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I pulled this from another section of this website.
The section was examining if the trinity doctrince was IN scripture.
I do not support the trinity doctrine but I would like to examine the claims.
The section was stating Jesus is not God and gave these examples to understand who Jesus is.
Quote God has spoken to us through the Prophets and now his Son.
See Hebrews 1:1-6
The Son is the exact brightness of Gods glory.
See Hebrews 1:1-6
He is the image of the invisible God.
See Colossians 1:12-16
God sustains all things by his Word (Jesus is the Word of God).
See Hebrews 1:1-6 & John 1:1
He is seated at the right hand of God.
See Colossians 3:1-3
He inherited a name more superior to the Angels.
See Hebrews 1:1-6
He is worthy to be worshipped by Angels.
See Hebrews 1:1-6
God became a Father when he begat his son “You are my Son, today I have become your Father”.
See Hebrews 1:1-6
He is the Firstborn from the Dead.
See Revelation 1:4-6
Jesus has first place in everything.
Jesus is head over the Church.
See Ephesians 1:22
He is Gods firstborn.
See Hebrews 1:1-6
Jesus is the Ruler or Beginning of the Creation of God.
See Revelation 3:14
Jesus is begotten, not created.
See John 1:3I'd like to touch these real quick.
——-
First off I agree with all of it, but here's my position in understanding Jesus' divinity.
The list states he's worthy to be worshipped by angels.
Not only Angels but everyone…for every knee shall bow before the lamb.According to the OT, only God is worthy of worship.
I'd also like to add that Jesus is The alpha and Omega.
According to the OT, only God is The Alpha and Omega.
Jesus was not created, he was begotten.
Everything else besides Jesus, we know to be created, this helps us understand that he came from YHVH's very own flesh/fabric/essence as oppose to being made
He is the exact brightness of YHVH's glory.
Who could amount to God's glory but God himself? You can't match perfection, only God can match perfection
He is the image of the invisible God
This doesn't say he was made in the image or likeness, it says that HE IS the image.Now I can touch on each one and it all fits perfectly into my cause, but I think I have sufficient imagery to prove my point.
If Jesus was but a mere man, all of christianity is in jeopardy for commiting the highest form of idolatry.
But as we know, we don't use man's mistakes to condemn God.
This issue however, also provides plenty of contradictions within the bible itself.
Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law but to fufill it.
Whereas the law condemns, Jesus atones.
Atonement doesn't change the law.
So if God said something in the OT…it is just as much valid as it is today than it was 4 thousand years ago!
If Jesus was but a mere man, all these statements would be blasphemy and idolatry.
(do i have to illustrate?)
but if Jesus is a manifestation of YHVH…it all makes perfect genius sense.
See because a manifestation is just that, a manifestation.
If you want to be successful, and you manifest your success with a good career. Is your career success itself?
Absolutely not, but it's a reflection of success.
In the same way if you manifest happiness with going to the park.
Is the park happiness itself?
Nope, but a reflection of that happiness.
———-
In the same light, if God manifested as Jesus Christ…does it make Jesus Christ YHVH himself?
Nope, but purely a reflection thereof.
—–
So what does it mean?
Jesus is a manifestation of YHVH himself which means he is NOT YHVH himself but only a reflection of.
—-
Is that understanding consistent with scripture?
Well lets see.…. Well i was going to list all the conflicting scripture side by side so you can see the picture i'm trying to paint, but instead i'll just say them.
The word of god was with god and is god.
If YHVH is God only, a manifestation can co-exist with it's source…in the same way a mirror with your image can co-exist with you.
In the beginning was the image, the image was with god, and the image WAS God
1 tim 3:16 God was manifest in flesh…
This one explicitely states my point.Everything was made by Jesus' hand (creation attributed to the son) even though God said in the OT he made the worlds
Well if the manifestation only does as he sees the source doing…then it makes perfect sense that God created everything, THROUGH Jesus Christ.
We have only one God
Yup, works here too…One God, different manifestations.
YHVH will not share his glory with another
Well if you pray to the manifestation, you are praying to the source in the same light as if I say hello to you via a mirror, i'm not talking to the mirror, but the person reflected in the mirror….
So long as I don't believe that YOU ARE THE MIRROR, in which I do not believe Jesus is YHVH but only a manifestation of
hhhmm, what else…
God is spirit
Duhhhh, he's invisible. everything visible comes from the invisible… including manifestations.
I'm running out of contradictions… =/
Jesus is God
well a manifestation is only an image of…Jesus is God in the sense of title. The almighty most high God is reserved for YHVH alone. The image and manifestation just isn't The Almighty Most High….
—-
So I conclude.
I believe the issue between anti-trinitarians and people like me who believe Jesus is God has always been communication.
I guess i've never done a good job of portraying that YHVH is Jesus even though Jesus is not YHVH.
I guess the best way to describe my understanding is…
YHVH has ALWAYS and forever been IN JESUS.
The application shows that they are not the same being, but to always be connected and tied since and always forever is beyond human comprehension…so much so that their beings would seem so similar that it would appear as they are one in the same.
