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Hi Tow,
So if one christian was used of God to heal someone you would be convinced Christ is the Messiah?
Don't make me laugh.
You would find a million reasons why it did not happen and could not happen because you hate God..
You do not even believe the miracles of the OT.
Why should you believe even if someone rose from the dead?[Lk16]Nope, sorry Nick. Your Jesus said that those that believe would be able to do greater works than him. Since no one has raised a person from the dead (besides a doctor), I'm guessing no one has believed. All of those billions of people calling themselves Christians, and all lost. That includes you too by the way.
I encourage you to hang out at your local hospital. When someone flatlines, step in a recusitate them with prayer or just a word of authority. If you can't then according to Jesus, you are not a believer.
Hi Tow,
Why should you be impressed?
You do not even believe the miracles recorded in the OT.
Your religion does not even know an awesome God of power.What, sidestepping Nick? Please provide verifiable evidence that you have done works even coming close to that of Jesus. If you cannot, then according to Jesus, you are not a believer. Where is your faith Nick? Must be very, very, very, weak.
Hi tow,
My role in the body of Christ is not as a fulltime miracle worker.
I have a much more humble role.
You should serve our God too.
A weak and impotent god unable to perform miracles such as yours is not a lot of help.Well, judging from the fact that there has been no documented cases of a real faith healing or someone being raised from the dead, your god must be every bit as impotent of the G-d I serve.
But you say you are not a 'fulltime' miracle worker. Part-time? One single time? If you have not performed at least one verifiable, documented miracle, then according to the words of Jesus, you are not a believer.
Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 23 2007,15:46) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 22 2007,21:41) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 23 2007,13:33) Sorry but what you have stated is merely your own opinion of things. Since you believe that the GT is 100% true, can you please drink a cup of Drano and handle some snakes? I would like to see if you are a true believer.
Or, maybe he could turn the stones into bread or jump off of the pinnicale of the temple to prove to you that he is a believer?
Nah, that was Jesus, but he DID say this:Joh 14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.
Lets' see…since Jesus healed and raised the dead, then I would expect that, according to Jesus' own words, those who believe in him would be able to do the same if not more. So, which Christian on this board has ever raised some from the dead? Walked on water? Healed a blind man? Cured leprosy? Turned water into wine? Calmed a storm?
Hi Tow:The point is that neither Jesus nor we who are his disciples have to prove anything to anybody. I have a personal relationship with God and I call him Father. You should see the love of God manifest through our lives if we are Christians. That should be sufficient proof.
Regarding drinking drano or picking up serpents, the scripture states: “Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God”.
Also, there is some question as to whether the verse of scripture that talks about drinking deadly things or picking up serpents was in the original manuscipts.
There is the following verse of scripture:
Quote Acts 28
1 And when they were escaped, then they knew that the island was called Melita. 2 And the barbarous people shewed us no little kindness: for they kindled a fire, and received us every one, because of the present rain, and because of the cold. 3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand. 4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live. 5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm. 6 Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god
In his physical ministry on earth Jesus was limited because the Holy Spirit was not given to his disciples until he was glorified, but since his resurrection and ascension to the right hand of God, the Holy Spirit operates in all born again believers, and therfore, he said that we do the same works than he and “greater works” (more of them). There are born again believers throughout the world.
However, these works are accomplished by the whole church working together to accomplish the “end result” and that is the salvation of God's children from the consequence of sin. Not every member has the same talents or spiritual gifts.
Quote 1 Corinthians 12 –
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: F41 and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, F42 but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, F43 whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow F44 more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25 That there should be no schism F45 in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities F46 of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way
During the past 13 years I have shared the gospel in a street ministry using a trac that I prepared. I have shared this trac with people from 54 different countries along with a multitude of others. I know of three people who have been saved by virture of this ministry. There may be others who have been saved as well but only three of which I have knowledge. Those who have been saved through my ministry were spiritually dead or separated from God b
ecause of sin, and so in essence when they were born again, they were raised from the dead (by God)to the newness of life. This is the most important work that can possibly be done as disciples of Christ.Hi 94,
Yes one of the most amazing aspect of scripture is that despite the weak human vessels God did His will and enabled the perfect recording of how He performed His worksQuote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2007,11:31) Hi Tow,
The God I serve has his works recorded in the OT and the NT for those who would believe.
