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Isaiah,
The house is nearly finished and so is our bank account!
Good to see you here in this thread……
This might help.
John 6:53-58
Except ye eat the flesh . . . and drink the blood . . . no life, etc.–The harshest word He had yet uttered in their ears. They asked how it was possible to eat His flesh. He answers, with great solemnity, “It is indispensable.” Yet even here a thoughtful hearer might find something to temper the harshness. He says they must not only “eat His flesh” but “drink His blood,” which could not but suggest the idea of His death–implied in the separation of one's flesh from his blood. And as He had already hinted that it was to be something very different from a natural death, saying, “My flesh I will give for the life of the world” (John 6:51), it must have been pretty plain to candid hearers that He meant something above the gross idea which the bare terms expressed. And farther, when He added that they “had no life in them unless they thus ate and drank,” it was impossible they should think He meant that the temporal life they were then living was dependent on their eating and drinking, in this gross sense, His flesh and blood. Yet the whole statement was certainly confounding, and beyond doubt was meant to be so. Our Lord had told them that in spite of all they had “seen” in Him, they “did not believe” (John 6:36). For their conviction therefore he does not here lay Himself out; but having the ear not only of them but of the more candid and thoughtful in the crowded synagogue, and the miracle of the loaves having led up to the most exalted of all views of His Person and Office, He takes advantage of their very difficulties and objections to announce, for all time, those most profound truths which are here expressed, regardless of the disgust of the unteachable, and the prejudices even of the most sincere, which His language would seem only designed to deepen. The truth really conveyed here is no other than that expressed in John 6:51, though in more emphatic terms–that He Himself, in the virtue of His sacrificial death, is the spiritual and eternal life of men; and that unless men voluntarily appropriate to themselves this death, in its sacrificial virtue, so as to become the very life and nourishment of their inner man, they have no spiritual and eternal life at all. Not as if His death were the only thing of value, but it is what gives all else in Christ's Incarnate Person, Life, and Office, their whole value to us sinners. (Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown)
http://bibletools.org/….JFBQuote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 03 2007,15:33) Isaiah, The house is nearly finished and so is our bank account!
Good to see you here in this thread……
He he, know the feeling with the finances. My wife wants us to buy one of those toy dogs. Which is fine, except they cost the thick end of $1000. Hmmmm. It won't even guard the house or protect the kids.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 02 2007,22:33) This might help. John 6:53-58
Except ye eat the flesh . . . and drink the blood . . . no life, etc.–The harshest word He had yet uttered in their ears. They asked how it was possible to eat His flesh. He answers, with great solemnity, “It is indispensable.” Yet even here a thoughtful hearer might find something to temper the harshness. He says they must not only “eat His flesh” but “drink His blood,” which could not but suggest the idea of His death–implied in the separation of one's flesh from his blood. And as He had already hinted that it was to be something very different from a natural death, saying, “My flesh I will give for the life of the world” (John 6:51), it must have been pretty plain to candid hearers that He meant something above the gross idea which the bare terms expressed. And farther, when He added that they “had no life in them unless they thus ate and drank,” it was impossible they should think He meant that the temporal life they were then living was dependent on their eating and drinking, in this gross sense, His flesh and blood. Yet the whole statement was certainly confounding, and beyond doubt was meant to be so. Our Lord had told them that in spite of all they had “seen” in Him, they “did not believe” (John 6:36). For their conviction therefore he does not here lay Himself out; but having the ear not only of them but of the more candid and thoughtful in the crowded synagogue, and the miracle of the loaves having led up to the most exalted of all views of His Person and Office, He takes advantage of their very difficulties and objections to announce, for all time, those most profound truths which are here expressed, regardless of the disgust of the unteachable, and the prejudices even of the most sincere, which His language would seem only designed to deepen. The truth really conveyed here is no other than that expressed in John 6:51, though in more emphatic terms–that He Himself, in the virtue of His sacrificial death, is the spiritual and eternal life of men; and that unless men voluntarily appropriate to themselves this death, in its sacrificial virtue, so as to become the very life and nourishment of their inner man, they have no spiritual and eternal life at all. Not as if His death were the only thing of value, but it is what gives all else in Christ's Incarnate Person, Life, and Office, their whole value to us sinners. (Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown)
http://bibletools.org/….JFB
No help. Jesus still violated G-d's Torah and Tanakh. No Jewish person with scriptural knowledge can accept such a person as 'messiah'. Many of his early disciples showed that. Even John the Baptist began to doubt. When the real Moshiach comes ther will be NO doubt.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 03 2007,15:37) Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 03 2007,15:33) Isaiah, The house is nearly finished and so is our bank account!
Good to see you here in this thread……
He he, know the feeling with the finances. My wife wants us to buy one of those toy dogs. Which is fine, except they cost the thick end of $1000. Hmmmm. It won't even guard the house or protect the kids.
You'd be surprised – those little dogs and yip and yap pretty loud if there is an intruder. Plus, it will make your dear wife happy! She did just birth you a dear son….come on Isaiah, that count's for something, huh? Ha!Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 03 2007,15:32) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 02 2007,22:26) Ummm Towshab, I believe Yeshua was speaking metaphorically…. 
Unbelievable.
