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I am a curious teenager, I read scripture daily and am very curious. I do not accept the trinity, but do wonder, is Jesus really Michael the Archangel? Is there enough evidence to support it? Somebody please reply.
Hi jbl,
I think there is actually NO Biblical evidence to support it. Here is one of many refutations of the JW premise that Jesus and the archangel Michael are one and the same:Colossians 1:16
For by him [Jesus]all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.John 1:3
3All things were made by him[Jesus]; and without him was not any thing made that was made.According to the NT writers Paul and John Jesus created all things, an unqualified statement. Therefore, He Himself cannot possibly be both a created thing (as all angels are) and a creator at the same time. He cannot logically create Himself before He existed.
Be well
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 12 2005,23:24) Hi jbl,
I think there is actually NO Biblical evidence to support it. Here is one of many refutations of the JW premise that Jesus and the archangel Michael are one and the same:Colossians 1:16
For by him [Jesus]all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.John 1:3
3All things were made by him[Jesus]; and without him was not any thing made that was made.According to the NT writers Paul and John Jesus created all things, an unqualified statement. Therefore, He Himself cannot possibly be both a created thing (as all angels are) and a creator at the same time. He cannot logically create Himself before He existed.
Be well
Question: Jesus said that He is the beginning of the creation of God. If Jesus is the beginning of creation, then He is the first created.
If He is the first created then Col. 1:15 is concuring with Rev. 3:14. If that be so then Col. 1:16 is saying that He is the first and everything else He created.
Please explain!Jesus Christ is the son of God.
Michael is an angel. There are no scriptures that say they are the same person.
There are scriptures that give them both similar qualities or titles. Prince is one example.
Funny thing is that Trinitarians make the same error in that they see common qualities of God and Jesus and conclude that they are the same God. But do we not say things like he has your mothers eyes etc. Even in our everyday language we talk of 2 people being like each other without confusing them as the same person or entity. It also makes perfect sense that Jesus would be like God and Michael would be like Christ.
If people learned to distinguish beween quality/nature and persons/people, there would certainly be better understanding of scripture.
There is no scripture that I know of that says Jesus is/was Michael the Archangel.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 14 2005,09:20) Jesus Christ is the son of God. Michael is an angel. There are no scriptures that say they are the same person.
There are scriptures that give them both similar qualities or titles. Prince is one example.
Funny thing is that Trinitarians make the same error in that they see common qualities of God and Jesus and conclude that they are the same God. But do we not say things like he has your mothers eyes etc. Even in our everyday language we talk of 2 people beling like each other without confusing them as the same person or entity. It also makes perfect sense that Jesus would be liek God and Michael would be like Christ.
If people learned to distinguish beween quality/nature and persons/people, there would certainly be better understanding of scripture.
There is no scripture that I know of that says Jesus is/was Michael the Archangel.
t8,Was Jesus the first creation of God?
The reason why I believe Michael and Jesus are the same is because there is a huge amount of Scriptural support that teach they are the same. The problem is that the identity of the Son of God is a mystery that only the Father can reveal to those who seek Him for the answer.
The answer to the question is so important that eternal life is bound up in the answer.
John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
There is a question that was asked in the OT that can be answered by those who study to find the answer. The question goes like this.
Proverbs 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if you know?
By the way, I'm not a Jehovah Witness just in case someone was wondering.
Many blessings
Quote (k4c @ Nov. 15 2005,00:24) The reason why I believe Michael and Jesus are the same is because there is a huge amount of Scriptural support that teach they are the same. The problem is that the identity of the Son of God is a mystery that only the Father can reveal to those who seek Him for the answer. The answer to the question is so important that eternal life is bound up in the answer.
John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
There is a question that was asked in the OT that can be answered by those who study to find the answer. The question goes like this.
Proverbs 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if you know?
By the way, I'm not a Jehovah Witness just in case someone was wondering.
Many blessings
Ok, you must believe that Jesus was created, only His name was Michael!