Which god though? The OT is about YHVH, the GT is about Jesus and his father, who is only known as 'god the father'. Since YHVH is not in the GT, and since virgin birth, human sacrifice, drinking blood, resurrection for eternal life, etc are foreign to the pages of Tanakh, are you saying you server two gods? YHVH said to have no other gods before him so I'd be careful.Hi Tow,
Your rejection of Messiah Jesus, our Lord and the Son of the God we worship, is well recorded here, so turning instead to the miracles of God in the OT why can you not accept they can be and were done by our God?Quote (942767 @ Dec. 23 2007,12:59) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 23 2007,15:46) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 22 2007,21:41) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 23 2007,13:33) Sorry but what you have stated is merely your own opinion of things. Since you believe that the GT is 100% true, can you please drink a cup of Drano and handle some snakes? I would like to see if you are a true believer.
Or, maybe he could turn the stones into bread or jump off of the pinnicale of the temple to prove to you that he is a believer?
Nah, that was Jesus, but he DID say this:Joh 14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.
Lets' see…since Jesus healed and raised the dead, then I would expect that, according to Jesus' own words, those who believe in him would be able to do the same if not more. So, which Christian on this board has ever raised some from the dead? Walked on water? Healed a blind man? Cured leprosy? Turned water into wine? Calmed a storm?
Hi Tow:The point is that neither Jesus nor we who are his disciples have to prove anything to anybody. I have a personal relationship with God and I call him Father. You should see the love of God manifest through our lives if we are Christians. That should be sufficient proof.
I understand you have nothing to prove, but Jesus said these things WOULD happen, not that they would happen just to prove. He said “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do“. He didn't say maybe, he said it WOULD happen. He also said
========================
Mar 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
Mar 16:18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
========================This was said positively, not as a 'maybe' statement. Jesus said those would be the signs of the ones who believe. How many demons have you cast out, how many have you healed by laying on hands, how many serpents have you handled?
Quote Regarding drinking drano or picking up serpents, the scripture states: “Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God”.
No tempting, Jesus said that this would be a sign of a true believer. The poison statement is and 'if' one, but there was no 'if' associated with healing, handling snakes, casting out demons. I realize there are some who speak in new tongues but this typically is someone speaking gibberish that they make up to try to look 'spiritual'.Quote Also, there is some question as to whether the verse of scripture that talks about drinking deadly things or picking up serpents was in the original manuscipts. Yes, but what do you do with the John 14:12 verse that is not in doubt as to validity?
Quote There is the following verse of scripture: Quote Acts 28 1 And when they were escaped, then they knew that the island was called Melita. 2 And the barbarous people shewed us no little kindness: for they kindled a fire, and received us every one, because of the present rain, and because of the cold. 3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand. 4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live. 5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm. 6 Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god
So only one instance of fulfilling this, and again found in the unverified GT. Again, proving Harry Potter with Harry Potter.
Quote In his physical ministry on earth Jesus was limited because the Holy Spirit was not given to his disciples until he was glorified, but since his resurrection and ascension to the right hand of God, the Holy Spirit operates in all born again believers, and therfore, he said that we do the same works than he and “greater works” (more of them). There are born again believers throughout the world. So who's out there raising the dead, calming storms, healing lepers, and casting out demons?
Quote However, these works are accomplished by the whole church working together to accomplish the “end result” and that is the salvation of God's children from the consequence of sin. Not every member has the same talents or spiritual gifts. I guess the ability to heal, raise the dead, walk on water, calm storms, feed 5000 with a few fish and loafs were taken away after the GT. How convenient for you.
