- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 16 2011,08:40) Hi all T8 has recently brought up one of those “Jesus isn’t God fallacies” which goes like this…
Jesus can’t be God because he is not the “source” but the “agent” of God.
However the scriptures clearly debunk this fallacious argument.
It is very telling of how they view Jesus. To them Jesus is like every other agent of God in the sense that God “uses” him. It seems they still see the servant Jesus in the flesh, yet once again that is not the whole story.
Jesus is not just an agent of the Father like Moses and the rest for the scriptures teach us that ”Jesus is also the source of all things to us.”
The scriptures tell us “Jesus has all authority and Power” (Math 28:18) and that “Jesus upholds all things by the word of his power” (Heb 1:3) and that “by him (Jesus) all things consist”, (Col 1:17) and that “all things come to us from Jesus hands” (John 3:5 & John 16:15).
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of eternal life” (John 1:3-5, John 3:15, John 6:63, John 6:54, John 10:28, John 14:6, John 17:2, 1 John 1:1-3, Acts 3:14, Rom 8:2, Rom 8:10, 1 Cor 8:6, 2 Tim 1:10).
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our faith” (Heb 12:2, 1 Cor 1:24, 1 Cor 1:30,)
The scriptures tell us that Jesus is the “source of our wisdom, knowledge and truth” (John 14:6, Col 2:3, 2 Peter 3:18,
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our riches” (2 Cor 8:9, Heb 11:26)
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our power” (Rom 1:16, 1 Cor 1:18, 1 Cor 1:24, 1 Cor 5:4, Rev 2:26)
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our righteousness” (Rom 5:17, Rom 8:10, 1 Cor 1:30, 10:4, 2 Cor 5:21, 1 Peter 2:24, 2 Peter 1:1)
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our salvation” (Rom 1:16, Phil 1:19, 1 Thess 5:9, 2 Tim 2:10, 2 Tim 3:15, Heb 9:28, Tit 2:13, 14, Phil 3:21)
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of strength” (Matt 11:27-30, John 15:5, Eph 6:10, 1 Tim 1:12, 2 Tim 2:1, Phil 4:13, 2 Tim 4:17)
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our image” (Gen 1:26, 27, Rom 8:29, Phil 3:21, 2 Cor 3:18, 2 Cor 4:4)
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source from which we receive the Spirit of God” (Matt 3:11, John 1:33, John 3:34, John 4:13, 14, John 7:37-39, John 15:26, John 20:22, Rom 8:9, 10, 2 Cor 3:17, Gal 3:14, Gal 4:6, 1 Peter 1:11, Phil 1:19 Rev 22:1)
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our victory” (Rom 5:17-21, 1 Cor 15:57, 1 John 4:4, 1 John 5:5, Rev 2:7, Rev 12:11,
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our hope, grace, mercy, and peace” (John 6:33, Rom 1:7, Rom 16:20, 1 Cor 1:3, 2 Cor 1:2, Col 1:27, Gal 1:3, Eph 1:2, Phil 1:2, Col 1:2, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Thess 1:2, 1 Tim 1:2, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, Plm 1:3, 2 John 1:3, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 3:13,)
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our healing” (Isa 53:5, Matt 4:23, Matt 8:7, Matt 9:22, Matt 15:28, Mark 6:56, Matt 9:35, Matt 12:15, Matt 14:14, Matt 14:36,Matt 15:30, Luke 7:3, Luke 9:42, Luke 13:14, Luke 22:51, John 5:6-13, John 7:23, Acts 3:14-16, Acts 10:38, 1 Peter 2:24,)
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our Gospel and preaching” (Mark 1:1, Acts 5:42, Acts 17:3, Rom 1:16, Rom 15:19, Rom 15:29, 1 Cor 9:12, 1 Cor 9:18, 2 Cor 2:12, 2 Cor 3:3, 2 Cor 4:4, 5, 2 Cor 9:13, 2 Cor 10:14, Gal 1:7, Phil 1:27, Col 1:27, 28, 1 Thess 3:2, 2 Thess 1:8,
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source for our forgiveness of sins against God” (Matt 9:6, Mark 2:5-10, Rom 1:16, 1 John 1:7,)
So in other words when you they “Jesus is not their source” then they are denying the 150+ scriptures above.
They believe and are teaching that everything does not come “from” Jesus but from the Father “through” Jesus who they say is not the source but he is an agent like Moses, though Moses had no power to do anything! It seems that to them Jesus is simply like a puppet or a funnel that the Father works through.
In essence their teaching does not lead men to Jesus but to the Father even though no one can have the Father without Jesus or the Holy Spirit.
The scriptures tell us that at this time Jesus is not a servant whom the Father uses but in fact he has not yet subjected the Kingdom or himself to the Father. (1 Cor 15:28)
If God is the “source” of all things and Jesus is the “source of all things”, as the scriptures clearly teach, then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Jesus is God with a big “G” and not a little “god” with a little “g”.
