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Quote (david @ Feb. 27 2008,16:47) Quote
The Messiah was to accomplish all the first time around.While it doesn't say he would come twice, nor does it say the above. The fact that you “gave up” on Isaiah 53 makes me wonder.
I don't know how else the OT could put it – it says that when the Messiah comes the lion will rest with the lamb. It says a bunch of other “stuff” too
None of it happend when Jesus came. Why not? Why did we have to pass on through tradition the second coming to fill in OR cover up?Regarding Is 53, I gave up on ever getting a clear-cut answer. Not on the whole of scripture itself. You can stop wondering now…..
“Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, . . . for he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground . . . He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: He was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried . . . He was crushed because of our iniquities: The chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed. All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way . . . He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, . . . he was cut off out of the land of the living. . . . And they made his grave with the wicked.”—Jerusalem Press.
While Tow and others have asserted that this servant spoken of was Israel, Israel was a sinful servant. (Isaiah 42:19; 44:21, 22)
Encyclopaedia Judaica draws this contrast: “The real Israel is sinful and the Servant [of Isaiah 53], free of sin.” (Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1971, Volume 9, page 65.)
And I'm wondering how you would match up those words in Is 53 with Israel.
Mandy, the following is a post from a few pages back, that I addressed to you. I'm wondering what your thoughts are.
Towshab had repeatedly said that when the Messiah arrived, everyone would know it, what with the glorious triumphant messianic prophecies being fulfilled.
Mandy, I have a question for you: Have you ever read in the scriptures: The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone.
The one who “carried the very sin of many people, and for the transgressors he proceeded to interpose” this one who “will bring a righteous standing to many people; and their errors he himself will bear”–this one despite doing all this, the scripture says of him: “He was despised, and we held him as of no account.” (Is 53:12,3)
BUT HOW CAN THIS BE?
PSALM 118:22
“The stone that the builders rejected Has become the head of the corner.”Generally speaking, the Israelites, stumbled over the stone of Jesus.
ISAIAH 8:14-15
“And he must become as a sacred place; but as a stone to strike against and as a rock over which to stumble to both the houses of Israel, as a trap and as a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them will be certain to stumble and to fall and be broken, and to be snared and caught.”MATTHEW 21:42,44
“Jesus said to them: “Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?”. . . .“Also, the person falling upon this stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.””Again, Mandy, I ask:
The one who “carried the very sin of many people, and for the transgressors he proceeded to interpose” this one who “will bring a righteous standing to many people; and their errors he himself will bear”–this one despite doing all this, the scripture says of him: “He was despised, and we held him as of no account.” (Is 53:12,3)BUT HOW CAN THIS BE?
REJECTED BY HIS OWN PEOPLE, THE JEWS
ISAIAH 53:1,3
“Who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed? . . .He was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for having acquaintance with sickness. And there was as if the concealing of one’s face from us. He was despised, AND WE HELD HIM AS OF NO ACCOUNT.”
JOHN 1:11
“He came to his own home, but his own people did not take him in.”
LUKE 23:18
“But with their whole multitude they cried out, saying: “Take this one away, but release Bar·ab́bas to us!””
(By their rejection of Jesus as Messiah, the Jews fulfilled this prophecy.)NOT BELIEVED IN, BECOMES STONE OF STUMBLING
ISAIAH 53:1,3
“Who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed? . . .He was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for having acquaintance with sickness. And there was as if the concealing of one’s face from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no account.”
PSALM 69:8
“I have become one estranged to my brothers, And a foreigner to the sons of my mother.”
PSALM 118:22,23
“The stone that the builders rejected Has become the head of the corner. This has come to be from Jehovah himself; It is wonderful in our eyes.”
ISAIAH 8:14-15
“And he must become as a sacred place; but as a stone to strike against and as a rock over which to stumble to both the houses of Israel, as a trap and as a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them will be certain to stumble and to fall and be broken, and to be snared and caught.”
ISAIAH 28:16
“therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Here I am laying as a foundation in Zion a stone, a tried stone, the precious corner of a sure foundation. No one exercising faith will get panicky.”ROMANS 10:11,16
“For the Scripture says: “None that rests his faith on him will be disappointed.”. . . .“Nevertheless, they did not all obey the good news. For Isaiah says: “Jehovah, who put faith in the thing heard from us?””
JOHN 12:37-38
“But although he had performed so many signs before them, they were not putting faith in him, so that the word of Isaiah the prophet was fulfilled which he said: “Jehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed?””
