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So God gave man only one rule, and he broke it. Yet God created the serpent. The serpent spoke to Eve, who had never been told the rule. Since man (or woman) did not know evil before eating the fruit, how would they have a concept of the consequences of disobedience? If they had never experienced death, how would they know what death was?
The Genesis fall is full of logical holes, and is an allegory, not a literal event. It has nothing to do with the fallen state of man. It would be like filling the refrigerator with beer and then telling a teen they should not drink beer.
To find out why God allows suffering, we need to think back to the time when suffering began. When Satan led Adam and Eve into disobeying Jehovah, an important question was raised. Satan did not call into question Jehovah’s power. Even Satan knows that there is no limit to Jehovah’s power. Rather, Satan questioned Jehovah’s right to rule. By calling God a liar who withholds good from his subjects, Satan charged that Jehovah is a bad ruler. (Genesis 3:2-5)
Satan implied that mankind would be better off without God’s rulership. This was an attack on Jehovah’s sovereignty, his right to rule.Adam and Eve rebelled against Jehovah. In effect, they said:
“We do not need Jehovah as our Ruler. We can decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong.”
How could Jehovah settle that issue? How could he teach all intelligent creatures that the rebels were wrong and that his way truly is best? Someone might say that God should simply have destroyed the rebels and made a fresh start. But Jehovah had stated his purpose to fill the earth with the offspring of Adam and Eve, and he wanted them to live in an earthly paradise. (Genesis 1:28)
Jehovah always fulfills his purposes. (Isaiah 55:10, 11) Besides that, getting rid of the rebels in Eden would not have answered the question that had been raised regarding Jehovah’s right to rule.
Let us consider an illustration. Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever but rebellious student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. Implying that the teacher is not capable, this rebel insists that he knows a much better way to solve the problem. Some students think that he is right, and they also become rebellious. What should the teacher do? If he throws the rebels out of the class, what will be the effect on the other students? Will they not believe that their fellow student and those who joined him are right? All the other students in the class might lose respect for the teacher, thinking that he is afraid of being proved wrong. But suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem.
**
Jehovah has done something similar to what the teacher does. Remember that the rebels in Eden were not the only ones involved. Millions of angels were watching. (Job 38:7; Daniel 7:10)
**How Jehovah handled the rebellion would greatly affect all those angels and eventually all intelligent creation.
So, what has Jehovah done? He has allowed Satan to show how he would rule mankind. God has also allowed humans to govern themselves under Satan’s guidance.
The teacher in our illustration knows that the rebel and the students on his side are wrong. But he also knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class. They will understand why the teacher thereafter removes any rebels from the class. Similarly, Jehovah knows that all honesthearted humans and angels will benefit from seeing that Satan and his fellow rebels have failed and that humans cannot govern themselves. Like Jeremiah of old, they will learn this vital truth: “I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”—Jeremiah 10:23.
WHY SO LONG?
Why, though, has Jehovah allowed suffering to go on for so long? And why does he not prevent bad things from happening? Well, consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do. First, he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case. Second, the teacher would not help the rebel to make his case. Similarly, consider two things that Jehovah has determined not to do. First, he has not stopped Satan and those who side with him from trying to prove that they are right. Allowing time to pass has thus been necessary. In the thousands of years of human history, mankind has been able to try every form of self-rule, or human government. Mankind has made some advances in science and other fields, but injustice, poverty, crime, and war have grown ever worse. Human rule has now been shown to be a failure.
Second, Jehovah has not helped Satan to rule this world. If God were to prevent horrible crimes, for instance, would he not, in effect, be supporting the case of the rebels? Would God not be making people think that perhaps humans can govern themselves without disastrous results? If Jehovah were to act in that way, he would become party to a lie. However, “it is impossible for God to lie.”—Hebrews 6:18.
Quote So God gave man only one rule, and he broke it. “Yes, he who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much.”-Luke something or another.
Quote Yet God created the serpent. Quote The serpent spoke to Eve, who had never been told the rule.
Well, God created the angels and one of them used the serpant the way man uses puppets to speak.And I'm not sure why you say she didn't know that “rule.”
this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. 3 But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.’” –gen 3:2,3
Quote Since man (or woman) did not know evil before eating the fruit, how would they have a concept of the consequences of disobedience? Being in the image of God, who is love, they should have known that they had every reason to obey the one who gave them life. As well, they were perfect, without the taint of sin. Their sin was willful. They chose this. Adam had misplaced loyalties, wanting to follow eve and eve let the desire for the fruit grow in her.
Quote If they had never experienced death, how would they know what death was?
Do animals die?
