- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Someone, recently has said this:
I guess I would have to say that [Towshab] has drawn some pretty good pictures of what the OT says the Messiah should be like; what the OT predicts that the Messiah should fulfill, and Jesus has come-up short. Most have said that certain prophesies will only be fulfilled in Jesus' second coming – but in the OT there is NO talk of a “second coming” for the Messsiah. That has confused me and made me doubt.
Tow has made quite a case. In most instances Nick has tried his best to answer him and other's have taken a stab at it, but he has posted some convincing things. It appears that Jesus doesn't match a lot of what is predicted about the coming Messiah. My doubt center's around – WHY? Why doesn't he match? And have we just created a “second coming” to cover-up that he didn't do all he was supposed to the first time?
For some time I have been wanting to actually discuss Isaiah 52:13- 53:12, along with Daniel 9, and some other messianic prophecies. But these ones especially. I just haven't had the time.
I would really like to keep this thread to only discussing the prophecies of the Hebrew scriptures and how they relate to Jesus.
david
By Jesus’ day the Jews had suffered for centuries under a series of harsh Gentile rulers. They longed for a political deliverer.
But to the great disappointment of the Jews, Jesus was no political hero. On the contrary, he claimed that his Kingdom ‘was no part of the world.’ (John 18:36)
Furthermore, Jesus did not then usher in the glorious Messianic age foreseen by the prophet Isaiah. (Isaiah 11:4-9)
And when Jesus was put to death as a criminal, the nation as a whole lost interest in him.
Undeterred by these events, Jesus’ followers continued to proclaim him as the Messiah. What accounted for their remarkable zeal? It was the belief that Jesus’ death fulfilled prophecy, specifically the prophecy of Isaiah 52:13–53:12. This reads in part:
“Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, . . . for he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground . . . He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: He was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried . . . He was crushed because of our iniquities: The chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed. All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way . . . He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, . . . he was cut off out of the land of the living. . . . And they made his grave with the wicked.”—Jerusalem Press.
[I think we should study the JP version and try to understand why it has some differences.]While some have asserted that this servant spoken of was Israel, Israel was a sinful servant. (Isaiah 42:19; 44:21, 22)
Encyclopaedia Judaica draws this contrast: “The real Israel is sinful and the Servant [of Isaiah 53], free of sin.” (Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1971, Volume 9, page 65.)
The Suffering Servant in Rabbinical Writings
Over the centuries a number of respected Jewish authorities have applied the prophecy of Isaiah 52:13–53:12 to the Messiah:
The Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel (1st century C.E.). In its rendering of Isaiah 52:13, the Targum says: “Behold, my servant, the Anointed One (or, the Messiah) shall prosper.”
The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 98b) (c. 3rd century C.E.): “The Messiah—what is his name? . . . The Rabbis say, The leprous one [; those] of the house of Rabbi [say, The sick one], as it is said, ‘Surely he hath borne our sicknesses.’”—Compare Isaiah 53:4.24
Moses Maimonides (Rambam) (12th century): “What is to be the manner of Messiah’s advent, and where will be the place of his first appearance? . . . In the words of Isaiah [52:15], when describing the manner in which the kings will hearken to him, At him kings will shut their mouth.”
Moses ibn Crispin Cohen (14th century): “I am pleased to interpret [Isaiah 53], in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis, of the King Messiah, and will be careful, so far as I am able, to adhere to the literal sense: thus, possibly, I shall be free from the forced and farfetched interpretations of which others [Jewish commentators] have been guilty.”
In what way did the servant suffer ‘because of our iniquities’? (Isaiah 53:5)
Thousands of Jews came to see undeniable parallels between the Suffering Servant and Jesus of Nazareth. Like that Servant, Jesus was of humble origin. Ultimately, he was despised and shunned. Though he carried out no political conquest, he bore the diseases of others, miraculously curing their ailments. Though innocent, he died as a result of judicial miscarriage—a fate he accepted without protest.
Why Would Messiah Have To Die?
Explains Isaiah 53:10:
“But the LORD chose to crush him by disease, that, if he made himself an offering for guilt, he might see offspring and have long life, and that through him the LORD’s purpose might prosper.” (Ta)This alluded to the Levitical practice of offering up animal victims to atone for sin or guilt. Messiah would suffer a disgraceful death, but like a sacrificial victim, his death would have atoning merit.
If Messiah died, though, how could he fulfill the prophecies about his glorious rule, much less “see offspring and have long life”?
Logically, by a resurrection from the dead. (Compare 1 Kings 17:17-24.)Messiah’s resurrection would also resolve the seeming contradiction between Daniel 7:13, which predicted that the Messiah would triumphantly come on the clouds of heaven, and Zechariah 9:9, which said that he would humbly arrive on an ass.
The Talmud tried to explain this paradox by asserting: “If they are meritorious, he will come with the clouds of heaven; if not, lowly and riding upon an ass.” (Sanhedrin 98a)
But this would mean that the prophecy at either Daniel 7:13 or Zechariah 9:9 would remain unfulfilled.Yet, Messiah’s resurrection would allow him to fulfill both prophecies.
Initially, he would come humbly to suffer and die. After his resurrection, he would return in glory and usher in the heavenly Messianic rule.Though Jesus is barely mentioned in the Talmud, what little is said tries “to belittle the person of Jesus by ascribing to him illegitimate birth, magic, and a shameful death.”—The Jewish Encyclopedia, 1910, Volume VII, page 170.
Says Israeli scholar Pinchas Lapide: “Talmudic passages about Jesus . . . were mutilated, distorted, or obliterated by church censors.” It is thus “more than likely that Jesus originally had a much greater impact on rabbinical literature than the fragments we have today bear witness to.”—Israelis, Jews, and Jesus,by Pinchas Lapide, 1979, pages 73-4.
The Palestinian Targum applied the fulfillment of Gen 3:15 to “the day of King Messiah.”
Neophyti 1, Targum Palestinense, Ms de la Biblioteca Vaticana, Génesis, 1968, Volume I, pages 503-4; The Messiah: An Aramaic Interpretation, by Samson H. Levey, 1974, pages 2-3.Under the pressure of Christendom’s conversion efforts, Judaism reassessed its views.
Many Scripture texts that had long been applied to the Messiah were reinterpreted.
