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Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2005,01:44) Is there anything else?
I've noticed Nick, you've never really commented on any of these points, other than to dismiss them as silly, since that is all you seem capable of doing.WHO TAKES ACTION AGAINST SATAN, “RULER OF THIS WORLD”?
Revelation 12:7-12 says that Michael and his angels would war against Satan and hurl him and his wicked angels out of heaven in connection with the conferring of kingly authority on Christ. Jesus is later depicted as leading the armies of heaven in war against the nations of the world. (Rev. 19:11-16) Hmmmm. Interesting.
Is it not reasonable that Jesus would also be the one to take action against the one he described as “ruler of this world,” Satan the Devil? (John 12:31)
Daniel 12:1 (RS) associates the ‘standing up of Michael’ to act with authority with “a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.” That would certainly fit the experience of the nations when Christ as heavenly executioner takes action against them.
So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.Michael the archangel and Jesus are beginning to look like the same individual. They are beginning to look like they take the same actions. Interesting.
Hi david,
Why should The Son of God have to dirty his hands fighting against Satan's hordes in heaven and casting them to earth if he angelic hosts could do the job without him? His role is King of earth and that is why he is seen leading the charge in Rev 19. Michael is only a servant and will not to become King on earth but the Son of God is.
The rest is guesswork.Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2005,01:46) Another question you refuse to answer: WHO ELSE IS SPOKEN OF AS HAVING ANGELS UNDER SUBJECTION?
Aside from the Creator himself, only one faithful person is spoken of as having angels under subjection—namely, Jesus Christ. (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31) The apostle Paul made specific mention of “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) And Peter described the resurrected Jesus by saying: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.”—1 Peter 3:22.Again, it seems that Michael and Jesus have another thing in common, another specific thing that they share with no one else. Another coincidence perhaps?
Hi david,
Do you not understand heavenly authority? The Lord of hosts sent his Son to earth. The son became fopr a little while lower than the angels[so was not an angel]. While on earth he said he could ask the Father and the Father would send legions of angels to help him.
When he returned in glory to heaven he was raised to the right hand of Power and given complete authority over all, including Michael, under God. Surely you know these things?
Does a centurion command men? Yes . But he in turn is commanded by his Superior Officer and so on up the chain of command.
Do you really think the role of the Son of God is just as an army commander? Michael may have that job under the Son under God..Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2005,01:48) OK, I'd really like your comments on these things Nick. I don't think you've ever commented on any of them specifically. JESUS IS COMMISSIONED TO DESTROY ALL THE NATIONS AT ARMAGEDDON
There are also other correspondencies establishing that Michael is actually the Son of God. Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to “the time of the end” (Da 11:40) and then stated: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 12:1) Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” (Da 12:1) In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon.—Re 11:15; 16:14-16.
Hi david.
Dan 10.13f
” but the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding mefor 21 days;then behold Michael, ONE OF THE CHIEF PRINCES, came to help me….. For I shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia; so I am going forth, and behold the proince of Greece is about to come…Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael , your prince”So there are many princes and Michael is one of the chief one who is powerful and committed in the service of God and the care of God's people.
He is not Jesus Christ the Messiah though. He is far greater.
Did I miss it, or did you answer my question of you smoking somewhere? I'm not implying that you do. It's just you refuse to answer this simple question.
Quote Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2005,01:36)
OK, let's teach some things that are written:JESUS CALLS OUT WITH AN ARCHANGELS VOICE.
At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as “the archangel’s call,” and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael.
It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call “with an archangel’s voice.” Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus’ commanding call to that of someone lesser in authority? Would it Nick?
For example, a king is above a noble. If you have a king, someone in great power and he calls out something of importance, you wouldn’t say: ‘He called out with a nobles voice,’ unless the King was a also a noble. If the king wasn’t a noble, you would say: He called out with the voice of a king.
To say he called out with a nobles voice would be to diminish him, UNLESS HE WAS BOTH A NOBLE AND A KING.
Here's where that “power of reason” comes in that the Bible speaks of. It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14)Let's say this one more time:
If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.
Reasonably, then, it seems at though the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ.Hi david,
Jude 9
“But Michael , the archangel, when he disputes with the devil and argued about the body of Moses..”
So Michael the archangel is an archangel but not necessarily the only one-no mention of his voice raising the dead hereRight, this scripture in itself doesn't indicate that Michael is the only archangel. Or as you say, “not necessarily the only one.” But the fact that archangel is never found in the plural does make one wonder.
Quote 1Thess 4.16
” For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first..”