So he was metaphorically disobeying his (supposed) own father? So much for honoring father and mother. Sorry but that doesn;t cut the mustard. The non-ignorant Hebrews in his midst showed him what they thought of his 'metaphoric' drinking of blood:Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
These people at least displayed their knowlede of G-d's Tanakh.
If He was speaking literally, Towshab, you might have some semblence of a point here. But he wasn't. Quite clearly he wasn't endorsing cannibalism, common sense should tell you that. Can you find something a little less ambiguious?Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 03 2007,15:39) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 03 2007,15:37) Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 03 2007,15:33) Isaiah, The house is nearly finished and so is our bank account!
Good to see you here in this thread……
He he, know the feeling with the finances. My wife wants us to buy one of those toy dogs. Which is fine, except they cost the thick end of $1000. Hmmmm. It won't even guard the house or protect the kids.
You'd be surprised – those little dogs and yip and yap pretty loud if there is an intruder. Plus, it will make your dear wife happy! She did just birth you a dear son….come on Isaiah, that count's for something, huh? Ha!
http://www.thriftyfun.com/tf49593107.tip.htmlThis dog isn't going to trouble any intruder….
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 02 2007,22:40) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 03 2007,15:32) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 02 2007,22:26) Ummm Towshab, I believe Yeshua was speaking metaphorically…. Unbelievable.
So he was metaphorically disobeying his (supposed) own father? So much for honoring father and mother. Sorry but that doesn;t cut the mustard. The non-ignorant Hebrews in his midst showed him what they thought of his 'metaphoric' drinking of blood:Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
These people at least displayed their knowlede of G-d's Tanakh.
If He was speaking literally, Towshab, you might have some semblence of a point here. But he wasn't. Quite clearly he wasn't endorsing cannibalism, common sense should tell you that. Can you find something a little less ambiguious?
Do I need to? Sin is sin. So much for the 'spotless lamb of G-d'. Since the Jewish scriptures were explicit on the ingestion of blood being against G-d then even the 'symbolic' is evil.Was it not Jesus who tried to show that it was the heart of the 'Law' and not the letter that mattered? Did he not equate lust with adultery? Anger with murder? Yet we are to suspend this ideal now because it was not an actual ingestion of blood.
So much for writing the 'Law'' on our hearts.
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 02 2007,10:11) You are right David's car was “white” However it still got David where he wanted to go!
Quote Prove to me that they died outside of the Christian bible. Prove to me that their is a GOD outside the bible.
Look around you. G-d is seen in His creation. You may counter by saying Jesus was involved in creation but that concept is only supported in your Christian bible and never once in the Jewish bible.Quote Quote Who said it wasn't dumped in the pile of bodies that all crucified Jews were dumped on? There is not recorded history of the Romans allowing any criminals being allowed proper burial. Who said it was…you!
No actually I got that from several different scholars who have done research on Roman crucifixion of the period when Jesus was supposed to have died. Records show that the bodies of crucified people were more than likely tossed in a heap to be burned. Maybe this was Gehenna?
Quote Truth is you have no answer for this simple common sense truth. So you start with the “prove” thing. Common sense to who, people who believe in the Christian bible? To every one else it is not common sense in the slightest. Actually it is not really even common sense to believers it is common belief. Sense has nothing to do with it.
Quote You can't prove that the bible is true except Faith that God gave it to the Israel. You can't prove outside the bible that the Jews are the chosen people. You can't prove that their are NO mistakes in the Old Testament. True but I can prove the ones in your bible. By virtue of the survival of the Jewish people through all of what they have endured I would reconsider whether or not Israel is G-d’s chosen people. They have always been a small people but the Jewish bible also acknowledges that. They were not chosen because they were many in number but that they were small in number. And G-d keeps it that way.
Quote Inspired by God “Humans” wrote the bible both Old and New. I disagree. I believe the Tanakh was inspired but I see way too many contradictions in the Christian bible to accept its inspiration. G-d would not inspire people to make that many mistakes. There are many many instances of misquoting the Jewish scriptures and downright twisting them in others.
Quote If one historian said that Jesus was born in December and another said He was born between September and October does that mean that Jesus was NOT born? That’s an odd argument because no historian records his birth. Only the Christian bible records this and most of it was written by anonymous writers. We cannot even be sure if Paul was real because he does not exist outside of the Christian bible either.
Quote That's why God gave us the Holy Spirit so we would have witness in our spirit. You know nothing of God's Spirit. No that is why you were told you would have the Holy Spirit so you’d believe you had the truth. The past 2000 years have shown the fruit of the Christian Holy Spirit.
Quote If one says that the tomb was found empty by Mary and another one says that the tomb was found empty by John, was Jesus' body still in the tomb? NO! IT was found EMPTY. If it was ever occupied at all. All in the Christian bible. You’d at least think the writers would get together and get their stories straight. But then again the early church did not allow people to have access to the Christian bible for hundreds of years and they had to believe what came from the mouths of priests. It still goes on today because people believe what comes out of the mouth of preachers without ever checking it out.
Quote The message gets across no matter who found the tomb empty. Yes but to convince people of the validity of a story it should not be full of contradictions.
Quote Have you ever heard the expression “IN OTHER WORDS”?
But they were not other words they are conflicting words. ‘In other words’ means to clarify. The accounts in the gospels confuse because they do not agree.Quote In other words the tomb was Empty. Any way you want to say it the tomb was empty. IMO Stu wasn't getting far so he was sent help.
