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See page 41, and the silence that followed.
Nick, if you wish to discuss the Bible, let me know.1 Thessalonians 4:16 (New International Version)
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.1 Thessalonians 4:16 (New American Standard Bible)
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.1 Thessalonians 4:16 (Amplified Bible)
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.1 Thessalonians 4:16 (New Living Translation)
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves.1 Thessalonians 4:16 (King James Version)
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1 Thessalonians 4:16 (English Standard Version)
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.1 Thessalonians 4:16 (American Standard Version)
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;While on earth as a human, Jesus performed several resurrections. In doing so, he used his voice to utter commanding calls. For example, when resurrecting the dead son of a widow in the city of Nain, he said:
“Young man, I say to you, Get up!” (Luke 7:14, 15)
Later, just before resurrecting his friend Lazarus, Jesus
“cried out with a loud voice: ‘Lazarus, COME ON OUT!’” (John 11:43)
In the future, it is Jehovah’s will for JESUS to resurrect the dead, but on a greater scale. (John 6:38-40)
Instead of saying Lazarus, “come on out” he will be saying this to many.
““Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when THE DEAD WILL HEAR THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD and those who have given heed will LIVE. For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is. Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will HEAR HIS [JESUS] VOICE and COME OUT…” (John 5:25-29)
The dead are raised. They hear a voice. Who's voice? John 5:25-29 says they “will HEAR HIS [JESUS'] VOICE AND COME OUT….” It says “THE DEAD WILL HEAR THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD and . . . LIVE.
So, it is unquestionably Jesus voice that raises them from the dead, as scripture plainly states.
Yet, notice the second half of 1 Thess 4:16:
“because the Lord [JESUS] himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s VOICE and with God's trumpet, and THOSE WHO ARE DEAD in union with Christ will RISE first.”In my mind, there can be no question that it is Jesus' voice that raises the dead, as the scriptures state in John.
Here we have Jesus descending from heaven, with a commanding call, with an archangels voice, and the dead rise. But we know that the dead rise with Jesus VOICE. So is it just comparing his voice to that of an archangels? Maybe archangels have really loud voices. Well, first, “archangel” is never used in plural in the Bible. “Archangels” are never mentioned. “Arch” means “cheif” or “primary.” “Angel” means, ..angel, or messenger. They are the same word.
Anyway, If Jesus is not the archangel in this event and he is superior to the archangel, then why would he perform this act as though he was someone of lower rank?
It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call “with an archangel’s voice.” Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus’ commanding call to that of someone lesser in authority?
Example: A king is above a noble. Would it make sense to have a great king come out and say he ordered his men with a commanding call, with the voice of a noble.
No, A king is above a noble. Why compare a kings voice to a nobles? Jesus authority is greater than everyone's but God. He has been given all authority in heaven and earth. It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14)
If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.WHO TAKES ACTION AGAINST SATAN, “RULER OF THIS WORLD”?
Revelation 12:7-12 says that Michael and his angels would war against Satan and hurl him and his wicked angels out of heaven in connection with the conferring of kingly authority on Christ. Jesus is later depicted as leading the armies of heaven in war against the nations of the world. (Rev. 19:11-16)
REVELATION 12:7
“And war broke out in heaven: Mícha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled”
REVELATION 19:11-14
“And I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. His eyes are a fiery flame, and upon his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God. Also, the armies that were in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen.”
Is it not reasonable that Jesus would also be the one to take action against the one he described as “ruler of this world,” Satan the Devil? (John 12:31)
Daniel 12:1 (RS) associates the ‘standing up of Michael’ to act with authority with “a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.” That would certainly fit the experience of the nations when Christ as heavenly executioner takes action against them.
So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.
Jesus himself is the one who leads the armies of Heaven to judge and make war against Satan! Which brings us to our next point.
***
Since Jesus is the one prophesied to crush Satan’s head, and since he accomplishes all these other judgment acts, it is only logical to conclude that he would lead heaven’s armies in the casting of Satan out of heaven. Hence, the conquering Michael referred to in Revelation 12 must be Jesus, who was told by Jehovah to “go subduing in the midst of [his] enemies.”—Psalm 110:1, 2; Acts 2:34, 35.WHO ELSE IS SPOKEN OF AS HAVING ANGELS UNDER SUBJECTION?
Aside from the Creator himself, only one faithful person is spoken of as having angels under subjection—namely, Jesus Christ.
MATTHEW 24:31
“And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.”
2 THESSALONIANS 1:7-10
“but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from h
eaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God.”
MATTHEW 16:27
“For the Son of man is destined to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will recompense each one according to his behavior.”
MATTHEW 25:31,41
““When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. . . .Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.””
MARK 8:38
“For whoever becomes ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man will also be ashamed of him when he arrives in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.””
MATTHEW 13:41
“The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness,”
The apostle Paul made specific mention of “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) And Peter described the resurrected Jesus by saying: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.”—1 Peter 3:22.
The Bible states that war broke out in heaven and that “Michael and HIS angels battled with the dragon….and its angels.” (Rev 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels.
Revelation also describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Rev 19:14-16) It is “his army” of angels. (Rev 19:19) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels” (2 Thess 1:7; Mat 16:27; 24:31; 1 Pet 3:22) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Mat 13:41) Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven–one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus–it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.JESUS IS COMMISSIONED TO DESTROY ALL THE NATIONS AT ARMAGEDDON
Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to “the time of the end” (Da 11:40) and then stated: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 12:1) Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” (Da 12:1) In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon.—Re 11:15; 16:14-16.Yes, there are other angelic creatures of high rank, such as seraphs and cherubs. (Genesis 3:24; Isaiah 6:2) Yet, the Scriptures point to the resurrected Jesus Christ as the chief of all angels—Michael the archangel.
