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Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 24 2007,10:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2007,15:05) Hi Tow,
Ex 8
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, Go unto Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Let my people go, that they may serve me.2And if thou refuse to let them go, behold, I will smite all thy borders with frogs:
3And the river shall bring forth frogs abundantly, which shall go up and come into thine house, and into thy bedchamber, and upon thy bed, and into the house of thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thine ovens, and into thy kneadingtroughs:
4And the frogs shall come up both on thee, and upon thy people, and upon all thy servants.
5And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch forth thine hand with thy rod over the streams, over the rivers, and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up upon the land of Egypt.
6And Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt; and the frogs came up, and covered the land of Egypt.
7And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.
So God told Moses to do a miracle and the magicians did the same.
Which, if any, of these written facts can you believe?
Can you imagine David Copperfield going back in time? There's your answer.
Hi Tow,
My answer or yours?
You would make God a liar?Sorry Nick, G-d did not write scripture, men did. Men can lie. If G-d had written scripture there would be no doubting it yet men did indeed write scripture. Do you accept Koran? Book of Mormon? Why not? They claim it was inspired of G-d too. So you must accept these as truth as well because they are written and claimed to be inspired of G-d.
Hi Tow,
God did write it, through men, and through the Christ and the prophets He spoke and acted.2 Samuel 23:2
2″(A)The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me,
And His word was on my tongue.2Peter1
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
But then you need faith to receive even these words.
Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 24 2007,06:55) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 23 2007,12:59) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 23 2007,15:46) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 22 2007,21:41) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 23 2007,13:33) Sorry but what you have stated is merely your own opinion of things. Since you believe that the GT is 100% true, can you please drink a cup of Drano and handle some snakes? I would like to see if you are a true believer.
Or, maybe he could turn the stones into bread or jump off of the pinnicale of the temple to prove to you that he is a believer?
Nah, that was Jesus, but he DID say this:Joh 14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.
Lets' see…since Jesus healed and raised the dead, then I would expect that, according to Jesus' own words, those who believe in him would be able to do the same if not more. So, which Christian on this board has ever raised some from the dead? Walked on water? Healed a blind man? Cured leprosy? Turned water into wine? Calmed a storm?
Hi Tow:The point is that neither Jesus nor we who are his disciples have to prove anything to anybody. I have a personal relationship with God and I call him Father. You should see the love of God manifest through our lives if we are Christians. That should be sufficient proof.
I understand you have nothing to prove, but Jesus said these things WOULD happen, not that they would happen just to prove. He said “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do“. He didn't say maybe, he said it WOULD happen. He also said
========================
Mar 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
Mar 16:18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
========================This was said positively, not as a 'maybe' statement. Jesus said those would be the signs of the ones who believe. How many demons have you cast out, how many have you healed by laying on hands, how many serpents have you handled?
Quote Regarding drinking drano or picking up serpents, the scripture states: “Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God”.
No tempting, Jesus said that this would be a sign of a true believer. The poison statement is and 'if' one, but there was no 'if' associated with healing, handling snakes, casting out demons. I realize there are some who speak in new tongues but this typically is someone speaking gibberish that they make up to try to look 'spiritual'.Quote Also, there is some question as to whether the verse of scripture that talks about drinking deadly things or picking up serpents was in the original manuscipts. Yes, but what do you do with the John 14:12 verse that is not in doubt as to validity?
Quote There is the following verse of scripture: Quote Acts 28
1 And when they were escaped, then they knew that the island was called Melita. 2 And the barbarous people shewed us no little kindness: for they kindled a fire, and received us every one, because of the present rain, and because of the cold. 3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand. 4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live. 5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm. 6 Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god
So only one instance of fulfilling this, and again found in the unverified GT. Again, proving Harry Potter with Harry Potter.
Quote In his physical ministry on earth Jesus was limited because the Holy Spirit was not given to his disciples until he was glorified, but since his resurrection and ascension to the right hand of God, the Holy Spirit operates in all born again believers, and therfore, he said that we do the same works than he and “greater works” (more of them). There are born again believers throughout the world. So who's out there raising the dead, calming storms, healing lepers, and casting out demons?
