Jesus not the only true god/ jesus tells who is

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ April 22 2009,17:51)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2009,12:32)

Hi KW,
If your Jesus was a philosopher he was another Jesus.2cor11

The Son of God had no time to waste with such human follies.

So you choose to condemn Jesus with Paul. It makes sense for the one that condemns the student also condemns the teacher. Repent of your bias that depends on the traditions of men and look to God.

Dictionary.com Unabridged Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009 reads:

Quote

1) the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct.

…

So is your Jesus irrational or does he perhaps not seek out(reveal) the truths and principles of God?

phi·los·o·phy (f-ls-f) KEY

NOUN:
pl. phi·los·o·phies
Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.

We are all well aware how God feels about wisdom and Jesus even taught us to be wise.

Matthew 10:15-17 (King James Version)

16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Solomon was a spiritual philosopher

In-fact that is the whole point of Proverbs.

April 22, 2009 at 8:27 pm#128543

Participant

Quote (epistemaniac @ April 22 2009,15:17)

Quote (bodhitharta @ April 17 2009,16:43)

Quote (epistemaniac @ April 17 2009,04:34)

nope… Jesus DID NOT say that

Quote

THEE ONLY TRUE GOD

if for no other reason than that Jesus did not speak Elizabethan English 😉

since the bible elsewhere says that Jesus is God, (Heb. 1:8; Titus 1:3-4, etc etc), then the Bible teaches a contradiction (polytheism) by insisting that there is only one true God, yet it also commands us to believe on Jesus who, being “god”, and who, if He is not the one true God, He must therefore be a false God, or you have the doctrine of the Trinity which resolves this issue by saying that God the Father and God the Son are one in essence, together with the Holy Spirit. One God, three in person..

Nowhere are the attributes of God assigned to mere human judges, so the comparison with the way that the word “god” is used of Jesus is not a comparison of like to like, but is instead apples to oranges. God does not require us to believe on the name of any human judge in order to be saved, nowhere does the bible say that any human judge was sinless, deserved to be worshiped with the worship due to God alone, nowhere do these judges claim for themselves the ability to forgive sins committed against God, nowhere did they ever claim the ability to raise themselves from the dead, nowhere do these human judges speak of being able to know the hearts of men, as it is of Jesus Christ… an attribute belonging to God alone… and on and on it could go…. this is an example of the type of fallacy in the other thread by the same OP called a faulty analogy…. “In an analogy, two objects (or events), A and B are shown to be similar. Then it is argued that since A has property P, so also B must have property P. An analogy fails when the two objects, A and B, are different in a way which affects whether they both have property P.”

Human judges are relevantly dissimilar, therefore just because human judges are called “god” and the same is said of Jesus, it does not follow that they are called “god” in the exact same way.

blessings,
ken

Thee or the is not the point ONLY and TRUE is the point.

Titus 1:3-4
4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith:

Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ[a] our Savior.

Notice the scripture says GOD the Father and the “Lord” Jesus Christ.

Just so everyone here knows and understands the word Lord does not ever mean God it simply means Master or Owner or possesor just as those who rent apartments have Landlords

I hope you don't worship your landlord although being nice to them is a Godly thing to be.

consider that “God” means Supreme being then that being said The Father is The Most High in Supremity and there for the Onlu True Supreme Being.

apparently you are unaware that kyrios translates the name of God (Yahweh/Jehovah) in the LXX…. but I can't blame you for your ignorance, hopefully it does not continue… after the followng information is given to you, there is no exceuse for your ignorance to continue….

