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Quote (sscott @ Dec. 06 2006,06:39) Quote (Cult Buster @ Dec. 06 2006,06:30) Quite often when people try to demote their God Christ to that of a created being, they confuse Christ's mission as Messiah with His substance. His substance being God Himself. There is abundant scriture to prove this as we have already seen. His mission was to temporarily lay aside His own divine power and assume the form of a man, and to defeat Satan while living as a man. They quote “proof texts” taken in the context of His incarnation and then distort the scriptures to try to prove their Arian beliefs.
Christ lived fully as a man because He had to live and overcome as a man relying on God for power like we must also do; but He was still God.
During His incarnation He did not exercise His divinity for His own advantage, but resisted temptation in the form of a man.
It's that simple!
Hi Cult Buster,Maybe you could answer a few questions I have. The first one is..if God is a Trinity..one being three persons, How could God forsake Himself on the cross? If the Father forsook the Son and they are one being then God forsook Himself which is impossible. Which would also mean that God poured out His wrath on Himself? Right?
Sscott, these are excellent question to put to a modalist…Hi sscott,
The one guaranteed surety for the captain of our salvation and us who follow is that the Spirit will not ever leave him or us for eternity.Quote (Cult Buster @ Dec. 06 2006,06:30) Quite often when people try to demote their God Christ to that of a created being, they confuse Christ's mission as Messiah with His substance. His substance being God Himself. There is abundant scriture to prove this as we have already seen. His mission was to temporarily lay aside His own divine power and assume the form of a man, and to defeat Satan while living as a man. They quote “proof texts” taken in the context of His incarnation and then distort the scriptures to try to prove their Arian beliefs.
Christ lived fully as a man because He had to live and overcome as a man relying on God for power like we must also do; but He was still God.
During His incarnation He did not exercise His divinity for His own advantage, but resisted temptation in the form of a man.
It's that simple!
Quite often when people try to demote their God Christ to that of a created being, they confuse Christ's mission as Messiah with His substance. His substance being God Himself.In 325 AD – Constantine convenes the Council of Nicaea in order to develop a statement of faith that can unify the Catholic Church and therefore his empire. The Nicene Creed is written, declaring that “the Father and the Son are of the same substance” (homoousios)
Of course Constantine was a sun worshiper and a pagan. Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions and personally proposed the crucial formula expressing the relationship of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, `of one substance with the Father'. Constantine pushed thru his concepts by threats of banishment and death.
THERE IS A GOOD TEACHER OF DOCTRINE.Quite often people demote God's most precious creation (man). The very reason for all of creation is demoted to support ther doctrine. By lessening the worth on humanity you deminish what Christ gave His life for.
There is abundant scriture to prove this as we have already seen. His mission was to temporarily lay aside His own divine power and assume the form of a man, and to defeat Satan while living as a man.
Talk about demoting God!!! Saying he is changable and can lessen what he is by becoming a man is absolutely unscriptural.
God cannot change who he is, nor can Jesus —
Hebrews 13:8
8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever
Mal 3/6
6″For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
They quote “proof texts” taken in the context of His incarnation and then distort the scriptures to try to prove their Arian beliefs.
DISTORTION? I am not the one using unscriptural terms like “incarnation” to justify my stand.
Secondly I am not l judging people or accusing them of certain ideologies. Tell me, is this a fruit of your doctrinal stand? Interesting fruit!
Christ lived fully as a man because He had to live and overcome as a man relying on God for power like we must also do; but He was still God.
God cannot be tempted. Jesus can be, and was. These two attributes are opposites and cannot exist within one being.
Jesus is human and therefor can fail. God cannot fail in anything He attempts. Again opposite.
God is all powerfull. Humanity is not. Jesus is human therefore not all powerfull. Opposites!
There is a clear pattern here. The attributes of God and Man cannot exist within one being. To state otherwise is not logical. Another myth and illusion.
During His incarnation He did not exercise His divinity for His own advantage, but resisted temptation in the form of a man.
Again with the non scriptural term “incarnation”. You might as well say “During His gobledegook He did not exercise His divinity for His own advantage, but resisted temptation in the form of a man.”