Quote However, these works are accomplished by the whole church working together to accomplish the “end result” and that is the salvation of God's children from the consequence of sin. Not every member has the same talents or spiritual gifts. I guess the ability to heal, raise the dead, walk on water, calm storms, feed 5000 with a few fish and loafs were taken away after the GT. How convenient for you.
Quote Quote 1 Corinthians 12 –
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Sp
irit of God calleth Jesus accursed: F41 and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, F42 but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, F43 whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow F44 more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25 That there should be no schism F45 in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities F46 of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way
During the past 13 years I have shared the gospel in a street ministry using a trac that I prepared. I have shared this trac with people from 54 different countries along with a multitude of others. I know of three people who have been saved by virture of this ministry. There may be others who have been saved as well but only three of which I have knowledge. Those who have been saved through my ministry were spiritually dead or separated from God because of sin, and so in essence when they were born again, they were raised from the dead (by God)to the newness of life. This is the most important work that can possibly be done as disciples of Christ.
So when Jesus raised dead people like Lazarus, he only did so symbolically? Lazarus was only spiritually dead for 4 days?Basically though, what you say about 'converting' people (which in Christianity is just a decision and that's it) can be compared to a salesman selling a product. If the salesman can convince someone to buy something they were not originally going to buy, then they have accomplished the same feat as you have by 'selling' Jesus.
Hi Tow:I notice that you read a portion of my post and respond and then another portion of my post and then respond etc. without reading the whole thing. I've already answered your questions.
The healing of Lazarus was both literal and symbolic.
I cannot convert anyone. My commission is to share the gospel which is good news with whomever will hear. If they choose to believe and come to God with a repentant heart, they will know if the message that I a preaching is the truth or a lie. If God confirms the message by baptizing the believer with the Holy Spirit then He has said that I what I am preaching is the truth regardless of what you or anyone else might say.
Hi Tow,
If anything touched by man is contaminated and unreliable
then why have you continued to quote scripture to us?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2007,18:51) Hi Tow,
God did write it, through men, and through the Christ and the prophets He spoke and acted.2 Samuel 23:2
2″(A)The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me,
And His word was on my tongue.2Peter1
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
But then you need faith to receive even these words.
What makes Christ greater than Mohammed? Joseph Smith?Quote (942767 @ Dec. 23 2007,18:57) Hi Tow: I notice that you read a portion of my post and respond and then another portion of my post and then respond etc. without reading the whole thing. I've already answered your questions.
The healing of Lazarus was both literal and symbolic.
Why both? So you can cover both in case you are wrong about one?
Quote I cannot convert anyone. My commission is to share the gospel which is good news with whomever will hear. If they choose to believe and come to God with a repentant heart, they will know if the message that I a preaching is the truth or a lie.
You sad come to G-d, not Jesus. So you admit Jesus is not nessicery.Quote If God confirms the message by baptizing the believer with the Holy Spirit then He has said that I what I am preaching is the truth regardless of what you or anyone else might say.
Amazing, no Jesus in that anywhere.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2007,19:03) Hi Tow,
If anything touched by man is contaminated and unreliable
then why have you continued to quote scripture to us?
That's easy: because YOU accept OT and GT as 100% true, I can use that as your stumbling block.Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 24 2007,13:35) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 23 2007,18:57) Hi Tow: I notice that you read a portion of my post and respond and then another portion of my post and then respond etc. without reading the whole thing. I've already answered your questions.
The healing of Lazarus was both literal and symbolic.
Why both? So you can cover both in case you are wrong about one?
Quote I cannot convert anyone. My commission is to share the gospel which is good news with whomever will hear. If they choose to believe and come to God with a repentant heart, they will know if the message that I a preaching is the truth or a lie.
You sad come to G-d, not Jesus. So you admit Jesus is not nessicery.Quote If God confirms the message by baptizing the believer with the Holy Spirit then He has said that I what I am preaching is the truth regardless of what you or anyone else might say.
Amazing, no Jesus in that anywhere.
