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Hi,
Scripture tells us Christ means Messiah.John 1:41
He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which translated means Christ).Yet different words are used.
John 4:25
The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah[3323] is coming ( He who is called Christ[5547]); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.”Mt1
NASB
1The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah[5547], the son of David, the son of Abraham:KJV
1The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.Did NASB have the right to translate it as Messiah?
NIV does not tell us of any manuscript variation there but perhaps there is.Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2008,20:43) The Messiah has already come because: Quote Dan 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these; Dan 2:29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came [into thy mind] upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
Dan 2:30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for [any] wisdom that I have more than any living, but for [their] sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.
Dan 2:31 ¶ Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness [was] excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof [was] terrible.
Dan 2:32 This image's head [was] of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
Dan 2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet [that were] of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Dan 2:36 ¶ This [is] the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, [art] a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
Dan 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou [art] this head of gold.
Dan 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all [things]: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
Dan 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Dan 2:42 And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Dan 2:44 AND IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM, WHICH SHALL NEVER BE DESTROYED: AND THE KINGDOM SHALL NOT BE LEFT TO OTHER PEOPLE, [but] IT SHALL BREAK IN PIECES AND CONSUME ALL THESE KINGDOMS, AND IT SHALL STAND FOR EVER.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream [is] certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
This passage does not say the Messiah has already come. Most Jews will tell you that this is the messianic kingdom that has not come yet. None of the messianic prophecies have been fulfilled yet so the messianic era as presented in the OT has yet to come (if it ever will).Or the ones who wrote the OT? You say it is true but you seem to take the NT as the truth and avoid the OT like a plague.
Hi KJ,
Not so amigo,
This is the planMatthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.But the New reveals the Old.
Mark 2:21
No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.No, but it does speak of the messianic era. The messianic era, as shown in the OT, has not even come close to happening.
Hi KJ,
Did you stumble over the stumbling stone as well?
The kingdom of God is among us and the violent are forcing their way in.Do planted seeds immediately flower and set grain?
Hi,
Ps 40
6Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.7Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
8I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
9I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
10I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
How could anyone who does not know the ways of the righteousness of God recognise the messiah Jesus in this psalm?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2008,13:03) Hi KJ,
Did you stumble over the stumbling stone as well?
You do have a standard list of responses. I've seen this one several times before and it never seems to have any effect.BTW, God willingly threw a stumbling stone in our way?
Quote The kingdom of God is among us and the violent are forcing their way in. Do planted seeds immediately flower and set grain?
What violent? You mean the millions who have died at the hands of Christians in the past?But as usual, you avoided the last post. I said the OT speaks of a messianic era. That era has not come. That means Jesus could not have been the end-times Messiah.
The Jews are still looking.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2008,14:51) Hi,
Ps 40
6Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.7Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
8I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
9I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
10I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
How could anyone who does not know the ways of the righteousness of God recognise the messiah Jesus in this psalm?
If God does not desire a sacrifice, where does that leave the death of Jesus?Beyond that, just because a NT writer references an OT verse does not mean anything was fulfilled. As stated here above, if God does not desire a sacrifice and a sin offering than Jesus' death was in vain.
Finally, note v10
- 10I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
See, the writer knew of the salvation God provides, long before Jesus. Indeed, this whole passage really reduces — or even nullifies — Jesus' death.
Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 19 2008,10:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2008,13:03) Hi KJ,
Did you stumble over the stumbling stone as well?
You do have a standard list of responses. I've seen this one several times before and it never seems to have any effect.BTW, God willingly threw a stumbling stone in our way?
Quote The kingdom of God is among us and the violent are forcing their way in. Do planted seeds immediately flower and set grain?
What violent? You mean the millions who have died at the hands of Christians in the past?But as usual, you avoided the last post. I said the OT speaks of a messianic era. That era has not come. That means Jesus could not have been the end-times Messiah.
The Jews are still looking.
Hi KJ,
The blind and those who have their vision veiled stumble but those with the light of Christ see the dangers. Why are you so impatient for the full flowering?Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 19 2008,10:52) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2008,14:51) Hi,
Ps 40
6Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.7Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
8I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
9I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
10I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
How could anyone who does not know the ways of the righteousness of God recognise the messiah Jesus in this psalm?
If God does not desire a sacrifice, where does that leave the death of Jesus?Beyond that, just because a NT writer references an OT verse does not mean anything was fulfilled. As stated here above, if God does not desire a sacrifice and a sin offering than Jesus' death was in vain.
Finally, note v10
- 10I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
See, the writer knew of the salvation God provides, long before Jesus. Indeed, this whole passage really reduces — or even nullifies — Jesus' death.
Hi KJ,
Do you think sacrificial rituals were the whole plan of God? Faith and grace are eternal.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2008,18:01) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 19 2008,10:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2008,13:03) Hi KJ,
Did you stumble over the stumbling stone as well?
You do have a standard list of responses. I've seen this one several times before and it never seems to have any effect.BTW, God willingly threw a stumbling stone in our way?
Quote The kingdom of God is among us and the violent are forcing their way in. Do planted seeds immediately flower and set grain?