The Suffering Servant in Deutero-Isaiah, by Christopher R. North, First Edition, 1948, page 18; The Jewish People and Jesus Christ, by Jakób Jocz, 1954 (first published in 1949), pages 205-7, 282; The Pentateuch and Haftorahs, edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz, 1929-36, Volume I, page 202; Palestinian Judaism in New Testament Times, by Werner Förster, translated by Gordon E. Harris, 1964, pages 199-200As modern times dawned, under the influence of higher criticism of the Bible, some Jewish scholars concluded that the Messianic hope does not appear in the Bible at all!
Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1971, Volume 11, page 1407; U.S. Catholic, December 1983, page 20.The Talmud says: “When thou seest a generation overwhelmed by many troubles as by a river, await [the Messiah].” (Sanhedrin 98a)
The Messianic hope was born and nurtured with the Jews. Among them that hope has grown dim. Its brilliance has been nearly extinguished by centuries of suffering and disappointment. Ironically, millions among the nations, or Gentiles, have come to seek and ultimately to embrace a Messiah. Is it just a coincidence that Isaiah said of the Messiah:
“Unto him shall the nations [Gentiles] seek”? (Isaiah 11:10, JP)
Should not Jews also seek the Messiah themselves?
It is in vain, however, to seek a future Messiah. Were he to arrive, how could he establish himself as a bona fide descendant of King David?
Though such records existed in Jesus’ day, his claim of being a legitimate descendant of David was never successfully challenged. (See The Life of Flavius Josephus, 1:1-6.)
Could any future Messianic claimant ever produce s
uch credentials? One must therefore seek the Messiah who came in the past.ISAIAH 52:13-53:12
“Look! My servant will act with insight. He will be in high station and will certainly be elevated and exalted very much. To the extent that many have stared at him in amazement—so much was the disfigurement as respects his appearance more than that of any other man and as respects his stately form more than that of the sons of mankind— he will likewise startle many nations. At him kings will shut their mouth, because what had not been recounted to them they will actually see, and to what they had not heard they must turn their consideration.Who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed? And he will come up like a twig before one, and like a root out of waterless land. No stately form does he have, nor any splendor; and when we shall see him, there is not the appearance so that we should desire him. He was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for having acquaintance with sickness. And there was as if the concealing of one’s face from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no account. Truly our sicknesses were what he himself carried; and as for our pains, he bore them. But we ourselves accounted him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted. But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was upon him, and because of his wounds there has been a healing for us. Like sheep we have all of us wandered about; it was each one to his own way that we have turned; and Jehovah himself has caused the error of us all to meet up with that one. He was hard pressed, and he was letting himself be afflicted; yet he would not open his mouth. He was being brought just like a sheep to the slaughtering; and like a ewe that before her shearers has become mute, he also would not open his mouth. Because of restraint and of judgment he was taken away; and who will concern himself even with [the details of] his generation? For he was severed from the land of the living ones. Because of the transgression of my people he had the stroke. And he will make his burial place even with the wicked ones, and with the rich class in his death, despite the fact that he had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth. But Jehovah himself took delight in crushing him; he made him sick. If you will set his soul as a guilt offering, he will see his offspring, he will prolong [his] days, and in his hand what is the delight of Jehovah will succeed. Because of the trouble of his soul he will see, he will be satisfied. By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant, will bring a righteous standing to many people; and their errors he himself will bear. For that reason I shall deal him a portion among the many, and it will be with the mighty ones that he will apportion the spoil, due to the fact that he poured out his soul to the very death, and it was with the transgressors that he was counted in; and he himself carried the very sin of many people, and for the transgressors he proceeded to interpose.”
Who fulfills these words?
Quote but in the OT there is NO talk of a “second coming” for the Messsiah. There are precisely two kinds of prophecies in referring to the Messiah–those that speak of his triumphant second coming and those that speak of his humble coming (which preceeded the second).
Quote Messiah’s resurrection would also resolve the seeming contradiction between Daniel 7:13, which predicted that the Messiah would triumphantly come on the clouds of heaven, and Zechariah 9:9, which said that he would humbly arrive on an ass. The Talmud tried to explain this paradox by asserting: “If they are meritorious, he will come with the clouds of heaven; if not, lowly and riding upon an ass.” (Sanhedrin 98a)
But this would mean that the prophecy at either Daniel 7:13 or Zechariah 9:9 would remain unfulfilled.
This scripture, in Daniel certainly does not refer to his coming in kingdom power:
DANIEL 9:26
““And after the sixty-two weeks Mes·si′ah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.It speaks of something that had to take place first, his being “cut off” in death.
We see two pictures of Messiah in scripture: the suffering servant, who would be cut off, and the glorious triumphant messiah.
How can we explain this, if he is only to come once?
OK, so here are the scriptures that are in question. I thought I'd list them, so at the very least, we have somewhere to begin.