So much so, that even YHVH himself shares his glory, not as The Most High but in every other way.
does anyone disagree?
please read the post before you do…If anyone disagrees, don't argue the post…
lets be more constructive since we're all looking for truth.Instead, I challenge anyone who disagrees to provide scripture rebuttaling my cause.
I'll then respond, to cross-examine any piece of scripture to see if it fits in with my cause.
——-This is a challenge to anti-trinitarians and trinitarians a-like.
Hi RM,
Jesus was not born till 2000 years ago so the Spirit was not in him before that.The Spirit of Christ that anointed him at the Jordan was active before then.[1Peter 1]
Now Jesus is alive in that Spirit and therein is our hope too.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 29 2010,09:19) Hi RM,
Jesus was not born till 2000 years ago so the Spirit was not in him before that.The Spirit of Christ that anointed him at the Jordan was active before then.[1Peter 1]
Now Jesus is alive in that Spirit and therein is our hope too.
Scripture states Jesus is The Word of God, manifested as flesh.Scripture says he came from heaven, and he said it himself that he held glory with YHVH before the world was.
If you're pertaining to Jesus in flesh. Sure…i agree with you
but even you said it yourself, we do not refer to him as flesh anymore. 2cor5?
Hi RM,
Where does scripture say that JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD MANIFESTED AS FLESH?
The Spirit of Christ often spoke through him and was from heaven.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 29 2010,09:29) Hi RM,
Where does scripture say that JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD MANIFESTED AS FLESH?
The Spirit of Christ often spoke through him and was from heaven.
Lol John 1.Read it.
John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
All in John 1.
maybe you should start reading the KJV.
It's accurate if you want to use a bible tool to help you understand the greek meanings.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 29 2010,19:26) HI RM,
So no Jesus there?
Why did you say his name was?
Actually Jesus was there….did you miss the part in John 14 where it said….
…the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
—-
Damn Nick, open and READ your damn bible before you come here debating.
Quote (RokkaMan @ June 29 2010,18:39) John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
All in John 1.
maybe you should start reading the KJV.
It's accurate if you want to use a bible tool to help you understand the greek meanings.
Hi RokkaMan,“The Word” is made flesh in all that the “HolySpirit” inhabits! Look carefully at these…
Acts12:24 …”The Word” ([ο λογος] Hō Lōgôs) of God grew and multiplied. (Rom.10:17)
Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand
what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour,
that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak(s “The Word”), but the HolySpirit (that speaks “The Word”).God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2010,07:39) Hi RM,
Are you so impatient with dissenters that you would DAMN them?
Don't attack God for the mistakes of Man. If I damn you, it doesn't change scripture.—-
BTW ED J you need to read the content of the scripture you provide before you present it as a rebuttal, because frankly it has no meaning or bearing on the point i've proved.
Quote (Ed J @ June 30 2010,07:24) Quote (RokkaMan @ June 29 2010,18:39) John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
All in John 1.
maybe you should start reading the KJV.
It's accurate if you want to use a bible tool to help you understand the greek meanings.
Hi RokkaMan,“The Word” is made flesh in all that the “HolySpirit” inhabits! Look carefully at these…
Acts12:24 …”The Word” ([ο λογος] Hō Lōgôs) of God grew and multiplied. (Rom.10:17)
Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand
what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour,
that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak(s “The Word”), but the HolySpirit (that speaks “The Word”).God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
So far, what you've done.In which I charge against… to be very dangerous.
Is that you have taken 3-4 single 1 liner verses of the bible.
and systematically pieced them together to allign with your invalid point.
—–
When you use scripture to preach, you must read before the verse and after it to understand the CONTEXT of what is being said.
—–
Anyone can take one liners and make it say whatever they want. It's not the words in the bible that are powerful, it's the meaning behind them.
—–
here is an example of abusing scripture….in which you just did.
1 cor 7:36: But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.
Now reading just a few passages above this verse, you will find that the relationship between this man and his virgin is that of Father and Daughter.
Taking this passage alone, an invalid conclusion on the context of this verse would show that it is permissable by God that a Father can Marry and have sex with his daughter.
This is the DANGERS of verse picking in which you and Nick tend to do ALOT
The real meaning of the verse is in context of a Father GIVING his virgin daughter in MARRIAGE.
Paul is advising, if you want to be perfect before God…keep your daughters from marriage and keep them as virgins till death, but if your daughters are of age and WANT to get married on their own accord; understand that it is better to keep them as virgins, but if they so choose and are of age, let them marry for it is NOT A SIN.
———
Now thats the true meaning of the passage.As we can see, it is very dangerous to cherry pick verses without understanding the context of what is being said
Quote (RokkaMan @ July 03 2010,08:37) Quote (Ed J @ June 30 2010,07:24) Quote (RokkaMan @ June 29 2010,18:39) John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
All in John 1.
maybe you should start reading the KJV.
It's accurate if you want to use a bible tool to help you understand the greek meanings.