(g) kyrios is the Sept. and NT representative of Heb. Jehovah ('Lord' in Eng. versions), see Matt. 4:7; Jas. 5:11, e.g., of adon, Lord, Matt. 22:44, and of Adonay, Lord, Matt. 1:22; it also occurs for Elohim, God, 1 Pet. 1:25.
“Thus the usage of the word in the NT follows two main lines: one– a-f, customary and general, the other, g, peculiar to the Jews, and drawn from the Greek translation of the OT.
“Christ Himself assumed the title, Matt. 7:21, 22; Matt. 9:38; Matt. 22:41-45; Mark 5:19 (cp. Psa. 66:16; the parallel passage, Luke 8:39, has 'God'); Luke 19:31; John 13:13, apparently intending it in the higher senses of its current use, and at the same time suggesting its OT associations.
“His purpose did not become clear to the disciples until after His resurrection, and the revelation of His Deity consequent thereon. Thomas, when he realized the significance of the presence of a mortal wound in the body of a living man, immediately joined with it the absolute title of Deity, saying, 'My Lord and my God,' John 20:28. Thereafter, except in Acts 10:4; Rev. 7:14, there is no record that kyrios was ever again used by believers in addressing any save God and the Lord Jesus; cp. Acts 2:47 with Acts 4:29, 30.
“How soon and how completely the lower meaning had been superseded is seen in Peter's declaration in his first sermon after the resurrection, 'God hath made Him, Lord,' Acts 2:36, and that in the house of Cornelius, 'He is Lord of all,' Acts 10:36; cp. Deut. 10:14; Matt. 11:25; Acts 17:24. In his writings the implications of his early teaching are confirmed and developed. Thus Psa. 34:8, 'O taste and see that Jehovah is good,' is applied to the Lord Jesus, 1 Pet. 2:3, and 'Jehovah of Hosts, Him shall ye sanctify,' Isa. 8:13, becomes 'sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord,' 1 Pet. 3:15.
“So also James who uses kyrios alike of God, Jas. 1:7 (cp. Jas. 1:5); Jas. 3:9; Jas. 4:15; Jas. 5:4, 10, 11, and of the Lord Jesus, Jas. 1:1 (where the possibility that kai is intended epexegetically, i.e. = even, cp. 1 Thess. 3:11, should not be overlooked); Jas. 2:1 (lit., 'our Lord Jesus Christ of glory,' cp. Psa. 24:7; Psa. 29:3; Acts 7:2; 1 Cor. 2:8); 1 Cor. 5:7, 8, while the language of Jas. 4:10; Jas. 5:15, is equally applicable to either.
“Jude, Jude 1:4, speaks of 'our only–Lord, Jesus Christ,' and immediately, Jude 1:5, uses 'Lord' of God (see the remarkable marg. here), as he does later, Jude 1:9, 14.
“Paul ordinarily uses kyrios of the Lord Jesus, 1 Cor. 1:3, e.g., but also on occasion, of God, in quotations from the OT, 1 Cor. 3:20, e.g., and in his own words, 1 Cor. 3:5, cp. 1 Cor. 3:10. It is equally appropriate to either in 1 Cor. 7:25; 2 Cor. 3:16; 2 Cor. 8:21; 1 Thess. 4:6, and if 1 Cor. 11:32 is to be interpreted by 1 Cor. 10:21, 22, the Lord Jesus is intended, but if by Heb. 12:5-9, then kyrios here also = God. 1 Tim. 6:15, 16 is probably to be understood of the Lord Jesus, cp. Rev. 17:14.
“Though John does not use 'Lord' in his Epistles, and though, like the other Evangelists, he ordinarily uses the personal Name in his narrative, yet he occasionally speaks of Him as 'the Lord,' John 4:1; John 6:23; John 11:2; John 20:20; John 21:12.
“The full significance of this association of Jesus with God under the one appellation, 'Lord,' is seen when it is remembered that these men belonged to the only monotheistic race in the world. To associate with the Creator one known to be a creature, however exalted, though possible to Pagan philosophers, was quite impossible to a Jew.
“It is not recorded that in the days of His flesh any of His disciples either addressed the Lord, or spoke of Him, by His personal Name. Where Paul has occasion to refer to the facts of the Gospel history he speaks of what the Lord Jesus said, Acts 20:35, and did, 1 Cor. 11:23, and suffered, 1 Thess. 2:15; 1 Thess. 5:9, 10. It is our Lord Jesus who is coming, 1 Thess. 2:19, etc. In prayer also the title is
given, 1 Thess. 3:11; Eph. 1:3; the sinner is invited to believe on the Lord Jesus, Acts 16:31; Acts 20:21, and the saint to look to the Lord Jesus for deliverance, Rom. 7:24, 25, and in the few exceptional cases in which the personal Name stands alone a reason is always discernible in the immediate context.
“The title 'Lord,' as given to the Savior, in its full significance rests upon the resurrection, Acts 2:36; Rom. 10:9; Rom. 14:9, and is realized only in the Holy Spirit, 1 Cor. 12:3.” * [* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, p. 25.]
—Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words

a landlord, well I am buying my house so I really don't have a “landlord” but…. in any case… a landlord is not my Lord, and that you would compare a landlord to my Lord and King Jesus Christ is nothing short of blasphemous…. hopefully now that you know the real ramifications of the term kyrios, you no longer have an excuse either for your ignorance or your cavalier blasphemous comparisons…

blessings,
ken

Kyrios means lord or master

You seem to have misunderstood that using the word Lord to substitute for Saying Yahweh does not apply in the NT and even if it did it still would not convert the actual meaning if that were true all those called lord in the enture Bible would be God.

BTW, Those who do have landlords are aware that the property does not belong to them.

Also the Head of Christ is GOD, true or false?

Who is Christ?
Who is God?

Please answer the above questions as they apply to the first question.

Please do not try to change definitions of words, it is not needed. We all know that Jesus only refers to God as Father.

So you are saying that Jesus is Jehovah because someone called him Master(lord) just like Mary said Rabbi(teacher)

Nice try though.

April 22, 2009 at 8:41 pm#128545

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ April 22 2009,17:51)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2009,12:32)

Hi KW,
If your Jesus was a philosopher he was another Jesus.2cor11

The Son of God had no time to waste with such human follies.

So you choose to condemn Jesus with Paul. It makes sense for the one that condemns the student also condemns the teacher. Repent of your bias that depends on the traditions of men and look to God.

Dictionary.com Unabridged Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009 reads:

Quote

1) the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct.

…

So is your Jesus irrational or does he perhaps not seek out(reveal) the truths and principles of God?

Hi KW,
Jesus is truth.
God spoke and worked through him in wisdom and power.
He had no need of the vanity and entertainment of philosophy.

Acts 17
15And they that conducted Paul brought him unto Athens: and receiving a commandment unto Silas and Timotheus for to come to him with all speed, they departed.

16Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.

17Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

18Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

19And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?

20For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.

21(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

April 23, 2009 at 1:17 am#128588

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ April 23 2009,08:27)

Kyrios means lord or master

bodhitharta,
You are incorrect. Epistemaniac has already given you this but let me emphasis the important parts so it's not lost on you.