Hi Tow:I said:
The healing of Lazarus was both literal and symbolic.
And you ask:
Quote Why both? So you can cover both in case you are wrong about one? Both, because it is the truth.
And,
Jesus has stated:
Quote John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. And so, whether or not I mentioned Jesus in my previous post relative to those who come to God with a repentant heart for salvation, perhaps the forgoing scripture will assure you that I know that no man can saved except through him.
Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 24 2007,13:37) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2007,19:03) Hi Tow,
If anything touched by man is contaminated and unreliable
then why have you continued to quote scripture to us?
That's easy: because YOU accept OT and GT as 100% true, I can use that as your stumbling block.
Hi Tow,
Are the psalms true?Try 12, 19 and 119.Quote (942767 @ Dec. 23 2007,21:06) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 24 2007,13:35) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 23 2007,18:57) Hi Tow: I notice that you read a portion of my post and respond and then another portion of my post and then respond etc. without reading the whole thing. I've already answered your questions.
The healing of Lazarus was both literal and symbolic.
Why both? So you can cover both in case you are wrong about one?
Quote I cannot convert anyone. My commission is to share the gospel which is good news with whomever will hear. If they choose to believe and come to God with a repentant heart, they will know if the message that I a preaching is the truth or a lie.
You sad come to G-d, not Jesus. So you admit Jesus is not nessicery.Quote If God confirms the message by baptizing the believer with the Holy Spirit then He has said that I what I am preaching is the truth regardless of what you or anyone else might say.
Amazing, no Jesus in that anywhere.
Hi Tow:I said:
The healing of Lazarus was both literal and symbolic.
And you ask:
Quote Why both? So you can cover both in case you are wrong about one? Both, because it is the truth.[/quote]
Where is your proof that it is true? Because you believe so? Yes, then, in your imagination, it is true.
Quote And, Jesus has stated:
John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
And so, whether or not I mentioned Jesus in my previous post relative to those who come to God with a repentant heart for salvation, perhaps the forgoing scripture will assure you that I know that no man can saved except through him.
So G-d decided to wait 4000 years to give Jesus? Why do you think G-d was so cold towards the men before Jesus and waited so long to give mankind redemption?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2007,22:06) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 24 2007,13:37) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2007,19:03) Hi Tow,
If anything touched by man is contaminated and unreliable
then why have you continued to quote scripture to us?
That's easy: because YOU accept OT and GT as 100% true, I can use that as your stumbling block.
Hi Tow,
Are the psalms true?Try 12, 19 and 119.
Psalms are songs of praise and similar works. They are as true as poems and songs are today.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2007,22:07) Hi Tow,
There is a stumbling block in scripture and a rock of offense.
The Lord Jesus Christ
Not a stumbling block, a crumbling cookie.Hi Tow,
Not at all.
The Sons of Israel were given their chance to inherit salvation.
Christ opened the door for all fulfilling perfectly the Law and offering all men salvation through him.
Since John the baptist all men could force their way in.
Then Christ preached even to the souls in prison.
One way.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2007,23:07) Hi Tow,
Not at all.
The Sons of Israel were given their chance to inherit salvation.
Christ opened the door for all fulfilling perfectly the Law and offering all men salvation through him.
Since John the baptist all men could force their way in.
Then Christ preached even to the souls in prison.
One way.
But where do you see your supposed Christ prophesied in Tanakh? Did G-d spring him at the last minute?HI Tow,
Should he have come as a king then?
Does God have to meet your expectations or cannot the truth be veiled from the blind in faith?
He came to initiate his kingdom in search of subjects and servants of God and those who knew God recognised Him in the Son.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2007,23:17) HI Tow,
Should he have come as a king then?If he was supposed to be King Messiah, yes.
Quote Does God have to meet your expectations or cannot the truth be veiled from the blind in faith? No, G-d has given prophecies in Tanakh which Jesus never met. You are saying that we must thrown Tanakh away because it did not speak of Jesus thus it is worthless.
Quote He came to initiate his kingdom in search of subjects and servants of God and those who knew God recognised Him in the Son.
Pagan.
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