Jesus Christ is God

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

So you admit that your template is Greek thinking. Created and non-created. No wonder you force Jesus as God. Paul knowing the pride of the Greeks and their philosophy preached Jesus crucified, an offence to them. So it is that I say unto you, Jesus Christ of Nazareth died for your sins and was raised up to the right hand of God. He now interceeds for us to God. He is our High Priest.

t8

I dont care about greek thinking.

I believe in Creator and created there is nothing else is there?

I dont force anythiing. I simply believe the scriptures.

Jn 1:
3 All things were made by him; and without him was **not any thing made that was made**.

Col 1:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 11 2006,21:40)

I believe in Creator and created there is nothing else is there?

Yes.

[NickHassan]

Hi w
The amazing Monogenes Son, the primary instrument of the work of God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Yes. There is God who is. There is creation, i.e., that which is made by God through Christ. There is that which is begotten of God and not made through Christ. There is only one begotten of the Father who is full of grace and truth. He is the firstborn over all creation and the express image of God. He has preeminence in all things.

t8

So I take by this that you mean that Jesus the Word had a beginning?

[Proclaimer]

I can only say for certain what scripture says:

God is the Father of Jesus

God gave Jesus life and Jesus can impart that life

Jesus is a divine being, but not the Divine being. In other words he has divine nature but emptied himself for a time

Jesus was the Word/Logos

The logos is an attribute of God but God expressed his logos so that the Logos was with God as another.

The Logos became flesh and we know him as Yeshua who is the son OF God

That God is the Father and he is the Father and God of the son and us

That the son came from God

Now to say that Jesus had a beginning is to suppose that he was born with creation if time is a created thing that is.
Jesus existed before time and therefore saying that he had a beginning may relegate him to a created being of which he most certainly is not.

In the beginning there was the Word and the Word was WITH God.

So to say that he had a beginning is perhaps not an appropriate question for a being who is not created but begotten.

I know this. The son came from God. God is the source, and so Christ is the image.

We know that all images have a source. I am saying that Christ is the image not the source.

If you interpret that as the Word that was with God had a beginning or didn't have a beginning, then that may be completely irrelevant.

We just know that God is the source and Christ his image. Even before creation he existed, therefore it may be inappropriate to apply created terminology.

I prefer to stick with scripture and learn from there without using the crutches of philosophy to hold up that which is beyond my understanding.

I do not claim to have all the answers. but I know scripture is true and I wish not to deviate or contradict scripture.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

2 Corinthians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

Matthew 3:17
“And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased”

Luke 4:41
Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.

Philippians 2:8-11
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Ephesians 1:22
And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,

Revelation 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Hebrews 5:8-10
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

John 5:30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Mark 10:17-18
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he
asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good, except God alone.

Colossians 1:15-17
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 11 2006,01:16)

Hi m42, You say “Rev 19 verse 13 is no proof of Jesus being from the beginning. I can interpret is as His name is the revelation of the intentions and motives of God. No problem. The very word Begotten means began. To believe in an eternal Jesus follows some of the same mistakes as the trinitarians. So the Logos was with God from the beginning. So God had a plan and His motives and intentions were with him and never changed from the beginning.” The Word was with God in the beginning. That does not say the Word had no beginning. Scripture shows he did have a beginning as all sons do[ps2]. Since he is the Monogenes Son who was sent into the world[1Jn 4], and he is the Christ that came in the flesh[ 2Jn, 1Jn4] the terms are interchangeable. Rev 19 ” 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. “ Is this not King Jesus, the Word at the beginning and at the endtimes? God spoke His Son, the Word, into existence. Words are spoken and do not remain within the speaker.

Since he is the Monogenes Son who was sent into the world[1Jn 4], and he is the Christ that came in the flesh[ 2Jn, 1Jn4] the terms are interchangeable.

Very well if Jesus and word are interchangable then that should also hold true thru the entire cannon of scripture. At least it should hold true in the same book, written by the same author.

John 2/22
So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the Jesus (Logos) which Jesus had spoken.

4/39
From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the Jesus (logos) of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.”

4/50
Jesus said to him, “Go; your son lives.” The man believed the Jesus (logos) that Jesus spoke to him and started off.