Excerts from Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:

kurios is the Sept. and NT representative of Heb. Jehovah ('Lord' in Eng. versions), see Matt. 4:7; Jas. 5:11,

In his writings the implications of his early teaching are confirmed and developed. Thus Ps. 34:8, 'O taste and see that Jehovah is good,' is applied to the Lord Jesus, 1 Pet. 2:3, and 'Jehovah of Hosts, Him shall ye sanctify,' Isa. 8:13, becomes 'sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord,' 1 Pet. 3:15.

“So also James who uses kurios alike of God, Jas. 1:7 (cp. Jas. 1:5); 3:9; 4:15; 5:4,10,11, and of the Lord Jesus, Jas. 1:1 (where the possibility that kai is intended epexegetically, i.e. = even, cp. 1 Thess. 3:11, should not be overlooked); Jas. 2:1 (lit., 'our Lord Jesus Christ of glory,' cp. Ps. 24:7; 29:3; Acts 7:2; 1 Cor. 2:8); 5:7,8, while the language of Jas. 4:10; 5:15, is equally applicable to either.

“Jude, Jude 1:4, speaks of 'our only–Lord, Jesus Christ,' and immediately, Jude 1:5, uses 'Lord' of God (see the remarkable marg. here), as he does later, Jude 1:9,14.

“Paul ordinarily uses kurios of the Lord Jesus, 1 Cor. 1:3, e.g., but also on occasion, of God, in quotations from the OT, 1 Cor. 3:20, e.g., and in his own words, 1 Cor. 3:5, cp. 1 Cor. 3:10. It is equally appropriate to either in 1 Cor. 7:25; 2 Cor. 3:16; 8:21; 1 Thess. 4:6, and if 1 Cor. 11:32 is to be interpreted by 1 Cor. 10:21,22, the Lord Jesus is intended, but if by Heb. 12:5-9, then kurios here also = God. 1 Tim. 6:15,16 is probably to be understood of the Lord Jesus, cp. Rev. 17:14.
http://www2.mf.no/bibelprog/vines?word=¯t0001705

Also, this from From Strong's Concordance:
G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): – God, Lord, master, Sir.

What you wrote is incorrect. Do some etymological research on Kurios and your error will soon become obvious. Best of luck.

April 23, 2009 at 1:42 am#128590

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
Of course Lord Jesus is the Son of God in whom God dwelled as His Holy Spirit.
He is the vine of which we are branches and serves the Gardener and is our Lord.
His service to his God is perfect and we serve God by serving God's appointed Lord

April 23, 2009 at 1:54 am#128595

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 23 2009,13:17)

Quote (bodhitharta @ April 23 2009,08:27)

Kyrios means lord or master

bodhitharta,
You are incorrect. Epistemaniac has already given you this but let me emphasis the important parts so it's not lost on you.

Excerts from Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:

kurios is the Sept. and NT representative of Heb. Jehovah ('Lord' in Eng. versions), see Matt. 4:7; Jas. 5:11,

“Jude, Jude 1:4, speaks of 'our only–Lord, Jesus Christ,' and immediately, Jude 1:5, uses 'Lord' of God (see the remarkable marg. here), as he does later, Jude 1:9,14.

What you wrote is incorrect. Do some etymological research on Kurios and your error will soon become obvious. Best of luck.

Kyrios or Kurios, which one is it?

Kurios (also spelled kyrios, Greek κύριος) may refer to:

the Greek for God, lord, master, sir[1][2]

What you do not understand is that a person can say this 4 times and it mean 4 different things.

A woman can say ” My lord(sir) I have listened to my “lord(Master) and he has told me to the lord(God)

So your using this word to prove something proves nothing and the Jews used Lord not to take place of the word Yahweh they used it to not use the name of God at all because they did not believe that the actual name should be spoken, written or said.

Now, if you wish to not believe me, that is fine but the truth in the matter is clear and that is Kurios or Kyrios is simply a title of respect the emperor was also called kyrio.

You can see from the list below how many different kinds of people could be entitled with this word.

Strong's #2962: kurios (pronounced koo'-ree-os)

from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):– God, Lord, master, Sir.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

kurios

1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord

1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing

1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master

1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor

1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master

1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah

What you won't admit is that while they say “lord” often in reference to Jesus whne they speak of the Father they say”God and Father of our lord Jesus Christ” if they wanted you to believe that Jesus was equal to God why wouldn't they have said everytime To Our Father God and to Jesus Our God? That's because it's not true.

Now please stop trying to tweak the meaning of words to fit your doctrine it's really not needed because Jesus has already said the entire time he was here that he was SENT FROM GOD he never said I CAME HERE….HE Said I WAS SENT FROM GOD.

I now rebuke you for trying to alter the message of Jesus who calls Our Heavenly Father THE ONLY TRUE GOD and then Jesus tells you to BELIEVE IN GOD and then he says Believe in him “Also”

April 23, 2009 at 2:07 am#128599

Participant

Quote (epistemaniac @ April 22 2009,15:17)

epistemaniac,

This should clear up this whole matter. (Praise God for this insight He gave me)

Jesus is the Son of God

Are you a child of God or a Child of The Father? Jesus says that we are The Father's Children

Is Jesus your Father or is Jesus's Father your Father?

Also, Jesus is the Son of God

What God is Jesus the Son of?
What God does Jesus Worship

Does God Almighty Worship some other God
Who gave God Almighty His Power
Who gave the Father His Power
Who gave Jesus His Power

April 23, 2009 at 2:08 am#128600

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ April 23 2009,13:54)

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

kurios

1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord

1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing

1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master

1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor

1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master

1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah

I see you have indeed done some research which forcibly shows the error you have made. It's must be obvious to you by now. Nice one.