Born of the tribe of Judah (Gen. 49:10)
Matt. 1:2-16; Luke 3:23-33; Heb. 7:14From the family of David, son of Jesse (Ps. 132:11; Isa. 9:7; 11:1,10)
Matt. 1:1, 6-16; 9:27; 15:22; 20:30, 31; 21:9, 15; 22:42; Mark 10:47, 48; Luke 1:32; 2:4; 3:23-32; 18:38, 39; Acts 2:29-31;13:22, 23; Rom. 1:3; 15:8, 12Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)
Luke 2:4-11; John 7:42Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14)
Matt. 1:18-23; Luke 1:30-35Babes killed after his birth (Jeremiah 31:15)
Matt. 2:16-18Called out of Egypt (Hosea 11:1)
Matt. 2:15Way prepared before (Malachi 3:1; 4:5; Isaiah 40:3; 17:10-13)
Matt. 3:1-3; 11:10-14; Mark 1:2-4; Luke 1:17, 76; 3:3-6; 7:27; John 1:20-23; 3:25-28; Acts 13:24; 19:4Appeared as Messiah, presented himself at end of 69 “weeks” for baptism and was anointed on schedule in 29 C.E. (Daniel 9:25)
Luke 3:1,21,22Commissioned (Isaiah 61:1,2)
Luke 4:18-21Ministry caused people in Naphtali and Zebulun to see great light (Isaiah 9:1,2)
Matthew 4:13-16Spoke with illustrations (Ps 78:2)
Matt. 13:11-13, 31-35Carried our sicknesses (Isaiah 53:4)
Matt. 8:16, 17Zealous for Jehovah’s house (Ps 69:9)
Matt. 21:12, 13; Mark 11:15-18; Luke 19:45, 46; John 2:13-17As Jehovah’s servant, would not wrangle in streets (Isaiah 42:1-4)
Matt. 12:14-21Not believed in (Isa. 53:1)
John 12:37, 38; Rom. 10:11, 16Entry into Jerusalem on colt of an ass hailed as king and the one coming in Jehovah’s name. (Zech 9:9; Ps 118:26)
Matt. 21:1-9; Mark 11:7-11; Luke 19:28-38; John 12:12-15Rejected, but becomes chief cornerstone (Isaiah 28:16; 53:3; Ps 69:8; 118:22,23)
Matt. 21:42, 45, 46; Acts 3:14; 4:11; 1 Pet. 2:7Becomes stone of stumbling (Isaiah 8:14,15)
Luke 20:17, 18; Rom. 9:31-33; 1 Pet. 2:8One apostle unfaithful; betrays Jesus (Ps 41:9; 109:8)
Matt. 26:47-50; John 13:18, 26-30; 17:12; 18:2-5; Acts 1:16-20Betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zech 11:12)
Matt. 26:15; 27:3-10; Mark 14:10, 11Disciples scatter (Zech 13:7)
Matt. 26:31, 56; John 16:32Roman powers and leaders of Israel act together against anointed of Jehovah (Ps 2:1,2) Matt. 27:1,2; Mark 15:1, 15; Luke 23:10-12; Acts 4:25-28
Tried and condemned (Isaiah 53:8)
Matt. 26:57-68; 27:1, 2,11-26; John 18:12-14, 19-24, 28-40; 19:1-16Use of false witnesses (Ps 27:12)
Matt. 26:59-61; Mark 14:56-59Silent before accusers (Isaiah 53:7)
Matt. 27:12-14; Mark 14:61; 15:4, 5; Luke 23:9; John 19:9Hated without cause (Ps 69:4)
Luke 23:13-25; John 15:24, 25; 1 Pet. 2:22Struck, spit on (Isaiah 50:6; Micah 5:1)
Matt. 26:67; 27:26, 30; John 18:22; 19:3Impaled (Ps. 22:16, ftn.)
Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24, 25; Luke 23:33; John 19:18, 23; 20:25, 27Lots cast for garments (Ps. 22:18)
Matt. 27:35; John 19:23, 24Numbered with sinners (Isaiah 53:12)
Matt. 26:55, 56; 27:38; Luke 22:37Reviled while on stake (Ps 22:7,8)
Matt. 27:39-43; Mark 15:29-32Given vinegar and gall (Ps. 69:21)
Matt. 27:34, 48; Mark 15:23, 36Forsaken by God to enemies (Ps. 22:1)
Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:34No bones broken (Ps 34:20; Ex 12:46)
John 19:33, 36Pierced (Isa. 53:5; Zech 12:10)
Matt. 27:49; John 19:34, 37; Rev. 1:7Dies sacrificial death to carry away sins and open way to righteous standing with God (Isa. 53:5,8,11,12) Matt. 20:28; John 1:29; Rom. 3:24; 4:25; 1 Cor. 15:3; Heb. 9:12-15; 1 Pet. 2:24; 1 John 2:2
Buried with the rich (Isaiah 53:9)
Matt. 27:57-60; John 19:38-42In grave for parts of three days, then resurrected (Jonah 1:17; 2:10)
Matt. 12:39, 40; 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; 27:64; 28:1-7; Acts 10:40; 1 Cor. 15:3-8Raised before corruption (Ps 16:8-11 ftn)
Acts 2:25-31; 13:34-37Jehovah declares him His Son by spirit begettal and by resurrection (Ps 2:7)
Matt. 3:16, 17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21, 22; Acts 13:33; Rom. 1:4; Heb. 1:5; 5:5Ok, some basics:
MESSIAH (Christ)
From the Hebrew root verb ma·shach́, meaning “smear,” and so “anoint.” (Ex 29:2, 7) Messiah (ma·shíach) means “anointed” or “anointed one.”
The Greek equivalent is Khri·stoś, or Christ.—Mt 2:4, ftn.
In the Hebrew Scriptures the verbal adjective form ma·shíach is applied to many men. David was officially appointed to be king by being anointed with oil and so is spoken of as “anointed one” or, literally, “messiah.” (2Sa 19:21; 22:51; 23:1; Ps 18:50) Other kings, including Saul and Solomon, are termed “anointed one” or “the anointed of Jehovah.” (1Sa 2:10, 35; 12:3, 5; 24:6, 10; 2Sa 1:14, 16; 2Ch 6:42; La 4:20) The term is also applied to the high priest. (Le 4:3, 5, 16; 6:22) The patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are called Jehovah’s “anointed ones.” (1Ch 16:16, 22, ftn) Persian King Cyrus is termed “anointed one,” in that he was appointed by God for a certain assignment.—Isa 45:1
In the Christian Greek Scriptures the transliterated form Mes·sías occurs in the Greek text at John 1:41, with the explanation, “which means, when translated, Christ.” (See also Joh 4:25.) Sometimes the word Khri·stoś is used alone with reference to the one who is or who claims to be the Messiah, or the Anointed One. (Mt 2:4; 22:42; Mr 13:21) In most of its appearances, though, Khri·stoś is accompanied by the personal name Jesus, as in the expressions “Jesus Christ” or “Christ Jesus,” to designate him as the Messiah. At times the word is used alone but specifically referring to Jesus with the understanding that Jesus is The Christ, as in the statement, “Christ died for us.”—Ro 5:8; Joh 17:3; 1Co 1:1, 2; 16:24Messiah in the Hebrew Scriptures
At Daniel 9:25, 26 the word ma·shíach applies exclusively to the coming Messiah. However, many other texts of the Hebrew Scriptures also point to this coming One, even if not exclusively so. For instance, Psalm 2:2 evidently had first application at the time when Philistine kings tried to unseat anointed King David.
