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Quote Hi David, The lion isn't laying down with lamb, is it? There is one prediction of the coming reign of the Messiah.
Hi Mandy. You must have a list. I imagine it's a short list. Could you please provide it for me. I'm curious to know which scriptures (if any) you now consider messianic.
david
David….In the old OT there was no mention of the second coming simply because they
are still waiting for the first coming…..They did not realize Emanual (God with you)had
arrived….Jesus' ministry was primarily for the Jew.TJ,
But the problem is, Jesus only fulfilled one “messianic” prophecy with certainty: he rode a donkey. That's a tough one!Quote (david @ Mar. 06 2008,13:45) Mandy, you've clearly done some research on this. Which scriptures are messianic prophecies in your opinion?
You're wrong – I did have quite a few written down but then I had to keep erasing them because valid arguments would put holes in them. So, KJ is correct that there are really very few (if any) that can directly apply to Jesus. In fact some that I had attributed to Jesus could be attributed to Solomon, for instance, or Kind David. Nothing is clear anymore. So if you are waiting for a “list” you will be waiting for a while, I'm not interested in revisiting however I am interested in you shedding light on the scriptures you believe apply to Jesus.Hi mandy,
Valid arguments… Who says they are valid?
Many scriptures have double applications.Zech4
9The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.Do you really think this applies to Zerubbabel?
Quote I am interested in you shedding light on the scriptures you believe apply to Jesus. Daniel 9
24 “There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
25 And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·síah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Mes·síah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.
“And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations.Daniel foretold that “Messiah the Leader” would appear 69 “weeks” after the order went forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. (Daniel 9:24, 25)
Each of these “weeks” was 7 years long.
(The ancient Jews commonly thought in terms of weeks of years. For instance, just as every seventh day was a Sabbath day, every seventh year was a Sabbath year.—Exodus 20:8-11; 23:10, 11.)
According to the Bible and secular history, the order to rebuild Jerusalem was issued in 455 B.C.E. (Nehemiah 2:1-8) So the Messiah was to appear 483 (69 times 7) years after 455 B.C.E. That brings us to 29 C.E., the very year that Jehovah anointed Jesus with holy spirit. Jesus thus became “the Christ” (meaning “Anointed One”), or Messiah.—Luke 3:15, 16, 21, 22.Starting in verse 24:
“TO TERMINATE THE TRANSGRESSION, AND TO FINISH OFF SIN, AND TO MAKE ATONEMENT FOR ERROR, AND TO BRING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
Though sin continued to afflict mankind, Jesus’ being cut off in death and his resurrection to heavenly life fulfilled prophecy. It ‘terminated transgression, finished off sin, made atonement for error, and brought in righteousness.’ God had removed the Law covenant, which had exposed and condemned the Jews as sinners. (Romans 5:12, 19, 20; Galatians 3:13, 19; Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:13, 14) Now the sins of repentant wrongdoers could be canceled, and the penalties thereof could be lifted. By means of the Messiah’s propitiatory sacrifice, reconciliation with God was possible for those exercising faith. They could look forward to receiving God’s gift of “everlasting life by Christ Jesus.”—Romans 3:21-26; 6:22, 23; 1 John 2:1, 2.“TO ANOINT THE HOLY OF HOLIES”
The prophecy foretold the anointing of “the Holy of Holies.” This does not refer to anointing the Most Holy, or innermost compartment, of the temple in Jerusalem. The expression “Holy of Holies” here refers to the heavenly sanctuary of God. There, Jesus presented the value of his human sacrifice to his Father. Jesus’ baptism, in 29 C.E., had anointed, or set apart, that heavenly, spiritual reality represented by the Most Holy of the earthly tabernacle and of the later temple.—Hebrews 9:11, 12.
On the day of Jesus’ baptism, God’s heavenly throne had taken on new features. The identification of a perfect human sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world emphasized God’s holiness in contrast with man’s sinfulness. God’s mercy was also highlighted in that he now showed his willingness to be appeased, or propitiated. Thus God’s throne in heaven had become like the innermost compartment of the temple, where the high priest entered once a year with animal blood to atone for sin in an illustrative way.
The curtain that separated the Holy from the Most Holy pictured Jesus’ fleshly body. (Hebrews 10:19, 20) It was the barrier that kept Jesus from entering into his Father’s presence while he was a man on earth. (1 Corinthians 15:50) At the time of Jesus’ death, “the curtain of the sanctuary was rent in two, from top to bottom.” (Matthew 27:51) This dramatically indicated that the barrier preventing Jesus’ entry into heaven had now been removed. Three days later, Jehovah God performed an outstanding miracle. He raised Jesus from the dead, not as a mortal human of flesh and blood, but as a glorious spirit creature “continuing alive forever.” (Hebrews 7:24) Forty days later, Jesus ascended to heaven and entered the real “Holy of Holies,” “to appear before the person of God for us.”—Hebrews 9:24.
