Jesus teaches an implied doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
The spiritual truths expressed by Jesus are unrelated to human logic.
They simply show deeper understandings than we can perceive.
Like God is not the God of the dead but of the living.

The DEAD are those who are at risk of the SECOND DEATH while the LIVING are those reborn of the Living Spirit of God.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2010,16:23)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2010,08:10) Hi KW, Jesus expressed spiritual truths that those of the Spirit understand. No human logic or implication is required. Jesus used human logic to express those truths.  You are lying if you state otherwise.

KW

read again nick does not say what you mean.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2010,19:53)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2010,14:00) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2010,16:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2010,08:10) Hi KW, Jesus expressed spiritual truths that those of the Spirit understand. No human logic or implication is required. Jesus used human logic to express those truths.  You are lying if you state otherwise. Hi KW, Strong words towards those who find logic rather shallow wisdom. Agree or else? You have stange reasoning. In the real world the statement “Jesus used human logic to express those truths.” is either true or false.  It is true and therefore deny what is true is by definition a lie.   Actually I have to correct myself.  It would be an untruth to deny a truth.  In order to be a lie you would have to be deliberately presenting an untruth as true. I do not have a reasonable doubt that you cannot regonize a logical argument when you read one and the argument Jesus used was definately logical.  It was not even the esoteric logic that Matthew uses at times. I can see you being in self-denial which is rather a common action for human beings.   You would still be lying but you would not be aware of it.  That is probably the case. What ever the case though if we cannot have an honest discussion then I do not see how the discussion can progress.

KW

Christ used mainly imagery,metaphors,parable with relate human behavior,

are reffer to those as human logic

[942767]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2010,16:39)

Marty, I merely at this time am makeing the point that God is not always explicit in what he teaches.   He expects us to understand him none the less.  The way we learn is to submit ourselves to him as we seek him in other ways as well. In this way I hope to remove obstacles from the path of others as they seek God.

Hi Kerwin:

Some things are spiritually discerned in the wisdom of God. It is through obedience to God's Word, study of God's Word, and prayer and trials of our faith that we gain revelation knowledge those things,

Love in Christ,
Marty

[kerwin]

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 26 2010,04:55)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2010,16:39) Marty, I merely at this time am making the point that God is not always explicit in what he teaches.   He expects us to understand him none the less.  The way we learn is to submit ourselves to him as we seek him in other ways as well. In this way I hope to remove obstacles from the path of others as they seek God. Hi Kerwin: Some things are spiritually discerned in the wisdom of God.  It is through obedience to God's Word, study of God's Word, and prayer and trials of our faith that we gain revelation knowledge those things, Love in Christ, Marty

Do you mean some things are discerned by intuition as “spiritual discerned” can take many paths that all rely on believing what God states?

Let's take the example of the lesson Jesus gave which was about the implications of Exodus 3:6.  Those that believe Jesus believed because they were inspired to believe him.  At least some of them were inspired by their desire to seek God even though logic was used.  Logic is just a teaching tool and Jesus shows us how a well qualified teacher of God uses it.   He uses it in other places as well.

I also believe some people know intuitively but other times reason is necessary or it would not be used by Jesus and others.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 26 2010,03:42)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2010,19:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2010,14:00) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2010,16:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2010,08:10) Hi KW, Jesus expressed spiritual truths that those of the Spirit understand. No human logic or implication is required. Jesus used human logic to express those truths.  You are lying if you state otherwise. Hi KW, Strong words towards those who find logic rather shallow wisdom. Agree or else? You have stange reasoning. In the real world the statement “Jesus used human logic to express those truths.” is either true or false.  It is true and therefore deny what is true is by definition a lie.   Actually I have to correct myself.  It would be an untruth to deny a truth.  In order to be a lie you would have to be deliberately presenting an untruth as true. I do not have a reasonable doubt that you cannot regonize a logical argument when you read one and the argument Jesus used was definately logical.  It was not even the esoteric logic that Matthew uses at times. I can see you being in self-denial which is rather a common action for human beings.   You would still be lying but you would not be aware of it.  That is probably the case. What ever the case though if we cannot have an honest discussion then I do not see how the discussion can progress. KW Christ used mainly imagery,metaphors,parable with relate human behavior, are refer to those as human logic

I am referring to logic as human logic.  It is incorrect because God uses logic as he reasons with us.   I used it the way I did because Nick chose to use it incorrectly and I was making a point.  I am sorry if that usage confused you.

