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I'm quite sure this has been debated more than once before. But I can't find any posts using the search system. And, I haven't seen it being talked about in any of the forums.
I was wondering if any here can shed some light on this for me.
You have your “Jesus' Name” churches (UPC,Apostolic) churches that believe this.Then you have your Church of Christ that believes your not going to heaven if you don't get baptized.
Then you have your Trinity churches that baptize in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
My first question is if you believe that Jesus is God (The oneness belief), or if you believe that Jesus is God in the Trinity Belief…and you baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Have you not been baptized in the Name of Jesus? I mean if they are one in the same…You see what i'm trying to say here? “Six of one, Half a dozen of the other”
Another thing, say a sinner walks in off the street into a church…lets say a UPC church and hears a “You better get sanctified or your gonna be french fried!” message and goes down to the altar at the end of the service and repents because he believes in the Blood of Jesus Christ…and some terrorist blows the church up right afterwards.
This man still goes to hell…because he did not get baptized in water in Jesus' Name?Brothers and Sisters…My soul has a hard time believing that. I'm sorry.
I mean just these few examples point out some possible flaws within a “Man-Made” belief.
Some say that you should be baptized in Jesus' Name solely because Jesus gave his the keys to heaven. And, so Peters not gonna let anyone into heaven if they have not been baptized in Jesus' Name. Reguardless.
If this is the case and this is such an important factor. How come these churches don't immediately command people to be baptized in Jesus' Name after the get saved. Instead of …oh well whenever you get ready…just come let me know when you wanna get baptized.
If we are going by Peters words here…we should be commanding people to be baptized, not asking them to. Furthermore, another thing that burns the soul on this type of belief is …why not worship and pray to Peter then? I mean after all he has the keys to Heaven. Just like the catholic thing…and the Mary deal…I mean shes the mother of GOD we should pray to her and worship her too.Does any of this sound even the least bit ridiculous?
If one should accept the Jesus the LORD and then die before he is baptized; will the Father fry him?
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
However I believe one should be baptized. But if the heart is not right, that is if you were not sincere when confessing Jesus, The the only thing baptism will do is get you wet.
I'm with you If you were baptized in the name of Father Son and Holy Spirit. Then you were baptized into Jesus.
If you have Jesus then you have the Father because you have the Holy Spirit.
Joh 14:7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
Am I saying that God is three persons in one…NO!
I'm saying that Jesus was so full of the Father that He took on the very nature of the Father so when you looked at Jesus you saw the Father.
I pray that this helps,
Ken
Actually, this verse
Mat 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Has nothing to do with the actual name of the three. It is a matter of authority. Have you ever heard something like “I've come in the name of XXXXXX”? For instance, in movies about medieval times, you might here “I have come in the name of the king”. It is a matter of authority. Thus, Jesus was saying to baptize in the authority of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. After all, all three are involved in your salvation. The Father sent His Son, the Son died and was resurrected, and your receive the Holy Spirit. So it has nothing at all to do with any trinity. It is scriptural.
LG&LP,
KevinLikewise a person says “in the name of the law”…, yet it isn't the sound that somehow magically makes things happen, it is the authority of the word that you use and the word “law” has a different sound in different languages. So it is the meaning, not the sound.
Some people use the name of Jesus like a magic wand. They think the sound “jeesus” somehow invokes a power that makes things happen they way they want.
But it is the authority of Jesus that he gave the Church that has the power therein. Of course authority given should also agree with the one who gave the authority. Using the name of Jesus to command a Ferrari to appear in my life is not necessarily the will of the one who gave the authority.
Well as silly as it sounds, people will swear to you that if your not baptized in Jesus' Name Your gonna fry for eternity, cause there is no way Peter is going to let you in Heaven since he has the keys.
…?
I thought Jesus the “Lamb” was the only one that can open the book of life and add or take away names in it. And if your names in the book of life, I'd venture to say your getting in heaven.
Of course i'm not exactly a bible scholar and I'm sure my understanding on a lot of things could stand to be a lot better. But this is different.
The very spirit that burns inside my soul does not want to agree with this.
Hi Samuel:
Jesus states:
Quote John 3:5″… Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a
man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”Most people probably believe that the “water” to which Jesus refers here is water baptism, and if so, that would mean that no one could enter the the kingdom of God without being bapitized.
My understanding is that the “water” to which Jesus refers is the Word of God.
