- This topic has 523 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 17 years, 8 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote There were three main arguments posited by the creed makers that attended the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD that personalized God's holy pneuma. The allusions by Jesus to the sending by him of the “Advisor” in John 14-16, the “baptismal family” of Matthew 28:18, and the “Spirit” verses found in Romans 8:26-27. We will look at all of them in detail but by far the most important to them are the “Advisor” verses of John.
Most remain unaware that in the New Testament times, God's holy pneuma and Jesus are sometimes used interchangeably. A good example is found by comparing Mark 13:11 with Luke 21:15. Mark records it thus:But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand what you shall speak, but whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you that speak but the Holy Spirit (pneuma) (NKJV).
Now notice Luke's parallel found in Luke 21:15:
Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist (NKJV, emphasis mine).
The nuances of the above parallel are worth developing. How was it that Jesus became the “holy spirit (pneuma)” or the “spirit (pneuma) of truth”? You will notice that the above stated parallel equates Jesus as the “Holy Spirit” during the time of his envoy's persecution. This occurred after the establishment and the progression of the ekklesia, i.e., after Pentecost (Acts 2:1) and after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. The promise, however, was made by Jesus to them before his death as referenced above.
Jesus made the statement to his disciples just before his death that he would not leave them orphans but would send them “another” (Greek, allon (allon) i.e., another of the same kind) “advisor” (also rendered “Comforter,” “Helper,” “Counselor,” depending on the translation), i.e., the “spirit (pneuma) of truth.” As previously mentioned, these references to the “advisor” are used by Trinitarians to prove that the “Holy Spirit” is another person of deity. They do this by their commentaries, of course, and by capitalizing both “spirit” and “truth” as well as “comforter.” However, Jesus is referring to himself and the message that he carried that would return to them in the form of an “advisor” viz, the “spirit of truth”!
A definition of “advisor” or “comforter” is in order. It comes from the Greek word paraklhtoV (parakletos). Vine defines it as follows.“parakletos… lit., called to one's side, i.e., to one's aid, is primarily a verbal adjective, and suggests the capability or adaptability for giving aid. It was used in a court of justice to denote one who pleads another's cause, an intercessor, advocate, as in 1 John 2:1, of the Lord Jesus.”64
Actually, many scholars believe that Vine misstates the “court” application. The function of the advisor in Roman Palestine was to advise a plaintiff or defendant in how to plead his or her case. The advisor did not plead the case or personally intercede, but rather gave legal advice.
This word can be proven to apply specifically to Jesus at least five times. The KJV translates it “Comforter” all four times in John (14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7). It then renders paraklhtoV “advocate” (which is closer to the true definition) in 1 John 2:1 and then identifies the “advocate” as the “Lord Jesus.” That the “advisor” is Jesus in the form of the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” is easily demonstrated as Jesus teaches his envoys what would transpire after his death.
In John 14:9, Jesus tells them that if they have seen him they have seen the Father. In verse 11, he explains that he is in the Father and the Father is in him. This one verse explains how Jesus can also be referred to as the holy pneuma. The message of God that resided in him as the holy pneuma would soon be transferred to his envoys as “advisor” i.e., the “spirit (pneuma) of the truth.”
In verse 12, he says that the proof of the Father being in him was the miracles that he had performed and if they trusted they would do even greater signs. In verse 16, he explains this coming power by promising them “another advisor” that would come and live with them continually. In verse 17, he identifies this “advisor” as the “spirit (pneuma) of truth.” Read this verse in full.… the spirit (pneuma) of truth — which the creation cannot receive because it neither beholds it nor knows it. You know it because it is dwelling with you and will be in you (emphasis mine).
It is very important that you understand the full import of what Jesus is saying in this verse. First, he says that this “spirit (pneuma) of the truth” is already known to them. It was at the present time dwelling with them. It would be in them in the future. Let me reiterate. Jesus said they knew it already. It was dwelling with them and in the future would be in them.
In what way was the so-called third person of the “Godhead” known to them? The Jews, as already proven, knew nothing of a third person of God.
In what way was the so-called third person of the “Godhead” dwelling with them? The same objections apply and must be answered. And why was it necessary that Jesus go away for the so-called third person of the “Godhead” to come? If the “spirit of truth” is God, how can God be sent? God can neither be sent nor come since he is already omnipresent! And yet Jesus said exactly that as he continued to explain the nature of the “spirit (pneuma) of truth.” in John 16:7.But I am telling you the truth, it makes sense for you that I should go away. For if I don't go away, the advisor will not come to you, [but if I go, I will send it to you.]
These anomalies cannot be explained legitimately within the framework of Trinitarian theology. However, the view of one God and the “Anointed” Jesus as the “message made flesh” explains things well. As a matter of fact, we don't need to speculate that the “spirit of truth” is Jesus because he identifies himself as such in John 14:18. Immediately after saying that the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” was known by them, was with them, and would be in them, he tells them how by saying,
I won't leave you orphans: I am coming to you.