Stu is trying to prove that the resurrection story is full of holes? Good for him.
Quote Jesus was of the blood line of David. Weather through Joseph or Mary Blood is Blood. We are one in Christ their is no male or female in Christ, NO Jew or Gentile. This is the GOD I serve. I don't know the G_D 
you serve.Sorry bu
t in order to sit on the throne of David, one must be in the bloodline from David and Solomon through the male side. If you knew more of your ‘old testament’ you’d realize that. G-d doesn’t change His rules. He is not like man.Quote You should come up to date with God's plan. We have God's Spirit to guide us WE are no longer under a school master. Sounds like you didn’t learn anything either. All you have is ‘believe in a man for salvation’ and ‘let the Spirit guide us’. The same spirit that has guided the hands of others to kill and persecute not only the Jewish people but all others who do not believe as they do. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Unitarians, Christadelphians, Arians, etc. would have all been burned at the stake for heresy only a few hundred years ago.
The same spirit that says if you don’t believe as I do (and I’m right because I have the spirit) then you will burn in hell.
Quote I have graduated you are still in first grade according to God's plan. Spiritually Of Course! Didn’t Jesus say people should come as little children? Seems you don’t even know your own bible.
Quote Again:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Wow the words of the apostate Paul will sway me every time! He was nothing but a hired temple guard who despised his Jewish heritage. Why would I place stock in his message? He never once claimed “And the word of YHVH came to me”. All of his own words. Again you follow a man while I seek to follow the creator, YHVH G-d.
The ‘god of this world’ is YHVH. If you read your ‘old testament’ you’d know that. But you need to believe in the boogie man in the red suit so you will stay in line and not stray.
Quote IMO the blood thing is for the pride of the Jews. Actually Gentiles have more faith than Jews. The Jews NEED fleshly proof but WE are of the Spirit. What do you have faith in? That G-d who sacrifice a human for you when His Torah spoke against such? I would put my faith in YHVH not some supposed god-man.
Quote Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. See, there is some truth in the Christian bible. But this same idea can be found in the Jewish bible. Anything true n the Christian bible is not new, anything new is not true.
Quote YOU can't prove that God created the worlds no more than I can prove that the apostles didn't remove Jesus' body. No I cannot but then no one has ever seen G-d. Jesus was supposed to have walked this earth, fed multitudes of people, healed people, and performed many miracles. One would think that such a person would attract someone’s attention but not a peep outside of the Christian bible. So in order to believe that Jesus came from the tomb you must believe he in fact ever was placed in a tomb. Since we only have the Christian bible which is full of errors and contradictions all such ‘proof’ is highly suspect.
Do you believe in Harry Potter? That’s fiction you know. Just because a book is written about something does not make it true.
Why do you believe Christianity is true and not Islam?
Quote But what does common sense tell you? But I “HAD” faith that God created the worlds and “HAD” faith that Jesus is HIS Christ. But now ~I “KNOW”~ through the Spirit because of faith that Both the Father and Son are true.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
I'm not so sure that you have faith to believe in God but rather wish to “prove” all things wrong and you right.
I have faith in G-d I do not have faith in a man-god. I do not have faith in something that contradicts G-d’s holy words to Israel. If it does how can it be of G-d?Jesus contradicts what G-d inspired in the Tanakh. That is all the proof I need.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 02 2007,22:48) Not a contradiction. Try again.
(Un)fortunately for you I will 'try again'. You can peruse the fiction of Matthew thread to continue.The only reason there is no contradiction is that you, like the majority of others, live in fear of hellfire and damnation. How many millions of people have bought this 'fire insurance' and left totally unchanged?
I'll keep an eye out for it. Make sure you read the definition for contradiction before you post it though. Were looking for real ones….
“So the soldiers took charge of Jesus. Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha). Here they crucified him, and with him two others—one on each side and Jesus in the middle.” (John 19:17-18)
It was Roman tradition that the condemned should carry their own cross, signifying consent to the judgment. The traditional story is that as Jesus began to carry the cross in His weakened condition he fell under its weight and Simon was recruited to carry it to Golgotha.
http://www.godsholyspirit.com/christian_desk/contradiction_3.htmSeems plausible.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 03 2007,16:25) It was Roman tradition that the condemned should carry their own cross, signifying consent to the judgment. The traditional story is that as Jesus began to carry the cross in His weakened condition he fell under its weight and Simon was recruited to carry it to Golgotha.
http://www.godsholyspirit.com/christian_desk/contradiction_3.htmSeems plausible.
A great deal is made of the trials Jesus underwent, and yet no mention is made in Matthew, Mark or Luke of the reason or physical state of Jesus that would necessitate a break with the custom of the convict carrying his own cross?Plausible?
Stuart
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 02 2007,10:11) You are right David's car was “white” However it still got David where he wanted to go!
Quote Prove to me that they died outside of the Christian bible. Prove to me that their is a GOD outside the bible.
Look around you. G-d is seen in His creation. You may counter by saying Jesus was involved in creation but that concept is only supported in your Christian bible and never once in the Jewish bible.==============================
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
==============================Quote Quote Who said it wasn't dumped in the pile of bodies that all crucified Jews were dumped on? There is not recorded history of the Romans allowing any criminals being allowed proper burial. Who said it was…you!