God frequently changed names for people when they took on different roles. Jesus Christ has been given many titles, all fitting. The name Michael means: “Who is like God?”
k4c, I was wondering why exactly you do believe that Michael the archangel is Jesus?
Is Jesus Christ the same person as Michael the archangel?
According to the Bible, there are millions of angelic creatures inhabiting the spirit realm. (Daniel 7:9, 10; Revelation 5:11) From beginning to end, the Scriptures make hundreds of references to the angels that remain loyal to God. Yet, only two of these spirit creatures are mentioned by name. One is the angel Gabriel, who personally delivered messages from God to three different individuals over a period of some 600 years. (Daniel 9:20-22; Luke 1:8-19, 26-28) The other angel mentioned by name in the Bible is Michael.
Michael is clearly an outstanding angel. For example, in the book of Daniel, Michael is described as fighting wicked demons in behalf of Jehovah’s people. (Daniel 10:13; 12:1) In the inspired letter of Jude, Michael confronts Satan in a dispute over Moses’ body. (Jude 9) The book of Revelation shows that Michael wars with Satan and his demons and hurls them out of heaven. (Revelation 12:7-9) No other angel is portrayed as having such great power and authority over God’s enemies. It is no wonder, then, that the Bible appropriately refers to Michael as “the archangel,” the prefix “arch” meaning “chief,” or “principal.”The name of this Michael appears only five times in the Bible. The glorious spirit person who bears the name is referred to as “one of the chief princes,” “the great prince who has charge of your [Daniel’s] people,” and as “the archangel.” (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9, RS) Michael means “Who Is Like God?” The name evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah’s sovereignty and destroying God’s enemies.
At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as “the archangel’s call,” and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael.
It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call “with an archangel’s voice.”
Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus’ commanding call to that of someone lesser in authority?
It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14)
If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.
Reasonably, then, the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ.Interestingly, the expression “archangel” is never found in the plural in the Scriptures, thus implying that there is only one. Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels.
Revelation 12:7-12 says that Michael and his angels would war against Satan and hurl him and his wicked angels out of heaven in connection with the conferring of kingly authority on Christ. Jesus is later depicted as leading the armies of heaven in war against the nations of the world. (Rev. 19:11-16) Is it not reasonable that Jesus would also be the one to take action against the one he described as “ruler of this world,” Satan the Devil? (John 12:31) Daniel 12:1 (RS) associates the ‘standing up of Michael’ to act with authority with “a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.” That would certainly fit the experience of the nations when Christ as heavenly executioner takes action against them. So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.Aside from the Creator himself, only one faithful person is spoken of as having angels under subjection—namely, Jesus Christ. (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31) The apostle Paul made specific mention of “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) And Peter described the resurrected Jesus by saying: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.”—1 Peter 3:22.
There are also other correspondencies establishing that Michael is actually the Son of God. Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to “the time of the end” (Da 11:40) and then stated: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 12:1) Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” (Da 12:1) In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon.—Re 11:15; 16:14-16.
While there is no statement in the Bible that categorically identifies Michael the archangel as Jesus, there is one scripture that links Jesus with the office of archangel.
In his prehuman existence Jesus was called “the Word.” (Joh 1:1) He also had the personal name Michael. By retaining the name Jesus after his resurrection (Ac 9:5), “the Word” shows that he is identical with the Son of God on earth. His resuming his heavenly name Michael and his title (or name) “The Word of God” (Re 19:13) ties him in with his prehuman existence. The very name Michael, asking as it does, “Who Is Like God?” points to the fact that Jehovah God is without like, or equal, and that Michael his archangel is his great Champion or Vindicator.
Yes, there are other angelic creatures of high rank, such as seraphs and cherubs. (Genesis 3:24; Isaiah 6:2) Yet, the Scriptures point to the resurrected Jesus Christ as the chief of all angels—Michael the archangel.
I’ve had this conversation before. This is as far as it ever goes.
david
Today, Michael is a common name for people to have. People tend to think that Jesus is quite a special name and he can't have another name. It was quite a common name when he was on earth.