PSALM 2:2
“The kings of earth take their stand And high officials themselves have massed together as one Against Jehovah and against his ANOINTED ONE,”
But a second application, to the foretold Messiah, is established by Acts 4:25-27, where the text is applied to Jesus Christ. Also, many of the men called “anointed” in various ways prefigured, or pictured, Jesus Christ and the work he would do; among these were David, the high priest of Israel, and Moses (spoken of as “Christ” at Heb 11:23-26).Prophecies Not Using “Messiah”
Numerous other Hebrew Scripture texts that do not specifically mention “Messiah” were understood by the Jews as prophecies applying to that one.
Alfred Edersheim located 456 passages to which the “ancient Synagogue referred as Messianic,” and there were 558 references in the most ancient rabbinic writings supporting such applications. (The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, 1906, Vol. I, p. 163; Vol. II, pp. 710-737)
As an example, Genesis 49:10 prophesied that the ruling scepter would belong to the tribe of Judah and that Shiloh would come through that line. The Targum of Onkelos, the Jerusalem Targums, and the Midrash all recognize the expression “Shiloh” as applying to the Messiah.
The Hebrew Scriptures contain many prophecies that provide details about the Messiah’s background, time of appearance, activities, treatment by others, and place in God’s arrangement. The various indications about the Messiah thus combined to form one grand picture that would help true worshipers to identify him. This would provide a basis for faith in him as the true Leader sent by Jehovah. Though the Jews did not recognize ahead of time all the prophecies that related to the Anointed One, the evidence in the Gospels shows that they had sufficient knowledge by which to recognize the Messiah when he did appear.Understanding in the First Century C.E.
King and son of David. It was commonly accepted among the Jews that the Messiah would be a king of the line of David. When the astrologers asked about “the one born king of the Jews,” Herod the Great knew that they were asking about “the Christ.” (Mt 2:2-4) Jesus questioned the Pharisees as to whose descendant the Christ, or Messiah, would be. Though those religious leaders did not believe in Jesus, they knew that the Messiah would be David’s son.—Mt 22:41-45.
Born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2, 4 had indicated that out of Bethlehem would come one to be “ruler in Israel” who would “be great as far as the ends of the earth.” This was understood to refer to the Messiah. When Herod the Great asked the chief priests and scribes where the Messiah was to be born, they answered, “In Bethlehem of Judea,” and quoted Micah 5:2. (Mt 2:3-6) And even some of the common people knew this.—Joh 7:41, 42.
A prophet who would perform many signs. Through Moses, God had foretold the coming of a great prophet. (De 18:18) In Jesus’ day Jews were waiting for this one. (Joh 6:14) The way in which the apostle Peter used Moses’ words, at Acts 3:22, 23, indicates he knew they would be accepted as Messianic in nature even by religious opposers, and this gives evidence of widespread understanding of Deuteronomy 18:18. The Samaritan woman by the well also thought the Messiah would be a prophet. (Joh 4:19, 25, 29) People expected the Messiah to perform signs.—Joh 7:31.
Some variety in beliefs. It is evident that even though knowledge about the coming Messiah was common among the Jews, not all persons had the same knowledge or understanding about that one. For instance, though many knew that he would come from Bethlehem, some did not. (Mt 2:3-6; Joh 7:27) Some believed the Prophet to be separate from the Christ. (Joh 1:20, 21; 7:40, 41) Certain prophecies about the Messiah were not understood, even by Jesus’ disciples. This was particularly true about those prophecies dealing with the Messiah’s rejection, suffering, death, and resurrection. (Isa 53:3, 5, 12; Ps 16:10; Mt 16:21-23; 17:22, 23; Lu 24:21; Joh 12:34; 20:9) Yet once these things had taken place and the prophecies had been explained, his disciples and even ones who were not yet disciples began to appreciate the prophetic nature of these texts in the Hebrew Scriptures. (Lu 24:45, 46; Ac 2:5, 27, 28, 31, 36, 37; 8:30-35) Since the fact that the Messiah had to suffer and die was not recognized by most Jews, this point was stressed by early Christians when preaching to Jews.—Ac 3:18; 17:1-3; 26:21-23.Wrong Expectations.
Luke’s account indicates that many Jews were anxiously expecting the Messiah to appear at the particular time Jesus was on earth. Simeon and other Jews were “waiting for Israel’s consolation” and “Jerusalem’s deliverance” when the babe Jesus was brought to the temple. (Lu 2:25, 38) During the ministry of John the Baptizer, the people “were in expectation” about the Christ, or Messiah. (Lu 3:15) Many, though, expected the Messiah to meet their preconceived notions.The prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures showed the Messiah as coming in two different roles.
One was “humble, and riding upon an ass,” whereas the other was “with the clouds of the heavens” to annihilate opposers and have all rulerships serve him. (Zec 9:9; Da 7:13)The Jews failed to appreciate the fact that these prophecies related to two distinct appearances of the Messiah, these appearances occurring at widely separated times. Jewish sources agree with Luke 2:38 that the people at that time were waiting for Jerusalem’s deliverance. The Jewish Encyclopedia observes: “They yearned for the promised deliverer of the house of David, who would free them from the yoke of the hated foreign usurper, would put an end to the impious Roman rule, and would establish His own reign of peace.” (1976, V
ol. VIII, p. 508) They tried to make him an earthly king. (Joh 6:15) When he would not fulfill their expectations, they rejected him. This of course, fulfilled prophecy:
“Rejected, but becomes chief cornerstone (Isaiah 28:16; 53:3; Ps 69:8; 118:22,23) Matt. 21:42, 45, 46; Acts 3:14; 4:11; 1 Pet. 2:7”
Evidently the expectation that the Messiah would be an earthly king was shared by John the Baptizer and his disciples. John knew Jesus to be the Messiah and the Son of God, having seen him anointed with holy spirit and having heard God’s voice of approval. John did not lack faith. (Mt 11:11) So his question, “Are we to expect a different one?” may have meant, ‘Are we to expect yet another one who will fulfill all the hopes of the Jews?’ Christ in reply pointed to the works he was doing (which things had been foretold in the Hebrew Scriptures). He concluded: “And happy is he who has not stumbled over me.” This answer, while implying that faith and discernment would be needed, would satisfy and comfort John, assuring him that Jesus was the One who would fulfill God’s promises. (Mt 11:3; Lu 7:18-23) Also, prior to his ascension, Jesus’ disciples held the view that he would at that time deliver Israel from Gentile domination and set up the Kingdom (restore the reign of the Davidic line) on earth.—Lu 24:21; Ac 1:6.False Messiahs.
