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Quote (david @ Aug. 24 2009,18:27) Quote Jesus is God the Son Even if he was “God the son” why use that expression? The Bible certainly does not ever speak of “God the son.”
Jesus is repeatedly called the “Son OF God” and hence, “of” God, therefore logically not the God that he is “of.”
Repeatedly the inspired Bible writers refer to him this way. It would be wise to follow their beliefs.Also, when looking at the Bible as a whole, I've counted literally a thousand times where Jehovah (YHWH) is referred to directly as “God.” LITERALLY a thousand.
Expressions we find in the Bible:
Jehovah God–50 times
the [true] God Jehovah–4 times
Jehovah their God–39 times
Jehovah the [true] God–8 times.
Jehovah is in truth God–1 time
Jehovah is God–1 time
Jehovah is my God–1 time
Jehovah is our God–1 time
Jehovah your God–455 times
Jehovah our God–105 times
Jehovah my God–40 times
Jehovah his God–29 times
Jehovah is a God–7 times
Jehovah the God of–204 times
Jehovah a God–1 timeSo that's about a thousand times. It's pretty clear the Jehovah is God. Many times Jesus is called the Son “of” God, meaning the Son of “the” God, Jehovah. And we all understand this. Where it gets confusing is that roughly 3-9 times (3 times for sure and 6 very unclear times) Jesus is referred to as “a god” or “God.”
When we understand that God means “powerful one” essentially, then we can understand how Israelite human judges and angels and Satan were all called gods. (They were all powerful in relation to others.)And of course, Jesus has been “given” “all authority and power” in heaven and earth, so the word “God” definitely fits.
You're not going to like this…but “Jehovah” isn't a correct Hebrew term. The tetragrammaton is YHWH.Quote (david @ Aug. 24 2009,18:38) LUKE 1:32
“This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High.” (How did the angel announcing his birth refer to him? Compare Ps 83:18, where it says that Jehovah alone is the Most High.)LUKE 1:34
“For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.”MATTHEW 3:17
“Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”” (Who does Jehovah God’s testimony tell us Jesus is?)JOHN 1:34
“And I have seen [it], and I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.””
JOHN 1:49
“Nathańael answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.”” (How did Nathanael identify Jesus?)MATTHEW 16:16
“In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.””
(Jesus himself asked who they thought he was. With this response of Peter, Jesus pronounced him happy, because his Father had revealed this to him.)JOHN 11:27
“She [Martha] said to him: “Yes, Lord; I have believed that you are the Christ the Son of God.”” (What did Martha believe about Jesus?)JOHN 20:31
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.” (Why did John write what he did? What did he want us to believe?)JOHN 1:34
“I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.” (Did John bear witness that Jesus was God Almighty, or God’s Son?)1 JOHN 4:15
“Whoever makes the confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God . . .” (According to John, if we are to remain in union with God, what must confess?)1 JOHN 5:5
“Who is the one that conquers the world but he who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?” (According to John, what must we have faith in–that Jesus is God, or the “Son of” God?)
(It seems that John bore witness that Jesus was the “Son of” God, that he wrote what he did so that we would believe that Jesus was the “Son of” God, telling us to have faith that Jesus is the “Son of” God, and to confess that Jesus is the “Son of” God.)ACTS 9:20
“he [Peter] began to preach Jesus, that this One is the Son of God.” (What did the apostle Peter preach about Jesus?)MARK 1:24
“What have we to do with you, Jesus you Nazarené? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.” (The demons certainly knew “exactly” who Jesus was: the Holy One “of” God, and hence, not God Almighty himself.)
MATTHEW 8:29
“What have we to do with you, Son of God?”
MARK 3:11
“Even the unclean spirits, whenever they would behold him, would prostrate themselves before him and cry out, saying: “You are the Son of God.”“
LUKE 4:41
“Demons also would come out of many, crying out and saying: “You are the Son of God.”JOHN 5:18
“On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also CALLING GOD HIS OWN FATHER, making himself equal to God.”
(He was not saying that he was equal to God, but rather “he was also calling God his own Father,” and in the minds of the Jews, this was tantamount to making himself equal with God.)