That is why Jesus said “no man can pluck them out of my hand” and “I and the Father are One!” John 10:27-29
WJ
Again, this is a reference thread for debunked topics, subjects or proof text made by the anti-Jesus is God crowd. If you disagree then create another thread to address your reasons for disagreeing!
WJ points out that Jesus is the source of certain things and thus God.What he fails to realise is that God is the source of Christ and Christ is the source of creation because God made all things THROUGH him.
I would have thought that scripture made that clear. That the head of Christ is God and the head of the man is Christ.
So this is a weakness of the Trinity doctrine I would like to point out. They take simple language that is true from our perspective and apply it to a perspective that it was never intended.
e.g, Jesus sits on a throne and rules and judges, right? Well yes from the perspective of creation. But from God's perspective, it is obvious that Jesus doesn't rule and reign over God.
Once again, desperate Trinitarians resort to cherry picking things and taking them out of context in order to suppor the lie that God is a triune God.
To add to the above.
Imagine the Amazon River and then the biggest tributary and then a stream that flows into the tributary. Well from the smaller tributary's perspective, the larger tributary is the source. But the ultimate source is the Amazon, but that doesn't negate that the bigger tributary is the source of the smaller one.
Jesus said, “I am the vine and you are the branches”. So we know that the vine is the source of the branches. But guess what, he said that God was the gardener. So now we know that the gardener or vine dresser is greater than the vine. But it seems that Trinitarians people cannot comprehend such things because it doesn't fit their Trinity template.
So once again, the “source” argument that WJ and probably other Trinitarians make is not based on all the facts because it negates perspective. This is indeed a weak argument and anyone of average intelligence who is not brainwashed could easily see that.
Another super weak argument from Trinitarians that they use to support their Trinity doctrine is their lack of understanding of how 'theos' is used in Greek to describe not just the Almighty, but others.
They also display a double standard.
They say that Jesus is God himself because of the word el or theos appears to be applied to him. Let's imagine that this is indeed applied to him, although we could argue many of their proof verses as actually referring to the Father. But like I said, lets turn a blind eye for 10 seconds and imagine that Jesus is called theos in some of these verses. The big problem they have is that Jesus said when being accused of saying that he was God, that “ye are gods”.
So the double standard they have is that Jesus is God, but these men are not, even though they are too called theos and elohim. IN addition, it is also written “Worship Elohim, all you elohims”. So they should also teach that angels are God.
But they cherry pick Jesus to be God and the others not, even though they are all called theos or elohim in a legit way.
Going back to the Psalm that Jesus quoted, “you are elohim, you are all sons of the most high God”. He then finished with saying, “why accuse me of blasphemy because I say that I am God's son. See that, “You are all sons of the Most High God”, and it is that statement that he is quoting for himself by claiming that he is the son of God and why think that is blasphemy when ye are called gods and I am the son of God.
Another super weak argument is their lack of understanding with the definite article and what that means in Greek.
They have no understanding that theos, adam, diábolos, can all be used to describe ones nature, and Theos, Adam, Devil, are used to identify a specific person who happens to be the originator of that nature.
The only difference in a grammatical sense is the definite article, but for such a small word, it changes the meaning in a big way.
Perhaps not the best example, but it is a bit like the English words God and godly. A couple of extra letters, and you go from the God to a meaning that is expressing nature or quality of that God.
THE is huge and John 1:1c has no THE when it says, and the Word was God. Even the Logos has THE. They read it as if the Word was THE God. When THE is definitely not there.
It is by this ignorance that they can build their doctrine that Jesus is THE God. But even then, when it comes to others who are called theos, they conveniently ignore that they are THE God according to their own rules, and turn them all into false gods including the ones who were called theos and sons of the Most High God and the elohims who are told to worship Elohim.
There is little reason to their doctrine, it is more to do with bias.
Most of the verses where Jesus is suppose to be God is actually their lack of understanding that the verse is actually talking about God and Jesus. They then take the God part and attach it to the Jesus part of the verse. They do this with quite a number of their proof verses.
I won't quote them all for reasons of time. But I am happy to add each one into its own post in this topic later on.
He considered the Father as the supreme protector and preserver of even his own disciples. “I pray that thou shouldst keep them from the evil.” (John xvii. 15.)
Quote (t8 @ June 17 2011,03:30) Most of the verses where Jesus is suppose to be God is actually their lack of understanding that the verse is actually talking about God and Jesus. They then take the God part and attach it to the Jesus part of the verse. They do this with quite a number of their proof verses. I won't quote them all for reasons of time. But I am happy to add each one into its own post in this topic later on.
T8well said
Pierre
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