After Jesus’ death, the Jews followed many false Messiahs, as Jesus had foretold. (Mt 24:5) “From Josephus it appears that in the first century before the destruction of the Temple [in 70 C.E.] a number of Messiahs arose promising relief from the Roman yoke, and finding ready followers.” (The Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol. X, p. 251)
Then, in 132 C.E., Bar Kokhba (Bar Koziba), one of the most prominent of the pseudomessiahs, was hailed as Messiah-king. In crushing the revolt that he led, Roman soldiers killed thousands of Jews.
While such false Messiahs illustrate that many Jews were primarily interested in a political Messiah, they also show that they properly expected a PERSONAL Messiah, not just a Messianic era or Messianic nation as Tow and and many others who are still waiting consider today.
Some believe Bar Kokhba was a descendant of David, which would have aided his Messianic claim. However, since the genealogical records evidently were destroyed in 70 C.E., later claimants to the office of Messiah could not establish proof that they were of David’s family.
(The Messiah therefore had to appear before 70 C.E., as Jesus did, in order to prove his claim as the heir of David. This shows that persons still looking for the Messiah’s earthly appearance are in error.)
Among such later false claimants to messiahship were Moses of Crete, who asserted he would divide the sea between Crete and Palestine, and Serenus, who misled many Jews in Spain. The Jewish Encyclopedia lists 28 false Messiahs between the years 132 C.E. and 1744 C.E.—Vol. X, pp. 252-255.Jesus Was Accepted as the Messiah.
The historical evidence found in the Gospels demonstrates that Jesus was indeed the Messiah. Persons in the first century, who were in position to question the witnesses and examine the evidence, accepted the historical information as authentic. They were so sure of its accuracy that they were willing to endure persecution and die on behalf of their faith based on that assured information. The historical Gospel records show that various individuals openly acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ, or Messiah. (Mt 16:16; Joh 1:41, 45, 49; 11:27) Jesus did not say they were incorrect, and on occasion he admitted being the Christ. (Mt 16:17; Joh 4:25, 26) Sometimes Jesus would not say pointedly that he was the Messiah; at times he directed others not to publicize it. (Mr 8:29, 30; 9:9; Joh 10:24, 25) Since Jesus was present where people could hear him and see his works, he wanted them to believe on the solid basis of this evidence, so that their faith would be founded on their own eyewitness view of the fulfillment of the Hebrew Scriptures. (Joh 5:36; 10:24, 25; compare Joh 4:41, 42.) Now the Gospel record of what Jesus was and did has been provided along with the Hebrew Scriptures, which supplied abundant information about what he would do, so that individuals may know and believe that Jesus is indeed the Messiah.—Joh 20:31David have you started downloading all your google searches on this topic now that Towshab has said farewell?
Prophecy is in the eye of the beholder. Pick one from above that is as good as the 'prophecies' made every day by weather forecasters or astronomer.
Stuart
Stu,
I believe that David is doing this, in part, to help me and out of my request. I thought Tow had a lot of good points that were not really directly oppposed and so I've asked a few brother's to give it their best shot! We can learn from everyone's input. David is an excellent researcher and so if there is an opposing answer…..he will likely find it.
Quote David have you started downloading all your google searches on this topic now that Towshab has said farewell? -stue
If you'll do half a minute of research, you'll see that I had conversations with Tow about this for quite some time. But he was on here about 10 times as much as me and just plowed over what was said with 15 different topics all at the same time. I can't discuss things that way. I actually do wish he was still here to disucss Isaiah 53 with me. I really do want to discuss that with someone who is objective. I've even asked Is 1:18 to argue with me on this (to play Tow's part).
I haven't actually started to consider this topic yet. And again, only one of the above 6 posts of mine had any “google” in it.Fine, stu, you can play Tow's role. Fine by me. Again, I'm kind of busy in my life right now, so I can't really get to this until after the weekend. That was always the thing with Tow. He was only busy with this site. He never watched TV as he said and I don't think he has any life outside of debating his beliefs.
david
Agreed, my point was that he had no life, or so it seemed, other than this.
My point was that I had to be other places and could not or did not have the time or means to even read everything he wrote.Quote (david @ Jan. 25 2008,15:39) Quote David have you started downloading all your google searches on this topic now that Towshab has said farewell? -stue
If you'll do half a minute of research, you'll see that I had conversations with Tow about this for quite some time. But he was on here about 10 times as much as me and just plowed over what was said with 15 different topics all at the same time. I can't discuss things that way. I actually do wish he was still here to disucss Isaiah 53 with me. I really do want to discuss that with someone who is objective. I've even asked Is 1:18 to argue with me on this (to play Tow's part).
I haven't actually started to consider this topic yet. And again, only one of the above 6 posts of mine had any “google” in it.Fine, stu, you can play Tow's role. Fine by me. Again, I'm kind of busy in my life right now, so I can't really get to this until after the weekend. That was always the thing with Tow. He was only busy with this site. He never watched TV as he said and I don't think he has any life outside of debating his beliefs.
david
For one who regularly posts screeds of text at a time, with material that has often covered a wide range of topic, isn't this a little rich? Perhaps it's just enthusiasm.Stuart
Quote Hi Isaiah, I'm pretty tired tonight, I've been listening to a lot of audio from the site you recommended OR thought that Tow got his material from. I've also been looking at the scriptures you shared and your comments. I have a few questions for you.
Quote
…..that the Messiah comes more than once, and in two different fashions. The first time as the suffering servant sent to die for the sins of men, and again as Avenger, Judge and King.I know this is a popular teaching, but where are the verses in the OT that teach this?
Quote
Indeed this will happen. At His second coming – When Yeshua will reign as King, ruling from Mt Zion.Jeremiah 23:5-8
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS…they shall dwell in their own land.Using the OT it is hard to say if this is referring to a second coming of THE Messiah. It could be speaking of the first appearance of the annointed King, could it not? It sounds like we are reading Jesus into this passage.
Quote
When Joseph adopted Jesus as his legal son, Jesus became both David's direct descendent through David's son Nathan (Mary's side), and David's legal royal heir through Solomon (Joseph's side).But in the Torah it is said that the mother determines if the child is Jewish or not, but the Father determines it's clan or standing. According to the above, Jesus would have to draw his pedigree from Joseph. If this is so it doesn't appear to help Jesus much because Joseph's lineage is traced back to that King that had a curse put on him! What do you think of that?