MATTHEW 26:59-63
“So the high priest said to him: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!”“ (What did the chief priest charge Jesus as saying he was? Surely if there was indication that he was claiming to be God or those around him believed this, then that accusation would have been made. These were the ones who were accusing them of anything they could, making stuff up, bringing in false witnesses. Surely if he was claiming to be God himself, they would have capitalized on this.)
LUKE 22:70
“Are you, therefore, the Son of God?”
MATTHEW 27:43
“let Him [God] now rescue him if He wants him, for he said, ‘I am God’s Son.’”
JOHN 19:7
“The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.”” (What did the Jews tell Pilate Jesus had made himself? If Jesus was claiming to be God, surely they who wanted him done away with would have charged him with this.)
MARK 14:61,62
“Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus said: “I am.” (So they were charging him with saying he was the “Son of” the God, and Jesus himself said: “I am.”)JOHN 10:36
“do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?” (Who did Jesus himself say he was?)MATTHEW 14:33
“Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You are really God’s Son.””
(Miraculously walking on water and calming the winds moved his disciples to what conclusion?)MATTHEW 27:40
“If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake!” (How did those mocking him while he was dying refer to him?)MATTHEW 27:54
“when they saw the earthquake and the things happening, grew very much afraid, saying: “Certainly this was God’s Son.”“ (What conclusion did the army officer there at Jesus death reach?)
MARK 15:39
“Now, when the army officer that was standing by with him in view saw he had expired under these circumstances, he said: “Certainly this man was God’s Son.””ROMANS 1:4
“but who with power was declared God’s Son.” (What was Jesus declared to be?)So we have an angel, demons, Jehovah, Jesus, John the Baptist, Nathanael, Peter, Martha, John, Paul, mockers of Jesus, an army officer who saw Jesus die, the Jews, all making very plain what they believed Jesus to be, the “Son of” God, or “God’s Son,” and hence, not God, but someone related to God, the “Son of” God.
“Son of God” occurs dozens of times the Bible.
“God the Son” occurs…. zero times.Think about this logically. Notice what HIS ACCUSERS were accusing him of:
JOHN 19:7
“The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.””
MARK 14:61,62
“Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus said: “I am.”
(So they were charging him with saying he was the “Son of” the God, and Jesus himself said: “I am.”)Surely if he was both God and “God's son” and surely if there was a law against making yourself “God's son” there would also be a law against making yourself “God” then these men who wanted him dead would go after the larger charge.
If I say I'm a rocket scientist and also Einstein reincarnated, you are not going to say: “Take him away! He thinks he's a rocket scientist.” Instead you would focus on the more serious delusion.
So too with those that wanted Jesus dead. If the belief was that he was God and at the same time “God's son” they would surely have charged him with both those things, but if they only made one charge, it would be claiming to be God himself. Yet, no charge of that sort. Did they want him dead or not? Or perhaps, Jesus really was as he claimed to be and as everyone around him knew him to be: The son “of” God.
Sola Scriptura mish mash. How can you presume to interpret a Catholic book outside of Catholic understanding?Hi CA,
Is the question relevant?
Human Religion is very popular but does it bring us into fellowship with God?Quote You're not going to like this…but “Jehovah” isn't a correct Hebrew term. The tetragrammaton is YHWH. –CA
#1.
CA, Here is a fun quote:
“”Jehovah”, the proper name of God in the Old Testament; hence the Jews called it 'the name' by excellence, the great name, the only name.”
–Catholic Encyclopedia 1913, Vol. 8, p. 329“…Yahweh (Jehovah), is the proper personal name of the God of Israel…the term Adonai, ‘My Lord’
was later used as a SUBSTITUTE. The word LORD in the present version represents the TRADITIONAL usage.”- New American Bible (Catholic), Introduction to the O. T., Page XI.I know they changed this stance.
Anyway, if God's name is Yahweh as you suggest, then why don't you in accord with scriptural tradition, in accord with the tradition of those who used God's name some 7000 times in scripture….why don't you use it? Were the Bible writers wrong to use it….7000 times?
#2. You never answered any of my questions or even hinted at answering what the post was about.
Why do you divert attention? When people do that I almost always think it's because they are wrong and don't have answers. Is this the case?You say Jesus is “God the Son.” But the Bible writers who apparently know less than many on here, did not use that expression, but rather, repeatedly said that YHWH (if you prefer) was God, and said this clearly without question 1000 times (and much less clearly thousands of other times.)
