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Quote (Lightenup @ May 26 2009,04:08) Hi Georg, Really, when you get down to it, the questions are:
1. Can and did GOD reproduce to gain His Son before all things were created?
or
2. Can and did GOD create His Son before all other things were created?
or
3. Was the Son eternally generated (always existent in eternity past as a Son) as the trinity doctrine states.
or
4. Was the Son a son by declaration when He became flesh and not a son when all things were created?I have embraced the theory that GOD did reproduce to gain His Son before He created all things. Now, if in fact, He did reproduce what would the offspring be like? He would definitely be younger than His parent, have the same nature as His parent, have the same body type of His parent. He would not automatically have the same abilities as His parent except that which is inherent to the body type and nature.
I suggest that His body type is a spiritual body type and His nature consists of a fullness of grace and truth.
So, Georg, I think that we define nature differently and you see the Son as created and I see Him as the result of reproduction and not created. We also think about “image” differently.
Also, I believe that our next bodies will be spiritual bodies and thus we become spiritual beings.
Kathi
Kathi! The Bible however tells us that Jesus is the Firstborn of all creation.
Rev. 3:14… ” These things says the men, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.Col. 1: 15-17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are on earth…..
verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things
consist.
verse 18 And He is the head of body, the Church, who, is the beginning, the firstborn of the dead, that in all He may have preeminence. Meaning that He was first in all.
One more thing it says that He was brought Forth from the Father, not born like the Humans do. The firstborn of all creation not born, but created.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 07 2009,13:07) Jodi and Adam………….You both understand that Jesus was a Man who came into existence at his berth on earth, and He is the first (MAN) to recieve eternal life, the (First) raised by GOD from the DEAD. And this is indeed our HOPE also that GOD the FATHER will raise us Up and put us together with Jesus for ever. This awareness is a sign of the HOLY SPIRIT in each of you. All the false teachers of Jesus as a GOD and His preexistence and teachings of doctrines about demons and devils are all from the apostate churches and are not of the truth. IMO peace and love to both of you and yours…………………………gene
Gene You and Jodi for that matter deny the Scriptures that say that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation. He was with the Father before the creation and is the first in all. He is also the firstborn of the dead so in all He has prominence, meaning He was first in all. And if you interpreting those Scriptures any other way you are interpreting and adding to it.
In John 17:5 He said this:” And Now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with You before the world was.”
Along with Col. 1:15-17 andRev. 3:14 He was with the Father before all things were created by Jesus through the power of the Father.
Please don't do what you always do, don't add or deny. Believe me I too did not understand at first, but fortunately God did not leave me in that unbelief. I really don't understand that some of you take a mans ore an Organisations word for it. The Bible tells us to prove all things. The Breena's did too, and so should we.
1 Thess. 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ Aug. 24 2009,06:02) Jesus is God the Son
No! Jesus is the son of God according to the scriptures. There is no such thing as God the son.Hi JN,
So two are one in the Spirit.
Jesus is the son of God made one in the Spirit with God.We can follow him.
Hi JN,
Scriptiure says GOD WAS IN CHRIST[2Cor5.19}
Was God in Himself?Can you expound Acts 10.38 for us?
Quote Jesus is God the Son Even if he was “God the son” why use that expression? The Bible certainly does not ever speak of “God the son.”
Jesus is repeatedly called the “Son OF God” and hence, “of” God, therefore logically not the God that he is “of.”
Repeatedly the inspired Bible writers refer to him this way. It would be wise to follow their beliefs.Also, when looking at the Bible as a whole, I've counted literally a thousand times where Jehovah (YHWH) is referred to directly as “God.” LITERALLY a thousand.
Expressions we find in the Bible:
Jehovah God–50 times
the [true] God Jehovah–4 times
Jehovah their God–39 times
Jehovah the [true] God–8 times.