The first step in being reconciled to God is that we must believe the gospel message. When one believes, then the Word conceives in a person's heart or he is born of water. When the person receives, the Holy Ghost then he is born of the Spirit.
The scripture states:
Quote Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report F39? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Jesus in his discussion with the Samaritan woman states:
Quote John 4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
4:11
The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
4:12
* Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof * * himself, and his children, and his cattle?
4:13
Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
4:14
But whosoever * * drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never * * * thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.The following scripture also refers to the Word of God as water:
Quote 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,The following scripture seems to indicate the the living water to which Jesus refers is the Holy Spirit:
Quote 7:38
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
7:39
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)However, it is the function of the Holy Spirit to lead us to all truth. The Holy Spirit is the life of the Father dwelling us as born again believers, but we live by the Word of God. When Jesus was tempted by Satan to turn the stone into bread he stated:
Quote Matt.4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.If a person could not be saved if he were not baptized in water, the thief on the cross could have not been saved:
Quote Luke 23:42
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.Should we who believe be baptized in water. Yes, I believe that we should be baptized as soon after we believe, but if we believe and happen to die before we had the opportunity to be baptized. I believe that we will be saved.
The formula that one is bapized whether “in the name of Jesus” or “in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost does not matter. The meaning is the same if a person believes the gospel message with a repentant heart.
The name “Jesus” means “Jehovah is salvation”, and I believe that to baptize “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the emphasis is “in the name of” and that name is “Jesus” which indicates unity in the purpose of salvation.Although I have stated the above relative to baptism, if I am put authority in the church, I will teach those churches that come under my authority to baptize in the name of Jesus as it was done in the scriptures by the Apostles, in order to stop this bickering about how to baptize. I believe that this will have to be done in order to bring unity in the church relative to this subject.
The keys to the kingdom that were given by the Lord to the Apostle Peter signifys the authority given to those in authority in the church to govern the church by the Word of God. The decisions that the church makes on earth will be binding in heaven. Of course, the decisions that the church makes must be in accordance with the Word of God.
The following scriptures are an example:
Quote Matt. 18:15
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
18:16
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but * * if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
18:19
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Here we see the procedure for dealing with someone who has offended another Christian. The last step in the procedure is left to the church to decide wether or not to excommunicate the person or not and that is dependant upon whether or not the person repents.
Jesus states:
Quote 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.If you are written in the Lambs book of life, the only way that you can be taken out of it is that you wilfully continue to disobey God's Word without repentance.
Quote Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.God Bless
Well…thank you brother. You have shed some light on a few things for me.
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
So when he is talking about “Upon this rock” he means to say “Upon Himself” because Jesus is the Corner Stone of the church. ..In other words “Christ, the Son of the living God” is the Rock upon which hes talking about building his church on? correct?
And, if that is true (which this is what I was thinking…only I had not thought of this) Then when he says “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven” Hes talking about the church which upon himself “Christ, the Son of the living God” was built. He did not Give any keys to Peter…but instead he gave the Keys to the CHURCH?If that is so then that makes sense. Actually, That makes quite a bit more sense than the idea of some Man running around with the keys of heaven and letting people in based upon weather or not they had been baptized in Jesus' Name…I have always agreed that one needs to be baptized.
Quote
The formula that one is bapized whether “in the name of Jesus” or “in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost does not matter. The meaning is the same if a person believes the gospel message with a repentant heart.
The name “Jesus” means “Jehovah is salvation”, and I believe that to baptize “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the emphasis is “in the name of” and that name is “Jesus” which indicates unity in the purpose of salvation.Although I have stated the above relative to baptism, if I am put authority in the church, I will teach those churches that come under my authority to baptize in the name of Jesus as it was done in the scriptures by the Apostles, in order to stop this bickering about how to baptize. I believe that this will have to be done in order to bring unity in the church relative to this subject.
I feel this same way…as long as one believes the word and accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour…knowing that his Blood is what has paid for his sins, and also knowing that the baptism is a symbol or sign showing that you've put the old you/man to rest…That your a new man. Having said that I don't really think it matters what is being said when you go under water. So long as its one of the two “In Jesus' Name” or “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”.
I would also be willing to say that Baptizing “In Jesus' Name” would be the way to go for the sole sake of joining the church together, brother AMEN! Praise God! And God bless you!