But Jesus is called the “son OF” God repeatedly, dozens of times. So why not follow the tradition of the Bible writers and call him the Son of God, as they did?
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 24 2009,21:10) Quote (david @ Aug. 24 2009,18:27) Quote Jesus is God the Son Even if he was “God the son” why use that expression? The Bible certainly does not ever speak of “God the son.”
Jesus is repeatedly called the “Son OF God” and hence, “of” God, therefore logically not the God that he is “of.”
Repeatedly the inspired Bible writers refer to him this way. It would be wise to follow their beliefs.Also, when looking at the Bible as a whole, I've counted literally a thousand times where Jehovah (YHWH) is referred to directly as “God.” LITERALLY a thousand.
Expressions we find in the Bible:
Jehovah God–50 times
the [true] God Jehovah–4 times
Jehovah their God–39 times
Jehovah the [true] God–8 times.
Jehovah is in truth God–1 time
Jehovah is God–1 time
Jehovah is my God–1 time
Jehovah is our God–1 time
Jehovah your God–455 times
Jehovah our God–105 times
Jehovah my God–40 times
Jehovah his God–29 times
Jehovah is a God–7 times
Jehovah the God of–204 times
Jehovah a God–1 timeSo that's about a thousand times. It's pretty clear the Jehovah is God. Many times Jesus is called the Son “of” God, meaning the Son of “the” God, Jehovah. And we all understand this. Where it gets confusing is that roughly 3-9 times (3 times for sure and 6 very unclear times) Jesus is referred to as “a god” or “God.”
When we understand that God means “powerful one” essentially, then we can understand how Israelite human judges and angels and Satan were all called gods. (They were all powerful in relation to others.)And of course, Jesus has been “given” “all authority and power” in heaven and earth, so the word “God” definitely fits.
You're not going to like this…but “Jehovah” isn't a correct Hebrew term. The tetragrammaton is YHWH.
Hi CatholicApologistAnd welcome! You are exactly right!
David already knows this but he refuses to let go of the falsehoods that his religion has taught him while accusing others of the same!
Blessings WJ
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 25 2009,13:12) Quote (david @ Aug. 24 2009,18:38) LUKE 1:32
“This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High.” (How did the angel announcing his birth refer to him? Compare Ps 83:18, where it says that Jehovah alone is the Most High.)LUKE 1:34
“For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.”MATTHEW 3:17
“Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”” (Who does Jehovah God’s testimony tell us Jesus is?)JOHN 1:34
“And I have seen [it], and I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.””
JOHN 1:49
“Nathańael answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.”” (How did Nathanael identify Jesus?)MATTHEW 16:16
“In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.””
(Jesus himself asked who they thought he was. With this response of Peter, Jesus pronounced him happy, because his Father had revealed this to him.)JOHN 11:27
“She [Martha] said to him: “Yes, Lord; I have believed that you are the Christ the Son of God.”” (What did Martha believe about Jesus?)JOHN 20:31
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.” (Why did John write what he did? What did he want us to believe?)JOHN 1:34
“I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.” (Did John bear witness that Jesus was God Almighty, or God’s Son?)1 JOHN 4:15
“Whoever makes the confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God . . .” (According to John, if we are to remain in union with God, what must confess?)1 JOHN 5:5
“Who is the one that conquers the world but he who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?” (According to John, what must we have faith in–that Jesus is God, or the “Son of” God?)
(It seems that John bore witness that Jesus was the “Son of” God, that he wrote what he did so that we would believe that Jesus was the “Son of” God, telling us to have faith that Jesus is the “Son of” God, and to confess that Jesus is the “Son of” God.)ACTS 9:20
“he [Peter] began to preach Jesus, that this One is the Son of God.” (What did the apostle Peter preach about Jesus?)MARK 1:24
“What have we to do with you, Jesus you Nazarené? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.” (The demons certainly knew “exactly” who Jesus was: the Holy One “of” God, and hence, not God Almighty himself.)
MATTHEW 8:29
“What have we to do with you, Son of God?”