12/48 (Jesus is speaking)
He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the Jesus (logos) I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

It makes no sence. These are but a few of hundreds of times Logos is used in the New Testament. Do you intend to replace every time it is used with the name Jesus? Do you intend to form a completely different definition not in line with the general context of scripture?
According to your statements Jesus = word in some cases and does not equal it in others. What determines which definition to use? Could it be a doctrine? So when you read the term “word” in scripture do you determine by virtue of your doctrine whether to define it as being literaly Jesus or the biblical definition of a statement, idea, motive or intent?

Do you believe it is legitimate to derive one definition for some scriptures and another for others? Is that honest?

[Cult Buster]

There seems chronic dyslexia happening here.
Can't you understand!

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and  THE WORD WAS GOD.

THE WORD WAS GOD    THE WORD WAS GOD    THE WORD WAS GOD     THE WORD WAS GOD     (Repetition may help with your dyslexia)

John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…

Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Zechariah 7:11  But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.    

[sscott]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 11 2006,00:23)

Quote As it is written, “For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him”. Hi Sscott Where is this written?

Hi WorshippingJesus,

I copied it from the heaven.net website….from the Trinity Article. Sorry…I thought I made that clear.

From:

Tatian (165 A.D)

[sscott]

Quote (Cult Buster @ Dec. 11 2006,04:52)

There seems chronic dyslexia happening here. Can't you understand! John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. THE WORD WAS GOD THE WORD WAS GOD THE WORD WAS GOD THE WORD WAS GOD (Repetition may help with your dyslexia) John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us… Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Zechariah 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.

Is that what you say when you don't have a rebuttle or cannot refute scripture? Sounds kinda canned.

If you can explain the scriptures I posted then I would be glad to listen to you. If you can only ignore the scriptures posted and quote other scriptures then you might as well just go talk to a wall.

This is what I find happens when people cannot explain scriptures that seem to contradict what they believe is true. Instead of searching it out they just quote some other “proof text” to back up their doctrine. It's debating at such an immature level that I would hardly call it debating or dialog. It's rather fruitless.

[Cult Buster]

sscott

Quote

If you can explain the scriptures I posted then I would be glad to listen to you.  If you can only ignore the scriptures posted and quote other scriptures then you might as well just go talk to a wall.

As I mentioned to you before I will address your concerns.
Now you explain Isaiha 9:6

Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[sscott]

Quote (Cult Buster @ Dec. 11 2006,06:16)

sscott Quote If you can explain the scriptures I posted then I would be glad to listen to you. If you can only ignore the scriptures posted and quote other scriptures then you might as well just go talk to a wall. As I mentioned to you before I will address your concerns. Now you explain Isaiha 9:6 Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

I addressed it in the other thread. Still waiting on your reply in this one.

Thanks,

sscott

[Cult Buster]

sscott.

I have considered those verses and to be honest they do not prove your point.

“for I proceeded forth and came from God;”
“I came out from God.”
”I came out from thee.”

I believe that you are reading something that isn’t there perhaps because of your own Unitarian bias.

It simply means that Christ was with The Father or Godhead before He left for His mission to Earth. He came out from the company of the Father or the Godhead. He proceeded forth from the company of God.

There has on this forum been much confusion between Christ’s mission or “office” as Messiah and that of His substance which is The Eternal God.

When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God. He simply put aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God.

Heb 2:14  Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

He had to overcome Satan while living as a man. Christ did not come to earth to show what a God can do, but what  man can do when he depends on God for power. He succeeded where Adam failed.

Heb 2:16  For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Re. that Hippolytus (ca. 230 A.D) article. Interesting but I would rather take my doctrine from scripture.

I hope that that I have addressed all of your points this time.

Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Posted: Dec. 11 2006,11:54   ——————————————————————————– sscott. I have considered those verses and to be honest they do not prove your point. “for I proceeded forth and came from God;” “I came out from God.” ”I came out from thee.” I believe that you are reading something that isn’t there perhaps because of your own Unitarian bias. It simply means that Christ was with The Father or Godhead before He left for His mission to Earth. He came out from the company of the Father or the Godhead. He proceeded forth from the company of God. There has on this forum been much confusion between Christ’s mission or “office” as Messiah and that of His substance which is The Eternal God. When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God. He simply put aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God. Heb 2:14  Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; He had to overcome Satan while living as a man. Christ did not come to earth to show what a God can do, but what  man can do when he depends on God for power. He succeeded where Adam failed. Heb 2:16  For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Heb 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Re. that Hippolytus (ca. 230 A.D) article. Interesting but I would rather take my doctrine from scripture. I hope that that I have addressed all of your points this time. Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Excellent CB!

