- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (david @ Mar. 11 2008,02:06) So, getting back to the topic, what do others think of the prophecy of “messiah the leader” and the 70 weeks in danial 9:24-27? A definite time frame is given for when messiah would arrive–69 weeks (of years) after the word being given to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.
This prophecy of “messiah the leader” is about terminating the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error.
We're told that after the 7 and 62 weeks “messiah would be cut off.”
That leaves one week, the 70th week, to finish off sin, etc.We're also told that “at the half of the week [the 70th] he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.”
Interestingly, 3 1/2 years later (the half of the week [1 week being 7 years]) Jesus was cut off in death.
The need for the animal sacrifices and the gift offerings prescribed by the Law ceased when the resurrected Jesus presented the value of his sacrificed human life to God in heaven. Although the Jewish priests continued to make offerings until the destruction of Jerusalem’s temple in 70 C.E., such sacrifices were no longer acceptable to God. They had been replaced by a better sacrifice, one that never had to be repeated.I would like to discuss this subject.
- Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.
Dan 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.Who destroyed the city and the sanctuary? Not the Jews, the Romans. So the prince here would be a Roman leader. Context here says “he” — the Roman leader — would make such a covenant.
Beyond that, had sacrifice officially ended with the death of Jesus, the temple veil would not have been the only thing in the temple destroyed (though the bible only records this happening). Indeed, had sacrifices officially ended, the temple itself should have come down. Yet it remained and the Jews continued to sacrifice until 70 CE. In fact, some sects even continued after the destruction of the temple.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2008,10:05) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 10 2008,17:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 10 2008,07:36) Hi Stu,
All the evidence you need will be given to you after you die.
That is wishful thinking on your part. If you think that there will be some kind of celestial justice and that non-believers have some pretty testing lessons to come, then I'm afraid that says more about your attitude to your fellow humans that mine. I place no judgement on your actions at all, other than challenging some of the absurd fundamentalist dogmas you are so keen on, or ideas that have caused harm. You would like to see my entire existence judged in your favour. I find that attitude hard to square with the Jesus concept (as he would seem to be with Paul removed).Stuart
Hi Stu,
No wishful thinking.
Just what we have gleaned from studying God's revelations.
There is a time coming when all will stand before Jesus and give account of their lives.
So I am right, then.Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2008,19:21) Hi david,
You may find this link helpful
http://endtimepilgrim.org/70wks1.htm
Oh, man is this helpful to me! Thank you. I don't feel qualified to discuss th subject but I'd like to start studying it.Hi mandy,
Yes I wondered if you would like it. I do not accept it all. But there is much we can learn from it.Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 11 2008,13:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2008,19:21) Hi david,
You may find this link helpful
http://endtimepilgrim.org/70wks1.htm
Oh, man is this helpful to me! Thank you. I don't feel qualified to discuss th subject but I'd like to start studying it.
After you wade through all of that, try http://seventyweeksdaniel.netfirms.com/cover_p….eks.htmHow is everyone? Been away awhile. Don't fear, not planning to come back other than this post.
Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 11 2008,06:27) Quote (david @ Mar. 11 2008,02:06) So, getting back to the topic, what do others think of the prophecy of “messiah the leader” and the 70 weeks in danial 9:24-27? A definite time frame is given for when messiah would arrive–69 weeks (of years) after the word being given to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.
This prophecy of “messiah the leader” is about terminating the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error.
We're told that after the 7 and 62 weeks “messiah would be cut off.”
That leaves one week, the 70th week, to finish off sin, etc.We're also told that “at the half of the week [the 70th] he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.”
Interestingly, 3 1/2 years later (the half of the week [1 week being 7 years]) Jesus was cut off in death.
The need for the animal sacrifices and the gift offerings prescribed by the Law ceased when the resurrected Jesus presented the value of his sacrificed human life to God in heaven. Although the Jewish priests continued to make offerings until the destruction of Jerusalem’s temple in 70 C.E., such sacrifices were no longer acceptable to God. They had been replaced by a better sacrifice, one that never had to be repeated.I would like to discuss this subject.
- Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.
Dan 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.Who destroyed the city and the sanctuary? Not the Jews, the Romans. So the prince here would be a Roman leader. Context here says “he” — the Roman leader — would make such a covenant.
This post too. Try to find out more about Vespasian. Supposedly he made a deal with the Jews to allow them to continue sacrifices but after 3.5 years, the Romans broke the deal. They were sending goats over the wall and then the Romans sent a pig. That was the deal breaker as you could imagine.Vespasian was the one that led the sack of Jerusalem so he matches the prince in these verses.