Sometimes for a particular purpose names were changed or a person might be given an additional name. While dying, Rachel called her newborn son Ben-oni (meaning “Son of My Mourning”), but her bereaved husband Jacob chose to name him Benjamin (Son of the Right Hand). (Ge 35:16-18) Jehovah changed the name of Abram to Abraham (Father of a Crowd (Multitude)) and that of Sarai (possibly, Contentious) to Sarah (Princess), both new names being prophetic. (Ge 17:5, 6, 15, 16) Because of his perseverance in grappling with an angel, Jacob was told: “Your name will no longer be called Jacob but Israel [Contender (Perseverer) With God; or, God Contends], for you have contended with God and with men so that you at last prevailed.” (Ge 32:28) This change in name was a token of God’s blessing and was later confirmed. (Ge 35:10) Evidently, therefore, when the Scriptures prophetically speak of “a new name,” the reference is to a name that would appropriately represent its bearer.—Isa 62:2; 65:15; Re 3:12.
An event in a person’s later life sometimes provided the basis for giving a new name to a person. Esau, for example, got his name Edom (meaning “Red”) from the red lentil stew for which he sold his birthright.—Ge 25:30-34.
The Bible contains the personal names of only two angels, Gabriel (meaning “Able-Bodied One of God”) and Michael (Who Is Like God?). Perhaps so as not to receive undue honor or veneration, angels at times did not reveal their names to persons to whom they appeared.—Ge 32:29; Jg 13:17, 18.
david
Angels.
Both the Hebrew mal·´akh´ and the Greek ag´ge·los literally mean “messenger.” From the first book of the Bible to the last, these words occur nearly 400 times. When spirit messengers are indicated, the words are translated “angels,” but if the reference definitely is to human creatures, the rendering is “messengers.” (Ge 16:7; 32:3; Jas 2:25; Re 22:8.) However, in the highly symbolic book of Revelation certain references to ‘angels’ may apply to human creatures.—Re 2:1, 8, 12, 18; 3:1, 7, 14.Angels are sometimes termed spirits; that which is spirit is invisible and powerful. Thus we read: “A spirit came out and stood before Jehovah”; “Are they not all spirits for public service?” (1Ki 22:21; Heb 1:14) Having invisible spiritual bodies, they make their abode “in the heavens.” (Mr 12:25; 1Co 15:44, 50) They are also termed “sons of the true God,” “morning stars,” and “holy myriads” (or “holy ones”).—Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; De 33:2.
The angels were individually created by Jehovah through his firstborn Son, “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Mt 22:30; Re 3:14) “By means of him [this firstborn Son, the Word] all other things were created in the heavens . . . the things invisible . . . Also, he is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist.” (Col 1:15-17; Joh 1:1-3) The angels were created long before man’s appearance, for at the ‘founding of the earth’ “the morning stars joyfully cried out together, and all the sons of God began shouting in applause.”—Job 38:4-7.
In reply to Is 1:18:
Does Colossians 1:16, 17 (RS) exclude Jesus from having been created, when it says “in him all things were created . . . all things were created through him and for him”? The Greek word here rendered “all things” is pan´ta, an inflected form of pas.
At Luke 13:2, RS renders this “all . . . other”;
JB reads “any other”;
NE says “anyone else.” (See also Luke 21:29 in NE and Philippians 2:21 in JB.)
In harmony with everything else that the Bible says regarding the Son, NW assigns the same meaning to pan´ta at Colossians 1:16, 17 so that it reads, in part, “by means of him all other things were created . . . All other things have been created through him and for him.” Thus he is shown to be a created being, part of the creation produced by God.Of course he did not create himself. He was the first spirit creature created.
Can he be described as a “messenger”? Numerous times, we are told that he was “sent forth” by God. He himself said that he was born into the world to “bear witness to the truth,” the truth about God's kingdom.