MARK 3:11
“Even the unclean spirits, whenever they would behold him, would prostrate themselves before him and cry out, saying: “You are the Son of God.”“
LUKE 4:41
“Demons also would come out of many, crying out and saying: “You are the Son of God.”JOHN 5:18
“On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also CALLING GOD HIS OWN FATHER, making himself equal to God.”
(He was not saying that he was equal to God, but rather “he was also calling God his own Father,” and in the minds of the Jews, this was tantamount to making himself equal with God.)
MATTHEW 26:59-63
“So the high priest said to him: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!”“ (What did the chief priest charge Jesus as saying he was? Surely if there was indication that he was claiming to be God or those around him believed this, then that accusation would have been made. These were the ones who were accusing them of anything they could, making stuff up, bringing in false witnesses. Surely if he was claiming to be God himself, they would have capitalized on this.)
LUKE 22:70
“Are you, therefore, the Son of God?”
MATTHEW 27:43
“let Him [God] now rescue him if He wants him, for he said, ‘I am God’s Son.’”
JOHN 19:7
“The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.”” (What did the Jews tell Pilate Jesus had made himself? If Jesus was claiming to be God, surely they who wanted him done away with would have charged him with this.)
MARK 14:61,62
“Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus said: “I am.” (So they were charging him with saying he was the “Son of” the God, and Jesus himself said: “I am.”)JOHN 10:36
“do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?” (Who did Jesus himself say he was?)MATTHEW 14:33
“Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You are really God’s Son.””
(Miraculously walking on water and calming the winds moved his disciples to what conclusion?)MATTHEW 27:40
“If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake!” (How did those mocking him while he was dying refer to him?)MATTHEW 27:54
“when they saw the earthquake and the things happening, grew very much afraid, saying: “Certainly this was God’s Son.”“ (What conclusion did the army officer there at Jesus death reach?)
MARK 15:39
“Now, when the army officer that was standing by with him in view saw he had expired under these circumstances, he said: “Certainly this man was God’s Son.””ROMANS 1:4
“but who with power was declared God’s Son.” (What was Jesus declared to be?)So we have an angel, demons, Jehovah, Jesus, John the Baptist, Nathanael, Peter, Martha, John, Paul, mockers of Jesus, an army officer who saw Jesus die, the Jews, all making very plain what they believed Jesus to be, the “Son of” God, or “God’s Son,” and hence, not God, but someone related to God, the “Son of” God.
“Son of God” occurs dozens of times the Bible.
“God the Son” occurs…. zero times.Think about this logically. Notice what HIS ACCUSERS were accusing him of:
JOHN 19:7
“The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.””
MARK 14:61,62
“Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus said: “I am.”
(So they were charging him with saying he was the “Son of” the God, and Jesus himself said: “I am.”)Surely if he was both God and “God's son” and surely if there was a law against making yourself “God's son” there would also be a law against making yourself “God” then these men who wanted him dead would go after the larger charge.
If I say I'm a rocket scientist and also Einstein reincarnated, you are not going to say: “Take him away! He thinks he's a rocket scientist.” Instead you would focus on the more serious delusion.
So too with those that wanted Jesus dead. If the belief was that he was God and at the same time “God's son” they would surely have charged him with both those things, but if they only made one charge, it would be cl
aiming to be God himself. Yet, no charge of that sort. Did they want him dead or not? Or perhaps, Jesus really was as he claimed to be and as everyone around him knew him to be: The son “of” God.
Sola Scriptura mish mash. How can you presume to interpret a Catholic book outside of Catholic understanding?CA,
Yes, all those irritating scriptures. Best to ignore them. I understand.
So, your reasoning is: You have the correct understanding because you are Catholic and the Bible is Catholic.
Would you like me to find my list of fallacies?
You say I would need a Catholic understanding to understand them. Well guess what? I have a Catholic understanding. And guess what else? I can discuss them and reason on them. You do not want to do this. What are you afraid of? Is it what the Bible actually says?
Quote David already knows this but he refuses to let go of the falsehoods that his religion has taught him while accusing others of the same! But I'm not hypocritical about it. WJ, you should point out that no one ever called Jesus “Jesus.” You should point out to him Yahshua or Yaheshua or however you want to spell it in Hebrew took a rather odd route in reaching “Jesus.” Just as you'll say: “There's no “J” in Hebrew” I will say: Well, why do you call Jesus “Jesus”?