Who was coming to them? That's right! Jesus, the “I” of the above verse. How was he coming to them? That's right, as the “spirit (pneuma) of truth”. It also explains why Jesus used the Greek word allon (literally another of the same kind) for “another” rather than the Greek word eteroV (heteros) which means another of a different kind, i.e., “another advisor.”
And as you can also conclude, it makes no sense at all in light of Jesus being the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” that he was referring to a third person of Deity that was certainly unknown to the Jews to whom he was speaking!
On the contrary, this is how a “he” becomes an “it”. This is how God lived in the son — as the “message.” The “spirit (pneuma) of truth” was known to them because Jesus was known to them! The “spirit (pneuma) of truth” was with them because Jesus was with them! And it was necessary for Jesus to go away in order for the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” to be in them because at the time Jesus was speaking the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” was in him!. You see, reader, the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” could not be in them while it was IN Jesus and with them in the person of Jesus! It only makes sense, doesn't it?
It was God's “message” personified in Jesus that would be carried on in his envoys. It was the revelation of the good news of salvation. It was the “mystery” revealed that was spoken of by Paul. It was the medium of god's influence in the name of the “Anointed Jesus” that would be resident in them. And as you can see below, both the Father and Jesus were represent
ed in the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” that would return to live in them (John 14:23).Jesus answered, saying to him, If anyone loves me, he will keep my message, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and will make a dwelling with him (emphasis mine).
The “spirit (pneuma) of truth” is seen by the above reference to include both the “Anointed Jesus” and the Father since what Jesus taught was that which he received from the Father. It was in this respect that Jesus became the holy pneuma.
This is also the probable reason that the phrase “spirit of truth” was coined at the time rather than simply using “holy spirit” which had been commonly used until then. In the future, the resident “holy spirit” would include not only the will of the Father but also the anointed, resurrected, glorified, and coronated Jesus. Thus, the coming “spirit of truth” included the united will of Father God and His accomplice and accomplisher Anointed Jesus. Therefore we see this demonstrated in the words of the Hebrews writer:Continue to look intently at Jesus, the originator and completer of our trust. Who, in return for the joy that was placed before him endured a cross, taking no account of the shame. As a result, he has sat down at the right side of God's throne (Hebrews 12:2).
In this sense, therefore, it was the “completer of our trust” that was enthroned on God's right side that sent the “spirit of truth” to his envoys.
All allusions to the holy pneuma and the influence it had on the envoys and the New Testament ekklesia was foretold by Jesus. It would act as “advisor” to the envoys (John 14:18). It would “guide them into all truth” (John 16:13). It would convict the world of sin, righteousness and coming judgment (John 16:7). It would take from Jesus and reveal it to them (John 16:13). And it would “testify” of the “Anointed Jesus” (John 15:26). In all this, it is ultimately the power and influence of God through His “Anointed” that was alluded to. Paul drives this point home in 2 Cor. 3:17.But the Lord is the spirit. Now where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
Continuing this theme, “spirit (pneuma) of God” and “spirit (pneuma) of the Anointed” are also used interchangeably in Romans 8:9 as follows:
You are not fleshly but spiritual because the spirit (pneuma) of God dwells in you. If any one does not possess the spirit (pneuma) of the Anointed One, he is not of him.
In summing up this portion, the Medium of God's influence — called variously “spirit of God”, “holy breath”, “holy spirit” and after the anointing of Jesus “advisor” and “spirit of truth” as well — was resident in Jesus after his Anointing. After his death, Jesus sent it to reside in his envoys. The will of the Father is contained therein since the “message” was His from the beginning anyway. The Hebrew writer summed up the progression of this arrangement in Hebrews 1:1-2, previously alluded to:
In ancient times, in many parts and in many ways, God spoke to our ancestors by the prophets [through the ruach of God]. At the end of these days, he has spoken to us by a son [through the pneuma of truth], whom he placed as heir of all things and on account of he made the ages (emphasis and brackets mine).
It was this message residing in and spoken by the son through the holy pneuma that was later resident in the envoys and attested to by the power of holy pnuema that the Hebrew writer urges them not to drift away from:
For this reason, it is necessary to pay attention to the things which we heard lest we should drift away… This was first received through the Lord [through the pneuma of God] to be spoken by those who heard him [through the pneuma of truth]. It was confirmed for us with the co-testifying of God — both by signs and wonders and by various powers and by distributions of holy breath (pneuma) — according to what he wanted (Hebrews 2:1, 3-4, emphasis and brackets mine).
The above two scriptures cover the entire spectrum of God's MEDIUM in both the Old and New Testaments in prophesy and confirmation. In the subject under discussion, we see that God co-testified to the message of the Anointed through the use of His Medium, the holy pneuma
M42
By the way in the future why don’t you post something that is original?
Copying and pasting doesn’t make something yours.
At least show some humility and honesty toward the Jesus you claim is the Holy Spirit.
At least you could make mention of your source.
Jesus hates hypocrisy!
In the future I will not reply to any one who I believe is a masquerader!
Since I’m finding there is a lot of insincerity among the trinity haters.
Heres the link to your source….
