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Quote (david @ Mar. 07 2008,17:14) “which “Messiah the Leader” you think this refers to?” Quote Perhaps the One who is yet to come? But he would be arriving at the wrong time.
David, you'll have to forgive me but I really don't think man can figure out for certain the dates and times, it is merely speculation.Quote (david @ Mar. 07 2008,17:35) Quote It says that the Messiah (who you think was/is Jesus) was “cut off with nothing for himself”, but Jesus was glorified Yes, he was later glorified. But, he was also cut off with nothing for himself.
He was cut off in death, giving up all that he had, as a ransom for mankind. (Isa 53:8)
What did he give up? His life? He knew that he would be resurrected and promoted to God's right-hand man. That is hardly being cut-off. That is hardly not having anything for himself.Quote (david @ Mar. 07 2008,17:38) I still can’t get away from this scripture: “‘Indeed, My servant . . . was despised, shunned by men . . . We held him of no account. Yet it was our sickness that he was bearing, our suffering that he endured. . . . But he was wounded because of our sins, crushed because of our iniquities. . . . We all went astray like sheep . . . And the LORD visited upon him the guilt of all of us.’ . . . Though he had done no injustice and had spoken no falsehood. . . . ‘My righteous servant makes the many righteous, it is their punishment that he bears . . . He exposed himself [“poured out his soul,” NW] to death and was numbered among the sinners, whereas he bore the guilt of the many and made intercession for sinners.’”—Isaiah 52:13–53:12.
Are you willing to say that Jesus was a sinner?It says here he was “numbered among the sinners…”.
Hmmm
Hi mandy,
He could not be the scapegoat unless the sin of the world was placed on his shoulders, and thus he was thus counted among the sinners.Lev 16
7And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.8And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
9And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
10But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
2 Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 07 2008,00:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 07 2008,16:37) Hi mandy,
So if your new messiah comes to save the Jews where will that leave you?
Ah…..good question!You have hit on the obvious (which I had not considered).
The OT promised Messiah is “promised” to the Jews/Israel! What does that make of the rest of us? Good question!
Hmmmm
Stop thinking this way Mandy. If you'll quit believing God is only available to one certain group of people according to their faith, you will end up just latching onto something to get your “Get out of Hell Free” card.IMO, a faith full of doubts in no faith at all.
David, how do you explain the 37 years between the death of Jesus and the destruction of the temple? According to Daniel, both events were to occur at the same time (anointed one cut off and city and temple destroyed).
Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 07 2008,21:11) IMO, a faith full of doubts in no faith at all.
You doubt Yeshua as the messiah/annointed.Quote (t8 @ Mar. 07 2008,04:43) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 07 2008,21:11) IMO, a faith full of doubts in no faith at all.
You doubt Yeshua as the messiah/annointed.
And? That is not where my faith rests.Those who believe that Jesus was the Jewish messiah do so because (1) the NT writers said he was and (2) it sounds right to them.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 07 2008,18:31) 10But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
Good stuff here Nick. But how come Jesus didn't get to go free?Hi Mandy,
Is there sustenance in the desert?
The lamb of God had to die.
But Christ yet lives.Christ was an outcast from society.
We follow him.Lev 16
26 “The man who releases the goat as a scapegoat must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may come into the camp. 27 The bull and the goat for the sin offerings, whose blood was brought into the Most Holy Place to make atonement, must be taken outside the camp; their hides, flesh and offal are to be burned up. 28 The man who burns them must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may come into the camp.Heb13
11The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore. 14For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.Quote David, how do you explain the 37 years between the death of Jesus and the destruction of the temple? According to Daniel, both events were to occur at the same time (anointed one cut off and city and temple destroyed). I don't remember it saying that. Please show me where it says that
.Quote David, you'll have to forgive me but I really don't think man can figure out for certain the dates and times, it is merely speculation. Do you not think God wanted people to understand his word? It seems like a cop out to me to say we can't attempt to understand something that too me speaks of “messiah the leader.”
Quote What did he give up? His life? He knew that he would be resurrected and promoted to God's right-hand man. That is hardly being cut-off. That is hardly not having anything for himself. But that's precisely what being “cut off” means in the Bible usually, being cut off from life, dying. That's exactly what it usually means. Yes, he gave up his life, a life he had enjoyed for untold eons of time with his Father.
Quote Are you willing to say that Jesus was a sinner?
It says here he was “numbered among the sinners…”.
So, being “numbered among the sinners” equals “being a sinner” in your mind? “numbered among” equals “being.” hmmmm.
Jesus certainly was numbered along sinners, being counted as a sinner, along with sinners, at his death. But he wasn't.hmmmm Mandy. hmmmmm.
Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 07 2008,16:04) Quote (david @ Mar. 07 2008,12:38) Daniel 9
24 “There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
25 And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·síah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Mes·síah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.