No actually I got that from several different scholars who have done research on Roman crucifixion of the period when Jesus was supposed to have died. Records show that the bodies of crucified people were more than likely tossed in a heap to be burned. Maybe this was Gehenna?
Quote Truth is you have no answer for this simple common sense truth. So you start with the “prove” thing. Common sense to who, people who believe in the Christian bible? To every one else it is not common sense in the slightest. Actually it is not really even common sense to believers it is common belief. Sense has nothing to do with it.
Quote You can't prove that the bible is true except Faith that God gave it to the Israel. You can't prove outside the bible that the Jews are the chosen people. You can't prove that their are NO mistakes in the Old Testament. True but I can prove the ones in your bible. By virtue of the survival of the Jewish people through all of what they have endured I would reconsider whether or not Israel is G-d’s chosen people. They have always been a small people but the Jewish bible also acknowledges that. They were not chosen because they were many in number but that they were small in number. And G-d keeps it that way.
Quote Inspired by God “Humans” wrote the bible both Old and New. I disagree. I believe the Tanakh was inspired but I see way too many contradictions in the Christian bible to accept its inspiration. G-d would not inspire people to make that many mistakes. There are many many instances of misquoting the Jewish scriptures and downright twisting them in others.
Quote If one historian said that Jesus was born in December and another said He was born between September and October does that mean that Jesus was NOT born? That’s an odd argument because no historian records his birth. Only the Christian bible records this and most of it was written by anonymous writers. We cannot even be sure if Paul was real because he does not exist outside of the Christian bible either.
Quote That's why God gave us the Holy Spirit so we would have witness in our spirit. You know nothing of God's Spirit. No that is why you were told you would have the Holy Spirit so you’d believe you had the truth. The past 2000 years have shown the fruit of the Christian Holy Spirit.
Quote If one says that the tomb was found empty by Mary and another one says that the tomb was found empty by John, was Jesus' body still in the tomb? NO! IT was found EMPTY. If it was ever occupied at all. All in the Christian bible. You’d at least think the writers would get together and get their stories straight. But then again the early church did not allow people to have access to the Christian bible for hundreds of years and they had to believe what came from the mouths of priests. It still goes on today because people believe what comes out of the mouth of preachers without ever checking it out.
Quote The message gets across no matter who found the tomb empty. Yes but to convince people of the validity of a story it should not be full of contradictions.
Quote Have you ever heard the expression “IN OTHER WORDS”?
But they were not other words they are conflicting words. ‘In other words’ means to clarify. The accounts in the gospels confuse because they do not agree.Quote In other words the tomb was Empty. Any way you want to say it the tomb was empty. IMO Stu wasn't getting far so he was sent help.
Stu is trying to prove that the resurrection story is full of holes? Good for him.
Quote Jesus was of the blood line of David. Weather through Joseph or Mary Blood is Blood. We are one in Christ their is no male or female in Christ, NO Jew or Gentile. This is the GOD I serve. I don't know the G_D you serve.Sorry but in order to sit on the throne of David, one must be in the bloodline from David and Solomon through the male side. If you knew more of your ‘old testament’ you’d realize that. G-d doesn’t change His rules. He is not like man.
Quote You should come up to date with God's plan. We have God's Spirit to guide us WE are no longer under a school master. Sounds like you didn’t learn anything either. All you have is ‘believe in a man for salvation’ and ‘let the Spirit guide us’. The same spirit that has guided the hands of others to kill and persecute not only the Jewish people but all others who do not believe as they do. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Unitarians, Christadelphians, Arians, etc. would have all been burned at the stake for heresy only a few hundred years ago.
The same spirit that says if you don’t believe as I do (and I’m right because I have the spirit) then you will burn in hell.
Quote I have graduated you are still in first grade according to God's plan. Spiritually Of Course! Didn’t Jesus say people should come as little children? Seems you don’t even know your own bible.
Quote Again:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Wow the words of the apostate Paul will sway me every time! He was nothing but a hired temple guard who despised his Jewish heritage. Why would I place stock in his message? He never once claimed “And the word of YHVH came to me”. All of his own words. Again you follow a man while I seek to follow the creator, YHVH G-d.
The ‘god of this world’ is YHVH. If you read your ‘old testament’ you’d know that. But you need to believe in the boogie man in the red suit so you will stay in line and not stray. Besides when did YHVH hand over the world to 'satan', since the time between the Tanakh was written and the 1st century AD? He certainly didn't give it to him while the various Jewish prophets heard from G-d.
==============================
Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.Dan 4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
Psa 83:18 That they may know that it is Thou alone whose name is the LORD, the Most High over all the earth.
==============================Quote IMO the blood thing is for the pride of the Jews. Actually Gentiles have more faith than Jews. The Jews NEED fleshly proof but WE are of the Spirit. How do you know you have more faith because you say so? What, are you going to chant 'We've got faith, yes we do, we've got faith, how bout you'? You insult people you don't even know. But that makes sense because of he anti-semitic nature of the Christian bible. You are just a product of your religion.
But what do you have faith in? That G-d who sacrifice a human for you when His Torah spoke against such? I would put my faith in YHVH not some supposed god-man.
================================
Lev 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Psa 106:37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
Psa 106:38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.Eze 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
Eze 16:21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?Eze 20:31 For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be enquired of by you.