You speak of honesty and yet use made up unscriptural words to prove or explain your doctrine. I would hope you would be more concerned about adding concepts or conceptual words to scripture to support pet doctrines. Try reading Revelation 22/18Hi 94,
Vain man sees himself as important just because God has elected to rescue us. We are less than any heavenly created being and did not deserve salvation. We are as grass or worms and have no rights before God Who simply chose to demonstrate His love and mercy towards us for His own reasons, and not because we were His greatest creation. We look at scripture and see man being highlighted but that does not make us important.Earthly creation was the last of God's glorious works and observed by His heavenly sons. God uses the vessel of His Son and even us to purge all of heaven and earth of evil, to glorify the light and banish the darkness that had infiltrated even His heavenly kingdom, and because of His Son and His choice we can enjoy all the eternal advantages of that work and join the family of God forever.
But as filthy, thieving prodigal sons it is not because we deserve such extraordinary mercy.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 06 2006,18:04) Hi 94,
Vain man sees himself as important just because God has elected to rescue us. We are less than any heavenly created being and did not deserve salvation. We are as grass or worms and have no rights before God Who simply chose to demonstrate His love and mercy towards us for His own reasons, and not because we were His greatest creation. We look at scripture and see man being highlighted but that does not make us important.Earthly creation was the last of God's glorious works and observed by His heavenly sons. God uses the vessel of His Son and even us to purge all of heaven and earth of evil, to glorify the light and banish the darkness that had infiltrated even His heavenly kingdom, and because of His Son and His choice we can enjoy all the eternal advantages of that work and join the family of God forever.
But as filthy, thieving prodigal sons it is not because we deserve such extraordinary mercy.
You make out man to be garbage. It sounds like Calvinism raising it’s ugly head.Again you miss the point of functionality. How does your belief of man being worthless function in God’s plan? When God created the world, He said it was good. When He created man, He said it was VERY good. The entire history of God’s creation is wrapped up in mankind. The whole purpose of God’s creation is man. For thousands of years God has worked with man. Does God waste His time on worthless beings? You may believe if you like that you are worthless, but I prefer to see myself by the light of God’s favor on me.
Jesus did not die to redeem a hunk of rock or a stalk of corn. He died to redeem man. Including me. While I was yet a sinner Jesus died for me. That gives me worth in God’s economy before I even knew Him.
God did not do miracles for anything other then man.
Nothing in God’s creation, except man, did God make covenant agreements.
Nothing else in God’s creation was given life by the “breath of God”.
Nothing else in creation is the fullfilled temple of the Holy Spirit or breath.
Nothing else in God’s creation is made capable of resurection.
Nothing else in God’s creation has the calling and potential of being Holy.
Nothing else in God’s creation is the focus of the entire cannon of scripture.
And most of all. If Man is garbage, then Christ sacrificed his life for worthless junk. This totally demishes the price paid by Jesus.
Hi m42,
What do we have that God needs?
What can we offer Him?
What does He owe us?
NOTHING.
vanity , vanity , all is vanity.
Jb 25
“Job 25:6
How much less man, that maggot,And the son of man, that worm!”1Peter 1
” 24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: “Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 06 2006,23:27) Hi m42,
What do we have that God needs?
What can we offer Him?
What does He owe us?
NOTHING.
vanity , vanity , all is vanity.
Jb 25
“Job 25:6
How much less man, that maggot,And the son of man, that worm!”1Peter 1
” 24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: “
Ina a word? God wants beings to be with Him. His plan is to have sons (and daughters) Eternal beings that can become one with Him.Hi m42,
Only the extraordinary grace of a forgiving Dad and the royal robe of His son covering our filthy rags makes that possible.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Dec. 06 2006,02:31) Quote (sscott @ Dec. 06 2006,06:39) Quote (Cult Buster @ Dec. 06 2006,06:30) Quite often when people try to demote their God Christ to that of a created being, they confuse Christ's mission as Messiah with His substance. His substance being God Himself. There is abundant scriture to prove this as we have already seen. His mission was to temporarily lay aside His own divine power and assume the form of a man, and to defeat Satan while living as a man. They quote “proof texts” taken in the context of His incarnation and then distort the scriptures to try to prove their Arian beliefs.
Christ lived fully as a man because He had to live and overcome as a man relying on God for power like we must also do; but He was still God.
During His incarnation He did not exercise His divinity for His own advantage, but resisted temptation in the form of a man.
It's that simple!
Hi Cult Buster,Maybe you could answer a few questions I have. The first one is..if God is a Trinity..one being three persons, How could God forsake Himself on the cross? If the Father forsook the Son and they are one being then God forsook Himself which is impossible. Which would also mean that God poured out His wrath on Himself? Right?