Did God accept the value of Jesus’ shed blood as atonement for the sins of the world? Indeed he did. Proof of this came exactly 50 days after Jesus’ resurrection, on the festival day of Pentecost. God’s holy spirit was poured out upon 120 disciples of Jesus gathered together in Jerusalem. (Acts 2:1, 4, 33) Like their High Priest, Jesus Christ, they were now anointed to serve as “a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices” under God’s great spiritual temple arrangement. (1 Peter 2:5) Furthermore, these anointed ones constituted a new nation, God’s “holy nation” of spiritual Israel. Henceforth, all prophecies of good things about Israel, such as the “new covenant” promise recorded at Jeremiah 31:31, would apply to the anointed Christian congregation, the real “Israel of God.”—1 Peter 2:9; Galatians 6:16.“IMPRINTING A SEAL UPON VISION AND PROPHET”
This meant that everything foretold regarding the Messiah—all that he accomplished by means of his sacrifice, resurrection, and appearance in heaven, as well as the other things occurring during the 70th week—would be stamped with the seal of divine backing, would prove true, and could be trusted. The vision would be sealed, restricted to the Messiah. Its fulfillment would be in him and in God’s work through him. Only in connection with the foretold Messiah could we find the correct interpretation of the vision. Nothing else would unseal its meaning.Actually, let's just leave it at that verse for now.
I'm curious, Mandy, which “Messiah the Leader” you think this refers to?
david
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 06 2008,18:11) Hi Kj,
Your lack of certainty is the problem.
For who, you or me? I have no problem with it. I am certain Jesus was not the Jewish promised messiah. Not unless we are missing some OT passages. Do you have a different set of books than what I have in from of me?Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 06 2008,18:51) Quote (david @ Mar. 06 2008,13:45) Mandy, you've clearly done some research on this. Which scriptures are messianic prophecies in your opinion?
You're wrong – I did have quite a few written down but then I had to keep erasing them because valid arguments would put holes in them. So, KJ is correct that there are really very few (if any) that can directly apply to Jesus. In fact some that I had attributed to Jesus could be attributed to Solomon, for instance, or Kind David. Nothing is clear anymore. So if you are waiting for a “list” you will be waiting for a while, I'm not interested in revisiting however I am interested in you shedding light on the scriptures you believe apply to Jesus.
Be careful, you will get the standard answer of “dual prophecy” if you say the first applied to David or Solomon.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 06 2008,19:05) Hi mandy,
Valid arguments… Who says they are valid?
Many scriptures have double applications.
See Mandy? Told ya. Nick says he “came out of her” yet he still clings to some of “her” explanations.There is no basis whatsoever to “double applications”. That's special pleading at its finest.
Quote (david @ Mar. 07 2008,12:38) Daniel 9
24 “There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
25 And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·síah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Mes·síah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.
“And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations.Daniel foretold that “Messiah the Leader” would appear 69 “weeks” after the order went forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. (Daniel 9:24, 25)
Each of these “weeks” was 7 years long.
(The ancient Jews commonly thought in terms of weeks of years. For instance, just as every seventh day was a Sabbath day, every seventh year was a Sabbath year.—Exodus 20:8-11; 23:10, 11.)
According to the Bible and secular history, the order to rebuild Jerusalem was issued in 455 B.C.E. (Nehemiah 2:1-8) So the Messiah was to appear 483 (69 times 7) years after 455 B.C.E. That brings us to 29 C.E., the very year that Jehovah anointed Jesus with holy spirit. Jesus thus became “the Christ” (meaning “Anointed One”), or Messiah.—Luke 3:15, 16, 21, 22.
He may have been annointed in 29 CE, however did anything that was prophesied of his coming actually happen? I don't recall any flood, do you? Or is that still coming? Like the “second coming”?Thanks for the info. David. I'll look it over a few times and try to digest it all. You may already realize that I am not as clever as you or even other's here who discuss these things as if it were the ABC's. It takes me a little longer….
Quote (david @ Mar. 07 2008,12:38) I'm curious, Mandy, which “Messiah the Leader” you think this refers to?
Perhaps the One who is yet to come?It says that the Messiah (who you think was/is Jesus) was “cut off with nothing for himself”, but Jesus was glorified and sits at the right hand of God, hardly cut-off.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 07 2008,16:37) Hi mandy,
So if your new messiah comes to save the Jews where will that leave you?
Ah…..good question!You have hit on the obvious (which I had not considered).
The OT promised Messiah is “promised” to the Jews/Israel! What does that make of the rest of us? Good question!
Hmmmm
“which “Messiah the Leader” you think this refers to?”
Quote Perhaps the One who is yet to come? But he would be arriving at the wrong time.
Quote It says that the Messiah (who you think was/is Jesus) was “cut off with nothing for himself”, but Jesus was glorified Yes, he was later glorified. But, he was also cut off with nothing for himself.
He was cut off in death, giving up all that he had, as a ransom for mankind. (Isa 53:8)
WHEN WOULD Messiah the leader ARRIVE?
Daniel 9:24 (JP): “Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people.”
–What is the purpose of the time period mentioned?
“To make an end of sin, and to forgive iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal vision and prophet.” From these words alone, one would expect this to be one of the most important prophecies in the Scriptures.