April 23, 2009 at 2:14 am#128602

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ April 23 2009,13:54)

Kyrios or Kurios, which one is it?

These are two different ways to spell the same Greek word.

April 23, 2009 at 2:27 am#128603

Participant

Hi BD,
We love your scriptural straighforwardness.
Keep holding fast to the simple truths despite the efforts of the confused.

April 23, 2009 at 3:21 am#128610

epistemaniac

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ April 23 2009,08:27)

Quote (epistemaniac @ April 22 2009,15:17)

Quote (bodhitharta @ April 17 2009,16:43)

Quote (epistemaniac @ April 17 2009,04:34)

nope… Jesus DID NOT say that

Quote

THEE ONLY TRUE GOD

if for no other reason than that Jesus did not speak Elizabethan English 😉

blessings,
ken

Thee or the is not the point ONLY and TRUE is the point.

Titus 1:3-4
4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith:

Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ[a] our Savior.

Notice the scripture says GOD the Father and the “Lord” Jesus Christ.

Just so everyone here knows and understands the word Lord does not ever mean God it simply means Master or Owner or possesor just as those who rent apartments have Landlords

I hope you don't worship your landlord although being nice to them is a Godly thing to be.

consider that “God” means Supreme being then that being said The Father is The Most High in Supremity and there for the Onlu True Supreme Being.

(g) kyrios is the Sept. and NT representative of Heb. Jehovah ('Lord' in Eng. versions), see Matt. 4:7; Jas. 5:11, e.g., of adon, Lord, Matt. 22:44, and of Adonay, Lord, Matt. 1:22; it also occurs for Elohim, God, 1 Pet. 1:25.
“Thus the usage of the word in the NT follows two main lines: one– a-f, customary and general, the other, g, peculiar to the Jews, and drawn from the Greek translation of the OT.
“Christ Himself assumed the title, Matt. 7:21, 22; Matt. 9:38; Matt. 22:41-45; Mark 5:19 (cp. Psa. 66:16; the parallel passage, Luke 8:39, has 'God'); Luke 19:31; John 13:13, apparently intending it in the higher senses of its current use, and at the same time suggesting its OT associations.
“His purpose did not become clear to the disciples until after His resurrection, and the revelation of His Deity consequent thereon. Thomas, when he realized the significance of the presence of a mortal wound in the body of a living man, immediately joined with it the absolute title of Deity, saying, 'My Lord and my God,' John 20:28. Thereafter, except in Acts 10:4; Rev. 7:14, there is no record that kyrios was ever again used by believers in addressing any save God and the Lord Jesus; cp. Acts 2:47 with Acts 4:29, 30.
“How soon and how completely the lower meaning had been superseded is seen in Peter's declaration in his first sermon after the resurrection, 'God hath made Him, Lord,' Acts 2:36, and that in the house of Cornelius, 'He is Lord of all,' Acts 10:36; cp. Deut. 10:14; Matt. 11:25; Acts 17:24. In his writings the implications of his early teaching are confirmed and developed. Thus Psa. 34:8, 'O taste and see that Jehovah is good,' is applied to the Lord Jesus, 1 Pet. 2:3, and 'Jehovah of Hosts, Him shall ye sanctify,' Isa. 8:13, becomes 'sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord,' 1 Pet. 3:15.
“So also James who uses kyrios alike of God, Jas. 1:7 (cp. Jas. 1:5); Jas. 3:9; Jas. 4:15; Jas. 5:4, 10, 11, and of the Lord Jesus, Jas. 1:1 (where the possibility that kai is intended epexegetically, i.e. = even, cp. 1 Thess. 3:11, should not be overlooked); Jas. 2:1 (lit., 'our Lord Jesus Christ of glory,' cp. Psa. 24:7; Psa. 29:3; Acts 7:2; 1 Cor. 2:8); 1 Cor. 5:7, 8, while the language of Jas. 4:10; Jas. 5:15, is equally applicable to either.
“Jude, Jude 1:4, speaks of 'our only–Lord, Jesus Christ,' and immediately, Jude 1:5, uses 'Lord' of God (see the remarkable marg. here), as he does later, Jude 1:9, 14.
“Paul ordinarily uses kyrios of the Lord Jesus, 1 Cor. 1:3, e.g., but also on occasion, of God, in quotations from the OT, 1 Cor. 3:20, e.g., and in his own words, 1 Cor. 3:5, cp. 1 Cor. 3:10. It is equally appropriate to either in 1 Cor. 7:25; 2 Cor. 3:16; 2 Cor. 8:21; 1 Thess. 4:6, and if 1 Cor. 11:32 is to be interpreted by 1 Cor. 10:21, 22, the Lord Jesus is intended, but if by Heb. 12:5-9, then kyrios here also = God. 1 Tim. 6:15, 16 is probably to be understood of the Lord Jesus, cp. Rev. 17:14.
“Though John does not use 'Lord' in his Epistles, and though, like the other Evangelists, he ordinarily uses the personal Name in his narrative, yet he occasionally speaks of Him as 'the Lord,' John 4:1; John 6:23; John 11:2; John 20:20; John 21:12.
“The full significance of this association of Jesus with God under the one appellation, 'Lord,' is seen when it is remembered that these men belonged to the only monotheistic race in the world. To associate with the Creator one known to be a creature, however exalted, though possible to Pagan philosophers, was quite impossible to a Jew.
“It is not recorded that in the days of His flesh any of His disciples either addressed the Lord, or spoke of Him, by His personal Name. Where Paul has occasion to refer to the fa
cts of the Gospel history he speaks of what the Lord Jesus said, Acts 20:35, and did, 1 Cor. 11:23, and suffered, 1 Thess. 2:15; 1 Thess. 5:9, 10. It is our Lord Jesus who is coming, 1 Thess. 2:19, etc. In prayer also the title is given, 1 Thess. 3:11; Eph. 1:3; the sinner is invited to believe on the Lord Jesus, Acts 16:31; Acts 20:21, and the saint to look to the Lord Jesus for deliverance, Rom. 7:24, 25, and in the few exceptional cases in which the personal Name stands alone a reason is always discernible in the immediate context.
“The title 'Lord,' as given to the Savior, in its full significance rests upon the resurrection, Acts 2:36; Rom. 10:9; Rom. 14:9, and is realized only in the Holy Spirit, 1 Cor. 12:3.” * [* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, p. 25.]
—Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words