Sscott, these are excellent question to put to a modalist…
Hey Is 1:18,How's life? You seem as trinitarian as ever!
I noticed your post and wanted to ask you:
Why do you say that sscott's questions are only appropriate for a modalist? Do you not refer to the “one” god that you worship with singular pronouns such as “he”, “him”, or “himself”? Or, is it your position that whenever “God” is referred to as a “He” or a “Him” that it only indicates a single person?
In other words, can the trinity be referred to using singular pronouns such as “I”, “me”, “he”, “him”, etc.? If they can, I don't see what is wrong with sscott's questions being put to a trinitarian. Do you?
For a few weeks now I have attempted to secure discussion on the functionality of doctrines under discussion. It seems no one is willing to discuss that aspect of the subject. It seems that most only want to have mental exercise on philosophies of mental ascension that masquerade as teaching.
Teaching as the Hebrews (including Jesus) practiced had little to do with “Doctrine” as we know it today.
The Hebrew word “Torah” is usually translated into the English word “Law”. Because of this translation there is a great misunderstanding of what “Torah” truly is. “TORAH IS NOT LAW”. When we use the word “law” we assume a certain meaning and concept of the word that is not present in the Hebrew Scriptures.
The purpose of a parents Torah is to teach and bring the children to maturity. If the Torah is violated out of disrespect or defiant disobedience, the child is punished. If the child desires to follow the instructions out of a loving obedience but falls short of the expectations, the child is commended for the effort and counseled on how to perform the instructions better the next time. Unlike Torah, law is a set of rules from a government or authority and binding on a community. Violation of the rules require punishment. With this type of law, there is no room for teaching, either the law was broken with the penalty of punishment or it was not broken.
The Torah was a set of teachings on wisdom designed to help the child live, prosper and succeed in this world as a son. Teachings designed to develop proper character and heart toward God and man. God, as our heavenly Father, gives his children his Torah in the same manner and for the same reasons. God’s teachings or doctrines are all designed with the welfare of His children in mind. They are designed to further His purpose to raise up children with His character. The so-called teachings or “Doctrines” of today must function as the Torah did in Biblical times or they are not God’s teachings..
There is an unfortunate belief by many Christians that if a person understands a teaching intellectually they posses it spiritually. This is simply hog wash. A mental understanding of the mind is not the same as an experiential understanding of the spirit and heart. Truthfully many Christians are so unfamiliar with spiritual understanding they do not even seek it. So involved are they in learning some other mental exercise they leave the functionality and true understanding far behind.
Many operate within a box of historical dogma without ever considering if what they have been taught really makes any sense or if it actually produces good fruit in their lives. For some it is a fear of pushing the outside of the envelope. They fear being on the outside of the normal excepted Christianity. They do not seem to see that the “norm” as it is produced in most churches today is dead and has been for centuries. For others it is a convient escape from facing real teaching and the vulnerability it requires. Biblical Torah forces us to deal with the real motives and intentions of the heart rather then just a mental exercise of facts and figures.
We of modern cultures have a difficult time thinking as the Hebrews of Biblical times. Since the writers of scripture were all Hebrew, it is of vast importance that we understand how they thought in order to truly understand what they wrote. We have been raised to think in terms of Greek philosophy and mental priorities. Greek philosophy relates God to man by way of mental creeds, disciplines, and dogmas. Hebrews relate to God by way of experiences.
A Greek will see God by thinking about a list of attributes. He sees himself and his world as an outsider and separate from God. He sees God as he mentally understands Him. He describes God via intellectual data. Ask a Greek thinker about the love of God, he says, “God is love”. Simpler yet? Ask a Greek thinker to describe a pencil – “it is yellow and ten inches long.”
A Hebrew sees God as an integral part of everything he is and does. As an intregral part of the world around him. A Hebrew sees God as he experiences Him. He describes God via relationship with Him. Ask a Hebrew about the love of God, he says, “God loves me.” Simple again? Ask a Hebrew to describe a pencil – “I write with it.”
When one really examines Biblical teaching, it is not about understanding some metaphysical, transcendental mystical concept. True teaching as displayed by Jesus had a very simple purpose. His purpose was to teach us how to live Godly lives in accordance with the will of God. His life is the example and pattern for us to follow.
