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Irene, If you know by Him(Jesus) all things were created,bY HIM AND FOR HIM- did he create himself?
Quote (katjo @ Nov. 15 2009,13:38) Irene, If you know by Him(Jesus) all things were created,bY HIM AND FOR HIM- did he create himself?
Hi Katjo,
You ask a good question and I hope you don't mind me taking a stab at it and offering my thoughts. Do you think that there is another choice as to how the Son is from the Father? Maybe there are more than the two categories: created vs. always existing. How about the category “uncreated yet not always existing.”In the created section we would have everything that has come into existence and has a nature different from the creator.
In the always existing section we would have the source of everything that has come into existence.
In the “uncreated yet not always existing” section we would have everything that has the same nature as the creator, i.e. the ONLY begotten Son who would have the same nature as God which would make him a god by nature and if there was just one, that would make Him an ONLY begotten god.
When He was exalted and given all authority, He was exalted from “god” to “God” for all whom He is given authority over. He had possibly gone from god by nature to God by nature AND authority. Just something for you to think about there
God bless, Kathi
I believe it was the act of creation that manifested the Son. It can be likened to water and if all of a sudden you introduced an area of permanent sub zero temperature. The resulting ice is from the water, although it never existed before (in that form). It is my opinion that when the Father created our corporeal universe the part where He intersected our reality it manifested a new expression of God, not equal to the Father but the very image of Him.
Like Kathi I believe the Father gave His beggoten Son all authority and power and He is our God and the Father is His God.
Just my opinion – Wm
Quote (katjo @ Nov. 16 2009,05:38) Irene, If you know by Him(Jesus) all things were created,bY HIM AND FOR HIM- did he create himself?
What does Scriptures tell us
Re. 3:14 …These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the CREATION of God.Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.”
verse 18 And He is the body the Church, who is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have preeminence. He was first in all.
I let you answer your own question. I go by Scripture and not what men wants to believe.
No He did not create Himself, God did, Rev.3:14
Peace and Love IreneIrene, please read my two post on page 23.
Sorry page 22!!
There are plenty of scriptures about Jesus in the Old Testament= Jesus’ birth—Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.” Isaiah 9:6: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Micah 5:2: “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”
Jesus' ministry and death—Zechariah 9:9: “Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.” Psalm 22:16-18: “Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”
prophecy about Jesus in the entire 53rd chapter of Isaiah. Isaiah 53:3-7 is unmistakable: “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.”
The seventy sevens prophecy in Daniel chapter 9 predicted the precise date that Jesus, the Messiah, would be “cut off.” Isaiah 50:6 accurately describes the beating that Jesus endured. Zechariah 12:10 predicts the piercing of the Messiah, which occurred after Jesus died on the cross.
keto That is your interpretation oft that Scripture and not the way it is written. It says that He is both firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the death, which is the New creation, if you want to put it that way.
Col, 1:15 is the firstborn and also is Rev. 3:14 and
Col. 1:18 is firstborn of the death by resurrection of the dead, so that He may have preeminence. Meaning first in all.
IreneThere are plenty of scriptures about Jesus in the Old Testament= Jesus’ birth—Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.” Isaiah 9:6: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Micah 5:2: “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”
Jesus' ministry and death—Zechariah 9:9: “Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.” Psalm 22:16-18: “Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”
prophecy about Jesus in the entire 53rd chapter of Isaiah. Isaiah 53:3-7 is unmistakable: “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.”
The seventy sevens prophecy in Daniel chapter 9 predicted the precise date that Jesus, the Messiah, would be “cut off.” Isaiah 50:6 accurately describes the beating that Jesus endured. Zechariah 12:10 predicts the piercing of the Messiah, which occurred after Jesus died on the cross.
before Jesus took on human form, we are told that he eternally coexisted with his Father, and as God he had all authority. But Philippians 2:6-11 tells us that even though Jesus had existed in the form of God, he “stripped himself” of God’s powers to be born a human being. Yet the same passage tells us that after his resurrection Jesus was restored to his former glory, and someday “every knee will bow to him as Lord.”
Christ could not be both Creator and created; John 1 clearly names Him Creator Colossians 1:15-21
“And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.”first-born of all creation” speaks of Christ’s preexistence. He is not a creature but the eternal Creator (John 1:10).
Quote (katjo @ Nov. 17 2009,05:52) before Jesus took on human form, we are told that he eternally coexisted with his Father, and as God he had all authority. But Philippians 2:6-11 tells us that even though Jesus had existed in the form of God, he “stripped himself” of God’s powers to be born a human being. Yet the same passage tells us that after his resurrection Jesus was restored to his former glory, and someday “every knee will bow to him as Lord.”
Hi Katjo,You are also to bow the knee to the city GOD dwells in. We are all (in essence) the “Holy City”=117 of “GOD The Father”=117.
“GOD The Father” now tabernacles in us all; not just Jesus alone; we all here bend our knee (in a spiritual sense) only to “GOD The Father”.Philip 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the [glory=77] (Christ=77) of “God the Father”.Isaiah 60:13-14: The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together,
to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet;
and they shall call thee, The [Holy City] of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.Psalm 72:6-11 He (YHVH) shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.
The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts (2Chron.9:13) .
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him (GOD is YHVH=117): all nations shall serve him.(John 16:7: Nevertheless I (Jesus=74) tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter (Holy Spirit=151)
will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send the [God Spirit=117] to abide inside of you.) Because, “YHVH is One GOD”=151(John 12:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, except a corn of wheat (Jesus=74 emphasis mine) fall into the ground and die, it abides alone: but if it die, it brings forth much “fruit”=74.)
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblercode.orgJesus, is our lORD GOD!
katjo
Does God have a God? News to me.
God is a title right? For who? Our Lord. I also done some reading on capital letters for Lord. In the original languages of the Bible, capitalizing pronouns referring to God was not an issue. In Hebrew, there was no such thing as upper-case and lower-case letters. There was simply an alphabet, no capital letters at all. In Greek, there were capital (upper-case) letters and lower-case letters. However, in all of the earliest copies of the Greek New Testament, the text is written in all capital letters. When God inspired the human authors of Scripture to write His Word, He did not lead them to give any special attention to pronouns that refer to Him.
katjo
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