So when the Lord returns there will be the voice of the archangel and the sound of the trumpet of God. No surprises here. Jesus will neither speak with the voice of an archangel nor sound like the trumpet of God.“The Lord will descend from heaven witha shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God.”
If you read this again, you'll notice that he doesn't have the voice of the trumpet of God, but does descend with the trumpet of God. But he does shout WITH the voice of an archangel. This is what your Bible and other translations say, despite what you prefer to believe.
He shouts or calls WITH an archangels voice. I can't do that. I don't have an archangels voice. Can a regular angel call out with an archangels voice, with the authority of the archangel? No.Quote These are not unexpected accompaniments to such an awesome event. Why should someone so awesome have to announce his own arrival?
Remember the trumpet of God Nick? Perhaps this great trumpet sound announces his arrival, as you say.david.
Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2005,05:35) Is there anything wrong with smoking Nick?
Hi david,
Perhaps you should start a forum on smoking. It does not relate here.Quote Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2005,01:41)
What else can we discern from scripture?“ARCHANGEL” IS NEVER FOUND IN PLURAL IN SCRIPTURE
Interestingly, the expression “archangel” is never found in the plural in the Scriptures, thus implying that there is only one. Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other of these powerful spirit creatures. Who better to do this than his only begotten son?Of course, we know of only one archangel, Michael THE archangel. To speculate that there are others would go beyond what the scriptures tell us, wouldn't it Nick? Archangel means: chief angel. Here again, if we can get past our preconceived ideas about angels taken from who knows where, Jesus seems to fit as being the one in charge of all the other angels.
Hi david,
Daniel tells us Michael is a prince too. Does this mean to you he has several roles or does prince mean archangel? If he had the sole role as the chief angel how could he also fulfill other roles equally as important? And Daniel mentions several other princes including the Prince of Princes, the messiah, Jesus Christ.
Clearly if prince means archangel then:Michael is only one of many
Jesus is not Michael
Jesus is greater than Michael.Yes, Nick, thankyou for pointing out that Michael is called a prince. Hey, so is Jesus.
“Does prince mean archangel,” you ask.
No, archangel means: chief angel.
Prince means prince.Quote If he had the sole role as the chief angel how could he also fulfill other roles equally as important?
While having the sole role as chief angel, how does this limit his other roles? How many roles does Jesus have? How many titles? How many names is he called by? Why limit him Nick?Quote Clearly if prince means archangel then: Michael is only one of many
Jesus is not Michael
Jesus is greater than Michael.Nick, who said prince means archangel? I didn't.
A person can be a chef and a sculptor. Does that mean that chef means sculptor. I fail to understand your logic. Can Jesus not be both a prince (which he is) and the archangel? It seems he does have the abilities.Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2005,05:35) Quote Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2005,01:36)
OK, let's teach some things that are written:JESUS CALLS OUT WITH AN ARCHANGELS VOICE.
At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as “the archangel’s call,” and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael.
It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call “with an archangel’s voice.” Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus’ commanding call to that of someone lesser in authority? Would it Nick?
For example, a king is above a noble. If you have a king, someone in great power and he calls out something of importance, you wouldn’t say: ‘He called out with a nobles voice,’ unless the King was a also a noble. If the king wasn’t a noble, you would say: He called out with the voice of a king.
To say he called out with a nobles voice would be to diminish him, UNLESS HE WAS BOTH A NOBLE AND A KING.
Here's where that “power of reason” comes in that the Bible speaks of. It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14)Let's say this one more time:
If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.
Reasonably, then, it seems at though the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ.Hi david,
Jude 9
“But Michael , the archangel, when he disputes with the devil and argued about the body of Moses..”
So Michael the archangel is an archangel but not necessarily the only one-no mention of his voice raising the dead hereRight, this scripture in itself doesn't indicate that Michael is the only archangel. Or as you say, “not necessarily the only one.” But the fact that archangel is never found in the plural does make one wonder.
Quote 1Thess 4.16
” For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first..”
So when the Lord returns there will be the voice of the archangel and the sound of the trumpet of God. No surprises here. Jesus will neither speak with the voice of an archangel nor sound like the trumpet of God.“The Lord will descend from heaven witha shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God.”
If you read this again, you'll notice that he doesn't have the voice of the trumpet of God, but does descend with the trumpet of God. But he does shout WITH the voice of an archangel. This is what your Bible and other translations say, despite what you prefer to believe.