blessings,
ken

Kyrios means lord or master

BTW, Those who do have landlords are aware that the property does not belong to them.

Also the Head of Christ is GOD, true or false?

Who is Christ?
Who is God?

Please answer the above questions as they apply to the first question.

Please do not try to change definitions of words, it is not needed. We all know that Jesus only refers to God as Father.

So you are saying that Jesus is Jehovah because someone called him Master(lord) just like Mary said Rabbi(teacher)

Nice try though.

I did not change the definitions of words, but instead gave you a standard dictionary definition by a popular, non-controversial reference book. If you choose to ignore this reference and live in your own tiny little bubble of infallibility, well have at it. Here is yet another standard you can ignore…. though of course, at your own peril, and of course giving you the truth, and having you choose to stay ignorant, is something you and God have to sort out….

“E. kýrios in the NT.
1. Secular Usage. In the NT kýrios is used for the owner of the vineyard (Mk. 12:9) or of animals (Lk. 19:33; Mt. 15:27), and for the master of the steward (Lk. 16:3) and slaves (Eph. 6:5-6). It also refers to the one who controls something, e.g., the harvest (Mt. 9:38) or the sabbath (Mk. 2:28). Polite usage occurs in Lk. 1:43, but superiority is suggested in 1 Pet. 3:6; Mk. 12:36-37; Acts 25:26. Slaves and workers use the address kýrie (cf. Lk. 13:8). The Jews use the same address to Pilate in Mt. 27:63, Mary to the gardener in Jn. 20:15, the jailer to Paul and Silas in Acts 16:30 (cf. also Mt. 21:29; Acts 10:4). The double form occurs in Mt. 7:21-22; 25:11; Lk. 6:46. We find genitive combinations in 1 Cor. 2:8 (glory) and 2 Th. 3:16 (peace). despótēs is used only in prayer or for the master of slaves or owner of a house (1 Tim. 6:1-2; 2 Tim. 2:21).
2. God as Lord. God is called kýrios in the NT mostly in OT quotations or allusions (Mk. 1:3; 12:11, etc.; for a full list see TDNT, III, 1086-87). In the basic Synoptic material God is ho kýrios only in Mk. 5:19. kýrios is very common in the prologue to Luke (cf. also the epilogue to Matthew). LXX influence may be seen in expressions like the hand, name, angel, spirit, or word of the Lord (Lk. 1:66; Jms. 5:10; Mt. 1:20; Acts 5:9; 8:25). kýrios also means God in 1 Cor. 10:9; 1 Tim. 6:15; Heb. 7:21, etc., and Revelation has such formulas as kýrios ho theós (1:8 etc.; cf. 11:15; 22:6). The data suggest that kýrios is not a common term for God apart from OT use, but that its content can at any time be given full weight (cf. Mt. 11:25, which implies free assent to the free divine decision; Mt. 9:38, where the lord of the harvest is the Lord of world history; 1 Tim. 6:15, which ascribes total sovereignty to God; and Acts 17:24, where God is Lord as Creator). In Revelation God is Lord as the Almighty (1:8 etc.), but the elders call him “our Lord” (4:11). Lord has a special emphasis in the prayer of Acts 1:24 and it underlies the obligation of worship in Jms. 3:9.
3. Jesus as Lord.
a. Paul in 1 Cor. 12:3 contrasts anáthema Iēsoús and kýrios Iēsoús. The parallel is not exact, for anáthema may be pronounced against many persons or things but kýrios applies to Jesus alone. In Phil. 2;6ff. the name kýrios is given to Jesus as the response of God to his obedient suffering. It implies a position equal to that of God. That the risen Jesus is Lord is stated also in Rom. 10:9; Acts 2:36, and for parallels cf. Heb. 2:6ff.; Mt. 28:18, and the use of Ps. 110:1 (Acts 5:31; Rom. 8:34; 1 Cor. 15:25ff.; Col. 3:1; Eph. 1:20-21). In 1 Cor. 11:3 the world is related to God only indirectly through Christ its Head. In Col. 2:6, 10 Christ the Lord is the Head of all authority and power. In 1 Cor. 15:28 the Son exercises the lordship of God the Father in order to subject all things to him. In Rom. 14:9 lordship over humanity is central as the lordship of the crucified and risen Lord (5:6; 6:4, 9; 1 Cor. 1:23-24; Gal. 3:13, etc.). The gospel is the gospel of Christ and involves being crucified with him or baptized into him. Paul comes to Rome with the blessing of Christ, and the church is one body in Christ. Believers serve the Lord (Rom. 12:11), stand or fa11 before him (14:4ff.), and are to walk worthy of him (cf. 1 Cor. 11:27). It is the Lord who comes (1 Th. 4:15ff.), from whom Paul is absent (2 Cor. 5:6ff.), who gives powers to his servants (2 Cor. 10:8), and whose work is being done (1 Cor. 15:58). This Lord is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17). As there is one God, the Father, so there is one Lord, Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 8:6). It is through him that all things are, and that Christians exist as such. There is no set pattern for the alternation of Christós and kýrios. Often we find combinations such as ho kýrios Iēsoús or ho kýrios hēmōn Iēsoús (Christós). The use of the name Jesus gives emphasis and solemnity to the formula, and the personal pronoun stresses the personal relationship, which as that of the whole church implies the interrelationship of Christians (Rom. 15:30; 1 Cor. 1:2) but also their separation from others (Rom. 16:18).
b. kýrios may also be used for the historical Jesus (cf. 1 Cor. 7:10, 12; 1 Th. 4:15; 1 Cor. 9:5; Heb. 2:3; Acts 11:16; 20:35). Luke has kýrios for Jesus 13 times, John has it five times, and cf. Mk. 11:3; Jn. 21:7 (though in Mk. 11:3 the reference might be to God). In address to Jesus we find didáskale, rhabbí, and rhabbouní as well as kýrie. In Mark kýrie is used only once by a Gentile woman, but the doubling in Lk. 6:46; Mt. 7:21-22 suggests a Semitic original. If didáskalos is more commonly used by Jesus himself as well as others (cf. Mk. 14:14; Mt. 10:24-25), kýrios in Luke and John has its roots in the life and work of Jesus. The resurrection is decisive, for it shows that Jesus is still the Lord and casts a new light on his teaching (cf. the use of Ps. 110:1 in Mk. 12:35ff.). The word kýrios is thus seen to be a proper one for the comprehensive lordship of Jesus. In him God acts as the kýrios does in the OT.” (Kittel, G., Friedrich, G., & Bromiley, G. W. (1995, c1985). Theological dictionary of the New Testament. Translation of: Theologisches Worterbuch zum Neuen Testament. (492). Grand Rapids, Mich.: W.B. Eerdmans.)