Jehovah is in truth God–1 time
Jehovah is God–1 time
Jehovah is my God–1 time
Jehovah is our God–1 time
Jehovah your God–455 times
Jehovah our God–105 times
Jehovah my God–40 times
Jehovah his God–29 times
Jehovah is a God–7 times
Jehovah the God of–204 times
Jehovah a God–1 timeSo that's about a thousand times. It's pretty clear the Jehovah is God. Many times Jesus is called the Son “of” God, meaning the Son of “the” God, Jehovah. And we all understand this. Where it gets confusing is that roughly 3-9 times (3 times for sure and 6 very unclear times) Jesus is referred to as “a god” or “God.”
When we understand that God means “powerful one” essentially, then we can understand how Israelite human judges and angels and Satan were all called gods. (They were all powerful in relation to others.)And of course, Jesus has been “given” “all authority and power” in heaven and earth, so the word “God” definitely fits.
LUKE 1:32
“This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High.” (How did the angel announcing his birth refer to him? Compare Ps 83:18, where it says that Jehovah alone is the Most High.)LUKE 1:34
“For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.”MATTHEW 3:17
“Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”” (Who does Jehovah God’s testimony tell us Jesus is?)JOHN 1:34
“And I have seen [it], and I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.””
JOHN 1:49
“Nathańael answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.”” (How did Nathanael identify Jesus?)MATTHEW 16:16
“In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.””
(Jesus himself asked who they thought he was. With this response of Peter, Jesus pronounced him happy, because his Father had revealed this to him.)JOHN 11:27
“She [Martha] said to him: “Yes, Lord; I have believed that you are the Christ the Son of God.”” (What did Martha believe about Jesus?)JOHN 20:31
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.” (Why did John write what he did? What did he want us to believe?)JOHN 1:34
“I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.” (Did John bear witness that Jesus was God Almighty, or God’s Son?)1 JOHN 4:15
“Whoever makes the confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God . . .” (According to John, if we are to remain in union with God, what must confess?)1 JOHN 5:5
“Who is the one that conquers the world but he who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?” (According to John, what must we have faith in–that Jesus is God, or the “Son of” God?)
(It seems that John bore witness that Jesus was the “Son of” God, that he wrote what he did so that we would believe that Jesus was the “Son of” God, telling us to have faith that Jesus is the “Son of” God, and to confess that Jesus is the “Son of” God.)ACTS 9:20
“he [Peter] began to preach Jesus, that this One is the Son of God.” (What did the apostle Peter preach about Jesus?)MARK 1:24
“What have we to do with you, Jesus you Nazarené? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.” (The demons certainly knew “exactly” who Jesus was: the Holy One “of” God, and hence, not God Almighty himself.)
MATTHEW 8:29
“What have we to do with you, Son of God?”
MARK 3:11
“Even the unclean spirits, whenever they would behold him, would prostrate themselves before him and cry out, saying: “You are the Son of God.”“
LUKE 4:41
“Demons also would come out of many, crying out and saying: “You are the Son of God.”JOHN 5:18
“On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also CALLING GOD HIS OWN FATHER, making himself equal to God.”
(He was not saying that he was equal to God, but rather “he was also calling God his own Father,” and in the minds of the Jews, this was tantamount to making himself equal with God.)
MATTHEW 26:59-63
“So the high priest said to him: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!”“ (What did the chief priest charge Jesus as saying he was? Surely if there was indication that he was claiming to be God or those around him believed this, then that accusation would have been made. These were the ones who were accusing them of anything they could, making stuff up, bringing in false witnesses. Surely if he was claiming to be God himself, they would have capitalized on this.)
LUKE 22:70
“Are you, therefore, the Son of God?”
MATTHEW 27:43
“let Him [God] now rescue him if He wants him, for he said, ‘I am God’s Son.’”
JOHN 19:7
“The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.”” (What did the Jews tell Pilate Jesus had made himself? If Jesus was claiming to be God, surely they who wanted him done away with would have charged him with this.)