Quote Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.
Dan 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.Who destroyed the city and the sanctuary? Not the Jews, the Romans. So the prince here would be a Roman leader. Context here says “he” — the Roman leader — would make such a covenant.
Except the context of the entire prophecy is dealing with “messiah the leader.”
***
♦How do Jewish commentators understand this prophecy?
There is no one standard, accepted interpretation for this prophecy on the part of Jewish commentators. Some try to relate portions of it to the return from Babylonian exile (537 B.C.E.), others to the period of the Maccabees’ rebellion against the forces of Hellenization (168-165 B.C.E.), and others to the destruction of the second temple by the Romans in 70 C.E., while still others relate portions of the prophecy to a yet future coming of the Messiah.
On the whole one could say that present-day Jewish interpretations fall short on two basic points:
1. They tend to minimize the importance of this prophecy, totally ignoring its stated purpose to bring an end to sin and iniquity and to establish everlasting righteousness.
2. None of these standard explanations accurately fit into any reasonable time calculation, which was the very purpose in giving Daniel this prophecy in a form that could be used to determine when the fulfillment would come about.—Compare Daniel 9:2.
♦Is there an explanation of this prophecy that harmonizes both with its stated purpose and with historical facts?
Notice the following:
Seventy weeks: Jewish commentators almost universally understand this to mean weeks of years, in other words, 490 years. This is in harmony with the Scriptural prophetic calculation of “a year for each day.”—Numbers 14:34; Leviticus 25:8; Ezekiel 4:6.
♦“From the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem” Nehemiah relates that in the 20th year of King Artaxerxes, he was given the commission to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. This was in the year 455 B.C.E.—Nehemiah 2:1-8; see Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2, pages 614-16, 899-900
Seven weeks: Seven weeks (of years, or 49 years) relates to the period of completing the restoration of the city, Jerusalem.
Sixty-two weeks: Sixty-two weeks (of years, or 434 years) relates to the period after the completion of the city until the coming of the Messiah.
Adding these two time periods together, one comes to 69 weeks of years, or 483 years. Counting from the starting point of 455 B.C.E. shows the end of the 69th week to be 29 C.E.
29 C.E.: A Jew named Jesus (Hebrew, Yeshua), born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth, from the line of David, begins preaching throughout the land of Israel.—Luke 3:1-3, 21, 22.
♦“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off” (Daniel 9:26, NW): In the year 33 C.E., Jesus is killed, after preaching for three and a half years. This corresponds to what Daniel 9:27 states.
♦“He will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease” (Daniel 9:27, NW): Jesus spoke of his death as a sacrifice. (Matthew 20:28) It brought a culmination in God’s eyes to the sacrifices offered under the Law covenant. (Hebrews 8:1-13) Jesus’ sacrificial death provided the basis for all that was mentioned in Daniel 9:24.
It would bring forgiveness of sin.
It confirmed God’s promises and prophecies.
It provided a legal basis according to God’s standards for everlasting righteousness in the future.
All of this occurred, as the prophecy indicated, before the destruction of the second temple.
Would not any other explanation indicating a past fulfillment fall short of the stated purpose?
Pointing to a future fulfillment of this prophecy would take it far out of its given time period of 70 weeks of years and it would not be prior to the destruction of Jerusalem’s second temple.(((The punctuation found in the present-day Hebrew text (the original Hebrew text had no vowel pointing or punctuation), which causes a different understanding of this time division, is not original but rather is an addition by scribes in the Middle Ages who evidently were reacting to the interpretation of this text as being fulfilled in Jesus.)))
Quote They were sending goats over the wall and then the Romans sent a pig. That was the deal breaker as you could imagine. Vespasian was the one that led the sack of Jerusalem so he matches the prince in these verses.
Whom does history show to be the “people of a leader that is coming,” the people that did come after Jesus was anointed as “Messiah the leader” in 29 C.E. and that did bring the city of Jerusalem and the holy place of its temple to ruin and desolation? It was the military “people” under the “leader,” General Titus the son of the Roman Emperor Vespasian. This fact harmonizes with Jesus’ words to his inquiring apostles: “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.”—Luke 21:20, 21.
Quote (david @ Mar. 11 2008,19:20) Quote Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.
Dan 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.Who destroyed the city and the sanctuary? Not the Jews, the Romans. So the prince here would be a Roman leader. Context here says “he” — the Roman leader — would make such a covenant.
Except the context of the entire prophecy is dealing with “messiah the leader.”