WJ, Worshipping “Jesus”, you know this and yet, for some reason, it only applies to Jehovah and not Jesus.
Why is that? Is it because it benefits your beliefs and makes life easier for you?
Quote (david @ Aug. 25 2009,02:26) Quote David already knows this but he refuses to let go of the falsehoods that his religion has taught him while accusing others of the same! But I'm not hypocritical about it. WJ, you should point out that no one ever called Jesus “Jesus.” You should point out to him Yahshua or Yaheshua or however you want to spell it in Hebrew took a rather odd route in reaching “Jesus.” Just as you'll say: “There's no “J” in Hebrew” I will say: Well, why do you call Jesus “Jesus”?
WJ, Worshipping “Jesus”, you know this and yet, for some reason, it only applies to Jehovah and not Jesus.
Why is that? Is it because it benefits your beliefs and makes life easier for you?
Hi DavidExactly!
You call him Jehovah, fine, so do I. You call Jesus Yeshua, or Yahshua fine.
The point is for a religion to say that the proper pronunciation of God is Jehovah therefore the translators were disingenous for translating YHWH as Lord in english is a straw!
You have never heard me say that Jesus cannot be called Yeshua, or YHWH Jehovah!
Shall we go into the NWT and show you the many times that watchtower mistranslated “Kyrios” as Jehovah?
WJ
Quote You have never heard me say that Jesus cannot be called Yeshua, or YHWH Jehovah! I know, WJ and never said you did. But you go and say: “hurray, bravo” when someone mentions “Jehovah” and yet, CA can use the word “Jesus” a thousand times and you won't say a peep.
Is that hypocritical?
Quote Exactly! You call him Jehovah, fine, so do I.
–WJ
Just out of curiosity, have you ever done so on this forum?
Quote The point is for a religion to say that the proper pronunciation of God is Jehovah You know, Jehovah's Witnesses, at least, not for a very very long time, if ever, have they said “Jehovah” is the “proper pronunciation of God.”
Our Insight on the Scriptures book (like an encyclopedia) says:
What is the proper pronunciation of God’s name?
In the second half of the first millennium C.E., Jewish scholars ……Since certainty of pronunciation is not now attainable, there seems to be no reason for abandoning in English the well-known form “Jehovah” in favor of some other suggested pronunciation. If such a change were made, then, to be consistent, changes should be made in the spelling and pronunciation of a host of other names found in the Scriptures: Jeremiah would be changed to Yir·meyah′, Isaiah would become Yesha‛·ya′hu, and Jesus would be either Yehoh·shu′a‛ (as in Hebrew) or I·e·sous′ (as in Greek). The purpose of words is to transmit thoughts; in English the name Jehovah identifies the true God, transmitting this thought more satisfactorily today than any of the suggested substitutes.This was the same point I was making to you….consistency. Someone can not say: “Jehovah” is all wrong, as they go on to mention “Jesus” a hundred times. Do you not find that a little odd?
I also found this:
“So in time the proper pronunciation of YHWH became generally unknown.” (Watchtower 1964, 7/15)Quote (david @ Aug. 24 2009,18:38) LUKE 1:32
“This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High.” (How did the angel announcing his birth refer to him? Compare Ps 83:18, where it says that Jehovah alone is the Most High.)LUKE 1:34
“For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.”MATTHEW 3:17
“Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”” (Who does Jehovah God’s testimony tell us Jesus is?)JOHN 1:34
“And I have seen [it], and I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.””
JOHN 1:49
“Nathańael answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.”” (How did Nathanael identify Jesus?)MATTHEW 16:16
“In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.””
(Jesus himself asked who they thought he was. With this response of Peter, Jesus pronounced him happy, because his Father had revealed this to him.)JOHN 11:27
“She [Martha] said to him: “Yes, Lord; I have believed that you are the Christ the Son of God.”” (What did Martha believe about Jesus?)JOHN 20:31
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.” (Why did John write what he did? What did he want us to believe?)JOHN 1:34
“I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.” (Did John bear witness that Jesus was God Almighty, or God’s Son?)1 JOHN 4:15
“Whoever makes the confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God . . .” (According to John, if we are to remain in union with God, what must confess?)1 JOHN 5:5
“Who is the one that conquers the world but he who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?” (According to John, what must we have faith in–that Jesus is God, or the “Son of” God?)
