely being of the tribe of Levi.
No matter how you view it, Jesus was not of the seed of David and Solomon. His chance of sitting on the throne of David was doomed by his lineage.
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 03 2007,10:56) Quote You are right. It was written to people who want to believe that G-d would go against His own Torah. It was written to those who know God and not just a book.
Question: how do you know 'God the Father' is YHVH? Please show me a single instance of YHVH in your bible. That is one reason some Christians think Jesus is YHVH.
Quote Quote Quote Quote The ‘god of this world’ is YHVH. If you read your ‘old testament’ you’d know that. But you need to believe in the boogie man in the red suit so you will stay in line and not stray. Besides when did YHVH hand over the world to 'satan', since the time between the Tanakh was written and the 1st century AD? He certainly didn't give it to him while the various Jewish prophets heard from G-d. See here is the thing because you have no spirit you as the scripture says can't think spirit. Is the God the creator of the “system of things”? We fight against the powers of the air. You don't know they exist!
Oh NO not the 'you don't have the spirit' line of reasoning again. You christians toss this around amongst one another just as much as you do non-christians. Its code for 'you don't believe as I do so you are wrong and I am right'. So much for the spirit making all Christians 'one'.
You keep forgetting to factor in the Human part of the whole matter. The Old Testament doesn't have mistakes because their is nothing to compare it too. So how would you know if it had “HUMAN” errors or NOT. If it does have human errors does that mean that their is no GOD? I suppose to you it would.
If the Jewish bible based itself on another prior set of scriptures and they conflicted there would be an issue. Since this is not the case we take it on faith that the things written in the Jewish bible is true. You do the same with your bible but there is the issue of it conflicting with the Jewish scriptures in many places. Your continual 'what if' scenario does not work because speculation does not equate to truth.
Quote I understand. If the Old testament had a book preceding it would the Old Testament have Human errors, or the book before it? But the message would be the same wouldn't it.
The Old testament testifies of a lamb of God. The New Testament testifies that the Lamb of God came and was sacrificed. Otherwise you would still be sacrificing animals.Show me where G-d will give His son to be slaughtered as a sacrificial lamb in the Jewish bible. You claim the 'lamb of G-d' is foretold in your 'old testament'. Show me.
The Jewish people sacrificed for 40 years after Jesus' death. The temple was destroyed so there will be no more sacrifices until the third temple is built. How do Christians deal with that fact? How can you reconcile Jesus 'once for all' death in light of the promise of the third temple and the return of the sacrificial system?
Quote Quote
Show me 'part two' in the Jewish bible. 'Part two' is yet to come. No one on here has been able to provide any substantial scripture from the Jewish bible to show that Jesus could have been the end times Moshiach.And by constantly questioning the reality of G-d to compare to the reality of Jesus you are just digging a deeper hole for yourself. G-d is not of this world. G-d cannot be contained in this world.
1Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
Yet Jesus was a man and walked the earth so people DID SEE HIM according to your bible. So the things he did, the thousands that heard him, the things that happened at his death (darkness for 3 hours, earthquake, zombies walking around) should have caught at least one other person's attention. Not a peep.
Who said Jesus IS GOD? NOT me! Jesus IS who HE said He is the SON of God. The lamb of God not God Himself. Were you ever a “Christian”?
My my. So you are saying that the ones on here who believe in the trinity are not Christians? How about the ones who believe in Oneness? Are they 'lost' like me? So many lost people. According to what you believe that is. The lake of fire will be full of all sorts of people. I guess only you and a few others will be in heaven.Quote I'm not questioning the reality of God. I “KNOW” God. He is my Father which was this whole plan to begin with OR don't you know that.
I'm questioning why you don't believe. You don't believe because of human errors. Again If the Old testament had human errors would you believe in YOUR G_D. By your assumption of the New testament I would have to say you would NOT!It is not human errors that are the problem. It is that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies of the end times Moshiach. He did not have the right lineage. Beyond that the end times Moshiach was never meant to be a spiritual savior. G-d is the only savior. Your religion relies on a man for salvation while mine relies upon G-d.
Quote Quote
I don't believe in Jesus because he did not fulfill any of the prophecies of the end times Moschiach. He did not even have the proper lineage to sit on the throne of David. He was never anointed as a king or priest. He went against G-d's Torah by telling people they had to drink his blood to have life. He broke the commandment to honor mother and father (is that why he did not have a long life?). He did not partake of the Passover properly because
he ate leavened bread. During his ministry he spoke poorly of Gentiles who sought his assistance which violated G-d's Torah. He constantly degraded his fellow Jews which is another violation of Torah. He added the stipulation of lust to adultery which is against the Torah because you are not to add to Torah.This is but a few of the reasons that Jesus could not have been who you say he is.
You are confused with addition and completion. Abraham showed that the human race was worthy of a sacrifice by obeying God to the point of sacrificing his own son. Because of this God gave His only Son to pay for our sins which is why “you don't sacrifice animals”. Does not God own the whole earth. Do animals have to be sacrificed on a certain piece of property? What happens in between now and the “new temple”?
What Abraham did had nothing to do with salvation for humanity.
Again when the third temple is built the sacrificial system will resume. How can you explain this if Jesus 'paid it all'?
And if you'll look back in this thread I have already shown what is required to atone for sins. Repentance, prayer, fasting, and charity are among the ways.
Quote What good are keeping the feasts without the sacrifice of animals? Feasts without an offering? Isn't that breaking the word of God under the OLD COVENANT?
Where do you get that idea?Hi Kenrch
I’m interjecting a bit out of turn here, but I find this quite revealing:
++”Truth is you are lacking in faith to believe the Whole plan. You get the first part but when it comes to part TWO you reject it because you can't “PROVE IT”. Well again you can't PROVE that their is a God other than the Old Testament. If you can't prove that then why should anyone believe in your “proof theory”. We believe in Jesus. You don't because their is no proof. If we go by proof and not faith then their is no Creator!