“Also to other cities I must declare the good news of the kingdom of God, because for this I was sent forth.” (Luke 4:43)david
Hi david,
Are you leading to the conclusion that the only begotten son was not distinct from the angels but one of them? Did any angel have his abilities and be begotten? You seem to denigrate his own glory which John described in Jn 1.14
“We saw his glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth”I have never seen you tell us of anything that does not come from your doctrine david. Does that you mean that you belong to the JWs rather than the people of the bible?
The question of Michael and Jesus being the same is something that will take some time to see in the Scriptures. In doing so there will be many things that we will need to learn as well as unlearn.
Many of the things we have been taught over the years can stop us from growing in the mysteries of God. As we look at this topic I would like to go step by step so that we don't get over loaded with information. I don't have much time this morning to get into too much because I need to get ready for work.
One of the biggest hurtles to get over in understanding Jesus and Michael is the arugment that Jesus can't be Michael because Jesus is not a created being.
This is true…Jesus is not a created being He is the only birthed Son of God. Angels were created and so wasn't Adam. Everything was created by God with the ability to reproduce itself according to its own kind. Adam and Eve were created but everyone after Adam and Eve was birthed through Adam and Eve.
Michael took on the form of man through His miraculous birth through Mary. He lowered Himself and became like us as He took on sinful flesh. Michael gave up His glory as an angelic being and became a man for the purpose of suffering death.
Once Michael made this commitment in becoming man there would be no turning back. If He sinned even once He would never again regain His glory with His Father.
Sinless Michael the Son of God became Jesus through His natural birth giving up His angelic glory.
So you are right when you say that Jesus is not a created being, He is the only birthed Son of God whereas mankind (Adam) was a created son of God in the same way angels are created sons of God. No other man on this earth can say He is the only birthed Son of God, except for Jesus.
I have to stop here for now…
Many blessing
Quote (david @ Nov. 15 2005,06:30) Is Jesus Christ the same person as Michael the archangel?
According to the Bible, there are millions of angelic creatures inhabiting the spirit realm. (Daniel 7:9, 10; Revelation 5:11) From beginning to end, the Scriptures make hundreds of references to the angels that remain loyal to God. Yet, only two of these spirit creatures are mentioned by name. One is the angel Gabriel, who personally delivered messages from God to three different individuals over a period of some 600 years. (Daniel 9:20-22; Luke 1:8-19, 26-28) The other angel mentioned by name in the Bible is Michael.
Michael is clearly an outstanding angel. For example, in the book of Daniel, Michael is described as fighting wicked demons in behalf of Jehovah’s people. (Daniel 10:13; 12:1) In the inspired letter of Jude, Michael confronts Satan in a dispute over Moses’ body. (Jude 9) The book of Revelation shows that Michael wars with Satan and his demons and hurls them out of heaven. (Revelation 12:7-9) No other angel is portrayed as having such great power and authority over God’s enemies. It is no wonder, then, that the Bible appropriately refers to Michael as “the archangel,” the prefix “arch” meaning “chief,” or “principal.”The name of this Michael appears only five times in the Bible. The glorious spirit person who bears the name is referred to as “one of the chief princes,” “the great prince who has charge of your [Daniel’s] people,” and as “the archangel.” (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9, RS) Michael means “Who Is Like God?” The name evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah’s sovereignty and destroying God’s enemies.
At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as “the archangel’s call,” and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael.
It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call “with an archangel’s voice.”
Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus’ commanding call to that of someone lesser in authority?
It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14)
If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.
Reasonably, then, the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ.Interestingly, the expression “archangel” is never found in the plural in the Scriptures, thus implying that there is only one. Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels.
Revelation 12:7-12 says that Michael and his angels would war against Satan and hurl him and his wicked angels out of heaven in connection with the conferring of kingly authority on Christ. Jesus is later depicted as leading the armies of heaven in war against the nations of the world. (Rev. 19:11-16) Is it not reasonable that Jesus would also be the one to take action against the one he described as “ruler of this world,” Satan the Devil? (John 12:31) Daniel 12:1 (RS) associates the ‘standing up of Michael’ to act with authority with “a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.” That would certainly fit the experience of the nations when Christ as heavenly executioner takes action against them. So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.Aside from the Creator himself, only one faithful person is spoken of as having angels under subjection—namely, Jesus Christ. (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31) The apostle Paul made specific mention of “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) And Peter described the resurrected Jesus by saying: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.”—1 Peter 3:22.