(It seems that John bore witness that Jesus was the “Son of” God, that he wrote what he did so that we would believe that Jesus was the “Son of” God, telling us to have faith that Jesus is the “Son of” God, and to confess that Jesus is the “Son of” God.)ACTS 9:20
“he [Peter] began to preach Jesus, that this One is the Son of God.” (What did the apostle Peter preach about Jesus?)MARK 1:24
“What have we to do with you, Jesus you Nazarené? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.” (The demons certainly knew “exactly” who Jesus was: the Holy One “of” God, and hence, not God Almighty himself.)
MATTHEW 8:29
“What have we to do with you, Son of God?”
MARK 3:11
“Even the unclean spirits, whenever they would behold him, would prostrate themselves before him and cry out, saying: “You are the Son of God.”“
LUKE 4:41
“Demons also would come out of many, crying out and saying: “You are the Son of God.”JOHN 5:18
“On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also CALLING GOD HIS OWN FATHER, making himself equal to God.”
(He was not saying that he was equal to God, but rather “he was also calling God his own Father,” and in the minds of the Jews, this was tantamount to making himself equal with God.)
MATTHEW 26:59-63
“So the high priest said to him: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!”“ (What did the chief priest charge Jesus as saying he was? Surely if there was indication that he was claiming to be God or those around him believed this, then that accusation would have been made. These were the ones who were accusing them of anything they could, making stuff up, bringing in false witnesses. Surely if he was claiming to be God himself, they would have capitalized on this.)
LUKE 22:70
“Are you, therefore, the Son of God?”
MATTHEW 27:43
“let Him [God] now rescue him if He wants him, for he said, ‘I am God’s Son.’”
JOHN 19:7
“The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.”” (What did the Jews tell Pilate Jesus had made himself? If Jesus was claiming to be God, surely they who wanted him done away with would have charged him with this.)
MARK 14:61,62
“Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus said: “I am.” (So they were charging him with saying he was the “Son of” the God, and Jesus himself said: “I am.”)JOHN 10:36
“do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?” (Who did Jesus himself say he was?)MATTHEW 14:33
“Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You are really God’s Son.””
(Miraculously walking on water and calming the winds moved his disciples to what conclusion?)MATTHEW 27:40
“If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake!” (How did those mocking him while he was dying refer to him?)MATTHEW 27:54
“when they saw the earthquake and the things happening, grew very much afraid, saying: “Certainly this was God’s Son.”“ (What conclusion did the army officer there at Jesus death reach?)
MARK 15:39
“Now, when the army officer that was standing by with him in view saw he had expired under these circumstances, he said: “Certainly this man was God’s Son.””ROMANS 1:4
“but who with power was declared God’s Son.” (What was Jesus declared to be?)So we have an angel, demons, Jehovah, Jesus, John the Baptist, Nathanael, Peter, Martha, John, Paul, mockers of Jesus, an army officer who saw Jesus die, the Jews, all making very plain what they believed Jesus to be, the “Son of” God, or “God’s Son,” and hence, not God, but someone related to God, the “Son of” God.
“Son of God” occurs dozens of times the Bible.
“God the Son” occurs…. zero times.Think about this logically. Notice what HIS ACCUSERS were accusing him of:
JOHN 19:7
“The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.””
MARK 14:61,62
“Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus said: “I am.”
(So they were charging him with saying he was the “Son of” the God, and Jesus himself said: “I am.”)Surely if he was both God and “God's son” and surely if there was a law against making yourself “God's son” there would also be a law against making yourself “God” then these men who wanted him dead would go after the larger charge.
If I say I'm a rocket scientist and also Einstein reincarnated, you are not going to say: “Take him away! He thinks he's a rocket scientist.” Instead you would focus on the more serious delusion.
So too with those that wanted Jesus dead. If the belief was that he was God and at the same time “God's son” they would surely have charged him with both those things, but if they only made one charge, it would be claiming to be God himself. Yet, no charge of that sort. Did they want him dead or not? Or perhaps, Jesus really was as he claimed to be and as everyone around him knew him to be: The son “of” God.
