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Hi KJ,
God is close to all.
But to make contact He requires certain things.Acts 17
27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
I noticed you said this in a thread about water baptism on 10 July 07
“There are some denominations that think so. Do you have any proof for against?
I do not refute that it is strongly encouraged as an act of obedience and a public display of your new life, but is it required? I do not think so. The thief on the cross is the consummate example.
I apoligize if this has already been discussed. I did not see another thread.'
Did you follow through on this?
“No requirements. You are depending on a book to guide you to God. Since when has a book really helped you in real life? Do you read the instruction manual for anything? If so, you are unusual. That being said, do you think God needs an instruction manual if you are willing to open up to His presence?
Perhaps you will come to realize that atheists (and agnostics) don't disbelieve in God but rather the God as explained by the various Abrahamic faiths. That God is very human in nature so as to be nothing worthy of honor.
Quote Good call. –Nick
These words were in response to me saying “Wrong THREAD, Nick.”
My opening words included this statement:
“I would really like to keep this thread to only discussing the prophecies of the Hebrew scriptures and how they relate to Jesus.”The thing is, I actually do want to study this subject. So I would prefer if this thread didn't go off in a hundred different directions like many threads do. The subject is a clear one.
I am certainly as guilty as most of going off topic (even in this thread), but I am trying not to let this happen.
Hi david,
As Paul discovered showing the Messiah from the OT to men can be difficult.Acts 28
20For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.21And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.
22But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
23And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
25And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/falsechrist.html
I think this site reasons fairly soundly on 3 possibilities, concerning messiah.
It looks at some apparent “contradictions”:
Quote # How is the Messiah going to lead Israel to greatness, while at the same time the Messiah is to be rejected by Israel?
# How is the Messiah going to be the ultimate conqueror, yet also be killed in weakness?
# How is the Messiah going to usher in world peace (by destroying the wicked), when Israel herself is wicked (‘incurably ill, and desperately wicked’—said Jeremiah)?
# How is the Messiah going to come ‘on clouds’ and ‘on a donkey’ at the same time?Then it considers 3 possible ways to resolve these apparent contradictions:
Quote Let’s look at possible ways to ‘resolve’ some these tensions/contradictions: Assuming we believe the Scriptures, which the first century Jews did, we have essentially three live options in resolving such contradictions:
1. The two contrasting descriptions/roles apply to TWO DIFFERENT “messiahs”
2. The two contrasting descriptions/roles are each CONDITIONAL, meaning that only one will actually occur (the other being precluded by the circumstances)
3. The two contrasting descriptions/roles apply to the same messianic figure, but will be fulfilled in DIFFERENT times (or circumstances)
Then, it makes this very interesting statement:
Quote Before we assess these different options, notice that all three approaches would create the same problem for you/us: why would you accept ANY messianic figure that DIDN’T fulfill ALL the prophecies. · In Option 1, why would you/we believe in Messiah ben Joseph (who came much earlier than Messiah ben David), since he obviously didn’t fulfill the promises of military victory over the Gentiles (instead he was killed and defeated!)? And, why would you/we accept Messiah ben David, since he obviously didn’t fulfill the promise of being killed?
· In Option 2, why would you/we believe in a messiah who came ‘on clouds’, since he DIDN’T fulfill the prophecies of coming ‘on a donkey’, or vice versa—indeed, he wasn’t even supposed to do them both, since they were conditional and mutually-exclusive (in this option)?
· In Option 3, why would you/we believe in a messiah who fulfilled only the first-appearance prophecies, since He wasn’t even supposed to complete the others until later?
So, if you are going to accept the premise of early Judaism that the Scripture is trustworthy in its recording of God’s messianic promises, then you are going to be faced with the same problem no matter what approach you take.
Anyway, I think it's interesting reading.
Quote (david @ Mar. 01 2008,17:02) In Option 3, why would you/we believe in a messiah who fulfilled only the first-appearance prophecies, since He wasn’t even supposed to complete the others until later?
David,Thank you for this website and information!
Regarding above, why would/should we believe in a Messiah who came once and fulfilled some of the prophesies, and then died?
Is it prophesied at all that he will come again to button-up the work he didn't do the first time? If so, where can I find this information?
Hi mandy,
If Christ did not come to set up his kingdom then none between that time and now would have been able to enter that kingdom.Luke 16:16
” The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.Now many have entered over those 2000 years and are asleep awaiting his call.
Hi mandy,
If what God gave to the chosen people regarding the two visits of Christ, first as servant and then as ruler does not meet your standard of evidence, is that really your business?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2008,06:27) Hi mandy,
If what God gave to the chosen people regarding the two visits of Christ, first as servant and then as ruler does not meet your standard of evidence, is that really your business?
These are the posts you should just keep to yourself, they don't promote anything good. Spoiled fruit. Through it out.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2008,05:20) Hi mandy,
If Christ did not come to set up his kingdom then none between that time and now would have been able to enter that kingdom.Luke 16:16
” The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.Now many have entered over those 2000 years and are asleep awaiting his call.
This is the type of information that helps tremendously. Thank you. I'll ponder this scripture and what you have said as I'm driving up to Seattle tomorrow (a 1.5 hour drive will give me plenty of time to think).Goodnight Nick,
MandyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2008,19:29) Hi Mandy,
The Messiah was promised to the Jews.
That information maybe correct but your delivery of it has turned my ear away from the message.The Jews did not catch the bit about the Messiah coming again a second time. I can't say that I blame them there.
Mandy,
I still think the root of the problem is you still expect scripture to be clear and flawless. While many like Nick, will claim it flawless there are few that can, with a straight face, ever say it is consistently clear. Just look at all the debates going on this site of Christians, even in the believers section. Just look at Revelations, I defy any one (other then Mr. Weinland of course, being a witness and all that) to say it is.
Where does that leave you then? Well in searching perhaps you are growing wiser and stronger, a good thing. Doubt can either leave you lost or it can be overcomed and leave you stronger then you were before doubting, as your faith has been tested. Perhaps in testing you modify your beliefs to what your heart and head proclaim truth rather then what others tell you. Don't let others here put you in an all or nothing situation. Like I have said before, if you accept scripture is not perfect then a single flaw or discrepency shouldn't jeapordize your overall beliefs. Not being Jewish, I guess I have not concerned myself with the messiah question. You say you love God, and serve him, but you have doubts about Jesus as the Jewish messiah, that is ok. You are looking in to it, prayer and study will lead you to the answer eventually. As for now, view yourself as Thomas Jefferson did, a Christian because he followed what Jesus taught. His teachings are what really is important, the details of his exact nature less so. Whether Jesus was the Jewish messiah or not, does it really matter that much to the truth of his teachings or your love of God? Keep praying and searching, but relax and don't worry so much in the mean time, for I would guess the answer, in either way, wouldn't change your basic love for God and Jesus' teachings as a path for mankind.
Hi cato,
If the service of man is the message of God then I agree.
But it is not.
The benefits to men are a natural side effect of the fruit of the Spirit in believers.
Love of God is now defined as obedience to the simple demands He sent through his beloved Son.Jn3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
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