There are also other correspondencies establishing that Michael is actually the Son of God. Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to “the time of the end” (Da 11:40) and then stated: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 12:1) Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” (Da 12:1) In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon.—Re 11:15; 16:14-16.
While there is no statement in the Bible that categorically identifies Michael the archangel as Jesus, there is one scripture that links Jesus with the office of archangel.
In his prehuman existence Jesus was called “the Word.” (Joh 1:1) He also had the personal name Michael. By retaining the name Jesus after his resurrection (Ac 9:5), “the Word” shows that he is identical with the Son of God on earth. His resuming his heavenly name Michael and his title (or name) “The Word of God” (Re 19:13) ties him in with his prehuman existence. The very name Michael, asking as it does, “Who Is Like God?” points to the fact that Jehovah God is without like, or equal, and that Michael his archangel is his great Champion or Vindicator.
Yes, there are other angelic creatures of high rank, such as seraphs and cherubs. (Genesis 3:24; Isaiah 6:2) Yet, the Scriptures point to the resurrected Jesus Christ as the chief of all angels—Michael the archangel.
I’ve had this conversation before. This is as far as it ever goes.
david
If all things were created by Michael then why is Michael just an arcangel?(Col. 1:16, John 1:3)Michael is ONE of the arcangels.
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of PersiaThat would means that their are at least some of the angels of the same rank! Would it not?
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Does this scripture mean that Michael the arcangel is Jesus and decending or does it mean that Michael the ark angel is announcing the 2nd comming of Jesus. Even the president of the US is announced. Kings and princes are announced. Would not the King of kings and Lord of lords also be announced?
If Jesus is Michael an arcangel will we judge him?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? We are to be above the angels as Jesus is!(Psa 45:7) Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Is this scripture speaking of an arcangel! …therefore God YOUR God… is Michael an angel or God? What say ye?Hi david,
You quote reason and logic.
Are these comparable to revelation to you too? Can it not lead into foolish speculation and presumption?Is that not what has lead to trinity teaching that you proudly oppose?
You say Michael is “one of the chief princes” and then claim he is the only leader and in authority over angels just because he is the only named archangel. What of Gabriel?. Who then are these other princes that he is one of? Who are the principalities and powers and authorities?
Quote Are you leading to the conclusion that the only begotten son was not distinct from the angels but one of them?
No. I am not. Jesus was the only begotten son. He was the first spirit creature created, and was created directly by Jehovah. The only one who was created directly by Jehovah.
Jesus was a spirit creature. What are the angels? Jesus being shown to have a different name while in the heavens (while in a different role) in no way detracts from his glory. The angels are quite powerful–each one. Remember when one angel killed 185,000 in one night? Jesus, having this army of spirit creatures under him in no way detracts from his glory. He being described as one of these spirit creatures, the main one, THE archangel in no way detracts from his glory.How many angels are there? 10's of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions? Jesus being the chief angel, THE archangel does not take anything away from him. Who better to be in charge of Jehovah's spirit creation?
There are serephs, and cherubs which are different ranking angels.
This idea of positions of rank or authority in the heavens is in harmony with Colossians 1:16, which speaks of things “in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities.”
Jehovah's spirit creation is organized, even as his people on earth are today. Jehovah is a God of organization.
Quote I have never seen you tell us of anything that does not come from your doctrine david. Does that you mean that you belong to the JWs rather than the people of the bible?
Why disagree with someone who is right?
I have told you what the Bible says. If the Bible says: God is love. God is just. The idea of burning people never came into his heart. etc, etc, then it's not a great leap to say that God doesn't burn people forever for the sins of a few years, something no sane loving parent would do.