Logic is structured like this.  Since Premise 1 which is that scripture states God is the God of several dead individuals is true and Premise 2 which is that God is not the God of the dead therefore the dead must not stay dead.

Some Christians condemn logic not realizing that it is often used in scripture so they condemn the very scriptures they claim to go by.

Logic is not a sin and nowhere in scripture does it say it is.

But I agree that Jesus is also known to be esoteric in his teachings; which is an aspect of Jewish mysticism and Jesus was and is a Jew.

[942767]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 26 2010,11:21)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 26 2010,04:55) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2010,16:39) Marty, I merely at this time am making the point that God is not always explicit in what he teaches.   He expects us to understand him none the less.  The way we learn is to submit ourselves to him as we seek him in other ways as well. In this way I hope to remove obstacles from the path of others as they seek God. Hi Kerwin: Some things are spiritually discerned in the wisdom of God.  It is through obedience to God's Word, study of God's Word, and prayer and trials of our faith that we gain revelation knowledge those things, Love in Christ, Marty Do you mean some things are discerned by intuition as “spiritual discerned” can take many paths that all rely on believing what God states? Let's take the example of the lesson Jesus gave which was about the implications of Exodus 3:6.  Those that believe Jesus believed because they were inspired to believe him.  At least some of them were inspired by their desire to seek God even though logic was used.  Logic is just a teaching tool and Jesus shows us how a well qualified teacher of God uses it.   He uses it in other places as well. I also believe some people know intuitively but other times reason is necessary or it would not be used by Jesus and others.

Hi Kerwin:

I mean spiritually discerned like this:

Quote

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Quote

Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Quote

Daniel 12:8And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Quote

4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 26 2010,11:31)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 26 2010,03:42) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2010,19:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2010,14:00) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2010,16:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2010,08:10) Hi KW, Jesus expressed spiritual truths that those of the Spirit understand. No human logic or implication is required. Jesus used human logic to express those truths.  You are lying if you state otherwise. Hi KW, Strong words towards those who find logic rather shallow wisdom. Agree or else? You have stange reasoning. In the real world the statement “Jesus used human logic to express those truths.” is either true or false.  It is true and therefore deny what is true is by definition a lie.   Actually I have to correct myself.  It would be an untruth to deny a truth.  In order to be a lie you would have to be deliberately presenting an untruth as true. I do not have a reasonable doubt that you cannot regonize a logical argument when you read one and the argument Jesus used was definately logical.  It was not even the esoteric logic that Matthew uses at times. I can see you being in self-denial which is rather a common action for human beings.   You would still be lying but you would not be aware of it.  That is probably the case. What ever the case though if we cannot have an honest discussion then I do not see how the discussion can progress. KW Christ used mainly imagery,metaphors,parable with relate human behavior, are refer to those as human logic I am referring to logic as human logic.  It is incorrect because God uses logic as he reasons with us.   I used it the way I did because Nick chose to use it incorrectly and I was making a point.  I am sorry if that usage confused you. Logic is structured like this.  Since Premise 1 which is that scripture states God is the God of several dead individuals is true and Premise 2 which is that God is not the God of the dead therefore the dead must not stay dead. Some Christians condemn logic not realizing that it is often used in scripture so they condemn the very scriptures they claim to go by. Logic is not a sin and nowhere in scripture does it say it is. But I agree that Jesus is also known to be esoteric in his teachings; which is an aspect of Jewish mysticism and Jesus was and is a Jew.

Hi KW,
Your weak logic premises are limited by human understanding.
You need the Spirit to grasp the things of God.[1Cor2]
Why would you limit God to your understanding?

[kerwin]

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 26 2010,07:05)

Hi Kerwin: I mean spiritually discerned like this: Quote 1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Quote Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. Quote Daniel 12:8And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. Quote 4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,

In Luke 20:41-44 we have another example of Jesus using logic.

He does this by pointing out that in scripture King David calls the anointed one Lord.

The second premise which is implied sounds like it is that a father does not call his son Lord.