While a conservative christian view has the gospels written by disciples / apsotles who were eyewitnesses, most scholarship says this is not true. Either the gospel was written by those who genuinely believed the invented / embellished oral account passed to them, or they had political motivation to do the invention / elaboration themselves. There was a prophecy to be fulfilled and they were going to do it, whether it actually happened or not. The fact that they had to make extraordinary claims would not have been such a big thing in an age ignorant of the scientific method. With this in mind, we come to your statement above. In the christian tradition, if there was no Jesus then there is no creator. This extraordinary idea makes god falsifiable! Until such time as a miracle-doing messiah returns and demonstrates by defying the laws of physics the existence of a deity, the provisional conclusion must be that there is no such god.
I realise you posted this in response to someone who does believe in god, but as you see I think the logic can be taken further.
Stuart
RIVERS OF LIVING WATER
In the last day, that great day of the feast
Jesus stood and cried out aloud
To the Jews and the Pharisees, the chief priests
He addressed the assembled crowd:
“If any man thirst, let him come unto Me
And he'll never thirst again
And from out of his mouth, living waters shall flow
Everlasting life for all men..”Rivers of living waters shall flow
God's gift, the whole creation will show
Peaceful and free from fear
Gentle, and crystal clear
One day from new Jerusalem shall go
FLOWING, AT LAST THE WHOLE WORLD WILL KNOW THAT GOD
GIVES TO THOSE WHO FREELY RECEIVE, RIVERS, IF YOU BELIEVE.Jesus had said:” Let him freely partake
Of the waters of life I give
Just like a spring where the waters don't fail
He will flourish as long as he lives”
When the Fountain of all living waters returns
He will let the oppressed go free
And the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God
As the waters covers the seaRIVERS OF LIVING WATERS WILL FLOW
GOD'S GIFT, THE WHOLE CREATION WILL SHOW
PEACEFUL, AND FREE FROM FEAR
GENTLE AND CRYSTAL CLEAR
ONE DAY FROM NEW JERUSALEM SHALL GO
FLOWING, AT LAST THE WHOLE WORLD WILL KNOW THAT GOD
GIVES TO THOSE WHO FREELY RECEIVE
RIVERS IF YOU BELIEVEPeace and Love Mrs.
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 03 2007,22:06) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 03 2007,16:25) It was Roman tradition that the condemned should carry their own cross, signifying consent to the judgment. The traditional story is that as Jesus began to carry the cross in His weakened condition he fell under its weight and Simon was recruited to carry it to Golgotha.
http://www.godsholyspirit.com/christian_desk/contradiction_3.htmSeems plausible.
A great deal is made of the trials Jesus underwent, and yet no mention is made in Matthew, Mark or Luke of the reason or physical state of Jesus that would necessitate a break with the custom of the convict carrying his own cross?Plausible?
Stuart
I'm not arguing there was a break in the tradition. It seems plausible to me that Yeshua was the initial bearer of the cross and Simon was pressed into service when it was not physically possible for Yeshua to continue, given what he had already endured. John narrative does not record that Yeshua carried the cross the whole way. Also the Matt, Mark and Luke texts do not affirm that Yeshua at no time carried the cross. These are the details that are required in order to claim a contradiction has occurred.Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 04 2007,05:34) No matter how you view it, Jesus was not of the seed of David and Solomon. His chance of sitting on the throne of David was doomed by his lineage.
That's because Jesus is God's literal Son and from the incoruptable seed of God, himself.Our Father is the root of David. Jesus is the root and offspring of David.
If you think about it – we are all from the seed of David – from the seed of Abraham – from the seed of God.
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 04 2007,01:52) I don't believe in Jesus because he did not fulfill any of the prophecies of the end times Moschiach.
What are the prophecies that Jesus didn't fulfill? Won't some of these be fulfilled when he *comes again*? I don't believe the bible ever says there is a time restriction on when these things are to be fulfilled. Could this be an interpretational thing? Could this be why some Jews believe in Jesus while others do not?Jesus is the seed of David, by adoption through Joseph and by blood through Mary.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-son-of-David.html
Isaiah,
I've watched as you've edited your, “Jesus is the seed of David….” sentence.Adoption is one idea. But blood is not passed through the women to the offspring, nor are bloodlines connected through women.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 03 2007,17:35) Jesus is the seed of David, by adoption through Joseph and by blood through Mary. http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-son-of-David.html
Adoption does not count because he will not be the seed of David. Mary's lineage (assuming it is because Luke says it is Joseph's lineage) goes through Nathan when the it must go through Solomon1Ch 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.
1Ch 22:10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.What other problem is there in BOTH genealogies? The both include Shealtiel. Shealtiel is the son of Jeconiah (Coniah). What do we know of this king?
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Jer 22:24 As I live, saith the LORD, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were the signet upon my right hand, yet would I pluck thee thence;
Jer 22:25 And I will give thee into the hand of them that seek thy life, and into the hand of them whose face thou fearest, even into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of the Chaldeans.
Jer 22:26 And I will cast thee out, and thy mother that bare thee, into another country, where ye were not born; and there shall ye die.
Jer 22:27 But to the land whereunto they desire to return, thither shall they not return.
Jer 22:28 Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not?
Jer 22:29 O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.
Jer 22:30 Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.
===============================Here is the lineage
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1Ch 3:16 And the sons of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.
1Ch 3:17 And the sons of Jeconiah – the same is Assir – Shealtiel his son;
===============================The seed of Jeconiah was cursed by G-d to never sit the throne of David.
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