“Jesus: god the son or son of god?”I thought we could come back to the actual question and some scriptures that are extremely relevant, that seem to want to be ignored
Quote (thethinker @ May 23 2009,12:06) Lightenup said: Quote I believe that GOD would give birth to the same kind as Himself, ya know GOD begets God, man begets man kind of thing. GOD the Father could not pass on His “always existence” quality though which would set Him apart as the Most High GOD over any that He Himself begat (gave birth to). Hmmmm…I wonder why Jesus did not call God His Mother seeing that only mothers give birth?
Jeremy,
Kathi's view is the most bizarre of all views here. She has repeatedly said that God reproduced Himself by begetting. But now she has gone further. Now she is saying that God reproduces Himself by giving birth too.So God is not merely Christ's father. God is actually Christ's father-mother. It just gets crazier all the time
thinker
Wow TT,Isn't it you that doesn't even believe that “God” is a community and Jesus and The Father and The Holy Spirit are all God and somehow this community also calls Jesus the son of God which would somehow mean that The Father and The Holy Spirit are his parents for he is the only one out of the three that was put in the flesh. So you like Kathi are calling God Christ's Father-Mother.
And yes it does get crazier all the time especially when you can't see that your guilty of what you accuse others of.
Your view may be even crazier assuming you believe that The Holy Spirit is an independent “he” making God the Father-Father of Jesus
Anyway, if God's name is Yahweh as you suggest, then why don't you in accord with scriptural tradition, in accord with the tradition of those who used God's name some 7000 times in scripture….why don't you use it? Were the Bible writers wrong to use it….7000 times?
Go read the Catholic Jerusalem Bible. I think you'll find it quite exhilarating.
#2. You never answered any of my questions or even hinted at answering what the post was about.
Why do you divert attention? When people do that I almost always think it's because they are wrong and don't have answers. Is this the case?You say Jesus is “God the Son.” But the Bible writers who apparently know less than many on here, did not use that expression, but rather, repeatedly said that YHWH (if you prefer) was God, and said this clearly without question 1000 times (and much less clearly thousands of other times.)
But Jesus is called the “son OF” God repeatedly, dozens of times. So why not follow the tradition of the Bible writers and call him the Son of God, as they did?
Sorry, I didn't mean to divert attention. I find your question irrelevant. You can't know by the incomplete revelation of the Scriptures we gave the world. They weren't meant to be a source book to figure everything out.
But I sure do love them, quote them, and pray them.
Anyway, if God's name is Yahweh as you suggest, then why don't you in accord with scriptural tradition, in accord with the tradition of those who used God's name some 7000 times in scripture….why don't you use it? Were the Bible writers wrong to use it….7000 times?
Go read the Catholic Jerusalem Bible. I think you'll find it quite exhilarating.
#2. You never answered any of my questions or even hinted at answering what the post was about.
Why do you divert attention? When people do that I almost always think it's because they are wrong and don't have answers. Is this the case?You say Jesus is “God the Son.” But the Bible writers who apparently know less than many on here, did not use that expression, but rather, repeatedly said that YHWH (if you prefer) was God, and said this clearly without question 1000 times (and much less clearly thousands of other times.)
But Jesus is called the “son OF” God repeatedly, dozens of times. So why not follow the tradition of the Bible writers and call him the Son of God, as they did?
Sorry, I didn't mean to divert attention. I find your question irrelevant. You can't know by the incomplete revelation of the Scriptures we gave the world. They weren't meant to be a source book to figure everything out.
But I sure do love them, quote them, and pray them.
Quote CA, Yes, all those irritating scriptures. Best to ignore them. I understand.
So, your reasoning is: You have the correct understanding because you are Catholic and the Bible is Catholic.
Would you like me to find my list of fallacies?
You say I would need a Catholic understanding to understand them. Well guess what? I have a Catholic understanding. And guess what else? I can discuss them and reason on them. You do not want to do this. What are you afraid of? Is it what the Bible actually says?
Actually the Scriptures are such a wonderful gift of God to us. I find them just the opposite of irritating. They are sweet like honey in the honeycomb.
But I know it makes you comfortable to imagine that the Sacred Scriptures are unpalatable to me. Then you can continue compartmentalizing me and you don't have to deal with the truth of which I speak.
You still haven't given one proof text for the view that Scripture is the ONLY rule for faith and practice.
Please see my posts at the Sola Scriptura thread.
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