“And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations.Daniel foretold that “Messiah the Leader” would appear 69 “weeks” after the order went forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. (Daniel 9:24, 25)
Each of these “weeks” was 7 years long.
(The ancient Jews commonly thought in terms of weeks of years. For instance, just as every seventh day was a Sabbath day, every seventh year was a Sabbath year.—Exodus 20:8-11; 23:10, 11.)
According to the Bible and secular history, the order to rebuild Jerusalem was issued in 455 B.C.E. (Nehemiah 2:1-8) So the Messiah was to appear 483 (69 times 7) years after 455 B.C.E. That brings us to 29 C.E., the very year that Jehovah anointed Jesus with holy spirit. Jesus thus became “the Christ” (meaning “Anointed One”), or Messiah.—Luke 3:15, 16, 21, 22.
He may have been annointed in 29 CE, however did anything that was prophesied of his coming actually happen? I don't recall any flood, do you? Or is that still coming? Like the “second coming”?Thanks for the info. David. I'll look it over a few times and try to digest it all. You may already realize that I am not as clever as you or even other's here who discuss these things as if it were the ABC's. It takes me a little longer….
Hi Mandy:The scripture about the flood say the “end”. The end is not yet come, and my understanding is that “flood” does not mean a flood of waters, but an overflowing. God has promised never to destroy the earth by a flood again as a rainbow reminds us of this promise.
God Bless
Quote (david @ Mar. 07 2008,17:13) Quote David, how do you explain the 37 years between the death of Jesus and the destruction of the temple? According to Daniel, both events were to occur at the same time (anointed one cut off and city and temple destroyed). I don't remember it saying that. Please show me where it says that
.- Dan 9:24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.
Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.Each event is separated by time. Since there is no time frame given for the destruction of the city, the context will have the destruction accompanying the cutting off of the anointed. An anointed one can be a prophet, priest, or king.
Quote (david @ Mar. 08 2008,10:23) hmmmm Mandy. hmmmmm.
I've never cared for the way you debate, David.You have a chip on your shoulder.
We obviously have very different belief systems and I thank you for your input so far, but I really don't wish to engage you further.
God bless,
MandyQuote (942767 @ Mar. 08 2008,10:51) Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 07 2008,16:04) Quote (david @ Mar. 07 2008,12:38) Daniel 9
24 “There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
25 And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·síah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Mes·síah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.
“And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations.Daniel foretold that “Messiah the Leader” would appear 69 “weeks” after the order went forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. (Daniel 9:24, 25)
Each of these “weeks” was 7 years long.
(The ancient Jews commonly thought in terms of weeks of years. For instance, just as every seventh day was a Sabbath day, every seventh year was a Sabbath year.—Exodus 20:8-11; 23:10, 11.)
According to the Bible and secular history, the order to rebuild Jerusalem was issued in 455 B.C.E. (Nehemiah 2:1-8) So the Messiah was to appear 483 (69 times 7) years after 455 B.C.E. That brings us to 29 C.E., the very year that Jehovah anointed Jesus with holy spirit. Jesus thus became “the Christ” (meaning “Anointed One”), or Messiah.—Luke 3:15, 16, 21, 22.
He may have been annointed in 29 CE, however did anything that was prophesied of his coming actually happen? I don't recall any flood, do you? Or is that still coming? Like the “second coming”?Thanks for the info. David. I'll look it over a few times and try to digest it all. You may already realize that I am not as clever as you or even other's here who discuss these things as if it were the ABC's. It takes me a little longer….
Hi Mandy:The scripture about the flood say the “end”. The end is not yet come, and my understanding is that “flood” does not mean a flood of waters, but an overflowing. God has promised never to destroy the earth by a flood again as a rainbow reminds us of this promise.
God Bless
Overflowing of what?
Thanks,
MandyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 08 2008,05:10) Hi Mandy,
Is there sustenance in the desert?
The lamb of God had to die.
But Christ yet lives.Christ was an outcast from society.
We follow him.Lev 16
26 “The man who releases the goat as a scapegoat must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may come into the camp. 27 The bull and the goat for the sin offerings, whose blood was brought into the Most Holy Place to make atonement, must be taken outside the camp; their hides, flesh and offal are to be burned up. 28 The man who burns them must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may come into the camp.Heb13
11The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore. 14For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.
Thank you for relating the OT and NT together. This is the stuff I'm looking for. Thanks, Nick.Hi Mandy,
It is this amazing together knitting of scripture to form a huge and complex unity that first drew me to Christ 25 years ago. For years I willingly studied and would write scriptures I loved and wanted to be able to find again in the verges and on the covers of my bible.Then I noted the cross references at the foot of one of the bibles I used and it became for me an enjoyable and deeply educational pursuit to take a wander through the whole bible following a trail of consistent truth.
Nothing since has taken from me this love.
Cross references are available on this site through using the NASB option in the Bible Gateway through 'HN' top RHS every page..
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