Death among animals as a natural process was evidently already in effect at that time, since they are passed over completely in the Biblical presentation of the introduction of death into the human family. (Compare 2Pe 2:12.)Quote It would be like filling the refrigerator with beer and then telling a teen they should not drink beer. Umm. Completely wrong! Out of all the trees, all the plants, just this one. It was a simple test. To make your illustration fit better, it's like putting a teen in a room filled with nothing but different beers and telling them that this one bottle in the center of the room was yours and yours alone.
If they had any respect for you, they'd leave it alone.
david
Quote To find out why God allows suffering, we need to think back to the time when suffering began. When Satan led Adam and Eve into disobeying Jehovah, an important question was raised. Satan did not call into question Jehovah’s power. Even Satan knows that there is no limit to Jehovah’s power. Rather, Satan questioned Jehovah’s right to rule. By calling God a liar who withholds good from his subjects, Satan charged that Jehovah is a bad ruler. (Genesis 3:2-5)
Satan implied that mankind would be better off without God’s rulership. This was an attack on Jehovah’s sovereignty, his right to rule.
Adam and Eve rebelled against Jehovah. In effect, they said:
“We do not need Jehovah as our Ruler. We can decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong.”
How could Jehovah settle that issue? How could he teach all intelligent creatures that the rebels were wrong and that his way truly is best? Someone might say that God should simply have destroyed the rebels and made a fresh start. But Jehovah had stated his purpose to fill the earth with the offspring of Adam and Eve, and he wanted them to live in an earthly paradise. (Genesis 1:28)
Gen3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
In other words god made a threat that he then did not carry out. He changed the rules and made up a whole list of other sanctions. Isn’t that a demonstration of poor leadership/parenting skill?
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
How can an omniscient god claim everything is ‘good’ when he knows in advance it is all going to go sour? Did he have a problem admitting his mistakes as well?
Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
He created a snake that could talk, and that he knew in advance would be a temptation, yet he had to ask what they had been doing!!I’m with satan on this one, only because god has no ethical credibility and he clearly has lied about being omnipotent and omniscient. Is satan known to have killed at least 2,000,000 humans?
Is the conclusion that god allows suffering because he is too clueless to stop it?
Stuart
Quote So, what has Jehovah done? He has allowed Satan to show how he would rule mankind. God has also allowed humans to govern themselves under Satan’s guidance. Where do you get this codswallop David? I though you had a brain!
Stuart
Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 20 2008,17:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2008,00:19) Hi KJ,
Satn hates his little earthly kingdom being weakened day by day. His rule by demonic minions is destroyed in each new reborn babe in Christ and he can see the day coming when he will have nothing left and knows his own fate is written. While can he uses those many men still loyal to him to oppose the kingdom of light.God allows all this because such fire purifies.
Show me where this has any foundation in the OT.
Hi Stu,
The OT is shown by the NT. Does it annoy you that this is the case?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2008,18:53) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 20 2008,17:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2008,00:19) Hi KJ,
Satn hates his little earthly kingdom being weakened day by day. His rule by demonic minions is destroyed in each new reborn babe in Christ and he can see the day coming when he will have nothing left and knows his own fate is written. While can he uses those many men still loyal to him to oppose the kingdom of light.God allows all this because such fire purifies.
Show me where this has any foundation in the OT.
Hi Stu,
The OT is shown by the NT. Does it annoy you that this is the case?
I think you mean Hi kj.What do you mean that the OT is shown bt the NT? Does the NT rewrite the OT, and if so how can Jesus have said it is all good to teach?
Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2008,19:42) Hi Stu,
The Truth came to Israel.
He shone the light
Did he live a paradox too?Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2008,01:53) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 20 2008,17:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2008,00:19) Hi KJ,
Satn hates his little earthly kingdom being weakened day by day. His rule by demonic minions is destroyed in each new reborn babe in Christ and he can see the day coming when he will have nothing left and knows his own fate is written. While can he uses those many men still loyal to him to oppose the kingdom of light.God allows all this because such fire purifies.
Show me where this has any foundation in the OT.
Hi Stu,
The OT is shown by the NT. Does it annoy you that this is the case?
I don't know where you continue to come up with the idea I am annoyed by what the NT supposedly does or the OT does not or vice versa. I see them both as primitive writings by primitive minds that merely reflect a primitive view of God. In all cases, this view continues to be shaped by the predominant moral structure of the culture.If all that took place in the bible took place today, we'd call the Jews terrorists, and Jesus would be placed in a padded cell.
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 20 2008,02:10) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2008,18:53) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 20 2008,17:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2008,00:19) Hi KJ,
Satn hates his little earthly kingdom being weakened day by day. His rule by demonic minions is destroyed in each new reborn babe in Christ and he can see the day coming when he will have nothing left and knows his own fate is written. While can he uses those many men still loyal to him to oppose the kingdom of light.God allows all this because such fire purifies.