Quote
What Towshab has done here is bring up a bunch of prophecies that have an end times application and said “hey, these are messianic prophecies and Jesus didn’t fulfill any of them!”, but to charge Yeshua with failing to fulfill prophecies which are manifestly eschatological in nature demonstrates an ignorance of scriptures.So you agree that Jesus didn't fulfill these messianic prophesies the first time around?
Quote
but to charge Yeshua with failing to fulfill prophecies which are manifestly eschatological in nature demonstrates an ignorance of scriptures.But this is exactly the problem……nowhere in the OT is the annointed future King to come to the earth once and not fulfill anything,and then come again and fulfill everything.
Quote
In practically every OT reference Towshab cited there were details given that have no link to any period of human history to date, there has never been a sustained period of peace on Earth where YHWH will reign as King from Mt Zion…..but there will be.Exactly! When Jesus came none of this happened.
When the Messiah comes it's supposed to happen.
Nowhere does it say in the OT that the Messiah will do it the second time around.You may see my confusion now?
Thanks,
MandyMandy, in what manner will this be fulfilled?
ISAIAH 52:13-53:12
“Look! My servant will act with insight. He will be in high station and will certainly be elevated and exalted very much. To the extent that many have stared at him in amazement—so much was the disfigurement as respects his appearance more than that of any other man and as respects his stately form more than that of the sons of mankind— he will likewise startle many nations. At him kings will shut their mouth, because what had not been recounted to them they will actually see, and to what they had not heard they must turn their consideration.Who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed? And he will come up like a twig before one, and like a root out of waterless land. No stately form does he have, nor any splendor; and when we shall see him, there is not the appearance so that we should desire him. He was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for having acquaintance with sickness. And there was as if the concealing of one’s face from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no account. Truly our sicknesses were what he himself carried; and as for our pains, he bore them. But we ourselves accounted him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted. But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was upon him, and because of his wounds there has been a healing for us. Like sheep we have all of us wandered about; it was each one to his own way that we have turned; and Jehovah himself has caused the error of us all to meet up with that one. He was hard pressed, and he was letting himself be afflicted; yet he would not open his mouth. He was being brought just like a sheep to the slaughtering; and like a ewe that before her shearers has become mute, he also would not open his mouth. Because of restraint and of judgment he was taken away; and who will concern himself even with [the details of] his generation? For he was severed from the land of the living ones. Because of the transgression of my people he had the stroke. And he will make his burial place even with the wicked ones, and with the rich class in his death, despite the fact that he had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth. But Jehovah himself took delight in crushing him; he made him sick. If you will set his soul as a guilt offering, he will see his offspring, he will prolong [his] days, and in his hand what is the delight of Jehovah will succeed. Because of the trouble of his soul he will see, he will be satisfied. By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant, will bring a righteous standing to many people; and their errors he himself will bear. For that reason I shall deal him a portion among the many, and it will be with the mighty ones that he will apportion the spoil, due to the fact that he poured out his soul to the very death, and it was with the transgressors that he was counted in; and he himself carried the very sin of many people, and for the transgressors he proceeded to interpose.”
Or, if you prefer, the JP, as Tow always used:
“Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, . . . for he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground . . . He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: He was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried . . . He was crushed because of our iniquities: The chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed. All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way . . . He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, . . . he was cut off out of the land of the living. . . . And they made his grave with the wicked.”—Jerusalem Press.Mandy, looking at the JP version, what do you make of this someone who “was despised” and “forsaken” and “acquainted with disease”?
What does it mean to you that “our diseases he did bear?” Or that “our pains he carried”? Or that “he was crushed because of our iniquities.”?
Which person in the past or future is there that has or will “as a lamb” be “led to the slaughter”? or that even though righteous, would make “his grave with the wicked”?
If this happened in the past, then who is it?
If it will happen in the future, then who is this prophecy referring to, if no
t the Messiah, and why would this picture be painted of the Messiah when we also have a picture painted of him as a judge and king?ZECHARIAH 9:9
““Be very joyful, O daughter of Zion. Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem. Look! Your king himself comes to you. He is righteous, yes, saved; humble, and riding upon an ass, even upon a full-grown animal the son of a she-ass.”One picture is of a humble king, riding on an ass.
Yet, we have the other messianic prophecies that show him, more so on a horse of warfare, crowned, and with an army of angels.Mandy, question: How do you understand these differences?
Looking at the “suffering servant” of Isaiah 53:
Over the centuries a number of respected Jewish authorities have applied the prophecy of Isaiah 52:13–53:12 to the Messiah:The Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel (1st century C.E.). In its rendering of Isaiah 52:13, the Targum says: “Behold, my servant, the Anointed One (or, the Messiah) shall prosper.”
The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 98b) (c. 3rd century C.E.): “The Messiah—what is his name? . . . The Rabbis say, The leprous one [; those] of the house of Rabbi [say, The sick one], as it is said, ‘Surely he hath borne our sicknesses.’”—Compare Isaiah 53:4.24
Moses Maimonides (Rambam) (12th century): “What is to be the manner of Messiah’s advent, and where will be the place of his first appearance? . . . In the words of Isaiah [52:15], when describing the manner in which the kings will hearken to him, At him kings will shut their mouth.”
Moses ibn Crispin Cohen (14th century): “I am pleased to interpret [Isaiah 53], in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis, of the King Messiah, and will be careful, so far as I am able, to adhere to the literal sense: thus, possibly, I shall be free from the forced and farfetched interpretations of which others [Jewish commentators] have been guilty.”
So while some may assert that the suffering servant is “Israel” the nation, the Encyclopaedia Judaica draws this contrast: “The real Israel is sinful and the Servant [of Isaiah 53], free of sin.” (Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1971, Volume 9, page 65.)
Basically, Mandy, I'm wondering what you think of Isaiah 53.
david
Quote Jeremiah 23:5-8
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS…they shall dwell in their own land.Using the OT it is hard to say if this is referring to a second coming of THE Messiah. It could be speaking of the first appearance of the annointed King, could it not? It sounds like we are reading Jesus into this passage.
Some scriptures that refer to the twig, the root of Jesse, the sprout of David:
PSALM 132:11
“Jehovah has sworn to David, Truly he will not draw back from it: “Of the fruitage of your belly I shall set on your throne.”