In most cases when scripture speaks about an attribute of God it is tied in with an understanding that must be seen through spiritual eyes. An understanding that instructs us on how to become a son of God. An instruction that requires an experiential action. For example:
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.If all we had were the first four words of this verse we could debate for centuries about the mystical qualities of God’s spiritual nature. Fortunately we have the remainder. In the rest of the verse God declares why it is important for us to know that He is a Spirit. In order for us to have communion with Him we must do so in a manner that is effective in a spiritual world. Only after we do this can we hope to understand truth as in teaching or doctrine.
Allow me to develop what it means to deal in spiritual realms. The worlds of Greek philosophy have done great harm to the meanings of a spiritual life. One of the most damaging of these philosophies is dualism. This teaching promotes a distinct separation between the spiritual realm and the natural realm. It teaches that only the transcendental realm of the Spirit has merit while denouncing the natural realm as evil or of a lower nature. The Hebrews never saw the world in such a manner. They see the world both physical and spiritual as inseparable and all part of the Kingdom of God. They believed that God reveals and teaches us through the physical, natural realm. It is on this physical natural earth that we are perfected and made into sons. It is by walking in the Kingdom of God ON THIS EARTH, that we become like Christ.
Jesus taught that the Kingdom of God was present on Earth 2000 years ago.
Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.Again Jesus proclaims the Kingdom of God is at hand.
Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.Everything we do in the physical realm has an impact in the spiritual realm and vice versa.
The purpose of God’s creation was to raise up sons and daughters to himself. Children with the same characteristics as Him. This is the purpose for God revealing himself in the natural physical realm in the person of Jesus Christ. So that we might have a perfect example of what it is like to have the character of God in a human being. This again brings us to the question of the function of certain teachings.
Discussions on the nature of God and His attributes should also be discussed with the goal of function toward becoming Christlike. By comparison, mental understanding is a waste of time. We become teachers of the law rather then examples of Christ’s characteristics. Any so-called spiritual teaching that detracts from the goal of becoming like Christ or makes it harder to accomplish should be at least questioned if not avoided.
When discussing the nature of Jesus Christ, one must ask certain questions.
1. Does the teaching line up with the overall character of God.
God is a righteous judge.
Genesis 18:25
“Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the
Judge of all the earth deal justly?”Does it seem, plausible or fair that a righteous judge would send a God to earth to be an example for man and then judge man according to standards set by this God. To whatever degree Jesus is a God to that same degree can we never be like Him. If Jesus has a dual nature (fully God and fully man) then we must constantly questions every act He did to ascertain whether He did it as God or man. Unless the scripture is very specific in announcing from which nature He is now acting, we are left with speculation on the vast majority of Christ’s actions. How can we effectively follow in the foot steps of speculation? In what way does His supposed “Dual Nature” function to help us become more like him?
2. Does the teaching in question make any rational sense?
Are the attributes of God and humanity capable of existing in the same creature?
Obviously the physical attributes are not compatible. God is a Spirit and man is flesh and blood. God is omnipresent while man is not.
How about non physical characteristics? God is infallible, man is not. God cannot be tempted, man can and is. God is omniscient, man is not. God is all powerful, man is not.
To say these attributes exist in one being is like saying black is equal to white, that opposites are equal. This is a logical impossibility.3. Can God change His own nature?
When Moses ask God to tell him who he was God simply replied EYAH ASHER EYAH, (Heb) I Am that I Am. He did not say I am a God today but in a few thousand years I will change one of my persons into a man.
God cannot change who he is, nor can Jesus —Hebrews 13:8
“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever”Mal 3:6
“For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.I am quite aware that some will begin quoting verse after verse to counter what I have said here. We can all claim that the other is misquoting or mistranslating scripture till the cows come home. It could take years to dissect each scripture in question. The only real test, that can be accomplished in a reasonable time in this format, is that of functionality.
God (whether Triune or singular) and Jesus (either dual natured, completely God or completely man)had a plan for man. That plan was to raise up sons like himself in character. The purpose of creation, the plan of salvation, and the coming of Jesus Christ as our pattern all center around this single goal. Because God is a God of reason and we are made in His image, His revelation of His nature to us must also follow reason. His pattern example of His son should be one we can actually imitate. His teachings must function in such a way as to foster in us the characteristics of Christ.
We must all honestly question ourselves if what we teach or believe actually has a function and if so what is that function producing?
Hi WhatIsTrue .
Yes I have noticed that Trinitarians are rather confused when they pray to their one God and say Dear Father, thank you Jesus and Holy Spirit. I wonder why they use the words “Him”, “He” etc.