****”There is One God…”****
by John M. BlandQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 02 2006,23:48) Quote There were three main arguments posited by the creed makers that attended the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD that personalized God's holy pneuma. The allusions by Jesus to the sending by him of the “Advisor” in John 14-16, the “baptismal family” of Matthew 28:18, and the “Spirit” verses found in Romans 8:26-27. We will look at all of them in detail but by far the most important to them are the “Advisor” verses of John.
Most remain unaware that in the New Testament times, God's holy pneuma and Jesus are sometimes used interchangeably. A good example is found by comparing Mark 13:11 with Luke 21:15. Mark records it thus:But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand what you shall speak, but whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you that speak but the Holy Spirit (pneuma) (NKJV).
Now notice Luke's parallel found in Luke 21:15:
Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist (NKJV, emphasis mine).
The nuances of the above parallel are worth developing. How was it that Jesus became the “holy spirit (pneuma)” or the “spirit (pneuma) of truth”? You will notice that the above stated parallel equates Jesus as the “Holy Spirit” during the time of his envoy's persecution. This occurred after the establishment and the progression of the ekklesia, i.e., after Pentecost (Acts 2:1) and after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. The promise, however, was made by Jesus to them before his death as referenced above.
Jesus made the statement to his disciples just before his death that he would not leave them orphans but would send them “another” (Greek, allon (allon) i.e., another of the same kind) “advisor” (also rendered “Comforter,” “Helper,” “Counselor,” depending on the translation), i.e., the “spirit (pneuma) of truth.” As previously mentioned, these references to the “advisor” are used by Trinitarians to prove that the “Holy Spirit” is another person of deity. They do this by their commentaries, of course, and by capitalizing both “spirit” and “truth” as well as “comforter.” However, Jesus is referring to himself and the message that he carried that would return to them in the form of an “advisor” viz, the “spirit of truth”!
A definition of “advisor” or “comforter” is in order. It comes from the Greek word paraklhtoV (parakletos). Vine defines it as follows.“parakletos… lit., called to one's side, i.e., to one's aid, is primarily a verbal adjective, and suggests the capability or adaptability for giving aid. It was used in a court of justice to denote one who pleads another's cause, an intercessor, advocate, as in 1 John 2:1, of the Lord Jesus.”64
Actually, many scholars believe that Vine misstates the “court” application. The function of the advisor in Roman Palestine was to advise a plaintiff or defendant in how to plead his or her case. The advisor did not plead the case or personally intercede, but rather gave legal advice.
This word can be proven to apply specifically to Jesus at least five times. The KJV translates it “Comforter” all four times in John (14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7). It then renders paraklhtoV “advocate” (which is closer to the true definition) in 1 John 2:1 and then identifies the “advocate” as the “Lord Jesus.” That the “advisor” is Jesus in the form of the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” is easily demonstrated as Jesus teaches his envoys what would transpire after his death.
In John 14:9, Jesus tells them that if they have seen him they have seen the Father. In verse 11, he explains that he is in the Father and the Father is in him. This one verse explains how Jesus can also be referred to as the holy pneuma. The message of God that resided in him as the holy pneuma would soon be transferred to his envoys as “advisor” i.e., the “spirit (pneuma) of the truth.”
In verse 12, he says that the proof of the Father being in him was the miracles that he had performed and if they trusted they would do even greater signs. In verse 16, he explains this coming power by promising them “another advisor” that would come and live with them continually. In verse 17, he identifies this “advisor” as the “spirit (pneuma) of truth.” Read this verse in full.… the spirit (pneuma) of truth — which the creation cannot receive because it neither beholds it nor knows it. You know it because it is dwelling with you and will be in you (emphasis mine).
It is very important that you understand the full import of what Jesus is saying in this verse. First, he says that this “spirit (pneuma) of the truth” is already known to them. It was at the present time dwelling with them. It would be in them in the future. Let me reiterate. Jesus said they knew it already. It was dwelling with them and in the future would be in them.
In what way was the so-called third person of the “Godhead” known to them? The Jews, as already proven, knew nothing of a third person of God.
In what way was the so-called third person of the “Godhead” dwelling with them? The same objections apply and must be answered. And why was it necessary that Jesus go away for the so-called third person of the “Godhead” to come? If the “spirit of truth” is God, how can God be sent? God can neither be sent nor come since he is already omnipresent! And yet Jesus said exactly that as he continued to explain the nature of the “spirit (pneuma) of truth.” in John 16:7.But I am telling you the truth, it makes sense for you that I should go away. For if I don't go away, the advisor will not come to you, [but if I go, I will send it to you.]
These anomalies cannot be explained legitimately within the framework of Trinitarian theology. However, the view of one God and the “Anointed” Jesus as the “message made flesh” explains things well. As a matter of fact, we don't need to speculate that the “spirit of truth” is Jesus because he identifies himself as such in John 14:18. Immediately after saying that the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” was known by them, was with them, and would be in them, he tells them how by saying,
I won't leave you orphans: I am coming to you.