ISAIAH 9:7
“To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite.”
ISAIAH 11:1
“And there must go forth a twig out of the stump of Jeśse; and out of his roots a sprout will be fruitful.”
ISAIAH 11:10
“And it must occur in that day that there will be the root of Jeśse that will be standing up as a signal for the peoples. To him even the nations will turn inquiringly, and his resting-place must become glorious.”
ISAIAH 53:2
“And he will come up like a twig before one, and like a root out of waterless land. No stately form does he have, nor any splendor; and when we shall see him, there is not the appearance so that we should desire him.”
JEREMIAH 23:5-6
““Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will raise up to David a righteous sprout. And a king will certainly reign and act with discretion and execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel itself will reside in security. And this is his name with which he will be called, Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.””
JEREMIAH 33:15
“In those days and at that time I shall make sprout for David a righteous sprout, and he will certainly execute justice and righteousness in the land.”
ZECHARIAH 3:8
““‘Hear, please, O Joshua the high priest, you and your companions who are sitting before you, for they are men [serving] as portents; for here I am bringing in my servant Sprout!”MATTHEW 1:1
“The book of the history of Jesus Christ, son of David, son of Abraham:”
MATTHEW 1:6-16
“Jeśse became father to David the king. David became father to Soĺo·mon by the wife of U·ríah; Soĺo·mon became father to Re·ho·bóam; Re·ho·bóam became father to A·bíjah; A·bíjah became father to Ása; Ása became father to Je·hosh́a·phat; Je·hosh́a·phat became father to Je·hóram; Je·hóram became father to Uz·zíah; Uz·zíah became father to Jótham; Jótham became father to Áhaz; Áhaz became father to Hez·e·kíah; Hez·e·kíah became father to Ma·naśseh; Ma·naśseh became father to Ámon; Ámon became father to Jo·síah; Jo·síah became father to Jec·o·níah and to his brothers at the time of the deportation to Babylon. After the deportation to Babylon Jec·o·níah became father to She·aĺti·el; She·aĺti·el became father to Ze·rub́ba·bel; Ze·rub́ba·bel became father to A·bíud; A·bíud became father to E·lía·kim; E·lía·kim became father to Ázor; Ázor became father to Zádok; Zádok became father to Áchim; Áchim became father to E·líud; E·líud became father to El·e·ázar; El·e·ázar became father to Mat́than; Mat́than became father to Jacob; Jacob became father to Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.”
MATTHEW 9:27
“As Jesus was passing along from there, two blind men followed him, crying out and saying: “Have mercy on us, Son of David.””
ACTS 13:22-23
“And after removing him, he raised up for them David as king, respecting whom he bore witness and said, ‘I have found David the son of Jeśse, a man agreeable to my heart, who will do all the things I desire.’ From the offspring of this [man] according to his promise God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus,”ROMANS 1:3
“concerning his Son, who sprang from the seed of David according to the flesh,”
ROMANS 15:8,12
“For I say that Christ actually became a minister of those who are circumcised in behalf of God’s truthfulness, so as to verify the promises He made to their forefathers,. . . .And again Isaiah says: “There will be the root of Jeśse and there will be one arising to rule nations; on him nations will rest their hope.””
MATTHEW 2:23 (See John 1:45)
“…. and dwelt in a city named Naźa·reth, that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through the prophets: “He will be called a Naz·a·rené.””
(Naz·a·rené) [probably from Heb. nétser, “sprout”]. Nazareth is not mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures. It is evident that Matthew was referring to what Isaiah (11:1) had said concerning Messiah: “There must go forth a twig out of the stump of Jesse; and out of his roots a sprout [we·nétser] will be fruitful.” Another Hebrew word, tsémach, also means sprout and was used by other prophets when referring to the Messiah. Matthew used the plural, saying that “prophets” had mentioned this coming “Sprout.” For example, Jeremiah wrote about the “righteous sprout” as an offshoot of David. (Jer 23:5; 33:15) Zechariah describes a king-priest “whose name is Sprout,” a prophecy that could apply only to Jesus the Nazarene, the great spiritual Temple-builder.—Zec 3:8; 6:12, 13.One thing that was universally recognized in the first century at least, was that the Messiah (and yes, the Jews back then did believe a personal Messiah was coming) would be of the offspring of Jesse, the root of David, the sprout of David. Hence, all the trouble of going through the geneology of Jesus. Since so many hated Jesus, wanting him dead, it would have been easy enough to discredit him back then if he wasn't from that line.
Now, of course, it's impossible, what with the records being destroyed in 70 C.E.
Of course, now, it's also impossible for those prophecies to have any meaning for a future messiah, since the records are gone. It doesn't seem very likely to me that God would inspire so many to write about where the messiah would come from, only to allow those prophecies to lose their meaning before they ever were able to come to light.
Does this seem likely to you?Quote (david @ Jan. 29 2008,17:51) Basically, Mandy, I'm wondering what you think of Isaiah 53.
Funny you should ask because I'm looking at it right now. I'll let you know what my thoughts are in a few days. Thanks for the post, David. I'll take another look at it tomorrow. We've been really busy here with our house remodel, but I've been studying when I get the chance. It may take me a few days to respond.Thanks again,
MandySimilarly, he was of the tribe of Judah.
GENESIS 49:10
“The scepter will not turn aside from Judah, neither the commander’s staff from between his feet, until Shíloh comes; and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong.”
(“Shiloh.” Or, “the one whose it is.” Heb., Shi·loh́, meaning “He Whose It Is,” or, “He to Whom It Belongs”; LXX, “the things stored up for him”; Vg, “he who is to be sent.”)