The question comes down to this:
If I make these statements:
1. Jimmy is the one who stole my suitcase.
2. The architect stole my suitcase.Am I allowed to conclude that Jimmy is an architect? Nowhere does it explicitely say that Jimmy is an architect?.
3. Jimmy is in charge of the builders.
4. An architect is in charge of the builders.5. Jimmy is the one who is going to see the building constructed.
6. The architect is in charge of the building.Nowhere are we told that Jimmy is the architect. But if we believe they are not the same one, then this means there are two that have the exact same role. And which is more likely? That is the question.
It's at Jesus voice that the dead are raised. It's not a speculation. It's a fact.
““Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when THE DEAD WILL HEAR THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD and those who have given heed will LIVE. For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is. Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will HEAR HIS [JESUS] VOICE and COME OUT…” (John 5:25-29)
And, I know it's a fact you are hiding from.
Hi David,
I know you prefer to analyse one verse rather than seek scriptural confirmation from others as scripture advises so let us look at your one verse.1 Thessalonians 4:16 (King James Version)
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,”
So Christ will come down and shout.
Those who are alive in the Spirit and who know the shepherd will awake.“with the voice of the archangel “
So he does not come alone but also with the hosts of heaven headed by the Archangel who also calls out commands. Along with his shout there is also the voice of the archangel.
There is no suggestion we should tie the two parts of the verse together to suggest that Jesus calls using an archangel's voice as that would be folly. There are much easier ways for scripture to say that Christ is any sort of angel than this fanciful idea but it never does and Hebrews even contrasts him with them
“With” means “with” and not “using”
Scripture does not use words unnecessarily and to suggest that to use an archangel's voice would make him an archangel anyway has no comparable use anywhere in the bible.
God has used the voice of a donkey before and the voices of men without becoming them.
“and with the trump of God:”
Again there is the sound of the trump of God.
If Jesus is proved to be an archangel by the removal of the comma and fanciful conjunction of the previous two verses then you must also say he is the trump of God by the same foolish logic.“and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”
So we see the first resurrection.
Come out of her.
So, I make a post with about 30 scriptures and you say:
“Hi david,
A thousand speculations taken together do not form one fact.”Then, thinking that was too complex, I pointed out one scripture, and you say:
“I know you prefer to analyse one verse rather than seek scriptural confirmation from others as scripture advises…”Nick, you are truly a special human being.
Quote So he does not come alone but also with the hosts of heaven headed by the Archangel who also calls out commands. Along with his shout there is also the voice of the archangel. Nick, since you constantly are accusing me of “inference” this demands that you not infer yourself.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 (King James Version)
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Hi david,
It is better to address the answer given.
Is the trump of God also the voice of the archangel and the shout of Jesus?First, please start calling it a trumpet. Old english bothers me, and creates confusion.
Second, it is clear and obvious that it is Jehovah's will for his son to resurrect the dead, and we are specifically told that on hearing the “voice” of Jesus, they will rise from the dead. (John 5:25-29)
So we know that when we read this:
Jesus “shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”
it is Jesus' voice that raises the dead.Hi david,
So the voice of the archangel and the sound of the trumpet of God accompanies that of the angel's commander and the Lord of all under God, Jesus Christ?Hi colter,
In another thread you said
“Adam and Eve were incarnate spiritual beings on an evolutionary world, but they did not remain loyal to the Father though they latter repented. Jesus of Nazareth, who was Michael incarnate, is the co-creator of all these subordinate beings.Lucifer, Satan and the “prince of this world” were all subordinate spiritual beings co-created by Christ Michael.”
It it written that Michael is Jesus? No. The JWs have made this unlikely connection by melding together some verses but it is no more likely than him being Moses or Gabriel. We should not add to scripture or infer from scripture then teach what is not written.
Hi,
When Jesus comes back with his armies his voice, and in another place, the voice of the archangel is said to be heard.So from this the JWs have derived that Jesus must be an archangel called Michael.
I am sure many voices will be heard and even a superficial study of Hebrews shows the contrasts between Jesus, the monogenes son of God, and any of the angel/servants.
Hi Nick,
What's so different your doctrine from that of JW?
They believe that Jesus was Michael the archangel before his birth on this earth and you also believe that Jesus was existing as some spirit being prior to his birth which you have not confirmed so far as to what type of being he was.
Even all those who believe the pre-existence of Jesus you don't have any right to question the belief of JW.
Take care
AdamThat is the verse you use as 'Mantra', but never tell us in what form and being he was. The only difference with you and JW as I told.
Hi GM,
If you cannot define clearly his form would that matter?
But we should respect the Son of God.
Even demons did.Quote (david @ Nov. 15 2005,17:30) So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.
Why was Michael's name changed to Jesus when he came to earth? Why not just continue to call him Michael? I don't get it.So what you are saying is that we will not see “Jesus” any longer. It is “Michael” that we will see on that Day?
After Jesus was resurrected, the disciples still knew him as Jesus. Why didn't he become Michael after the resurrection?
Too many questions on this….
Hi not3,
The watchtower said so.
The JWs only need one misunderstood verse to pronounce a doctrine.
They should check out 2Cor 13Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 07 2008,17:05) Hi GM,
If you cannot define clearly his form would that matter?
But we should respect the Son of God.
Even demons did.
Hi Nick,
There lies the logic that you are creating a being which is not known to Bible. Thereby you are creating confusion among others by maikg Jesus' pre-existence which also the historical Arians wanted to prove and failed.The organisation that says Jesus is Michael is the same organisation that said Jesus 2nd coming was 1914. But Jesus said in Matthew 24:27:
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.So if they got the wrong date, then what are the chances that this teaching is right?
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