Who was coming to them? That's right! Jesus, the “I” of the above verse. How was he coming to them? That's right, as the “spirit (pneuma) of truth”. It also explains why Jesus used the Greek word allon (literally another of the same kind) for “another” rather than the Greek word eteroV (heteros) which means another of a different kind, i.e., “another advisor.”
And as you can also conclude, it makes no sense at all in light of Jesus being the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” that he was referring to a third person of Deity that was certainly unknown to the Jews to whom he was speaking!
On the contrary, this is how a “he” becomes an “it”. This is how God lived in the son — as the “message.” The “spirit (pneuma) of truth” was known to them because Jesus was known to them! The “spirit (pneuma) of truth” was with them because Jesus was with them! And it was necessary for Jesus to go away in order for the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” to be in them because at the time Jesus was speaking the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” was in him!. You see, reader, the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” could not be in them while it was IN Jesus and with them in the person of Jesus! It only makes sense, doesn't it?
It was God's “message” personified in Jesus that would be carried on in his envoys. It was the revelation of the good news of salvat
ion. It was the “mystery” revealed that was spoken of by Paul. It was the medium of god's influence in the name of the “Anointed Jesus” that would be resident in them. And as you can see below, both the Father and Jesus were represented in the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” that would return to live in them (John 14:23).Jesus answered, saying to him, If anyone loves me, he will keep my message, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and will make a dwelling with him (emphasis mine).
The “spirit (pneuma) of truth” is seen by the above reference to include both the “Anointed Jesus” and the Father since what Jesus taught was that which he received from the Father. It was in this respect that Jesus became the holy pneuma.
This is also the probable reason that the phrase “spirit of truth” was coined at the time rather than simply using “holy spirit” which had been commonly used until then. In the future, the resident “holy spirit” would include not only the will of the Father but also the anointed, resurrected, glorified, and coronated Jesus. Thus, the coming “spirit of truth” included the united will of Father God and His accomplice and accomplisher Anointed Jesus. Therefore we see this demonstrated in the words of the Hebrews writer:Continue to look intently at Jesus, the originator and completer of our trust. Who, in return for the joy that was placed before him endured a cross, taking no account of the shame. As a result, he has sat down at the right side of God's throne (Hebrews 12:2).
In this sense, therefore, it was the “completer of our trust” that was enthroned on God's right side that sent the “spirit of truth” to his envoys.
All allusions to the holy pneuma and the influence it had on the envoys and the New Testament ekklesia was foretold by Jesus. It would act as “advisor” to the envoys (John 14:18). It would “guide them into all truth” (John 16:13). It would convict the world of sin, righteousness and coming judgment (John 16:7). It would take from Jesus and reveal it to them (John 16:13). And it would “testify” of the “Anointed Jesus” (John 15:26). In all this, it is ultimately the power and influence of God through His “Anointed” that was alluded to. Paul drives this point home in 2 Cor. 3:17.But the Lord is the spirit. Now where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
Continuing this theme, “spirit (pneuma) of God” and “spirit (pneuma) of the Anointed” are also used interchangeably in Romans 8:9 as follows:
You are not fleshly but spiritual because the spirit (pneuma) of God dwells in you. If any one does not possess the spirit (pneuma) of the Anointed One, he is not of him.
In summing up this portion, the Medium of God's influence — called variously “spirit of God”, “holy breath”, “holy spirit” and after the anointing of Jesus “advisor” and “spirit of truth” as well — was resident in Jesus after his Anointing. After his death, Jesus sent it to reside in his envoys. The will of the Father is contained therein since the “message” was His from the beginning anyway. The Hebrew writer summed up the progression of this arrangement in Hebrews 1:1-2, previously alluded to:
In ancient times, in many parts and in many ways, God spoke to our ancestors by the prophets [through the ruach of God]. At the end of these days, he has spoken to us by a son [through the pneuma of truth], whom he placed as heir of all things and on account of he made the ages (emphasis and brackets mine).
It was this message residing in and spoken by the son through the holy pneuma that was later resident in the envoys and attested to by the power of holy pnuema that the Hebrew writer urges them not to drift away from:
For this reason, it is necessary to pay attention to the things which we heard lest we should drift away… This was first received through the Lord [through the pneuma of God] to be spoken by those who heard him [through the pneuma of truth]. It was confirmed for us with the co-testifying of God — both by signs and wonders and by various powers and by distributions of holy breath (pneuma) — according to what he wanted (Hebrews 2:1, 3-4, emphasis and brackets mine).
The above two scriptures cover the entire spectrum of God's MEDIUM in both the Old and New Testaments in prophesy and confirmation. In the subject under discussion, we see that God co-testified to the message of the Anointed through the use of His Medium, the holy pneuma
M42
By the way in the future why don’t you post something that is original?
Copying and pasting doesn’t make something yours.
At least show some humility and honesty toward the Jesus you claim is the Holy Spirit.
At least you could make mention of your source.
Jesus hates hypocrisy!
In the future I will not reply to any one who I believe is a masquerader!
Since I’m finding there is a lot of insincerity among the trinity haters.
Heres the link to your source….