Show me where this has any foundation in the OT.
Hi Stu,
The OT is shown by the NT. Does it annoy you that this is the case?
I think you mean Hi kj.What do you mean that the OT is shown bt the NT? Does the NT rewrite the OT, and if so how can Jesus have said it is all good to teach?
Stuart
Yeah, he won't admit it, but that is likely what he means. Anyone who reads both and is honest will see the description of God in the OT does not match that of the NT. Nor does the view of Satan, and there are no demon possessions either. The dualistic view of the world was an influence from other religions, most likely the latter form of Zoroastrianism.Quote (david @ Mar. 20 2008,00:59) To find out why God allows suffering, we need to think back to the time when suffering began. When Satan led Adam and Eve into disobeying Jehovah, an important question was raised. Satan did not call into question Jehovah’s power. Even Satan knows that there is no limit to Jehovah’s power. Rather, Satan questioned Jehovah’s right to rule. By calling God a liar who withholds good from his subjects, Satan charged that Jehovah is a bad ruler. (Genesis 3:2-5)
Satan implied that mankind would be better off without God’s rulership. This was an attack on Jehovah’s sovereignty, his right to rule.Adam and Eve rebelled against Jehovah. In effect, they said:
“We do not need Jehovah as our Ruler. We can decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong.”
Without the knowledge of good and evil, how could he likely make this decision? He was told not to eat the fruit, and given the consequences if he did, but there is no indication he knew any better since man had supposedly not experienced death.Plus, it was a creation of God who posed the question to them. Since they were not warned that any of God's creatures would “tempt” them, and were innocent, not knowing good and evil, again they could not tell the difference. IOW, they were totally naive.
Yet we are told that through these circumstances, God cursed man because Adam and Eve ate the fruit. It was a setup for failure.
Quote How could Jehovah settle that issue? How could he teach all intelligent creatures that the rebels were wrong and that his way truly is best? Someone might say that God should simply have destroyed the rebels and made a fresh start. But Jehovah had stated his purpose to fill the earth with the offspring of Adam and Eve, and he wanted them to live in an earthly paradise. (Genesis 1:28) Jehovah always fulfills his purposes. (Isaiah 55:10, 11) Besides that, getting rid of the rebels in Eden would not have answered the question that had been raised regarding Jehovah’s right to rule.
His “right to rule”? Who else was supposed to be God? Did He have competition? If you mean “satan”, you cannot find a single place in the OT were “satan” was ever a challenger to Yahweh. It was not until the NT where we see “satan” taking on this role. An influence from another religion, not the Hebrew one. There is no dualism in the OT.
Quote Let us consider an illustration. Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever but rebellious student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. Implying that the teacher is not capable, this rebel insists that he knows a much better way to solve the problem. Some students think that he is right, and they also become rebellious. What should the teacher do? If he throws the rebels out of the class, what will be the effect on the other students? Will they not believe that their fellow student and those who joined him are right? All the other students in the class might lose respect for the teacher, thinking that he is afraid of being proved wrong. But suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem.
Uh…but according to the OT the rebellious man was thrown out of Eden, and according to the NT, the rebellious “satan” was thrown out of heaven. Already you analogy is flawed.Quote **
Jehovah has done something similar to what the teacher does. Remember that the rebels in Eden were not the only ones involved. Millions of angels were watching. (Job 38:7; Daniel 7:10)
**How Jehovah handled the rebellion would greatly affect all those angels and eventually all intelligent creation.
So, what has Jehovah done? He has allowed Satan to show how he would rule mankind. God has also allowed humans to govern themselves under Satan’s guidance.
God is love? OK. Sure. I hope you don't show love to others this way.Quote The teacher in our illustration knows that the rebel and the students on his side are wrong. But he also knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class. They will understand why the teacher thereafter removes any rebels from the class. Similarly, Jehovah knows that all honesthearted humans and angels will benefit from seeing that Satan and his fellow rebels have failed and that humans cannot govern themselves. Like Jeremiah of old, they will learn this vital truth: “I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”—Jeremiah 10:23. WHY SO LONG?
Why, though, has Jehovah allowed suffering to go on for so long? And why does he not prevent bad things from happening? Well, consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do. First, he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case. Second, the teacher would not help the rebel to make his case. Similarly, consider two things that Jehovah has determined not to do. First, he has not stopped Satan and those who side with him from trying to prove that they are right. Allowing time to pass has thus been necessary. In the thousands of years of human history, mankind has been able to try every form of self-rule, or human government. Mankind has made some advances in science and other fields, but injustice, poverty, crime, and war have grown ever worse. Human rule has now been shown to be a failure.