Eze 23:37 That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bare unto me, to pass for them through the fire, to devour them.
============================So are you saying that G-d required a human sacrifice when he calls such wicked? Does G-d now take on the evil practices of other gods? 'Hey if all of those other gods wanted human sacrifices it will work for me!'
Quote Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. See, there is some truth in the Christian bible. But this same idea can be found in the Jewish bible. Anything true n the Christian bible is not new, anything new is not true.
Quote YOU can't prove that God created the worlds no more than I can prove that the apost
les didn't remove Jesus' body.No I cannot but then no one has ever seen G-d. Jesus was supposed to have walked this earth, fed multitudes of people, healed people, and performed many miracles. One would think that such a person would attract someone’s attention but not a peep outside of the Christian bible. So in order to believe that Jesus came from the tomb you must believe he in fact ever was placed in a tomb. Since we only have the Christian bible which is full of errors and contradictions all such ‘proof’ is highly suspect.
Do you believe in Harry Potter? That’s fiction you know. Just because a book is written about something does not make it true.
Why do you believe Christianity is true and not Islam?
Quote But what does common sense tell you? But I “HAD” faith that God created the worlds and “HAD” faith that Jesus is HIS Christ. But now ~I “KNOW”~ through the Spirit because of faith that Both the Father and Son are true.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
I'm not so sure that you have faith to believe in God but rather wish to “prove” all things wrong and you right.
I have faith in G-d I do not have faith in a man-god. I do not have faith in something that contradicts G-d’s holy words to Israel. If it does how can it be of G-d?Jesus contradicts what G-d inspired in the Tanakh. That is all the proof I need.
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 03 2007,05:06) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 03 2007,16:25) It was Roman tradition that the condemned should carry their own cross, signifying consent to the judgment. The traditional story is that as Jesus began to carry the cross in His weakened condition he fell under its weight and Simon was recruited to carry it to Golgotha.
http://www.godsholyspirit.com/christian_desk/contradiction_3.htmSeems plausible.
A great deal is made of the trials Jesus underwent, and yet no mention is made in Matthew, Mark or Luke of the reason or physical state of Jesus that would necessitate a break with the custom of the convict carrying his own cross?Plausible?
Stuart
Stu,There was two main agendas in the Christian bible. The first obviously was to get people to believe in Jesus. The second was to get the world to despise Jewish people. Up until recent history the Jewish people have been hated around the world because of what is found in the Christian bible.
This was especially true in the Gospel of John although Matthew was second in line. Matthew was supposedly written to convince Jewish people of Jesus but if the writer was Jewish he had a hatred for his people.
In John the phrase 'the Jews' appears 64 times. Most of those times it is in a negative way. With this in mind people through the ages placed the suffering and death of Jesus on 'the Jews' and have killed them and persecuted them for it.
From http://www.appleofhiseye.org/Whatdoy….lt.aspx
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“For almost twenty centuries . . . the church was the archenemy of the Jews—our most powerful and relentless oppressor and the worlds’ greatest force for the dissemination of Anti-Semitic beliefs and the instigation of the acts of hatred. Many of the same people who operated the gas chambers worshiped in Christian churches on Sunday. . . . The question of the complicity of the church in the murder of the Jews is a living one. We must understand the truths of our history.”—Abraham Foxman, Anti-Defamation Leaguei
Nazi anti-Judaism was the work of godless, anti- Christian criminals. But it would not have been possible without the almost two thousand years’ prehistory of ‘Christian’ anti-Judaism. . . . —Hans Küngii
It is a painful but inescapable truth that anti- Semitism, which seethes with hate, was spawned and nourished by Christianity, which reveres a Jewish prophet who preached love and compassion. . . .Two thousand years of Christian anti-Judaism . . . hardened hearts against Jews. . . .This mind-set, deeply embedded in the Christian outlook, helps to explain why so many people were receptive to anti- Jewish propaganda. —Marvin Perryiii
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 04 2007,00:49) Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 02 2007,10:11) You are right David's car was “white” However it still got David where he wanted to go!
Quote Prove to me that they died outside of the Christian bible. Prove to me that their is a GOD outside the bible.
Look around you. G-d is seen in His creation. You may counter by saying Jesus was involved in creation but that concept is only supported in your Christian bible and never once in the Jewish bible.==============================
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
==============================Quote Quote Who said it wasn't dumped in the pile of bodies that all crucified Jews were dumped on? There is not recorded history of the Romans allowing any criminals being allowed proper burial. Who said it was…you!
No actually I got that from several different scholars who have done research on Roman crucifixion of the period when Jesus was supposed to have died. Records show that the bodies of crucified people were more than likely tossed in a heap to be burned. Maybe this was Gehenna?
Quote Truth is you have no answer for this simple common sense truth. So you start with the “prove” thing. Common sense to who, people who believe in the Christian bible? To every one else it is not common sense in the slightest. Actually it is not really even common sense to believers it is common belief. Sense has nothing to do with it.
Quote You can't prove that the bible is true except Faith that God gave it to the Israel. You can't prove outside the bible that the Jews are the chosen people. You can't prove that their are NO mistakes in the Old Testament. True but I can prove the ones in your bible. By virtue of the survival of the Jewish people through all of what they have endured I would reconsider whether or not Israel is G-d’s chosen people. They have always been a small people but the Jewish bible also acknowledges that. They were not chosen because they were many in number but that they were small in number. And G-d keeps it that way.