****”There is One God…”****
by John M. Bland
Actually that was supposed to have the web site attached to it but it did not copy all of it for some reason. I have several times posted original things and when quoting have displayed sources.
The fact that you find Non Trinitarian believers insincere is of little consequince. I find myself thinling not at all about whether I satisfy you.There is an old southern expression about blowing smoke up someones leg. The gist of the meaning is to fool someone into believing what you want them to believe. The real trick is to manufacture evidence convincing enough to fool the victim. It is also of great help if the person or group you are trying to fool is uneducated or ignorant of the subject and willing to believe or accept a lie. In the case of these doctrines all three components were in great abundance.
In the case of the historical Trinitarian Creeds and the dual nature doctrine that followed, these components took shape like this:
1. People were willing to believe a lie because Constantine would banish or kill all in opposition.
2. Because opposition was outlawed, there was no evidence presented to counter whatever was proposed.
3. Constantine had great motivation to promote a single statement of faith to unite his empire.
4. The people of the time were generally ignorant of the scriptures and relied solely on the ministers to tell them what to believe.
5. Many of those being saved were either of Pagan history or of the Greek philosophical mindset, and were more then willing to believe something familur to them.
6. Because the true nature of God and His plan requires the ultimate in vulnerability, it was much easier to ‘mentally ascend’ to a metaphysical, philosophical illusion of God and Godliness. By everyone mouthing meaningless rhetoric,they could all live in the fantasy of spirituality with many in agreement with them.
7. The most damaging aspect was the manufacturing of false evidence. Much of which still haunts Christianity today.
Allow me if you will to expand on the 7th point. The manufacturing of false evidence. As has been already shown Constantine and the councils simply made things up to push forward their own agendas. Much of this was done for purely political purposes. Later councils were unwilling to go against the now established doctrines of the church. Remember the church weilded great power well through the 18 century. In the case of most churches today, they still carry much weight in the minds of the people. These councils were trapped by fear and forced to make up even more outrageous doctrines to try to explain the previous faulty ones.
Some who manufactured evidence were more blatant
then others. As example:I John 5 verse 7
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
These verses seem to validate the doctrine of the Trinity.
Simply put verse 7 was added to 1 John sometime after about 1500 AD. The proof of this claim is as follows:
I. It is missing in all the earlier Greek manuscripts prior to the 16 century. (There are over 24,000 manuscripts or portions of manuscripts in existance today, some dating from as early as 30 years after Christ’s death. 100’s contain 1 John 5 without verse 7)
II. It is missing in the earliest versions and in the vast majority of later manuscripts. It is missing in both the Syriac versions-one of which was made probably in the first century; in the Coptic, Armenian, Slavonic, Ethiopic, and Arabic.
III. Such a clear proof text for the Trinity would surely have been quoted by Church Fathers in debate over the doctrine. To date not one document has surfaced wherein this verse was quoted prior to the 16 century.
The verse was simply added to lend support to a doctrine that had no other support in scripture.
The New American Standard Bible and The New International Version do not include it in the verse because the evidence would not support it being in the original. Several translations include it with footnotes explaining that the evidence is weak for it’s admitance into the cannon of scripture.There is evidence that King James used his power to coerce the translators to do nothing that would contradict the catholic faith or the Church of England which was also Trinitarian. This is certainly not the only time King James influinced the translators into a particular direction.
When the translators, of the King James Bible, came accross the word Baptizo (Gr) they should have literally translated it as immerse. The translation was clear. Greek literature of biblical time and the context of scripture all pointed to immerse.
The problem arose when those in power realized the method the Church of England and the Catholic Church were using of sprinkling babies was wrong. In order to cover up this mistake and avoid changing church doctrine the translators used what is called a transliteration. They slightly changed the Greek word Baptizo and moved it into the English language. It was not translated but simply manufactured. Because most people of the time did not know these languages the true meaning of the word was hidden for many years. Now we have the word Baptism in our Ehglish language. It did not exist prior to the 16 century.
This was a complete cover up in order to continue in an established false doctrine. The most disturbing fact is that even though this information is easily available today, many churches and individuals cling to sprinkling babies as the method of baptizing. It seems it is much easier for some to live a lie then to buck the system and live in truth. This is a sad commentary on our Christianity when we are afraid to live in or even seek truth. This Politically Correct attitude so invades our thinking that we fear saying anything that might rock the boat.
One of the most common responses I get, about God, from the unsaved involves their belief that Christianity is full of myths. The unfortunate truth is they are right. Christianity as generally presented in churches today is loaded with myths, made up doctrines, philosophies and illogical belief systems.
God created man with a free will. Unfortunately few really exercise this will but instead believe what they are told to believe. Our ability to think clearly and even to respectfully question doctrine is being slowly erroded away. Like cattle we often just follow along to the slaughter.
I have attempted to keep a civil tone on this board. I have accused no one of anything, but rather thried to discuss the matter in a logical way.