“One might be inclined to think that of all the design
ations applied to Jesus, the title “Lord” would connote as clearly as any the reality of His deity. In English translations of the gospel, this is probably true. But the Greek word kyrios, translated “Lord,” has a broader range of meaning. It can be used simply as a term of courteous respect. For example, when the chief priests and the Pharisees came to Pilate to request that a guard be placed at Jesus’ tomb, the report of their petition began with the (vocative of) address kyrie, which English translations appropriately render “Sir” (27:63). The Jews were not portrayed as according divine prerogatives to Pilate; they simply addressed him with respect.
On the other hand, kyrios is customarily used as the title of God in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, so that Old Testament citations in the gospel commonly refer to God in this way. This “divine” usage is significant in light of Jesus’ discussion with the Pharisees about His sonship. The question is posed this way: “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” (22:42). When they rightly answered that He is David’s son, Jesus posed a conundrum for them, based on Psalm 110:1: “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says, “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.’ ” If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” (Matt. 22:43–45). The superiority of Christ to David is certainly affirmed here, and the implication of Christ’s deity, in view of the play on “Lord,” is seen as well.
That Matthew saw divine prerogatives associated with the title “Lord” are clear from two passages concerned with Jesus as the Judge who determines individuals’ destinies. According to 7:22, many will profess allegiance to Jesus and be numbered among His followers but they will ultimately be banished from His presence. “Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ ” (7:22–23)
In this context, calling Jesus “Lord” formally identifies these individuals as followers of Christ, but ultimately this profession of faith is shown by their deeds to be false. It is noteworthy that the deeds that betray their false profession are not the miraculous and the spectacular. Their claims with regard to these deeds are not denied. Rather, they have not done the will of God (v. 21); the apparently prosaic and unspectacular deeds have been left undone. What that might mean is illustrated in part by the second passage of relevance to Jesus as Lord and ultimate Judge.
The account of the judgment of the nations, compared to a separation of sheep from goats, is also a passage distinctive to Matthew’s gospel (25:31–46). Here too Jesus as the Judge of all humankind is hailed as “Lord” by both the blessed (v. 34) and the cursed (v. 41). What is cited as evidence for the reality of that profession is the attention given to those whom Jesus called “the least of these brothers of mine” (v. 40), with whom He identified so that He could speak of acts done to them as done to Him (cf. 10:42). Though the cursed hail Jesus as “Lord,” they show by their deeds that they are not His sheep.
That both the blessed and the cursed acknowledge Jesus as Lord coheres with the conviction that “God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow … and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord” (Phil. 2:9–11). “Lord,” therefore, is a title associated with Jesus’ exercise of divine prerogatives, suggestive of His deity.
“Lord” is also the designation Matthew seemed to regard as most appropriate on the lips of disciples. In addition to the two passages discussed above, comparison with two accounts also recorded by Mark and Luke illustrates this. The first is in the account of the stilling of the storm on the sea of Galilee (Matt. 8:23–27; Mark 4:35–41; Luke 8:22–25). Although Jesus was with them, asleep in the boat, the disciples, afraid of perishing, called to Him for help. But each writer recorded a different form of address: for Luke, it is “Master” (Luke 8:24); Mark used “Teacher” (Mark 4:38); and Matthew wrote “Lord” (Matt. 8:25).
The same pattern occurs in the account of Jesus’ transfiguration (Matt. 17:1–9; Mark 9:2–10; Luke 9:28–36). At the appearance of Moses and Elijah in conversation with Jesus, Peter made a proposal. Again, each writer recorded a different form of address consistent with what was used earlier: for Luke it is “Master” (Luke 9:33); for Mark, “Rabbi,” a synonym for “Teacher” (Mark 9:5); and Matthew used “Lord” (Matt. 17:4).
Matthew seems to have been saying to his readers that a most suitable way to address Jesus is to call him “Lord.” This title acknowledges both Jesus’ authority and the responsibility disciples have to obey His commands (28:20).” (Zuck, R. B. (1994; A Biblical Theology of the New Testament. Chicago: Moody Press.)