Is it? There are three people from 9:25-9:27: a prince in v25, an anointed one in v26a, and a prince of the opposing force in v26b. So the last person to be spoken of before v27 is the prince of the opposing force. Thus, contextually, the person spoken of in v27 is the prince of Rome.Quote (Towshab @ Mar. 12 2008,11:06) Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 11 2008,13:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2008,19:21) Hi david,
You may find this link helpful
http://endtimepilgrim.org/70wks1.htm
Oh, man is this helpful to me! Thank you. I don't feel qualified to discuss th subject but I'd like to start studying it.
After you wade through all of that, try http://seventyweeksdaniel.netfirms.com/cover_p….eks.htmHow is everyone? Been away awhile. Don't fear, not planning to come back other than this post.
Hi Tow,Thanks, I'll take a look at this website as well. I have learned to really appreciate both sides of an issue.
I wouldn't stay away from HeavenNet unless you really want to. I think it's good to challenge what we know. Clearly there are some holes in what is called orthodox belief.
Take care,
MandyWhat both Jews and Christians fail to bring forward is that 1975 years have passed since Jesus and many more have passed since the Jews' last “deliverer”. I think both have been in a mode of very wishful thinking for thousands of years. Both looked for either Jesus or the messiah to come back in the first century. That is why more and more Jews are becoming secular. I foresee Christianity moving the same way in the future as Jesus fails to return.
Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 12 2008,15:04) What both Jews and Christians fail to bring forward is that 1975 years have passed since Jesus and many more have passed since the Jews' last “deliverer”. I think both have been in a mode of very wishful thinking for thousands of years. Both looked for either Jesus or the messiah to come back in the first century. That is why more and more Jews are becoming secular. I foresee Christianity moving the same way in the future as Jesus fails to return.
Don't toss out your eternity beliefs all together, bro. Just because no one has returned from the dead with an eternity review doesn't mean it still isn't out there. Plus, a lot of what Jesus shared is written in parables and codes, so it seems. We cannot know for sure when Jesus is to return. Even Jesus didn't know when he was going to return.I tend to think that when we try to put God (or Jesus for that matter) in a box and attach labels to them OR timeframes to their teachings, we are in for frustration. I just don't think it should be done.
Eternity is a mystery until it happens.
Death and the here-after will never be a “known”. It can only be hoped for. I believe you can do this without putting your life here on earth in the balance while you wait.Don't lose hope. Hope does not attack your intelligence. It is an accessory to it.
I think that when you lose hope, you feel duped by God and bitterness sets in. You then think the whole thing is a sham and throw in the towel. Let me gently remind you of the time when you were first saved. Do you remember how “real” that was? It's still real, bro. But when faith is suffocated, it's hard to imagine we can embrace something that we don't fully understand.I have come to accept that just because I don't fully understand something, that doesn't mean it isn't real or true.
When you are reading thoughts and *facts* given by other's you really have to remember that they are only pointing out when someone has pointed out to them. It doesn't mean it is true and factual. All these folks who are debunking the Genesis theories….how do they know for sure? Were they there during that timeframe on earth? Things (climate and so many other factors) could have been different, even cause and effect could have been different. It was a new world back then. We just don't know. So hold the information you receive lightly.
There is something that ther heart can feel that the brain cannot fully comprehend, and I believe that is the holy spirit of God.
Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 12 2008,15:04) What both Jews and Christians fail to bring forward is that 1975 years have passed since Jesus and many more have passed since the Jews' last “deliverer”. I think both have been in a mode of very wishful thinking for thousands of years. Both looked for either Jesus or the messiah to come back in the first century. That is why more and more Jews are becoming secular. I foresee Christianity moving the same way in the future as Jesus fails to return.
I'm sorry kejonn I have to disagree with you here. Those who have not been allowed to develop critical thinking will always be subject to being brainwashed. We know more and more how woefully wrong Genesis is about history yet there are more fundamentalist christians today than at any other time in history, and their beliefs are as fanatical as ever despite the already huge number of predicted reconing days that have come and gone with no rapture or mass resurrections. The industry is too profitable to be allowed to wane.Stuart
Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 11 2008,23:38) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 12 2008,15:04) What both Jews and Christians fail to bring forward is that 1975 years have passed since Jesus and many more have passed since the Jews' last “deliverer”. I think both have been in a mode of very wishful thinking for thousands of years. Both looked for either Jesus or the messiah to come back in the first century. That is why more and more Jews are becoming secular. I foresee Christianity moving the same way in the future as Jesus fails to return.