Hi Samuel:
You ask:
Quote So when he is talking about “Upon this rock” he means to say “Upon Himself” because Jesus is the Corner Stone of the church. ..In other words “Christ, the Son of the living God” is the Rock upon which hes talking about building his church on? correct? Yes, that is the way that I understand this. He is the Christ or the anointed Word of God.
The following scripture may make this a little clearer:
Quote 7:24
Therefore whosoever * * heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
7:25
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.And then you say:
Quote And, if that is true (which this is what I was thinking…only I had not thought of this) Then when he says “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven” Hes talking about the church which upon himself “Christ, the Son of the living God” was built. He did not Give any keys to Peter…but instead he gave the Keys to the CHURCH? If that is so then that makes sense. Actually, That makes quite a bit more sense than the idea of some Man running around with the keys of heaven and letting people in based upon weather or not they had been baptized in Jesus' Name…I have always agreed that one needs to be baptized.
Yes, the keys were given to the authority in the church via Peter who was the Apostle to the Nation of Israel when Jesus ascended into heaven. The keys to the Kingdom are passed on to the authority in the church. The Apostle Paul would have had the keys to the kingdom in that he was the Apostle to the gentile nations and etc.
This is my understanding. I hope that it helps.
God Bless
94
You say…
Quote
Most people probably believe that the “water” to which Jesus refers here is water baptism, and if so, that would mean that no one could enter the the kingdom of God without being bapitized.Just a thought. Basically a man concieved in his mothers womb is in water, the water breaks and the man is born.
Could it be Yeshua was saying that unless you are born of water (the flesh) and of the Spirit you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
I believe you are right that we are born again by the word. The Word is Spirit and life and they agree as one.
Just some thoughts!
Blessings
Wow, you know something worshipping I believe you might actually have brought up a very good point.
I mean being as in this day and time with all the stem-cell research going on and Clone-ing going on. Thats a very good topic actually.
Maybe some other people can comment on this?h
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 14 2007,16:50) Could it be Yeshua was saying that unless you are born of water (the flesh) and of the Spirit you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
I believe this is true. We must be born of the flesh and of the Spirit. This is why Jesus came in the flesh and the Father gave him the Spirit without measure. Note that Jesus was not born-again as we are. Oh, and I've always thought that the “water” was fleshly birth – not baptism.Good point, WJ!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 14 2007,16:50) 94 You say…
Quote
Most people probably believe that the “water” to which Jesus refers here is water baptism, and if so, that would mean that no one could enter the the kingdom of God without being bapitized.Just a thought. Basically a man concieved in his mothers womb is in water, the water breaks and the man is born.
Could it be Yeshua was saying that unless you are born of water (the flesh) and of the Spirit you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
I believe you are right that we are born again by the word. The Word is Spirit and life and they agree as one.
Just some thoughts!
Blessings
Hi WJ:Thanks for your comments, but IMHO I don't think that Jesus means the “water” to mean being born out of the placenta because if we are born of the flesh, we are born of the seed of man which is the sperm and not water. Although we break the water when we come out of the womb, we are not born of water in this situation.
And so, I will hold to my understanding that the “water” here is the Word of God. The seed is the Word of God which is conceived in our hearts.
I believe that the following scripture supports my understanding of this:
Quote 1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. God Bless
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water [flesh] and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh,[water] and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.Water baptism is symbolic. There is nothing magical about the water. Much as the bread and wine are symbolic of the body and blood of Christ.
That's the way I see it
Hi All:
Relative to water bapatism the Apostle Peter states:
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
I think that there is some confusion about the meaning of water baptism being sybmolic of our union with Jesus in his death, burial and resurrection because the scripture above states, “even baptism doth now save”. I struggled with this myself, but the Lord showed me that what he meant is not that it literally saves, but that it is symbolic of salvation. We are saved by faith, and we are baptized because we have believed with a repentant heart. We have not believed or if we have believed and have not repented, water baptism does not signify anything. In this case we go down into the water a dry sinner and come up a wet one. There has been no change.
God Bless
Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2007,02:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 14 2007,16:50) 94 You say…
Quote
Most people probably believe that the “water” to which Jesus refers here is water baptism, and if so, that would mean that no one could enter the the kingdom of God without being bapitized.Just a thought. Basically a man concieved in his mothers womb is in water, the water breaks and the man is born.
Could it be Yeshua was saying that unless you are born of water (the flesh) and of the Spirit you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
I believe you are right that we are born again by the word. The Word is Spirit and life and they agree as one.