Quote Inspired by God “Humans” wrote the bible both Old and New. I disagree. I believe the Tanakh was inspired but I see way too many contradictions in the Christian bible to accept its inspiration. G-d would not inspire people to make that many mistakes. There are many many instances of misquoting the Jewish scriptures and downright twisting them in others.
Quote If one historian said that Jesus was born in December and another said He was born between September and October does that mean that Jesus was NOT born? That’s an odd argument because no historian records his birth. Only the Christian bible records this and most of it was written by anonymous writers. We cannot even be sure if Paul was real because he does not exist outside of the Christian bible either.
Quote That's why God gave us the Holy Spirit so we would have witness in our spirit. You know nothing of God's Spirit. No that is why you were told you would have the Holy Spirit so you’d believe you had the truth. The past 2000 years have shown the fruit of the Christian Holy Spirit.
Quote If one says that the tomb was found empty by Mary and another one says that the tomb was found empty by John, was Jesus' body still in the tomb? NO! IT was found EMPTY. If it was ever occupied at all. All in the Christian bible. You’d at least think the writers would get together and get their stories straight. But then again the early church did not allow people to have access to the Christian bible for hundreds of years and they had to believe what came from the mouths of priests. It still goes on today because people believe what comes out of the mouth of preachers without ever checking it out.
Quote The message gets across no matter who found the tomb empty. Yes but to convince people of the validity of a story it should not be full of contradictions.
Quote Have you ever heard the expression “IN OTHER WORDS”?
But they were not other words they are conflicting words. ‘In other words’ means to clarify. The accounts in the gospels confuse because they do not agree.Quote In other words the tomb was Empty. Anyway you want to say it the tomb was empty. IMO Stu wasn't getting far so he was sent help.
Stu is trying to prove that the resurrection story is full of holes? Good for him.
Quote Jesus was of the blood line of David. Weather through Joseph or Mary Blood is Blood. We are one in Christ their is no male or female in Christ, NO Jew or Gentile. This is the GOD I serve. I don't know the G_D you serve.Sorry but in order to sit on the throne of David, one must be in the bloodline from David and Solomon through the male side. If you knew more of your ‘old testament’ you’d realize that. G-d doesn’t change His rules. He is not like man.
Quote You should come up to date with God's plan. We have God's Spirit to guide us WE are no longer under a school master. Sounds like you didn’t learn anything either. All you have is ‘believe in a man for salvation’ and ‘let the Spirit guide us’. The same spirit that has guided the hands of others to kill and persecute not only the Jewish people but all others who do not believe as they do. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Unitarians, Christadelphians, Arians, etc. would have all been burned at the stake for heresy only a few hundred years ago.
The same spirit that says if you don’t believe as I do (and I’m right because I have the spirit) then you will burn in hell.
Quote I have graduated you are still in first grade according to God's plan. Spiritually Of Course! Didn’t Jesus say people should come as little children? Seems you don’t even know your own bible.
Quote Again:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Wow the words of the apostate Paul will sway me every time! He was nothing but a hired temple guard who despised his Jewish heritage. Why would I place stock in his message? He never once claimed “And the word of YHVH came to me”. All of his own words. Again you follow a man while I seek to follow the creator, YHVH G-d.
The ‘god of this world’ is YHVH. If you read your ‘old testament’ you’d know that. But you need to believe in the boogie man in the red suit so you will stay in line and not stray. Besides when did YHVH hand over the world to 'satan', since the time between the Tanakh was written and the 1st century AD? He certainly didn't give it to him while the various Jewish prophets heard from G-d.
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Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.Dan 4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
Psa 83:18 That they may know that it is Thou alone whose name is the LORD, the Most High over all the earth.
==============================Quote IMO the blood thing is for the pride of the Jews. Actually Gentiles have more faith than Jews. The Jews NEED fleshly proof but WE are of the Spirit. How do you know you have more faith because you say so? What, are you going to chant 'We've got faith, yes we do, we've got faith, how bout you'? You insult people you don't even know. But that makes sense because of he anti-semitic nature of the Christian bible. You are just a product of your religion.
But what do you have faith in? That G-d who sacrifice a human for you when His Torah spoke against such? I would put my faith in YHVH not some supposed god-man.
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Lev 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Psa 106:37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
Psa 106:38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.Eze 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
Eze 16:21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?Eze 20:31 For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be enquired of by you.
Eze 23:37 That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bare unto me, to pass for them through the fire, to devour them.
============================So are you saying that G-d required a human sacrifice when he calls such wicked? Does G-d now take on the evil practices of other gods? 'Hey if all of those other gods wanted human sacrifices it will work for me!'
Quote Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. See, there is some truth in the Christian bible. But this same idea can be found in the Jewish bible. Anything true n the Christian bible is not new, anything new is not true.
Quote YOU can't prove that God created the worlds no more than I can prove that the apostles didn't remove Jesus' body. No I cannot but then no one has ever seen G-d. Jesus was supposed to have walked this earth, fed multitudes of people, healed people, and performed many miracles. One would think that such a person would attract someone’s attention but not a peep outside of the Christian bible. So in order to believe that Jesus came from the tomb you must believe he in fact ever was placed in a tomb. Since we only have the Christian bible which is full of errors and contradictions all such ‘proof’ is highly suspect.