Second, Jehovah has not helped Satan to rule this world. If God were to prevent horrible crimes, for instance, would he not, in effect, be supporting the case of the rebels? Would God not be making people think that perhaps humans can govern themselves without disastrous results? If Jehovah were to act in that way, he would become party to a lie. However, “it is impossible for God to lie.”—Hebrews 6:18.
Where did you come up with this David? This is a scary concept if you really believe it. This view of God shows Him to be manipulative and cruel. But what else can come from the manipulative and cruel view the Jews gave Yahweh in the OT?Quote If all that took place in the bible took place today, we'd call the Jews terrorists, and Jesus would be placed in a padded cell. 
Israel has a more sophisticated way of being terrorist than Palestine but it is still defacto-terrorism, and I'm sure there are many people in padded cells today who claim to be Jesus!
Stuart
The teacher in our illustration knows that the rebel and the students on his side are wrong. But he also knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class. They will understand why the teacher thereafter removes any rebels from the class. Similarly, Jehovah knows that all honesthearted humans and angels will benefit from seeing that Satan and his fellow rebels have failed and that humans cannot govern themselves. Like Jeremiah of old, they will learn this vital truth: “I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”—Jeremiah 10:23.
WHY SO LONG?
Why, though, has Jehovah allowed suffering to go on for so long? And why does he not prevent bad things from happening? Well, consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do. First, he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case. Second, the teacher would not help the rebel to make his case. Similarly, consider two things that Jehovah has determined not to do. First, he has not stopped Satan and those who side with him from trying to prove that they are right. Allowing time to pass has thus been necessary. In the thousands of years of human history, mankind has been able to try every form of self-rule, or human government. Mankind has made some advances in science and other fields, but injustice, poverty, crime, and war have grown ever worse. Human rule has now been shown to be a failure.
Second, Jehovah has not helped Satan to rule this world. If God were to prevent horrible crimes, for instance, would he not, in effect, be supporting the case of the rebels? Would God not be making people think that perhaps humans can govern themselves without disastrous results? If Jehovah were to act in that way, he would become party to a lie. However, “it is impossible for God to lie.”—Hebrews 6:18.
Quote Where did you come up with this David? This is a scary concept if you really believe it. This view of God shows Him to be manipulative and cruel. But what else can come from the manipulative and cruel view the Jews gave Yahweh in the OT? Yes it is really believed and yes it is all good to teach. The key hook in christianity is that because justice often goes missing in day-to-day life, there is some kind of universal celestial justice that we can all wait for on death that will even everything out. So in many ways there is less motivation for a christian to lobby for justice. It is the religious who support the death penalty (just look at the theocracies that have it, including Texas), it is the religious (especially the conservative right) who more often are effective in their opposition to social progress for repressed minorities and it is the religious who want free speech for themselves but not for others. The death penalty is a direct referral to god and the others will be sorted out by him anyway, so there really is no need for human rights.
I disagree with the miserablist view of the modern world. Our problems might be different, but I don’t think they are any worse. In the 14th century people pretty much lived a biblical lifestyle (to the extent that literacy would allow) and that is considered to have been the worst time in all history to be alive. In all cases where nations have tried their hardest to live by scripture it has resulted in pain for many. Notwithstanding the atrocities of the 20th century, I don’t think there has been a better time to live than now, and we have the anti-religious Enlightenment to thank for that.
Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 21 2008,07:26) Hi Stu,
I agree that human religion has caused much suffering.
The whore has a lot to answer for.
You have more in common with the Catholic church than I do. Are you beginning to see the light?Stuart
Hi Stu,
If you are searching for the light we can help you.
Why do you align with the antichrist whore?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2008,14:26) Hi Stu,
I agree that human religion has caused much suffering.
The whore has a lot to answer for.
How do you discern between “human religion” and “God's religion”?Hi KJ,
Jn4
21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Jas 1
26If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Stu and KJ,
Both of you are obviously critical of religion, yet what's your take on deism? Defining a deist as, “One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason.”
Thomas Paine a strong proponent of such wrote, All other systems have something in them that either shock our reason, or are repugnant to it, and man, if he thinks at all, must stifle his reason in order to force himself to believe them. “But in Deism our reason and our belief become happily united. The wonderful structure of the universe, and everything we behold in the system of the creation, prove to us, far better than books can do, the existence of a God, and at the same time proclaim His attributes.”
One key difference between Deism and the “revealed” religions is that Deists don't believe faith is required to believe in God. Quoting Voltaire, “What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason.”
I would be interested in your comments.
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