MARK 14:61,62
“Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus said: “I am.” (So they were charging him with saying he was the “Son of” the God, and Jesus himself said: “I am.”)JOHN 10:36
“do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?” (Who did Jesus himself say he was?)MATTHEW 14:33
“Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You are really God’s Son.””
(Miraculously walking on water and calming the winds moved his disciples to what conclusion?)MATTHEW 27:40
“If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake!” (How did those mocking him while he was dying refer to him?)MATTHEW 27:54
“when they saw the earthquake and the things happening, grew very much afraid, saying: “Certainly this was God’s Son.”“ (What conclusion did the army officer there at Jesus death reach?)
MARK 15:39
“Now, when the army officer that was standing by with him in view saw he had expired under these circumstances, he said: “Certainly this man was God’s Son.””ROMANS 1:4
“but who with power was declared God’s Son.” (What was Jesus declared to be?)So we have an angel, demons, Jehovah, Jesus, John the Baptist, Nathanael, Peter, Martha, John, Paul, mockers of Jesus, an army officer who saw Jesus die, the Jews, all making very plain what they believed Jesus to be, the “Son of” God, or “God’s Son,” and hence, not God, but someone related to God, the “Son of” God.
“Son of God” occurs dozens of times the Bible.
“God the Son” occurs…. zero times.Think about this logically. Notice what HIS ACCUSERS were accusing him of:
JOHN 19:7
“The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.””
MARK 14:61,62
“Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus said: “I am.”
(So they were charging him with saying he was the “Son of” the God, and Jesus himself said: “I am.”)Surely if he was both God and “God's son” and surely if there was a law against making yourself “God's son” there would also be a law against making yourself “God” then these men who wanted him dead would go after the larger charge.
If I say I'm a rocket scientist and also Einstein reincarnated, you are not going to say: “Take him away! He thinks he's a rocket scientist.” Instead you would focus on the more serious delusion.
So too with those that wanted Jesus dead. If the belief was that he was God and at the same time “God's son” they would surely have charged him with both those things, but if they only made one charge, it would be claiming to be God himself. Yet, no charge of that sort. Did they want him dead or not? Or perhaps, Jesus really was as he claimed to be and as everyone around him knew him to be: The son “of” God.
Hi JN,
So Jesus did not have the authority to give the same power to others?
Did Peter raise Tabitha?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 24 2009,14:39) Hi JN,
So when he gave the same authority to the disciples in Jn 19 they became God too?
Hi NHThats a lie against the truth!
Can you forgive mens sins against God?
If you can then why not forgive all their sins so they will be saved. Because if they are forgiven then of all their sins then they will be saved, right?
No you have the power only to forgive those who sin against you!
WJ
Hi WJ,
So you agree that forgiving sin and raising the dead does not make one God?
Jesus was a man anointed by God with the Holy Spirit and power.[Acts 10]We have been given the role of continuing the work of Jesus and reconciling men to God just as Peter taught in Acts 2
Quote but Jesus forgave sins making imself God right? Hi CA.
I discuss your comments regarding this in another post.
BUT, did you notice how those around Jesus, when asked about his identity, identified him as the “Son of” God and not God himself.
A thousand times without question we are told that Jehovah (YHWH) is God. And 6000 other times where it is not as clear, but still not questioned.
And, 3-9 times (depending on how trinitarian you are) Jesus is called by that word “God.”Why do you think this is CA?
Why do you think those around him when asked who he was said he was the “Son of” God?Could you answer these questions fro me CA?
david
CA, also, if this is the case:
Quote “Son of God” occurs dozens of times the Bible.
“God the Son” occurs…. zero times.Why even use that non-biblical expression “God the Son” when the Bible writers themselves spoke of him as the “God's Son” or the “Son of” God?
CA, even if he was God the Son, many people use that non-biblical expression so often that others believe you can find it in the Bible. You can't. They seem to think that repeating it over and over and louder and louder makes it true. Why do you think CA, when asked about Jesus identity, those others above said he was the “Son of” God instead of saying “God” or God the Son?
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