Daniel 9:26 (JP): “After the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one [“Messiah,” Hebrew, Mashi?ach] be cut off, and be no more.” Notice that the Messiah’s cutting off, or death, would occur before the destruction of the second temple in 70 C.E., as the verse goes on to say: “And the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.”
–How do Jewish commentators understand this prophecy?
There is no one standard, accepted interpretation for this prophecy on the part of Jewish commentators. Some try to relate portions of it to the return from Babylonian exile (537 B.C.E.), others to the period of the Maccabees’ rebellion against the forces of Hellenization (168-165 B.C.E.), and others to the destruction of the second temple by the Romans in 70 C.E., while still others relate portions of the prophecy to a yet future coming of the Messiah.
On the whole one could say that present-day Jewish interpretations fall short on two basic points:
1. They tend to minimize the importance of this prophecy, totally ignoring its stated purpose to bring an end to sin and iniquity and to establish everlasting righteousness.
2. None of these standard explanations accurately fit into any reasonable time calculation, which was the very purpose in giving Daniel this prophecy in a form that could be used to determine when the fulfillment would come about.—Compare Daniel 9:2.
–Is there an explanation of this prophecy that harmonizes both with its stated purpose and with historical facts?
Notice the following:
Seventy weeks: Jewish commentators almost universally understand this to mean weeks of years, in other words, 490 years. This is in harmony with the Scriptural prophetic calculation of “a year for each day.”—Numbers 14:34; Leviticus 25:8; Ezekiel 4:6.
–“From the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem” Nehemiah relates that in the 20th year of King Artaxerxes, he was given the commission to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. This was in the year 455 B.C.E.—Nehemiah 2:1-8; see Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2, pages 614-16, 899-900, published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.
Seven weeks: Seven weeks (of years, or 49 years) relates to the period of completing the restoration of the city, Jerusalem.
Sixty-two weeks: Sixty-two weeks (of years, or 434 years) relates to the period after the completion of the city until the coming of the Messiah.
Adding these two time periods together, one comes to 69 weeks of years, or 483 years. Counting from the starting point of 455 B.C.E. shows the end of the 69th week to be 29 C.E.
29 C.E.: A Jew named Jesus (Hebrew, Yeshua), born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth, from the line of David, begins preaching throughout the land of Israel.—Luke 3:1-3, 21, 22.
–“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off” (Daniel 9:26, NW): In the year 33 C.E., Jesus is killed, after preaching for three and a half years. This corresponds to what Daniel 9:27 states.
–“He will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease” (Daniel 9:27, NW): Jesus spoke of his death as a sacrifice. (Matthew 20:28) It brought a culmination in God’s eyes to the sacrifices offered under the Law covenant. (Hebrews 8:1-13) Jesus’ sacrificial death provided the basis for all that was mentioned in Daniel 9:24.
It would bring forgiveness of sin.
It confirmed God’s promises and prophecies.
It provided a legal basis according to God’s standards for everlasting righteousness in the future.
All of this occurred, as the prophecy indicated, before the destruction of the second temple.
Would not any other explanation indicating a past fulfillment fall short of the stated purpose?
Pointing to a future fulfillment of this prophecy would take it far out of its given time period of 70 weeks of years and it would not be prior to the destruction of Jerusalem’s second temple.
I still can’t get away from this scripture:
“‘Indeed, My servant . . . was despised, shunned by men . . . We held him of no account. Yet it was our sickness that he was bearing, our suffering that he endured. . . . But he was wounded because of our sins, crushed because of our iniquities. . . . We all went astray like sheep . . . And the LORD visited upon him the guilt of all of us.’ . . . Though he had done no injustice and had spoken no falsehood. . . . ‘My righteous servant makes the many righteous, it is their punishment that he bears . . . He exposed himself [“poured out his soul,” NW] to death and was numbered among the sinners, whereas he bore the guilt of the many and made intercession for sinners.’”—Isaiah 52:13–53:12.
The picture Isaiah presents here is of a completely innocent, pure individual whose suffering and death provided atonement for his own nation, which did not acknowledge him.
Today, however, most Jewish commentators accept as an established fact that the reference is to the nation of Israel as a whole or to a righteous group within the nation.
The question is, Did the nation of Israel, or even a portion of it, ever fit this description, or does it apply to an individual?
For over 800 years after Isaiah’s writing these words of prophecy (c. 732 B.C.E.), there is no record of any Jew or rabbi who taught that this “servant” was to be viewed in a collective sense. Throughout this period, the prophecy was universally understood to refer to an individual and was generally regarded as a prophecy concerning the Messiah.
In addition, notice the comment in the prologue to the book The Fifty-Third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters: “Surviving Jewish exegesis up to the end of the amoraic period [up to the sixth century C.E.] suggests that it was then frequently, perhaps even generally assumed without question that the figure referred to was the Messiah, which is of course how the Targum also, somewhat later, interprets it.”—Edited by H. M. Orlinsky, 1969, page 17.
What could be the motive for rejecting and reinterpreting the most natural understanding of this scripture as referring to an individual, even the Messiah? Was it not simply an effort to avoid any connection between this prophecy and Jesus, the first-century Jew who fitted its description in every detail?
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