He shouts or calls WITH an archangels voice. I can't do that. I don't have an archangels voice. Can a regular angel call out with an archangels voice, with the authority of the archangel? No.Quote These are not unexpected accompaniments to such an awesome event. Why should someone so awesome have to announce his own arrival?
Remember the trumpet of God Nick? Perhaps this great trumpet sound announces his arrival, as you say.david.
No david,
Again you read into scripture what is not there . The voice accompanies his arrival but it does not say it is his voice that is heard. He arrives with;The voice of the archangel
and
The trumpet of GodWhat King announces his own arrival?
You have added “he calls or shouts” that is not written but presumed.
But smoking does belong here. I'm trying to compare it to something, as I've already told you.
You don't smoke and refuse to explain that smoking is wrong.
I understand why, but I'll say it out loud so everyone else can enjoy:You continually accuse me of speculation because nowhere does the Bible say, Michael is Jesus, although it does indicate this.
Similarly, no where does the Bible say specifically that smoking is wrong. But it says many many other things that can help us reason things out. The Bible tells us we have the “power of reason.” Paul liked to reason with people from the scriptures. Similarly, we can reason out that smoking is wrong based on what the Bible says. Is this speculation or reasoning?
Quote No david,
Again you read into scripture what is not there . The voice accompanies his arrival but it does not say it is his voice that is heard. He arrives with;The voice of the archangel
and
The trumpet of GodWhat King announces his own arrival?
You have added “he calls or shouts” that is not written but presumed.
Does the voice accompany his arrival, or is it his voice?
1 Thessalonians 4:16 (New International Version)
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.1 Thessalonians 4:16 (New American Standard Bible)
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.1 Thessalonians 4:16 (Amplified Bible)
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.1 Thessalonians 4:16 (New Living Translation)
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves.1 Thessalonians 4:16 (King James Version)
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1 Thessalonians 4:16 (English Standard Version)
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.1 Thessalonians 4:16 (American Standard Version)
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;Unless you are trying to mold this into some already fashioned belief, just reading it should be clear.
Quote Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2005,01:46)
Another question you refuse to answer:WHO ELSE IS SPOKEN OF AS HAVING ANGELS UNDER SUBJECTION?
Aside from the Creator himself, only one faithful person is spoken of as having angels under subjection—namely, Jesus Christ. (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31) The apostle Paul made specific mention of “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) And Peter described the resurrected Jesus by saying: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.”—1 Peter 3:22.Again, it seems that Michael and Jesus have another thing in common, another specific thing that they share with no one else. Another coincidence perhaps?
Hi david,
Do you not understand heavenly authority? The Lord of hosts sent his Son to earth. The son became fopr a little while lower than the angels[so was not an angel]. While on earth he said he could ask the Father and the Father would send legions of angels to help him.
When he returned in glory to heaven he was raised to the right hand of Power and given complete authority over all, including Michael, under God. Surely you know these things?
Does a centurion command men? Yes . But he in turn is commanded by his Superior Officer and so on up the chain of command.
Do you really think the role of the Son of God is just as an army commander? Michael may have that job under the Son under God..Nick, you say: “The son became fopr a little while lower than the angels[so was not an angel].”
Right, the son became a human, and hence lower than the angels. If an angel became a human, would he not be lower than the angels? Yes.Quote While on earth he said he could ask the Father and the Father would send legions of angels to help him.
Yes, and?Quote When he returned in glory to heaven he was raised to the right hand of Power and given complete authority over all, including Michael, under God.
Yes, he was given complete authority over all. Was he given complete authority over the Word? No, he was the Word. Similarly, he is called Michael in heaven. Your statement here is one where you jump to the conclusion. You're trying to prove that Jesus isn't Michael. Simply saying it doesn't make it so. Surely you know this?Quote Does a centurion command men? Yes . But he in turn is commanded by his Superior Officer and so on up the chain of command.
Do you really think the role of the Son of God is just as an army commander? Michael may have that job under the Son under God..
No, I definitely don't. But it is one of the many roles he takes on. Jehovah is called “Jehovah of armies” 276 times in the Bible. Certain, this portrays him a certain way. He is a creator, a father, etc. He is also Jehovah of armies. Nick, you are a father. You also are many many other things. Do you get it?Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2005,05:53) Quote No david,
Again you read into scripture what is not there . The voice accompanies his arrival but it does not say it is his voice that is heard. He arrives with;The voice of the archangel
and
The trumpet of GodWhat King announces his own arrival?
You have added “he calls or shouts” that is not written but presumed.
Does the voice accompany his arrival, or is it his voice?