[sscott]

Quote (Cult Buster @ Dec. 11 2006,11:54)

sscott. I have considered those verses and to be honest they do not prove your point. “for I proceeded forth and came from God;” “I came out from God.” ”I came out from thee.” I believe that you are reading something that isn’t there perhaps because of your own Unitarian bias. It simply means that Christ was with The Father or Godhead before He left for His mission to Earth. He came out from the company of the Father or the Godhead. He proceeded forth from the company of God. There has on this forum been much confusion between Christ’s mission or “office” as Messiah and that of His substance which is The Eternal God. When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God. He simply put aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God. Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; He had to overcome Satan while living as a man. Christ did not come to earth to show what a God can do, but what man can do when he depends on God for power. He succeeded where Adam failed. Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Re. that Hippolytus (ca. 230 A.D) article. Interesting but I would rather take my doctrine from scripture. I hope that that I have addressed all of your points this time. Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Thanks. I'm going to thing about this today and post tonight when I get home.

Every blessings,

sscott

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
You say
“It simply means that Christ was with The Father or Godhead before He left for His mission to Earth. He came out from the company of the Father or the Godhead. He proceeded forth from the company of God.

There has on this forum been much confusion between Christ’s mission or “office” as Messiah and that of His substance which is The Eternal God.”

Now who is confused here?

You say Christ proceeded from God and was in the company of God, and I agree he was with God… and yet you say he is the Eternal God he is in company with?

No.

He is the SON of God.

[music4two]

Quote (Cult Buster @ Dec. 11 2006,04:52)

There seems chronic dyslexia happening here. Can't you understand! John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and  THE WORD WAS GOD. THE WORD WAS GOD    THE WORD WAS GOD    THE WORD WAS GOD     THE WORD WAS GOD     (Repetition may help with your dyslexia) John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us… Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Zechariah 7:11  But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.

That is possibly the most silly coment I have ever seen. You refuse to deal with the true definition of the term “Word” but instead rattle off the English translation as if John wrote in English. Get a Clue!!!!!

[Proclaimer]

Quote (sscott @ Dec. 12 2006,00:03)

This is what I find happens when people cannot explain scriptures that seem to contradict what they believe is true. Instead of searching it out they just quote some other “proof text” to back up their doctrine. It's debating at such an immature level that I would hardly call it debating or dialog. It's rather fruitless.

Hi sscott.

I am glad that I am not the only one who thinks this.

[NickHassan]

Hi T8,
We are debating with people who “know in their heart of hearts” that they are right.
They cannot prove it, or fully explain it, but they KNOW they are right.
We were all like that till the Spirit taught us.

[Proclaimer]

True. They believe in the Trinity that much that not even scripture will talk them out of it.

When I believed in the Trinity doctrine myself, I believed it with little understanding. But the Spirit led me to test all things regarding my faith and that one came up wanting.

So I guess that if what I know now was presented to me back then, I am sure that I would have listened seriously. Especially if scriptures such as Ephesians 4:4-6 & 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 were presented to me. How can you argue with scripture.

I was already aware that there was something seriously wrong with denominations and the state of Christianity, so I would have been open enough to challenge something that is considered foundational, knowing that the majority are often wrong .

Of course I haven't seen many people that are willing to be like the Bereans and challenge all things to see if they are written, and I have seen a lot of pride and people with assumptions who are sure that they are right. This attitude of course explains why pockets of different religions exist in different parts of the world. They are brought up with something and find it very hard to let it go. That is what mens traditions are about and we even see in the Book of Revelation that even in the last days, men do not repent from worhipping idols.

However if men generally sought out the truth, then the Middle East wouldn't be predominately Muslim, the Americas – Catholic, and Christians – Trinitarians.

But thanks be to God that there are people who seek the truth even when the majority do not.

Such men are lights in a dark sky and diamonds embedded into bedrock.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
Then this should not surprise us either.
rev 13
” 4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. “

because of
2thess 2
” 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. “

The Word is the lifeline.
No one wants it.

[Author]

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