Do you believe in Harry Potter? That’s fiction you know. Just because a book is written about something does not make it true.
Why do you believe Christianity is true and not Islam?
Quote But what does common sense tell you? But I “HAD” faith that God created the worlds and “HAD” faith that Jesus is HIS Christ. But now ~I “KNOW”~ through the Spirit because of faith that Both the Father and Son are true.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
I'm not so sure that you have faith to believe in God but rather wish to “prove” all things wrong and you right.
I have faith in G-d I do not have faith in a man-god. I do not have faith in something that contradicts G-d’s holy words to Israel. If it does how can it be of G-d?Jesus contradicts what G-d inspired in the Tanakh. That is all the proof I need.
Quote Look around you. G-d is seen in His creation. You may counter by saying Jesus was involved in creation but that concept is only supported in your Christian bible and never once in the Jewish bible. You need to have a talk with Stu.
Quote Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
==============================How do you “know” that the Old Testament is 100% “word-for-word correct. You can't because their is nothing to compare it too. It's wonderful that you have Faith in a Creator but you cannot prove it because a bunch of words say so.
Sure I “believe” the old Testament also but one has to wonder if we had something to compare it too woud it stand up to your expatations?
The New Testament has human mistakes but the main theme is the same through out the book. Then we have the Spirit that gives witness that these things are true.
You openly condemn the SPIRIT but you are looking at the Catholics and her daughters that the New testament warns us about. Each of us are different and so we all as the New testament writers believe little different but we ALL stand on the same foundation. The house built on that foundation has different rooms not all the same size. The body of the church has different members not all doing the same thing. Though we have the SPIRIT we are still under the influence of the flesh~sin~and IMHO won't be perfect until we shed this old for the New.
Quote Common sense to who, people who believe in the Christian bible? To every one else it is not common sense in the slightest. Actually it is not really even common sense to believers it is common belief. Sense has nothing to do with it. No I mean anyone with common sense. I'll bet even Stu wouldn't die for a lie he started.
Quote I disagree. I believe the Tanakh was inspired but I see way too many contradictions in the Christian bible to accept its inspiration. G-d would not inspire people to make that many mistakes. There are many many instances of misquoting the Jewish scriptures and downright twisting them in others. Perhaps God was interested in the Message and not the way it is explained. The message is there and does not change.
Quote That’s an odd argument because no historian records his birth. Only the Christian bible records this and most of it was written by anonymous writers. We cannot even be sure if Paul was real because he does not exist outside of the Christian bible either. And what if one did would that make a difference? You are avoiding the question. Going by “proof” we can't be sure that their is a Creator? Or that the Jews are God's chosen people.
IT takes FAITH. Ask an atheist if the world was created in six days. What does the “proof” tell us. Yet you “believe” otherwise, WHY?
****
Quote No that is why you were told you would have the Holy Spirit so you’d believe you had the truth. The past 2000 years have shown the fruit of the Christian Holy Spirit.**** Their is your problem. When I received the Holy Spirit I did not even know what was happening to me. I couldn't tell you what the gospels were! I was raise Catholic and Catholics don't like you reading the bible.
I'm SURE I'm not the only one with this experience. SO you couldn't be MORE WRONG! SAD! very SAD! But this is the end time and I'm sure worse is still to come
Quote Stu is trying to prove that the resurrection story is full of holes? Good for him. I'm sure you two agree on a lot of things
Quote Wow the words of the apostate Paul will sway me ev
ery time! He was nothing but a hired temple guard who despised his Jewish heritage. Why would I place stock in his message? He never once claimed “And the word of YHVH came to me”. All of his own words. Again you follow a man while I seek to follow the creator, YHVH G-d.None of this is written for YOU!
Quote The ‘god of this world’ is YHVH. If you read your ‘old testament’ you’d know that. But you need to believe in the boogie man in the red suit so you will stay in line and not stray. Besides when did YHVH hand over the world to 'satan', since the time between the Tanakh was written and the 1st century AD? He certainly didn't give it to him while the various Jewish prophets heard from G-d. See here is the thing because you have no spirit you as the scripture says can't think spirit. Is the God the creator of the “system of things”? We fight against the powers of the air. You don't know they exist!
Quote No I cannot but then no one has ever seen G-d. Jesus was supposed to have walked this earth, fed multitudes of people, healed people, and performed many miracles. One would think that such a person would attract someone’s attention but not a peep outside of the Christian bible. So in order to believe that Jesus came from the tomb you must believe he in fact ever was placed in a tomb. Since we only have the Christian bible which is full of errors and contradictions all such ‘proof’ is highly suspect. Well since we only have the Old Testament that says the world was created in six days and man was created from mud and woman from mans rib. Does that make it true! You are SO hip on proving everything PROVE that to be true outside the bible.
Truth is you are lacking in faith to believe the Whole plan. You get the first part but when it comes to part TWO you reject it because you can't “PROVE IT”. Well again you can't PROVE that their is a God other than the Old Testament.
If you can't prove that then why should anyone believe in your “proof theory”.We believe in Jesus. You don't because their is no proof. If we go by proof and not faith then their is no Creator!