But, I will indeed answer your questions, out of courtesy, I ask that you do the same by examining the above resources, and answering my question:

“can kyrios mean more than a mere title of human respect?”

to your questions…

Quote

who is Christ

While it is a bit disturbing that someone who claims to know so much about God fails to know the answer to these questions, Christ is the Messiah, the Anointed one of Israel, the suffering servant, the Lamb of God, the one who forgives sins committed against God, the judge, the One before whom every knee will one day bow, Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father.

Quote

who is God?

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, yet…. hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one God… the attributes of God are, well, attributed, to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit… since there is only one God, yet personality is ascribed to all 3 in such a way as to have them spoken of as separate personas, what best explains this situation is that God is triune.

As far as the first question goes, that is simple, the head of Christ is God. But where you are being simplistic, is in thinking that this is somehow some kind of profound objection against the Trinity… in the human family, the husband is head, but this in no way means that the husband is necessarily superior in regard to his being… his ontos…. to his wife, now is he? Of course not. And so too, just because the head of Christ is God the Father, it equally does not follow that because the Father is the head of Christ, that He is ontologically superior to the Son or the Holy Spirit. As human beings, they are equal, but they have different roles to play in the economy of the family. So too with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are equal to one another, but they have differing roles in the role of salvation. its as simple as that.

blessings,
ken

April 23, 2009 at 3:25 am#128611

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 23 2009,14:08)

Quote (bodhitharta @ April 23 2009,13:54)

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

kurios

1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord

1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing

1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master

1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor

1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master

1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah

I see you have indeed done some research which forcibly shows the error you have made. It's must be obvious to you by now. Nice one.

The odd thing is you left out the other definitions that are more prominent. For instance, I said landlord and you said “that word didn't apply” well it turns out it is the main definition, isn't 1a) the definition of a landlord.

I didn't say that Jesus wasn't lord, I said Jesus wasn't God and that's where you misunderstand.

The point is not what the word kyrios means because it applies to Jesus, God, or anyone who has who has control of someone. Women have called their husbands “lord” anyone who has mastership is called lord,

The point is the word is weak uniqueness whereas YHWH is specific but the Jews didn't want people using the name of the Lord in Vain even Jesus didn't run around using the name hence he said Father and he taught us to pray to “Our Father” I really don't even understand why you protest so much to worshipping the same God Jesus Worships the same God Jesus Cried out to.

Once again let's see who we are talking about here:

Hebrews 5:6-8 (King James Version)

6As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Now we can learn from this that Jesus is a Priest after the order of Melchesidec, is God after the order of anyone.

Does God need to be saved

Did God really “learn” obedience?

How long will you stay blind, pray and ask if I am telling you the truth and while your at it pray and ask Jesus is he God?

and when you do that come and tell us what God Said to you and if you should not tell us rightly remember it is not us you would be lying to for it will be the Holy Spirit.

So now, let God be a witness between me and you.

April 23, 2009 at 3:27 am#128612

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2009,14:27)

Hi BD,
We love your scriptural straighforwardness.
Keep holding fast to the simple truths despite the efforts of the confused.

I appreciate that, may God bless you Always for your honesty and vision.

April 23, 2009 at 3:44 am#128613

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ April 23 2009,15:25)

Yes, Kurios has more than one possible definition. I agree and have afffirmed this many times here.

Quote

I didn't say that Jesus wasn't lord, I said Jesus wasn't God and that's where you misunderstand.

“I didn't say that Jesus wasn't lord” – Huh? Where did we talk about this?

Quote

I was simply pointing out that “kurios” is a Greek word that is used to render YHWH in the NT. When NT authors quote the OT passages with the word YHWH in them they used kurios. The authors of the Greek OT, the LXX, did the same.

Quote

Once again let's see who we are talking about here:

Hebrews 5:6-8 (King James Version)

6As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Now we can learn from this that Jesus is a Priest after the order of Melchesidec, is God after the order of anyone.

Does God need to be saved

Did God really “learn” obedience?

This has been adressed countless times. Read Philippians 2:5-8 for the clearest explanation.

Quote

How long will you stay blind, pray and ask if I am telling you the truth and while your at it pray and ask Jesus is he God?

No not truth at all. Your posts are riddled with errors.