Since I have been accused of insincerity by some, my question to them is this — Here we have a doctrine that had no clear basis in scripture. A doctrine not even in existance till well into the third century after Christ. One who’s primary ingredeant was instituted by a pagan sun worshiper for political reasons. (Constantine) A doctrine greatly influinced by Greek Phylosophy. A doctrine which could not be resolved or proven scripturally so other “Councils” had to make up more metaphysical philosophies to try to explain it. A doctrine which cannot be expressed using only scriptural terms. A doctrine that defies reason, logic and even the intelegent design of God Himself. Worst of all, this doctrine does not function in reality. It does nothing to bring us more into the likeness of Christ. In fact it makes it harder to achieve. By what authority or stretch of the imagination do the supporters of the Trinity accuse anyone of insincerety?
Hi m42,
Of course the original theory was of a BINITY
and only later did this fall out of favour and the TRINITY EVOLVED.Of course TRUTH does not change or evolve
and the Spirit of God does not speak on His own initiative
and announce strange new doctrines 300 years after the Master made no such absurd revelation.These JW offshoot cults are so brainwashed that the precious truths of the Holy Bible is of non effect to them.They are willfully blind which is sin.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.Zec 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
The Holy Spirit is God
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.Mathew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (Blasphemy can only be committed against God)
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God (the Holy Ghost) in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God (the Holy Spirit) , and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord (God) is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit (only God hath immortality) offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
The HOLY SPIRIT (a Person) is endowed with very “personal” characteristics like:
Intelligence and knowledge, feelings and teaching ability.
(John 14:26) “for He will teach you all things”.
1 Cor. 2:13,14 He teaches us spiritual things, helping us to discern spiritual things
(1 Cor. 12:11),He makes decisions –deciding who gets what spiritual gift
He has emotions and can be grieved (Eph. 4:30)
Romans 8:26 “The Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.(John 16:8) He convicts of sin, of righteousness and judgment
Rev. 22:17
He invites people to “come” (Matt. 12:31, Mark 3:29) He can be sinned and blasphemed against, which can lead to the unpardonable sin
“The Spirit Himself bears witness…. that we are children of God (Romans 8:16
He speaks (Acts 8:29)
teaches (Luke 12:12)
reveals (Luke 2:26)
testifies (Acts 20:23)
searches (1 Cor. 2:10,11)
He sets people apart for service and sends them on their way (Acts 13:2,4)
He commands and guides (Acts 8:29)
He declares things to come (John 16:13)
In John chapters 14-16 Christ referred to the Holy Spirit 24 times with personal PRONOUNS. HE, HIM. He addresses the Holy Spirit as a person, and treats Him as a person. In John 14:16 He calls Him the Comforter (Parakletos), which is a title which could only be held by a person.If the Holy Spirit was only Christ's Spirit, then explain the following:
The Bible speaks of Him as:
1. The Spirit Himself (Romans 8:16; 8:26)
2. The Spirit of God (Romans 8:9; 8:14)
3. The Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9)The Spirit is all the fullness of the Godhead.
When we see statements like Christs Spirit or the Father’s Spirit, it does not take anything away from the Holy Spirit as an individual person of the Godhead.
If I said to you “my brother”, “your sister”, “his mother,”, or “mother of Charlie”, does this mean we own our brothers, sisters and mothers? Does this mean that they are part of us or that they are not separate individuals? Of course not!
The three Divine Beings in heaven are also very closely related. So we see statements like Christ’s Father, Spirit of God, Son of God, Christs Spirit, the Father’s Spirit or Spirit of the Lord.
The Spirit is all the fullness of the Godhead.
Rev 4:8, Isaiha 6:3 HOLY HOLY HOLY (praising the three Divine Beings)
Beware! Beware! of these Jehovah's Witnesses offshoot cults. If you are part of any of these cults, you must come out and join a real Christian church. Why should you be tormented by the word of God when you can live in harmony with it. It is not too late. You must come out. Bring your loved one's out.
Revelation 18:4 …. Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues….
TEXTS CONTAINING ALL THREE PERSONS OF THE GODHEAD
Following are just some texts showing the understanding of the Three Divine Beings / Persons in One Godhead.
Matt. 28:19 Baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit
11 Cor. 13:14 Grace of Christ, the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit.
11 Cor. 1:21,22 He Who establishes in Christ, anointed us is God, and given us the Spirit
1 Thess. 5:18-19 Will of God in Christ Jesus…quench not the Spirit.
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:Jude 20-21 Praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of Jesus Christ.
Notice also that ALL THREE MEMBERS were present at creation
Genesis 1:1,2 In the beginning GOD(Elohiym-plural) created the heavens and the earth…And the Spirit of God (Elohiym-plural) was hovering over the face of the the waters.
Genesis 1:26 And God (Elohiym-plural) said, …..
“Let US make man in OUR image…so God (Elohiym-plural) created man in His image..male and female He created THEM.Col. 1:15 “By Him [Christ] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, …all things were created through Him and for Him.”
All three were present at the incarnation!
Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.Isaiah 9:6
Christ's NAME, carries the Full Godhead:“Unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given and His NAME shall be called, Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
The One God (Godhead) is comprised of the Father, the Prince of Peace (Christ) and the Counselor (Holy Spirit)
Rev 4:8, Isaiha 6:3 HOLY HOLY HOLY (praising the three Divine Beings)
Beware! Beware! of these Jehovah's Witnesses offshoot cults. If you are part of any of these cults, you must come out and join a real Christian church. Why should you be tormented by the word of God when you can live in harmony with it. It is not too late. You must come out. Bring your loved one's out.
Revelation 18:4 …. Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues….
Quote (Cult Buster @ Dec. 03 2006,06:44) TEXTS CONTAINING ALL THREE PERSONS OF THE GODHEAD Following are just some texts showing the understanding of the Three Divine Beings / Persons in One Godhead.
Matt. 28:19 Baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit
11 Cor. 13:14 Grace of Christ, the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit.
11 Cor. 1:21,22 He Who establishes in Christ, anointed us is God, and given us the Spirit
1 Thess. 5:18-19 Will of God in Christ Jesus…quench not the Spirit.
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:Jude 20-21 Praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of Jesus Christ.
Notice also that ALL THREE MEMBERS were present at creation
Genesis 1:1,2 In the beginning GOD(Elohiym-plural) created the heavens and the earth…And the Spirit of God (Elohiym-plural) was hovering over the face of the the waters.
Genesis 1:26 And God (Elohiym-plural) said, …..
“Let US make man in OUR image…so God (Elohiym-plural) created man in His image..male and female He created THEM.Col. 1:15 “By Him [Christ] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, …all things were created through Him and for Him.”
All three were present at the incarnation!
Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.Isaiah 9:6
Christ's NAME, carries the Full Godhead:“Unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given and His NAME shall be called, Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
The One God (Godhead) is comprised of the Father, the Prince of Peace (Christ) and the Counselor (Holy Spirit)
Rev 4:8, Isaiha 6:3 HOLY HOLY HOLY (praising the three Divine Beings)
Beware! Beware! of these Jehovah's Witnesses offshoot cults. If you are part of any of these cults, you must come out and join a real Christian church. Why should you be tormented by the word of God when you can live in harmony with it. It is not too late. You must come out. Bring your loved one's out.
Revelation 18:4 …. Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues….
TEXTS CONTAINING ALL THREE PERSONS OF THE GODHEAD
Following are just some texts showing the understanding of the Three Divine Beings / Persons in One Godhead.Can you not describe your doctrine without resorting to non scriptural terms like persons of God?
Let’s look at your so called scriptural proofs —
Matt. 28:19 Baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy SpiritDid the Apostles understand Jesus commandment? Then why did they baptize in the name of Jesus in every case?
11 Cor. 13:14 Grace of Christ, the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit.
The use of the article “the” in Greek is not often used. In the vast majority of cases where “the” precedes Holy Spirit it is not present. It is added by later trinitarian translators to support their preconcieved ideas of the Trinity. Read the original Greek and it becomes clear.
Secondly there are no capitols in Greek. The capitolizing of Holy and Spirit is another manufactured proof of personalization of spirit.
Thirdly the very translation of Spirit is a mistake. The actual translation should be breath or wind. Here thanks to Jon Bland’s Book “There is one God” is a list of scriptures that are changed dramatically by the proper translation.
Mt. 1:18 “(Mary) was found with child of the Holy Spirit.”
Alt. “(Mary) was found to be with child by holy breath.”
Mt. 1:20 “… that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.”
Alt. “… that which is conceived in her is by holy breath.”
Mt. 3:11 “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”
Alt. “He will baptize you with holy breath and fire.”
Mk. 1:8 “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit”
Alt. “He will baptize you with holy breath.”
Lk. 1:15 “(John the Baptist) will be filled with the Holy Spirit…”
Alt. “(John the Baptist) will be filled with holy breath…”
Lk. 1:35 “The Holy Spirit will come upon you (Mary).”
Alt. “… holy breath will come upon you.”
Lk. 1:41 “and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.”
Alt. “and Elizabeth was filled with holy breath.”
Lk. 1:67 “Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit.”
Alt. “Now his father Zachariah was filled with holy breath.”
Lk. 2:25 “… and the Holy Spirit was upon him (Simeon).
Alt. “… and holy breath was upon him.”
Lk. 4:1 “Jesus being full of the Holy Spirit returned from Jordan.”
Alt. “Jesus, being full of holy breath, returned from Jordan.”
Jn. 1:34 “… this is he who baptized in the Holy Spirit.”
Alt. “… This is he who baptized in holy breath.”
Jn. 20:22 “Receive you the Holy Spirit.”
Alt. “Receive holy breath.”
Acts 2:4 “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit.”
Alt. “And they were all filled with holy breath.”Notice also that ALL THREE MEMBERS were present at creation
Genesis 1:1,2 In the beginning GOD(Elohiym-plural) created the heavens and the earth…And the Spirit of God (Elohiym-plural) was hovering over the face of the the waters.
Genesis 1:26 And God (Elohiym-plural) said, …..
“Let US make man in OUR image…so God (Elohiym-plural) created man in His image..male and female He created THEM.