ACTS 3:14
“Yes, YOU disowned that holy and righteous one, and YOU asked for a man, a murderer, to be freely granted to YOU,”
ACTS 4:11
“This is ‘the stone that was treated by YOU builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’”
LUKE 20:17-18
“But he looked upon them and said: “What, then, does this that is written mean, ‘The stone which the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone’? Everyone falling upon that stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.””
1 PETER 2:6-8
“For it is contained in Scripture: “Look! I am laying in Zion a stone, chosen, a foundation cornerstone, precious; and no one exercising faith in it will by any means come to disappointment.” It is to YOU, therefore, that he is precious, because YOU are believers; but to those not believing, “the identical stone that the builders rejected has become [the] head of [the] corner,” and “a stone of stumbling and a rock-mass of offense.” These are stumbling because they are disobedient to the word. To this very end they were also appointed.”
ROMANS 9:31-33
“but Israel, although pursuing a law of righteousness, did not attain to the law. For what reason? Because he pursued it, not by faith, but as by works. They stumbled on the “stone of stumbling”; as it is written: “Look! I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock-mass of offense, but he that rests his faith on it will not come to disappointment.””Mandy, again, I'm wondering what your comments would be on this:
In the thread, “the real king Messiah” Towshab writes (on pages 2 and 3):
“It [Jesus lineage] will be proven when all of the others [prophecies] take place. Through them, all will know that the King Messiah is of the lineage of David.”
“You act as if the King Messiah will have to prove himself. G-d will do the proving because he will be G-d's Messiah.”
Of course, all will know the second time. We know there must be a second time, because all will not know some other time.
The following doesn't say “messiah” but it is referring to the precious corner stone, the most important piece of any foundation:
ISAIAH 28:16
“therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Here I am laying as a foundation in Zion a stone, a tried stone, the precious corner of a sure foundation. No one exercising faith will get panicky.”DOES IT SAY EVERYONE WOULD EXECRCISE FAITH IN THIS ONE? OR DOES IT SAY THAT “NO ONE EXERCISING FAITH” WOULD GET PANICKY?”
PSALM 118:22,23
“The stone that the builders rejected Has become the head of the corner. This has come to be from Jehovah himself; It is wonderful in our eyes.”THIS PRECIOUS CORNERSTONE THAT ISAIAH SPOKE OF ABOVE, WHAT WILL HE BE TO THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE HOUSES OF ISRAEL, OF THE INHABITANTS OF JERUSALEM? NOTICE:
ISAIAH 8:14-15
“And he must become as a sacred place; but as a stone to strike against and as a rock over which to stumble to both the houses of Israel, as a trap and as a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them will be certain to stumble and to fall and be broken, and to be snared and caught.”So MANDY, when the Christ does come (whether Jesus is the Christ or not) it appears that the Jews in general will stumble over him.
And guess what? They did stumble over Jesus.What would you say to this?
I'm not sure what you want from me here, David?
What is the question exactly? Yes, I've heard and read all the scriptures you listed. I see how you are drawing your conclusions.
Quote Of course, all will know the second time. We know there must be a second time, because all will not know some other time.
A second coming for the promised Messiah is a huge thing to assume (Of course, all will know the second time – you say). David, it is not written!Quote ISAIAH 8:14-15
“And he must become as a sacred place; but as a stone to strike against and as a rock over which to stumble to both the houses of Israel, as a trap and as a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them will be certain to stumble and to fall and be broken, and to be snared and caught.”So MANDY, when the Christ does come (whether Jesus is the Christ or not) it appears that the Jews in general will stumble over him.
And guess what? They did stumble over Jesus.What would you say to this?
Again, you are assuming that this “rock” spoken of is indeed the Messiah.Quote (david @ Feb. 27 2008,00:03) “Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, . . . for he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground . . . He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: He was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried . . . He was crushed because of our iniquities: The chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed. All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way . . . He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, . . . he was cut off out of the land of the living. . . . And they made his grave with the wicked.”—Jerusalem Press. While Tow and others have asserted that this servant spoken of was Israel, Israel was a sinful servant. (Isaiah 42:19; 44:21, 22)
Encyclopaedia Judaica draws this contrast: “The real Israel is sinful and the Servant [of Isaiah 53], free of sin.” (Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1971, Volume 9, page 65.)
And I'm wondering how you would match up those words in Is 53 with Israel.