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 03 2007,08:36) How do you “know” that the Old Testament is 100% “word-for-word correct. You can't because their is nothing to compare it too. It's wonderful that you have Faith in a Creator but you cannot prove it because a bunch of words say so.
I never said that the Jewish scriptures were 100% 'word-for-word' correct. There are errors in it, predominantly the results of copying and recopying for thousands of years.Quote Sure I “believe” the old Testament also but one has to wonder if we had something to compare it too woud it stand up to your expatations?
Speculation is all you have at this point. The fact is that Christianity is based on Judaism but tore Judaism apart and added mythological ideals like deity death-rebirth, virgin birth, drinking blood, 'feeling the spirit', etc. This ideas were borrowed from other polytheistic religions and inserted into 'Judaism Lite' created by Paul the apostate. So while you can speculate until the cows go home you must face the facts that the Christian bible conflicts with the Jewish bible in many things. Since G-d said not to add or take away from His Torah and Christianity has done that in many ways it cannot be of G-d.Quote The New Testament has human mistakes but the main theme is the same through out the book. Then we have the Spirit that gives witness that these things are true. The human mistakes are that they misquoted, twisted, or misapplied Jewish scripture to come up with a new religion based on mythologies and some elements of Judaism.
Quote You openly comdemn the SPIRIT but you are looking at the Catholics and her daughters that the New testament warns us about. Each of us are different and so we all as the New testament writers believe little different but we ALL stand on the same foundation. The house built on that foundation has different rooms not all the same size. The body of the church has different members not all doing the same thing. Though we have the SPIRIT we are still under the influence of the flesh~sin~and IMHO won't be perfect until we shed this old for the New. All use the same Christian bible. You all have the same set of words to read. I get a kick out of Christians who point their fingers at the Catholic church when it was the same Catholic church who put together the canon of your bible.
Quote Quote Common sense to who, people who believe in the Christian bible? To every one else it is not common sense in the slightest. Actually it is not really even common sense to believers it is common belief. Sense has nothing to do with it. No I mean anyone with common sense. I'll bet even Stu wouldn't die for a lie he started.
You still have not told me why Muslims are willing to die for what they believe. So you are saying that what they are doing is not a lie because you can only accept that people will die for the truth.
Quote Quote I disagree. I believe the Tanakh was inspired but I see way too many contradictions in the Christian bible to accept its inspiration. G-d would not inspire people to make that many mistakes. There are many many instances of misquoting the Jewish scriptures and downright twisting them in others. Perhaps God was interested in the Message and not the way it is explained. The message is there and does not change.
Very interesting to say the least. You are now at a point that no matter how many conflicts the Christian bible has with the Jewish bible it is supposed to based on that you still accept it. Is it your fear of hellfire and damnation?
Remember the words of your own savior
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
If the Tanakh testifies of Jesus and the Tanakh is not in agreement that Jesus can be the end times Moshiach then you must be willing to admit that he is not who Christianity says he is. He may be a Christian messiah but he is no Jewish messiah.
Quote Quote That’s an odd argument because no historian records his birth. Only the Christian bible records this and most of it was written by anonymous writers. We cannot even be sure if Paul was real because he does not exist outside of the Christian bible either. And what if one did would that make a difference? You are avoiding the question. Going by “proff” we can't be sure that their is a Creator? Or that the Jews are God's chosen people.
You can't play the 'what if' game because there is nothing to work with. You are getting desperate if you have to retain your faith through 'what ifs'.
You're line of reasoning is seriously flawed. You try to prove Jesus existed by comparing him to G-d whom man has never seen. Christianity claims that thousands of people saw Jesus. Yet none of these thousands recorded him outside of the Christian bible.
As to Israel being G-d's chosen people, to question this would be to question your own savior since he was supposed to be Jewish. When you do that you will lose all faith not just your belief in Jesus. You tread dangerous ground.
Quote IT takes FAITH. Ask an atheist if the world was created in six days. What does the “proof” tell us. Yet you “believe” otherwise, WHY? Yes I have faith that this is true. What historians were around when G-d created the earth? Yet there were thousands of people around who were supposed to have encountered Jesus and no one outside of the Christian bible ever mentioned him. When the real Moshiach comes ALL people will know.
As I have been telling you faith in Jesus as the Jewish Moschiah must be backed by evidence that he met the requirements given
in the Tanakh. He did not. Way too many prophecies unfulfilled. He did not even meet the requirements of lineage so he was invalidated from birth.Quote **** Quote No that is why you were told you would have the Holy Spirit so you’d believe you had the truth. The past 2000 years have shown the fruit of the Christian Holy Spirit.**** Their is your problem. When I received the Holy Spirit I did not even know what was happening to me. I couldn't tell you what the gospels were! I was raise Catholic and Catholics don't like you reading the bible.
I'm SURE I'm not the only one with this experience. SO you couldn't be MORE WRONG! SAD! very SAD! But this is the end time and I'm sure worse is still to come.
You're 'spiritual' experience is repeated by those who follow Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Mormonism, and any other number of religions. What makes your 'spiritual experience' any more valid than theirs? Because you say so? Yet you say all of those people (and the Jewish people too) will burn in hell for not placing their trust in a mythological god-man. You practice the same exclusivism that your mother the Catholic church does.
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