Hi RokkaMan,“The Word” is made flesh in all that the “HolySpirit” inhabits! Look carefully at these…
Acts12:24 …”The Word” ([ο λογος] Hō Lōgôs) of God grew and multiplied. (Rom.10:17)
Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand
what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour,
that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak(s “The Word”), but the HolySpirit (that speaks “The Word”).God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
So far, what you've done.In which I charge against… to be very dangerous.
Is that you have taken 3-4 single 1 liner verses of the bible.
and systematically pieced them together to allign with your invalid point.
—–
When you use scripture to preach, you must read before the verse and after it to understand the CONTEXT of what is being said.
—–
Anyone can take one liners and make it say whatever they want. It's not the words in the bible that are powerful, it's the meaning behind them.
—–
here is an example of abusing scripture….in which you just did.
1 cor 7:36: But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.
Now reading just a few passages above this verse, you will find that the relationship between this man and his virgin is that of Father and Daughter.
Taking this passage alone, an invalid conclusion on the context of this verse would show that it is permissable by God that a Father can Marry and have sex with his daughter.
This is the DANGERS of verse picking in which you and Nick tend to do ALOT
The real meaning of the verse is in context of a Father GIVING his virgin daughter in MARRIAGE.
Paul is advising, if you want to be perfect before God…keep your daughters from marriage and keep them as virgins till death, but if your daughters are of age and WANT to get married on their own accord; understand that it is better to keep them as virgins, but if they so choose and are of age, let them marry for it is NOT A SIN.
———
Now thats the true meaning of the passage.As we can see, it is very dangerous to cherry pick verses without understanding the context of what is being said
HI RokkaMan,You taking certain sections of Scripture out to try to make them align with your presuppositions is not wise.
You need to understand God's Word as a whole to illustrate it's “Truth”!For instance John 14:24 goes clearly against what you preach!
Unless you can align it with your assertions, I suggest you drop your faulty assertions.John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and
“The Word”([ο λογος] Hō Lōgôs) which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.Do you keep Jesus sayings or the sayings of 'the systems of religion'?
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.Quote (Ed J @ July 03 2010,20:24) Quote (RokkaMan @ July 03 2010,08:37) Quote (Ed J @ June 30 2010,07:24) Quote (RokkaMan @ June 29 2010,18:39) John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
All in John 1.
maybe you should start reading the KJV.
It's accurate if you want to use a bible tool to help you understand the greek meanings.
Hi RokkaMan,“The Word” is made flesh in all that the “HolySpirit” inhabits! Look carefully at these…
Acts12:24 …”The Word” ([ο λογος] Hō Lōgôs) of God grew and multiplied. (Rom.10:17)
Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand
what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour,
that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak(s “The Word”), but the HolySpirit (that speaks “The Word”).God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
So far, what you've done.In which I charge against… to be very dangerous.
Is that you have taken 3-4 single 1 liner verses of the bible.
and systematically pieced them together to allign with your invalid point.
—–
When you use scripture to preach, you must read before the verse and after it to understand the CONTEXT of what is being said.
—–
Anyone can take one liners and make it say whatever they want. It's not the words in the bible that are powerful, it's the meaning behind them.
—–
here is an example of abusing scripture….in which you just did.
1 cor 7:36: But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.
Now reading just a few passages above this verse, you will find that the relationship between this man and his virgin is that of Father and Daughter.
Taking this passage alone, an invalid conclusion on the context of this verse would show that it is permissable by God that a Father can Marry and have sex with his daughter.
This is the DANGERS of verse picking in which you and Nick tend to do ALOT
The real meaning of the verse is in context of a Father GIVING his virgin daughter in MARRIAGE.
Paul is advising, if you want to be perfect before God…keep your daughters from marriage and keep them as virgins till death, but if your daughters are of age and WANT to get married on their own accord; understand that it is better to keep them as virgins, but if they so choose and are of age, let them marry for it is NOT A SIN.
———
Now thats the true meaning of the passage.As we can see, it is very dangerous to cherry pick verses without understanding the context of what is being said
HI RokkaMan,You taking certain sections of Scripture out to try to make them align with your presuppositions is not wise.
You need to understand God's Word as a whole to illustrate it's “Truth”!For instance John 14:24 goes clearly against what you preach!
Unless you can align it with your assertions, I suggest you drop your faulty assertions.John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and
“The Word”([ο λογος] Hō Lōgôs) which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.Do you keep Jesus sayings or the sayings of 'the systems of religion'?
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.
The only two things Jesus commanded were
1. To love your God with all your heart, mind and soul.
and
2. Love your neighbor as you would love yourself.——-
I keep those sayings closer to me than anything in this life.
——-
Is there anything I have said that isn't found in scripture?
If there is, then charge against me and lets discuss where we don't agree.
So far my position is this.
The Word of God is God himself.
The Word of God manifested in flesh.
The flesh is known to us today as the man Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is known to be The only begotten Son of YHVH.
Without sin and perfect obedience, he took on all the sins of the world on the cross; being condemned for sins he did not commit.
He died and went to abraham's bosom, located in a section of hell where men of God were awaiting his arrival.
He released the prophets of old, for no man had gone to heaven before Christ.
He was then ressurected and restored to his former glory with YHVH as The Word of God.This is my position and stance on the man we know as Jesus Christ.
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