Quote Quote 1 Corinthians 12 – 1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: F41 and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, F42 but the
same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, F43 whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow F44 more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25 That there should be no schism F45 in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities F46 of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way
During the past 13 years I have shared the gospel in a street ministry using a trac that I prepared. I have shared this trac with people from 54 different countries along with a multitude of others. I know of three people who have been saved by virture of this ministry. There may be others who have been saved as well but only three of which I have knowledge. Those who have been saved through my ministry were spiritually dead or separated from God because of sin, and so in essence when they were born again, they were raised from the dead (by God)to the newness of life. This is the most important work that can possibly be done as disciples of Christ.
So when Jesus raised dead people like Lazarus, he only did so symbolically? Lazarus was only spiritually dead for 4 days?Basically though, what you say about 'converting' people (which in Christianity is just a decision and that's it) can be compared to a salesman selling a product. If the salesman can convince someone to buy something they were not originally going to buy, then they have accomplished the same feat as you have by 'selling' Jesus.
Hi Tow,
And while we are on the subject of the thread Satan is recorded in scripture as having powers too. Do you also not believe this is true?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2007,13:46) Hi Tow,
Your rejection of Messiah Jesus, our Lord and the Son of the God we worship, is well recorded here, so turning instead to the miracles of God in the OT why can you not accept they can be and were done by our God?
Because I can read of the same feats in any work of fantasy fiction. What makes the feats carried out by powerful wizards in these books any less real? Because we know that they come from fictional works. Yet people accept the same caliber of supposed feats that have never been proven as real because they come from scripture.You figure it out.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2007,13:56) Hi Tow,
And while we are on the subject of the thread Satan is recorded in scripture as having powers too. Do you also not believe this is true?
I think you know the answer to that since a literal satan is not even supported in Tanakh.Hi Tow,
Ex 8
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, Go unto Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Let my people go, that they may serve me.2And if thou refuse to let them go, behold, I will smite all thy borders with frogs:
3And the river shall bring forth frogs abundantly, which shall go up and come into thine house, and into thy bedchamber, and upon thy bed, and into the house of thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thine ovens, and into thy kneadingtroughs:
4And the frogs shall come up both on thee, and upon thy people, and upon all thy servants.
5And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch forth thine hand with thy rod over the streams, over the rivers, and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up upon the land of Egypt.
6And Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt; and the frogs came up, and covered the land of Egypt.
7And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.
So God told Moses to do a miracle and the magicians did the same.
Which, if any, of these written facts can you believe?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2007,14:11) Hi Tow,
So the book of Job has got the old heave ho?
There is a great message in Job. But I wonder, since none have ascended into heaven, who had access to the throne room of G-d to relate the part of the adversary coming before G-d? This is much deeper than your literal interpretation goes.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2007,15:05) Hi Tow,
Ex 8
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, Go unto Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Let my people go, that they may serve me.2And if thou refuse to let them go, behold, I will smite all thy borders with frogs:
3And the river shall bring forth frogs abundantly, which shall go up and come into thine house, and into thy bedchamber, and upon thy bed, and into the house of thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thine ovens, and into thy kneadingtroughs:
4And the frogs shall come up both on thee, and upon thy people, and upon all thy servants.
5And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch forth thine hand with thy rod over the streams, over the rivers, and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up upon the land of Egypt.
6And Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt; and the frogs came up, and covered the land of Egypt.
7And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.
So God told Moses to do a miracle and the magicians did the same.
Which, if any, of these written facts can you believe?
Can you imagine David Copperfield going back in time? There's your answer.Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 24 2007,10:55) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2007,14:11) Hi Tow,
So the book of Job has got the old heave ho?
There is a great message in Job. But I wonder, since none have ascended into heaven, who had access to the throne room of G-d to relate the part of the adversary coming before G-d? This is much deeper than your literal interpretation goes.
Hi Tow,
Should we allegorise what we cannot accept at face value?
Hoew can we learn from scripture if it is us who decides what is true?
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