They should use Dear God “How are you all”. If they really believe their doctrine. When they refer to their God, should they not say “they”, “them” if they adhere to their own teaching?
The ironic thing about this is the Trinitarians here accuse us of believing in more than one God. It's like the log in their own eye makes them see specks in the eyes of others.
God is one. God is the God and Father of Jesus Christ and us. This God is the God of Jesus when he walked the earth and he is the God of Jesus now in Heaven. This God is the true God and the Most High God. He is one identity, not three identities.
We teach one God. But others who come here teach a triune God. How did the belief in one God change to a triune God. Well history shows us and Paul warned about deceptions and said they would happen.
Hi M42,
One of the problems is that men bring here their idols and then try to relate the teaching about God to their idols. We spend much of our time trying to explain who God is to people who are not interested having already decided God is a trinity or oneness or denominational idol. God has never changed and Jesus, the Son of God, came to enlarge our view of Him, not change Him.Jesus is the Son of God, not God in flesh.
He is a vessel for God filled at the Jordan.
We must discern his words according to the specific audience he was speaking to. He spoke to Jews about the Law but came to establish a kingdom beyond that Law.
We must be reborn from above not waste our time attempting to imitate Christ in our own “strength”.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 07 2006,21:58) Hi M42,
One of the problems is that men bring here their idols and then try to relate the teaching about God to their idols. We spend much of our time trying to explain who God is to people who are not interested having already decided God is a trinity or oneness or denominational idol. God has never changed and Jesus, the Son of God, came to enlarge our view of Him, not change Him.Jesus is the Son of God, not God in flesh.
He is a vessel for God filled at the Jordan.
We must discern his words according to the specific audience he was speaking to. He spoke to Jews about the Law but came to establish a kingdom beyond that Law.
We must be reborn from above not waste our time attempting to imitate Christ in our own “strength”.
Hello Nick,
I prefer to not take as agressive or judgemental a stance toward those who believe in the Trinity doctrine. As I said before, the very nature of the Christian belief takes many into a position where they must defend their doctrine out of fear. In some cases they believe they have the responsibility of defending God. (as if He needs defending)There are no clear scriptures that demand believing in the Trinity, oneness or any other doctrine of the Godhead to be saved. I see nothing in scripture that demands anything other then believing that Jesus physically raised from the dead.
I realize I have not been on here long, I do not remember seeing your take on the nature of Christ and it's functionality. I would be interested to know what you believe and how that doctrinal stand functions to make you more like Christ.
Hi m42,
What truths do we build on?Faith is one.
Faith towards God.
Heb 6
“1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”
Hebrews 11:6
“And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.”Moses “saw God” by faith and his faith was rewarded.
” 24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.”
Others suffered greatly unto death for their faith in God.
Heb 11
“33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”
Were all these sufferings in vain because these did not understand the “new discovery” that God is a trinity?
Or is the trinity doctrine an insult to these men of God who suffered and died for God, the Father of Jesus?
Through Jesus in faith and obedience we can draw near to God.
Heb 10
” 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21And having an high priest over the house of God;
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.”
23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) “
To approach God is a terrifying prospect.
Heb 12
” 18For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,19And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
We should not imagine God is as a man like Jesus and us just because He revealed Himself through His Son by His Spirit. God is greater than His Son. But his Son made it possible to know and be loved and forgiven by the awesome Father God.
But because of Jesus, who is with God, we can draw now near to the Holy Of Holies of God through of His servant/priest Jesus.
So the God we draw near to is not the one whose temple veil of flesh was torn to allow us to approach and who remains for us as a priest to God. He is the mediator and the intercessor for us with our awesome God.
So the Jailor of Acts 16 came suddenly through desperation to believe in God and he sought out Paul and Silas and asked them the way of salvation.
“29Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house. “
So how can people know God and believe on Him so they can respond to the gospel of life in Jesus Christ if they are told Jesus is that God? If so there is no such thing as faith in the Father God and belief also in Jesus but only belief in a amalgam God. Then how can men be saved if they do not understand these absolute basics? What value is there in preaching the kingdom to those who do not first know of the Father God? That is the gospel of salvation in Christ and it nmust be built on faith in Father God.
Rom 10
” 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.”
Satan has very successfully muddied the waters confusing men so they lose true faith in Father God and cannot know as separate in true faith the Son of God who is the way to God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 09 2006,18:24) Hi m42,
What truths do we build on?Faith is one.