1 Thessalonians 4:16 (New International Version)
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.1 Thessalonians 4:16 (New American Standard Bible)
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.1 Thessalonians 4:16 (Amplified Bible)
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.1 Thessalonians 4:16 (New Living Translation)
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves.1 Thessalonians 4:16 (King James Version)
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1 Thessalonians 4:16 (English Standard Version)
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.1 Thessalonians 4:16 (American Standard Version)
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;Unless you are trying to mold this into some already fashioned belief, just reading it should be clear.
Hi david,
What is clear to you is fanciful to most. To suggest the voice of the archangel comes from the Lord himself is frankly bizarre.Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2005,06:02) Quote Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2005,01:46)
Another question you refuse to answer:WHO ELSE IS SPOKEN OF AS HAVING ANGELS UNDER SUBJECTION?
Aside from the Creator himself, only one faithful person is spoken of as having angels under subjection—namely, Jesus Christ. (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31) The apostle Paul made specific mention of “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) And Peter described the resurrected Jesus by saying: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.”—1 Peter 3:22.Again, it seems that Michael and Jesus have another thing in common, another specific thing that they share with no one else. Another coincidence perhaps?
Hi david,
Do you not understand heavenly authority? The Lord of hosts sent his Son to earth. The son became fopr a little while lower than the angels[so was not an angel]. While on earth he said he could ask the Father and the Father would send legions of angels to help him.
When he returned in glory to heaven he was raised to the right hand of Power and given complete authority over all, including Michael, under God. Surely you know these things?
Does a centurion command men? Yes . But he in turn is commanded by his Superior Officer and so on up the chain of command.
Do you really think the role of the Son of God is just as an army commander? Michael may have that job under the Son under God..Nick, you say: “The son became fopr a little while lower than the angels[so was not an angel].”
Right, the son became a human, and hence lower than the angels. If an angel became a human, would he not be lower than the angels? Yes.Quote While on earth he said he could ask the Father and the Father would send legions of angels to help him.
Yes, and?Quote When he returned in glory to heaven he was raised to the right hand of Power and given complete authority over all, including Michael, under God.
Yes, he was given complete authority over all. Was he given complete authority over the Word? No, he was the Word. Similarly, he is called Michael in heaven. Your statement here is one where you jump to the conclusion. You're trying to prove that Jesus isn't Michael. Simply saying it doesn't make it so. Surely you know this?Quote Does a centurion command men? Yes . But he in turn is commanded by his Superior Officer and so on up the chain of command.
Do you really think the role of the Son of God is just as an army commander? Michael may have that job under the Son under God..
No, I definitely don't. But it is one of the many roles he takes on. Jehovah is called “Jehovah of armies” 276 times in the Bible. Certain, this portrays him a certain way. He is a creator, a father, etc. He is also Jehovah of armies. Nick, you are a father. You also are many many other things. Do you get it?
Hi david,
If he was lower than the angels then
he
was
not
an
angel.Hi david,
If Jesus was an angel scripture would have said
“he became for a little while lower than the REST OF the angels”
It does not .
He did not become lower than himself.Hi david,
Matt 24.30f
” And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together his elect from the four winds , from one end of the sky to the other”
Matt 25 31f
” But when the Son of Man comes in his glory and with all the angels with him..”
Mk 13.27
” And he will send forth the angels, and they will gather his elect from the four winds..”
Matt 13.49
“..the angels will come forth and take the wicked out from among the righteous..”
Rev 19 13.f
” ..and his name is called the Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following him on white horses..”Jesus Christ is the Son of Man. He is the Son of God who has partaken of flesh. No angel has partaken of flesh. No angel IS a son of man though they are often portrayed as looking like a son of man in Daniel and Rev 14.14f.
The return of Jesus is always shown with his angelic servants so no surprise that the voice of the archangel announces his arrival.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 26 2005,16:55) Hi david, If Jesus was an angel scripture would have said
“he became for a little while lower than the REST OF the angels”
It does not .
He did not become lower than himself.
Nick,I don't understand. What is it with Michael? The Word was in the beginning and everything was created by the Word. Would not that include Michael? If the Word were Michale then Michale created Michael. With the voice of an archangel. So! Jesus will be anounced by an archangel. Would not that keep in context that the Word created Michael. Michael creating himself then announceing the arrival of himself. I don't see the argument, oh that's right debate. Does anybody ever win a debate?
Am I missing something?
Hi kenrch,
The bible does not say the Word created anything. God is the creator who created everything including Michael, through Christ.
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