What violent? You mean the millions who have died at the hands of Christians in the past?But as usual, you avoided the last post. I said the OT speaks of a messianic era. That era has not come. That means Jesus could not have been the end-times Messiah.
The Jews are still looking.
Hi KJ,
The blind and those who have their vision veiled stumble but those with the light of Christ see the dangers. Why are you so impatient for the full flowering?
The only reason you say the Jews were blind is because you get that from the NT, which is unfortunately only one side of the story. Anyone can be misrepresented. This is like talking about someone behind their backs.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2008,18:03) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 19 2008,10:52) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2008,14:51) Hi,
Ps 40
6Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.7Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
8I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
9I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
10I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
How could anyone who does not know the ways of the righteousness of God recognise the messiah Jesus in this psalm?
If God does not desire a sacrifice, where does that leave the death of Jesus?Beyond that, just because a NT writer references an OT verse does not mean anything was fulfilled. As stated here above, if God does not desire a sacrifice and a sin offering than Jesus' death was in vain.
Finally, note v10
- 10I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
See, the writer knew of the salvation God provides, long before Jesus. Indeed, this whole passage really reduces — or even nullifies — Jesus' death.
Hi KJ,
Do you think sacrificial rituals were the whole plan of God? Faith and grace are eternal.
Why was grace and glory not given before Jesus? Could an all-powerful, all-loving God not provide those with a sacrifice, which Psalm 40 says God does NOT desire?So here's the deal: God does not desire sacrifices long before Jesus, yet Jesus is sacrificed anyway? Why does that not add up?
Quote BTW, God willingly threw a stumbling stone in our way? Or he knew the hearts of the majority of Israelites and understood the future.
After the nation of Israel was crushed by the Roman army, the people were enslaved and dispersed around the world. In their adversity they began to wonder why the Messiah had apparently missed his appointment with the Jewish people.
In the Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 96-99 (written roughly between 200-500 C.E.), the rabbis expressed their disappointment that the Messiah had not come during the expected time. They explain that the delay in the coming of the Messiah was due to the sin of Israel. Otherwise, he would have come around the year four thousand after creation (precisely the time Jesus of Nazareth came).–See Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Appendix IX., pg. 737-741.In Sanhedrin 97b. Rabbi Rabh states:
“All the predestined dates for redemption (the coming of Messiah) have passed and the matter now depends only on the repentance and good deeds.”–Sanhedrin 97b.
Here Rabbi Rabh expresses his pain and displeasure that the Messiah did not come when he was expected. From that time onward, according to Rabbi Rabh, the coming of the Messiah depended on the nation of Israel turning to God in repentance.Further along in Sanhedrin we find this quote:
“The Tannadebe Eliyyahu teaches: the world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost!”–Sanhedrin 97a & b.In the Yakult on Psalms 139:16-17 we find the statement:
“This world is to last 6000 years; 2000 years it was waste and desolate, 2000 years marks the period under the law, 2000 years under the Messiah. And because our sins are increased, they are increased.”–Yakult on Psalms 139:16-17, (vol. 2, pg. 129d).The Jews believed the Messiah should have arrived right around the time Jesus did.
But for some reason, there was no Messianic arrival at the time of Jesus arrival!
The problem wasn’t that messiah did not arrive. The Jews were obsessed with the idea of a Messiah who would give them triumph and material greatness. Hence, they were not prepared for the humble, nonpolitical Jesus of Nazareth.
The religious leaders also feared that Jesus’ teachings would upset the existing state of affairs and jeopardize their prominent positions. (John 11:48)The Almighty, knowing this, seeing the future told them that they would stumble over him. He would be a stone of stumbling for them. Not that Jehovah wanted this, but this was how things were going to happen. It was the Jews at fault, not God.
david
Quote But as usual, you avoided the last post. I said the OT speaks of a messianic era. That era has not come. Hi Kejonn. I don't know why and I'm not sure exactly what it's based on,, but yes, they did believe in a messianic era. And they seem to believe for whatever reason that it would begin around the time of Jesus. The first 2 quarters of that century, there were higher expectations for Messiah than usual. Again, I don't know why, or why they expected the messiah around that time, but it seems they did.
And when he didn't come (around the time of Jesus) they decided that it must have been because of their sinfullness. He would come later. Sure.
Quote Further along in Sanhedrin we find this quote:
“The Tannadebe Eliyyahu teaches: the world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost!”–Sanhedrin 97a & b.In the Yakult on Psalms 139:16-17 we find the statement:
“This world is to last 6000 years; 2000 years it was waste and desolate, 2000 years marks the period under the law, 2000 years under the Messiah. And because our sins are increased, they are increased.”–Yakult on Psalms 139:16-17, (vol. 2, pg. 129d).You say that the OT speaks of a messianic era and that this era has not come. The jews also believed in a messianic era. And when it didn't come (around the time of Jesus) they had to alter their hopes.
david
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2008,18:19) Hi KJ,
God makes sure all righteousness is satisfied.
How so? Psalm 40 says God does not desire sacrifices. The NT says that Jesus died as a sacrifice. These two beliefs are in opposition.This does not therefore fulfill any form of righteousness. It just tries to make Jesus' death into something besides the death of one of many who said they were the messiah.
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