Don't toss out your eternity beliefs all together, bro. Just because no one has returned from the dead with an eternity review doesn't mean it still isn't out there. Plus, a lot of what Jesus shared is written in parables and codes, so it seems. We cannot know for sure when Jesus is to return. Even Jesus didn't know when he was going to return.
If you read the OT closely, there was a pattern. It went like this: Jews were close to God, all was good. Then as they got lazy, they moved away from Him. Then, a foreign force took them under their subjection and the Jews blamed this on being spiritually distant from Yahweh. So then they all repented and God sent a deliverer.The cycle repeated itself often. But as time went by since the OT, there has been no really discernible repeat of this pattern. They have not had a singular deliverer since the OT days. Many do not even look for a messiah anymore and this includes those who are observant Jews.
Christianity just picked up the same hope, but placed it in Jesus as one who would return from the dead to deliver. Paul thought it was happening in his life.
There have been doomsayers since the 1st century. You can see there are many still today. I recall hearing “we're in the end times, I know it” from the pulpit 20 years ago. But generations come and go.
With each failed doomsayer comes those who just leave the fold altogether. The failed WWCG produced many unbelievers. When Weinland's predictions fail to pan out, many will leave Christianity. He is not the only one out there saying these things, and many are ex-WWCG folks. Seems they were big into seeing the world come to an end.
All of it comes from a mindset of escapism. I can understand that, but I think people should focus more of their life in making what we have better rather than longing to escape it.
Quote I tend to think that when we try to put God (or Jesus for that matter) in a box and attach labels to them OR timeframes to their teachings, we are in for frustration. I just don't think it should be done.
But isn't that what the bible has done?Quote Eternity is a mystery until it happens.
Death and the here-after will never be a “known”. It can only be hoped for. I believe you can do this without putting your life here on earth in the balance while you wait.
Yet many people will do strange things when they long to leave the earth. That is why I think liberal Christians are better off than those who place too much stock in the various prophecies of the bible.Quote Don't lose hope. Hope does not attack your intelligence. It is an accessory to it. I think that when you lose hope, you feel duped by God and bitterness sets in. You then think the whole thing is a sham and throw in the towel. Let me gently remind you of the time when you were first saved. Do you remember how “real” that was? It's still real, bro. But when faith is suffocated, it's hard to imagine we can embrace something that we don't fully understand.
I haven't lost hope. I've just put hope on seeing a fuller life on earth rather than longing for something I have only been promised in a 1900 year old book.Even Jews have a healthier view of our walk here. They don't long for the afterlife. They long to serve God here. My hope is being a partner and friend to God and doing my part to help those around me.
Quote I have come to accept that just because I don't fully understand something, that doesn't mean it isn't real or true. When you are reading thoughts and *facts* given by other's you really have to remember that they are only pointing out when someone has pointed out to them. It doesn't mean it is true and factual. All these folks who are debunking the Genesis theories….how do they know for sure? Were they there during that timeframe on earth? Things (climate and so many other factors) could have been different, even cause and effect could have been different. It was a new world back then. We just don't know. So hold the information you receive lightly.
There is something that ther heart can feel that the brain cannot fully comprehend, and I believe that is the holy spirit of God.
The reason the Genesis account of creation loses ground is that modern archaeology is showing that much of the stories of the bible are incorrect historically. If the writers got it wrong about that, what makes you think they got the story of creation right if they were not even there to witness it? There is really an allegory there and the Hebrew people don't see the same allegory that the Christians do. Christians see “original sin” while Jews do not.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2008,23:19) Hi Kj,
Instead of foreseeing as a philosopher
why not follow Jesus?
Because he's dead? Many of his teachings live on, but he really just expanded on the thought of those who preceded him.You are a prime example of putting the created before the Creator.
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 12 2008,03:34) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 12 2008,15:04) What both Jews and Christians fail to bring forward is that 1975 years have passed since Jesus and many more have passed since the Jews' last “deliverer”. I think both have been in a mode of very wishful thinking for thousands of years. Both looked for either Jesus or the messiah to come back in the first century. That is why more and more Jews are becoming secular. I foresee Christianity moving the same way in the future as Jesus fails to return.
I'm sorry kejonn I have to disagree with you here. Those who have not been allowed to develop critical thinking will always be subject to being brainwashed. We know more and more how woefully wrong Genesis is about history yet there are more fundamentalist christians today than at any other time in history, and their beliefs are as fanatical as ever despite the already huge number of predicted reconing days that have come and gone with no rapture or mass resurrections. The industry is too profitable to be allowed to wane.Stuart
You're probably right. But I long to see Christianity go through another reform to become a more practical faith. Judaism for the most part has. It will take many more years for Islam to even come close.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