Faith towards God.
Heb 6
“1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”
Hebrews 11:6
“And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.”Moses “saw God” by faith and his faith was rewarded.
” 24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.”
Others suffered greatly unto death for their faith in God.
Heb 11
“33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”
Were all these sufferings in vain because these did not understand the “new discovery” that God is a trinity?
Or is the trinity doctrine an insult to these men of God who suffered and died for God, the Father of Jesus?
Through Jesus in faith and obedience we can draw near to God.
Heb 10
” 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21And having an high priest over the house of God;
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.”
23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) “
To approach God is a terrifying prospect.
Heb 12
” 18For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,19And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
We should not imagine God is as a man like Jesus and us just because He revealed Himself through His Son by His Spirit. God is greater than His Son. But his Son made it possible to know and be loved and forgiven by the awesome Father God.
But because of Jesus, who is with God, we can draw now near to the Holy Of Holies of God through of His servant/priest Jesus.
So the God we draw near to is not the one whose temple veil of flesh was torn to allow us to approach and who remains for us as a priest to God. He is the mediator and the intercessor for us with our awesome God.
So the Jailor of Acts 16 came suddenly through desperation to believe in God and he sought out Paul and Silas and asked them the way of salvation.
“29Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house. “
So how can people know God and believe on Him so they can respond to the gospel of life in Jesus Christ if they are told Jesus is that God? If so there is no such thing as faith in the Father God and belief also in Jesus but only belief in a amalgam God. Then how can men be saved if they do not understand these absolute basics? What value is there in preaching the kingdom to those who do not first know of the Father God? That is the gospel of salvation in Christ and it nmust be built on faith in Father God.
Rom 10
” 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.”
Satan has very successfully muddied the waters confusing men so they lose true faith in Father God and cannot know as separate in true faith the Son of God who is the way to God.
Thanks nick,
Perhaps I was not clear in my question. What do you believe about the natur of Christ. Do you believe him to be a man as other men in nature? Is he fully human? Do you believe He has a dual nature (100%God and 100% man)?Is jesus a complete human?
Is Jesus an empty shell of flesh for God to inhabit?
Hi m42,
Acts 2
“Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:”“Acts 13:23
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:”
Acts 13:38
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Acts 17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Romans 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Romans 1:3
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;No doubt Jesus is a man from the seed of David.
He can be spoken of according to the flesh.
But he is a being of divine origins, the monogenes Son, who was with God who had glory of his own and this was seen and testified to by John and Peter.
Jn 1.14
” 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”2Peter 1
” 16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”
A man, a glorious vessel who had a will and a spirit of his own and gave up his glory for our shame, and who allowed God to lead him, speak and work through him, in absolute unity.
sscott posted
Quote Hi Cult Buster, Maybe you could answer a few questions I have. The first one is..if God is a Trinity..one being three persons, How could God forsake Himself on the cross? If the Father forsook the Son and they are one being then God forsook Himself which is impossible. Which would also mean that God poured out His wrath on Himself? Right?
Wrong!
God (Elohiym) is not a trinity but a Godhead.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God (Elohiym-plural) created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:26 And God (Elohiym-plural) said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness:H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhîym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God;The “trinity” is not the same as the Godhead. This is where many on this forum are getting confused
AS we have proven over and over again on this forum there are three divine Persons comprising the Godhead (Elohiym). Each a separate Being and each God in His own right.
This is not the trinity doctrine taught by the Catholic church.
Catholicism teaches that there was one God the Father, and out of him came the Son, and out of them both came the Holy Spirit. One god in three; three gods in one blend.This is not Biblical nor is the Arian doctrine propagated by many on this forum
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD (Y'hovah) our God (Elohiym-plural) is one LORD (Y'hovah):
Zec 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
Hi CB,
You say
“God (Elohiym) is not a trinity but a Godhead.”Acts 17:29
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.So these are the three times the word GODHEAD appears in the KJV.
All are translated from different greek words.
It is already looking to be a weak argument.
So what is a godhead?
a Committee?
So the godhead dwells in Jesus.
So he cannot be part of that which DWELLS in him can he?
I hope that you are not willfully blind NH.
Open your eyes this time around.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God (Elohiym-plural) created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:26 And God (Elohiym-plural) said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness:H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhîym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God;Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD (Y'hovah) our God (Elohiym-plural) is one LORD (Y'hovah):
Zec 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
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