Quote

and when you do that come and tell us what God Said to you and if you should not tell us rightly remember it is not us you would be lying to for it will be the Holy Spirit.

So now, let God be a witness between me and you.

he he…righto!

April 23, 2009 at 4:16 am#128620

epistemaniac

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ April 23 2009,14:07)

epistemaniac,April wrote:

[/quote]
epistemaniac,

This should clear up this whole matter. (Praise God for this insight He gave me)

Jesus is the Son of God

Are you a child of God or a Child of The Father? Jesus says that we are The Father's Children

Is Jesus your Father or is Jesus's Father your Father?

Also, Jesus is the Son of God

What God is Jesus the Son of?
What God does Jesus Worship

Does God Almighty Worship some other God
Who gave God Almighty His Power
Who gave the Father His Power
Who gave Jesus His Power

Strongs may be useful at times, but the way we interpret words are the way the words are used in sentences, and we get glimpses which help us interpret words in the ways the word is used in other areas of literature. This is just basic hermeneutics. Please refer again to the resources I mentioned to you earlier so that you can educate yourself in this area. It really won't take that much of your time, and the error you can save yourself from falling in to makes the effort well worth your time. That is why series of books like Kittel and Thayers, and the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament; and Brown, Driver and Briggs and Theological Word Book of the Old Testament are all important tools to help us properly interpret the scriptures.

So what is clear to me is that you need to not sell yourself short and follow what a favorite teacher of mine called the “philosophy of the first glance”, or to say it another way, don't be so superficial in your studies. Because you are approaching the study of Scripture in this way, you are failing to understand the Scriptures properly. So you are praising God a little prematurely for your so called “insights”.

Yes, Jesus is the Son of God. Is this a blindingly clear statement of the obvious?

Am I a child of God or a child of The Father?
Let me help you a little here as it is also very obvious your thinking is a bit muddled. There is a very basic informal fallacy called “the false dichotomy”. This is to offer 2 choices as if they are the only 2 choices when in reality, there is at least a third option, if not more. A child of God can be called numerous things, a “Christian”, a “follower of the way”, a “saint”, a “child of God”, etc.

You ask

Quote

Is Jesus your Father or is Jesus's Father your Father?

Here again we have an example of this erroneous thinking, a false “either/or”. In this case, this questions assumes too much, and begs the question. There is no confusion, Jesus is not His own Father. But just because this is the case, it does not disprove the equality of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There are different roles among the members of the Trinity. These differing roles imply, not inequality, but oneness of will, and certainly does not prove any inequality.

Quote

Also, Jesus is the Son of God

Again, yes, Jesus is the Son of God. We can put that to rest, ok?

Quote

What God is Jesus the Son of?

Let me ask you a question bodhitharta, when did you stop beating your wife?

You see what is happening in a question like this? It is an example of what often happens in questions like yours and are also well evidenced by questions from Nick. These are logically fallacious questions, informal fallacies, called “Complex Questions”.

“Complex Question
Definition:
Two otherwise unrelated points are conjoined and treated as a single proposition. The reader is expected to accept or reject both together, when in reality one is acceptable while the other is not. A complex question is an illegitimate use of the “and” operator. “

So in my question to you, when did you stop beating your wife, if you are forced to answer “yes” or “no” you will, in effect, admit that you did beat your wife, or, that you have not stopped and are still beating her. What is an unspoken premise to this is that you are in fact beating your wife. So in regard to your questions to me…

Quote

What God is Jesus the Son of?
What God does Jesus Worship

Does God Almighty Worship some other God
Who gave God Almighty His Power
Who gave the Father His Power
Who gave Jesus His Power

These fail to take into account the fact that Jesus is both God and man. As to Jesus' manhood there is no problem whatsoever in saying that Jesus is God the Father's Son…. that Jesus worships God the Father… that God does not worship another God… no one gave God His power…. no one gives the Father His power…. and the Father gives Jesus His power. Your problem is in thinking that this in some way acts as any evidence against the deity of Christ. Paul makes clear this submissive relationship between the Father and the Son in Philippians 2:4-8 (ESV) [4] Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. [5] Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, [6] who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, [7] but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. [8] and being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”

There are other sets of passages that speak… not to Jesus' humanity and submissive nature, but to His preexistence state, His glory that He had with God the Father in heaven before He came to earth, that He forgives sins committed against God the Father, something that would be blasphemous if Jesus were not God, that John saw Jesus' glory in the temple vision if Issiah's vision in Isaiah chapter 6, that the very glory of God is for the most part present in Jesus, but also veiled, though it was at times partially revealed as in the story of the Transfiguration, the fact that Jesus can be said to raise Himself fromt he dead, and that the bible also says that God raised Him from the dead, and on and on it could go. What you are doing is asking questions based only on half the data, that of Jesus' willing submission, and not on those texts which reveal His essential unity with the Father. And further, you complicate matters by insisting on asking questions that rely on faulty and erroneous premises, which commit informal fallacies like the false dichotomy and complex questions….

well I hope this clears up matters for you…

blessings,
ken

April 23, 2009 at 4:20 am#128621

epistemaniac

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2009,14:27)

Hi BD,
We love your scriptural straighforwardness.
Keep holding fast to the simple truths despite the efforts of the confused.

really? so you reject all the writings of Paul as well….? I had no idea your unorthodox views had taken you so far from the truth?
Sad….

blessings,
ken

April 23, 2009 at 5:52 am#128636