His conclusion is “David calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?” “

I admit that I believe I am missing some of the context of this passage as scripture itself states Jesus is the Son of David. Still, I believe if I knew all I need to that I would find Jesus' argument about the Anointed One both sound and valid.

Though this still remains a mystery to me, Jesus was using logic to reveal some of mystery of the Anointed One to those he was teaching at that time.

[princess of the king]

Kerwin,

Recently I listen to a sermon in regards to one's ego, the speaker stated:

We take our own consciousness and perceive a deity, which becomes a bigger form of ourselves, our emotions are not sanctified just magnified.

Our ego being mainly pride, focusing on ourselves and our beliefs then listening to another and actually hearing what the other is saying.

What one may say is out of an what I call an 'unteachable spirit', one that has stop searching, seeking.

Some are satisfied in where they stand at the path, others keep seeking and searching for the divine truth, not just what has been placed in front of them.

We need the logos, sophia and pistis to acheive our destination.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
Wisdom indeed stands at the streetcorner calling out to men.
Wisdom was at God's side when He was creating so is imbued throughout creation.
It is ingrained in a simple way every aspect of creation and is as commonsense in our approach to life.

But the wisdom even of the created world is not the depths of the wisdom of God.
Scripture gives us a glimpse but the Spirit of God can take us deeper.[1Cor2]
The thoughts of God are far greater than the logic and inferences of men.

[942767]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 26 2010,12:32)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 26 2010,07:05) Hi Kerwin: I mean spiritually discerned like this: Quote 1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Quote Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. Quote Daniel 12:8And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. Quote 4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, In Luke 20:41-44 we have another example of Jesus using logic. He does this by pointing out that in scripture King David calls the anointed one Lord. The second premise which is implied sounds like it is that a father does not call his son Lord. His conclusion is “David calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?” “ I admit that I believe I am missing some of the context of this passage as scripture itself states Jesus is the Son of David.  Still, I believe if I knew all I need to that I would find Jesus' argument about the Anointed One both sound and valid. Though this still remains a mystery to me, Jesus was using logic to reveal some of mystery of the Anointed One to those he was teaching at that time.

Hi Kerwin:

The Jews were expecting someone that would come and restore Israel to them whose biological father would be a male descendant of King David, but Jesus is referring to Psalm 110 where David in speaking by the Holy Spirit calls Jesus his Lord, and by this he was indicating that this was proof that he was the Son of God.

But the Psalm says, “The LORD” said unto my Lord sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool, and so it implies a resurrection from the dead coupled that in another Psalm David by the Spirit says:

Quote

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Psalm 16:9-11 (in

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
Jesus loved confounding the logic of the blind.

[kerwin]

Marty.

You make a good point about Psalms 16:10 using logic. I believe Acts 2 records that Peter also used logic in regards to that passage.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
God uses every possible means to reach out to men.
To those bound by human wisdom he even uses their tools.
Paul became as a jew to the jews and a gentile to the gentiles

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 26 2010,13:56)

Marty. You make a good point about Psalms 16:10 using logic.  I believe Acts 2 records that Peter also used logic in regards to that passage.

KW

Ps 18:26 to the pure you show yourself pure,
but to the crooked you show yourself shrewd

Mt 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 26 2010,10:44)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 26 2010,13:56) Marty. You make a good point about Psalms 16:10 using logic.  I believe Acts 2 records that Peter also used logic in regards to that passage. KW Ps 18:26 to the pure you show yourself pure, but to the crooked you show yourself shrewd Mt 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

I agree that Jesus was as wise as a serpent and as innocent when he chose to use logic based on godly principles to refrute the false tenet of the Sadducees. In this he was once again an example he teaches his students to do.

[kerwin]

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

To those bound by human wisdom he even uses their tools.

You still fail to understand what is human wisdom and what is godly wisdome. What makes wisdom, or logic, for that matter earther “human” or godly is the principles upon which it is based. If it is based on the principles of the spirit of holiness then it is godly but if it is not based fully on those principles it is not godly reasoning.

It is my hope you do come to understand.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
Do you think your justifications of the use of human logic in dealing with spiritual matter are sufficient?

[kerwin]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2010,13:52)

Hi KW, Do you think your justifications of the use of human logic in dealing with spiritual matter are sufficient?

When you agree with God on what human logic is then I can answer your question. Until then we are speaking on seperate planes.

[Author]

Posts