I can't find it but it seems Tow, before he left, found that entry in the Encyclopaedia Judaica and showed that the quote you gave was misleading in regards to the rest of the entry in EJ.Quote (Mandy @ Feb. 27 2008,00:26) Quote Of course, all will know the second time. We know there must be a second time, because all will not know some other time.
A second coming for the promised Messiah is a huge thing to assume (Of course, all will know the second time – you say). David, it is not written!Quote ISAIAH 8:14-15
“And he must become as a sacred place; but as a stone to strike against and as a rock over which to stumble to both the houses of Israel, as a trap and as a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them will be certain to stumble and to fall and be broken, and to be snared and caught.”So MANDY, when the Christ does come (whether Jesus is the Christ or not) it appears that the Jews in general will stumble over him.
And guess what? They did stumble over Jesus.What would you say to this?
Again, you are assuming that this “rock” spoken of is indeed the Messiah.
There is a term for this method, but basically it is taking a presupposition and then assuming into what is read. So if you already see Jesus there, you can make your case.Quote (david @ Feb. 27 2008,00:03) “Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, . . . for he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground . . . He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: He was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried . . . He was crushed because of our iniquities: The chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed. All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way . . . He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, . . . he was cut off out of the land of the living. . . . And they made his grave with the wicked.”—Jerusalem Press. While Tow and others have asserted that this servant spoken of was Israel, Israel was a sinful servant. (Isaiah 42:19; 44:21, 22)
Encyclopaedia Judaica draws this contrast: “The real Israel is sinful and the Servant [of Isaiah 53], free of sin.” (Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1971, Volume 9, page 65.)
And I'm wondering how you would match up those words in Is 53 with Israel.
Funny stuff (not your post David)! I typed in the phrase from the EJ entry and the only hit linked back to my site where Tow listed the entry in context. The post can be found on the Isaiah 53 thread. Here is the jist of it:- It is explicitly stated in a number of places that the Servant is Israel (see e.g., 51:8; 54:1, 2, 21; 55:4; 59:1). While there are some who maintain that this refers to all of Israel, this is difficult since the real Israel is sinful and the Servant, free of sin. Therefore the Servant is identified with an ideal Israel, not the Israel of the present but the Israel of the future.
So David, you are either only listing part of the entry or just working off of an apologetics site. The entry in the EJ is not talking about the servant in Isa 53 being the coming Messiah.
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 28 2008,00:14) Quote (Mandy @ Feb. 27 2008,00:26) Quote Of course, all will know the second time. We know there must be a second time, because all will not know some other time.
A second coming for the promised Messiah is a huge thing to assume (Of course, all will know the second time – you say). David, it is not written!Quote ISAIAH 8:14-15
“And he must become as a sacred place; but as a stone to strike against and as a rock over which to stumble to both the houses of Israel, as a trap and as a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them will be certain to stumble and to fall and be broken, and to be snared and caught.”So MANDY, when the Christ does come (whether Jesus is the Christ or not) it appears that the Jews in general will stumble over him.
And guess what? They did stumble over Jesus.What would you say to this?
Again, you are assuming that this “rock” spoken of is indeed the Messiah.
There is a term for this method, but basically it is taking a presupposition and then assuming into what is read. So if you already see Jesus there, you can make your case.
It's called circular reasoning.Quote The post can be found on the Isaiah 53 thread. Kejonn, I noticed your thread at your site didn't go very far. I found these words interesting:
Quote Your 'buddy' David at the other board is trying to make his point for Jesus in Isaiah 53 and it ain't happening. Who IS that guy? He seems to be a glutton for punishment. –tow (another site)
Quote I don't think David is my “buddy”. –kejonn
Ahh, I didn't know you cared.Don't take it personal David
. You and I have never really “butted heads” but we haven't supported one another either. Therefore, I would not consider us “buddies” in that sense.Ol' Nick, still up to using fear tactics. What death will they face Nick? No eternal life? Can you name one person who came back from the other side to verify that eternal life is true?
What good are promises that only apply to something beyond this life? I mean, after all, while there are promises of eternal bliss in the bible, there are also promises of eternal torture. All for not believing that Jesus was who a book said he was.
Here's a question for you Nick: if you could go back in time and save Jesus from being crucified, would you do it? Let's not speculate on whether you could, but rather would you.
I did at one time but reason and intelligence burst through and let the idea wanting. Salvation from what? Seriously.
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