MATTHEW 1:2-16
“Abraham became father to Isaac; Isaac became father to Jacob; Jacob became father to Judah and his brothers; Judah became father to Pérez and to Zérah by Támar; Pérez became father to Heźron; Heźron became father to Ram; Ram became father to Am·mińa·dab; Am·mińa·dab became father to Nah́shon; Nah́shon became father to Saĺmon; Saĺmon became father to Bóaz by Ráhab; Bóaz became father to Óbed by Ruth; Óbed became father to Jeśse; Jeśse became father to David the king. David became father to Soĺo·mon by the wife of U·ríah; Soĺo·mon became father to Re·ho·bóam; Re·ho·bóam became father to A·bíjah; A·bíjah became father to Ása; Ása became father to Je·hosh́a·phat; Je·hosh́a·phat became father to Je·hóram; Je·hóram became father to Uz·zíah; Uz·zíah became father to Jótham; Jótham became father to Áhaz; Áhaz became father to Hez·e·kíah; Hez·e·kíah became father to Ma·naśseh; Ma·naśseh became father to Ámon; Ámon became father to Jo·síah; Jo·síah became father to Jec·o·níah and to his brothers at the time of the deportation to Babylon. After the deportation to Babylon Jec·o·níah became father to She·aĺti·el; She·aĺti·el became father to Ze·rub́ba·bel; Ze·rub́ba·bel became father to A·bíud; A·bíud became father to E·lía·kim; E·lía·kim became father to Ázor; Ázor became father to Zádok; Zádok became father to Áchim; Áchim became father to E·líud; E·líud became father to El·e·ázar; El·e·ázar became father to Mat́than; Mat́than became father to Jacob; Jacob became father to Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.”
LUKE 3:23-33
“Furthermore, Jesus himself, when he commenced [his work], was about thirty years old, being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph, [son] of Héli, [son] of Mat́that, [son] of Lévi, [son] of Meĺchi, [son] of Jańna·i, [son] of Joseph, [son] of Mat·ta·thías, [son] of Ámos, [son] of Náhum, [son] of Eśli, [son] of Naǵga·i, [son] of Máath, [son] of Mat·ta·thías, [son] of Seḿe·in, [son] of Jósech, [son] of Jóda, [son] of Jo·ańan, [son] of Rhésa, [son] of Ze·rub́ba·bel, [son] of She·aĺti·el, [son] of Néri, [son] of Meĺchi, [son] of Ad́di, [son] of Cósam, [son] of El·mádam, [son] of Er, [son] of Jesus, [son] of E·li·ézer, [son] of Jórim, [son] of Mat́that, [son] of Lévi, [son] of Syḿe·on, [son] of Judas, [son] of Joseph, [son] of Jónam, [son] of E·lía·kim, [son] of Méle·a, [son] of Meńna, [son] of Mat́ta·tha, [son] of Nathan, [son] of David, [son] of Jeśse, [son] of Óbed, [son] of Bóaz, [son] of Saĺmon, [son] of Nah́shon, [son] of Am·mińa·dab, [son] of Aŕni, [son] of Heźron, [son] of Pérez, [son] of Judah,”
HEBREWS 7:14
“For it is quite plain that our Lord has sprung up out of Judah, a tribe about which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.”Beginning with the rule of the Judean David, power to command (the commander’s staff) and regal sovereignty (the scepter) were the possessions of the tribe of Judah. This was to continue until the coming of Shiloh, indicating that the royal line of Judah would terminate in Shiloh as the permanent heir. Similarly, before the overthrow of the kingdom of Judah, Jehovah indicated to the last Judean king, Zedekiah, that rulership would be given to one having the legal right. (Eze 21:26, 27) This would evidently be Shiloh, as the name “Shiloh” is understood to signify “He Whose It Is; He to Whom It Belongs.”
Concerning the ancient Jewish view of Genesis 49:10, a Commentary edited by F. C. Cook (p. 233) notes:
“All Jewish antiquity referred the prophecy to Messiah. Thus the Targum of Onkelos has ‘until the Messiah come, whose is the kingdom;’ the Jerusalem Targum, ‘until the time that the king Messiah shall come, whose is the kingdom.’ . . . So the Babylonian Talmud (‘Sanhedrim,’ cap. II. fol. 982), ‘What is Messiah’s name? His name is Shiloh, for it is written, Until Shiloh come.’”Yes, Shiloh, the Messiah, would come through the line of Judah. Again, if Jesus was not of that line, if the geneology was wrong, it would have been easy enough for the religious leaders to check the records.
Today, it is not so easy.
So, we have the line of descent he would come from. How about where he would come from?
MICAH 5:2
““And you, O Beth́le·hem Eph́ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.”LUKE 2:4-11
“Of course, Joseph also went up from Gaĺi·lee, out of the city of Naźa·reth, into Ju·déa, to David’s city, which is called Beth́le·hem, because of his being a member of the house and family of David, to get registered with Mary, . . . .the angel said to them: “Have no fear, for, look! I am declaring to YOU good news of a great joy that all the people will have, because there was born to YOU today a Savior, who is Christ [the] Lord, in David’s city.” (David the son of “Jesse the Bethlehemite” was born in Bethlehem of Judah, tended his father’s sheep in that area, and was later anointed there by Samuel to be Israel’s future king. (1Sa 16:1,4,13,18; 17:12,15,58; 20:6)
JOHN 7:42
“Has not the Scripture said that the Christ is coming from the offspring of David, and from Beth́le·hem the village where David used to be?””
(The earlier name of Bethlehem evidently was Ephrath (or, Ephrathah). Jacob buried Rachel “on the way to Ephrath, that is to say, Bethlehem.”–Ge 35:19; 48:7. Since there was another Bethlehem in the territory of Zebulun (Jos 19:10, 15), the town in Judah was usually distinguished by reference to Ephrath, or by calling it “Bethlehem in Judah.”—Jg 17:7-9; 19:1,2,18. Such detailed identification underscores the accuracy of God’s prophetic promises regarding the Messiah.)I know that Tow has said this isn't referring to the town of Bethelehem, but rather a person or clan.
Yet, we know that in Jesus time, at least some believed this was referring to “the one who is to become ruler of Israel,” the Messiah, otherwise, why would the writer have thought this would ever fool anyone?Please see:
http://www.studytoanswer.net/judaism/micah5n2.html
“Micah 5:2 is a prophecy which both predicts the coming of the Messiah, and helps to pinpoint this individual. As such, it has become the target of much revisionism and gainsaying by many who wish to deny the Messianism of Jesus Christ.”So, we have the line he would arrive in, the tribe, the exact place, not just “Bethlehem” but specifically which Bethlehem, the one that was called Ephrath or Ephrathah.
Now, the time of his arrival?
When would messiah appear on the scene?
DANIEL 9:24-27
““There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·si′ah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times. “And after the sixty-two weeks Mes·si′ah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. “And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate.””
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