Just some thoughts!
Blessings
Hi WJ:Thanks for your comments, but IMHO I don't think that Jesus means the “water” to mean being born out of the placenta because if we are born of the flesh, we are born of the seed of man which is the sperm and not water. Although we break the water when we come out of the womb, we are not born of water in this situation.
And so, I will hold to my understanding that the “water” here is the Word of God. The seed is the Word of God which is conceived in our hearts.
I believe that the following scripture supports my understanding of this:
Quote 1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. God Bless
94Yes I agree that the water is a type of the Word and the Spirit.
We see this in the laver in the Tabernacle which is a type of washing of the word.
The physical part of the laver is a type of the “Word” which carires the “Water” Yet they are one.
Eph 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;And as you say we are born again by the “Word” the incoruptable seed.
But it seems to me that the “Word” and “Spirit” are synonomous because they are one.
So then our Spirit is born again by the Spirit also.
Jn 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.Then he clarifys…
Jn 3:That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
His whole conversation with Nicodemus is about being born a human (flesh) and being born again (Spirit).
So could it be read…
Born of…
water – flesh
and
Spirit – Spirit and Word
Water is the sustainer of all life in both the natural and the Spiritual!
Just some thoughts.
This is one way that I understand it.
Blood is thicker than water. And the blood of Jesus has paid for your sins.
people will argue with you and say that you need to do this and that and this and that to have your sins forgiven.
Brothers and Sisters…its as easy as this… You fall down to your knees, and confess with your mouth and repent with your mouth of your sins, and believe that the blood of Jesus will pay for your sins…and most likely your not only going to get your sins forgiven your going to get your cup filled up as well with the Holy Ghost.
After, this yes you should probably go get baptized. For the sake of not having the church …the body of Christ be divided…I would say go get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, I would now say baptize in the name of Jesus Christ…for the sole purpose of not doing it how the RCC does it. They do it in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. After discovering a great many things about the RCC I would that the church of Christ stayed as far away from any type of doctrine they tried to institute. For, it is becoming quite clear to me that…well you already know that half the things the RCC does is not backed by any scripture, and they just go at will defying the very word of GOD in whatever way they see best fits their needs.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 15 2007,16:24) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2007,02:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 14 2007,16:50) 94 You say…
Quote
Most people probably believe that the “water” to which Jesus refers here is water baptism, and if so, that would mean that no one could enter the the kingdom of God without being bapitized.Just a thought. Basically a man concieved in his mothers womb is in water, the water breaks and the man is born.
Could it be Yeshua was saying that unless you are born of water (the flesh) and of the Spirit you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
I believe you are right that we are born again by the word. The Word is Spirit and life and they agree as one.
Just some thoughts!
Blessings
Hi WJ:Thanks for your comments, but IMHO I don't think that Jesus means the “water” to mean being born out of the placenta because if we are born of the flesh, we are born of the seed of man which is the sperm and not water. Although we break the water when we come out of the womb, we are not born of water in this situation.
And so, I will hold to my understanding that the “water” here is the Word of God. The seed is the Word of God which is conceived in our hearts.
I believe that the following scripture supports my understanding of this:
Quote 1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. God Bless
94Yes I agree that the water is a type of the Word and the Spirit.
We see this in the laver in the Tabernacle which is a type of washing of the word.
The physical part of the laver is a type of the “Word” which carires the “Water” Yet they are one.
Eph 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;And as you say we are born again by the “Word” the incoruptable seed.
But it seems to me that the “Word” and “Spirit” are synonomous because they are one.
So then our Spirit is born again by the Spirit also.
Jn 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.Then he clarifys…
Jn 3:That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
His whole conversation with Nicodemus is about being born a human (flesh) and being born again (Spirit).
So could it be read…
Born of…
water – flesh
and
Spirit – Spirit and Word
Water is the sustainer of all life in both the natural and the Spiritual!
Just some thoughts.
Hi all!I would like to clarify that I dont believe John chapter 3 has anything to do with water baptism.
Also I am not saying that “Flesh and blood” will enter the Kingdom.
Our body shall be changed to be fashioned like his glorious body. 1 Cor 15:35-44, Phil 3:21
It may be the reason Jesus is making this point of being born in the flesh is to say that not only man cannot enter the kingdom without being born again but also demons or fallen spirits will never enter the Kingdom for they were not born of flesh.
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