I could join you and say that God torments people for all time in fire, something that goes against what the Bible tells us of his love and justice. But for what purpose? The Bible disagrees with that Greek Babylonian philosphy.You are right (as I've already said). It can't categorically be proven that Michael is Jesus' name while in heaven. Because nowhere does the Bible say: Michael is Jesus. But, as with the story that Jesus gave, there is enough evidence in other parts of the Bible to lead one to a reasonable conclusion.
Quote You quote reason and logic.
Are these comparable to revelation to you too?
No. Again wrong Nick. If there is somwhere where the Bible says: 'Michael is not Jesus,' do you think I would still believe he was. While not completely conclusive, we have every reason to believe that Jesus is called Michael (Who is like God?) while in heaven.
God changes names all the time. Names are important to him. When someone important takes on a new role, a name change is often in order.Quote Is that not what has lead to trinity teaching that you proudly oppose?
For the trinity, there are a hundred clear scriptures for every one uncertain passage that is used to hold that belief.
The Bible directly disagrees with the trinity doctrine.
While it cannot be proven either way for absolute certainty, there is nothing that categorically says this belief is not true. Reasoning from the scriptures is an ok thing.
ACTS 17:2-3
“So according to Paul’s custom he . . .reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving by references that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead. . .”I have never said that it can be categorically proven, but only that it is reasonalbe to conclude that Michael (THE archangel) is Jesus while in heaven.
Again, there's nothing more I can say on this.
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 13 2005,21:07) Is wrote:Question: Jesus said that He is the beginning of the creation of God. If Jesus is the beginning of creation, then He is the first created.
If He is the first created then Col. 1:15 is concuring with Rev. 3:14. If that be so then Col. 1:16 is saying that He is the first and everything else He created.
Please explain!
Hi Kenrch, how are things?
In response to your question (demand):The Greek word for beginning (arche) can have multiple applications and there is certainly a degree of ambiguity when it is used the English translations.
From Strongs
G746
archē
ar-khay'
From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): – beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.In Eph 6:12 “arche” is rendered:
“Principalities” in the KJV
“Powers” in the NASB
“Rulers” in the NIVThe Abridged Liddell-Scott Greek-English Lexicon defines it this way:
“a beginning, origin, first cause” or “the first place or power, sovereignty, dominion, command”. This verse testifies that Jesus was the “power” over creation or it's “First-cause” – the Creator rather than one of God’s creations.”Vines Dictionary of New Testament Words (Vol.1, p.111) records this:
“Arche means a beginning. The root arch – primarily indicated what was of worth. Hence the verb archo meant 'to be first,' and archon denoted a ruler. So also arose the idea of a beginning, the origin, the active cause, whether a person or thing.”So you can see that the Greek phrase, “beginning of the creation of God” does not necessarily mean he was the 'first creation' (and scripture does not support this premise) but could also be taken to mean that He is the active cause (the executer) or the origin of it.
Be well.
Quote (david @ Nov. 15 2005,21:59) You are right (as I've already said). It can't categorically be proven that Michael is Jesus' name while in heaven. Because nowhere does the Bible say: Michael is Jesus. But, as with the story that Jesus gave, there is enough evidence in other parts of the Bible to lead one to a reasonable conclusion. Quote You quote reason and logic.
Are these comparable to revelation to you too?
No. Again wrong Nick. If there is somwhere where the Bible says: 'Michael is not Jesus,' do you think I would still believe he was. While not completely conclusive, we have every reason to believe that Jesus is called Michael (Who is like God?) while in heaven.While it cannot be proven either way for absolute certainty, there is nothing that categorically says this belief is not true. Reasoning from the scriptures is an ok thing.
I have never said that it can be categorically proven, but only that it is reasonalbe to conclude that Michael (THE archangel) is Jesus while in heaven.
Hi david,
So your denomination teaches that;Jesus is an angel
called MichaelAs you have shown these teachings have no scriptural foundation beyond speculation.
Does it not bother you that your leaders would teach beyond scripture?
How does that fit with 2Jn 9?
Do you belong to them or Christ?
Would you rebuke them for false teaching and warn them against such practices?Or are you really following them?
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