Col. 1:15 “By Him [Christ] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, …all things were created through Him and for Him.”This denotes a lack of understaning of the Hebrew language. Hebrews do not see numbers in the same way as we of the greek thinking cultures. They see the plurality of elohim as one of quality not quanity.
All three were present at the incarnation!
Christ's NAME, carries the Full Godhead:
Christ means the anointed one. Does God need an anointing?“Unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given and His NAME shall be called, Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Jesus came in His Father’s name as He said. This does not make Him the Father.
Rev 4:8, Isaiha 6:3 HOLY HOLY HOLY (praising the three Divine Beings)
Hog wash. The only way to see the Trinity in this statement is to read doctrine into the scripture rather then allowing scripture to define doctrine.
Beware! Beware! of these Jehovah's Witnesses offshoot cults. If you are part of any of these cults, you must come out and join a real Christian church. Why should you be tormented by the word of God when you can live in harmony with it. It is not too late. You must come out. Bring your loved one's out.
That statement is almost funny if it were not so sad. An assumption on your part and a compleat judgement of my motives or association with Jehovah's Witness. I am not a member of the watchtower. In fact I think they are as messed up doctrinally as the Trinitarians.
Secondly do you believe a church must believe in the trinity to be a real Christian Church? I would defy you to find and scripture that clearly states you must believe in the Trinity to be saved. If you can show me clearly using one of the following terms so easily batted around by trinitarians I will e
at my words. Trinity, Triune God, First Person of God, Second Person of God, Third Person of God,Three in One, incarnation (as pertaining to Christ)Three persons of the trinity, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit or eternally begotten. Dual nature or 100% God and 100% manThe truth is very clear in scripture and needs no outside terms or qualifications to understand it. There is nothing ambigous or mystical about it. Nothing that must be accepted by faith without clear scripture. In fact the truth can be clearly explained using only scripture with no outside wordage at all.
Deut 4:6
“Hear, O Israel! The LORD (Yahweh) is our God, the LORD is one! (In most translations LORD all in capitols signifies the personal name of God, Yahweh)John 4:24
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”Numbers 23:19
” God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? (In the NASB Jesus is refered to as the Son of Man over 97 times. Most times by Jesus himself.)1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus, (MAN = Anthropos (Gr) can only mean human. Not an augmented humanity with a dual nature but simply human)Heb 2/17
Therefore, He had to be MADE LIKE HIS BRETHREN IN ALL THINGS, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.Hebrews 4/15
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things AS WE ARE, yet without sin.John 14/9 and 10
Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10″Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and THE FATHER IS IN ME? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the FATHER ABIDING IN ME does His works.Acts 10/38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
Acts 2/36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord (Kurios Gr.) and Christ–this Jesus whom you crucified.”
For He (Yahweh) has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the MAN he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
(Lord, capitol “L” , small ”ord”, In the Greek, Kurios = Master or one in authority, much like the use in feudal Lord of a castle. Not a name for God. Additionally Christ means anointed one. God needs no anointing but a man does.)John 12:44 thru 46
44Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45WHEN HE LOOKS AT ME, HE SEES THE ONE WHO SENT ME. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.John 20:17 (Jesus speaking)
“I ascend unto MY FATHER and your Father, and to MY GOD and your God.” (Co-equal persons of God?)John 14:28 –
“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.”
(Co-equal?)1 Cor. 3:23
– “And ye are Christ's; and CHRIST IS GOD'S.”
(Co-equal?)1 Cor. 11:3 –
“But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.”
(Co-equal?)Eph 1:3 –
“Blessed be the GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ;
(Co-equal?)Eph 1:17
– “that the GOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE FATHER OF GLORY, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:”
(Co-equal?)Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.There is a lot of smoke blowing around here.
And they are trying to blow it up our noses.
But fortunatly the Holy Ghost sniffer reveals the rotten, stinking, foul odor of man made doctrines!
Quote Hi W,
Thern why cling to such as trinity?
God did not teach it.Do you think so?
Perhaps you need to take another look.
TEXTS CONTAINING ALL THREE PERSONS OF THE GODHEAD
Following are just some texts showing the understanding of the Three Divine Beings / Persons in One Godhead.
Matt. 28:19 Baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit
11 Cor. 13:14 Grace of Christ, the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit.
11 Cor. 1:21,22 He Who establishes in Christ, anointed us is God, and given us the Spirit
1 Thess. 5:18-19 Will of God in Christ Jesus…quench not the Spirit.
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:Jude 20-21 Praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of Jesus Christ.
Notice also that ALL THREE MEMBERS were present at creation
Genesis 1:1,2 In the beginning GOD(Elohiym-plural) created the heavens and the earth…And the Spirit of God (Elohiym-plural) was hovering over the face of the the waters.
Genesis 1:26 And God (Elohiym-plural) said, …..
“Let US make man in OUR image…so God (Elohiym-plural) created man in His image..male and female He created THEM.Col. 1:15 “By Him [Christ] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, …all things were created through Him and for Him.”
All three were present at the incarnation!
Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.Isaiah 9:6
Christ's NAME, carries the Full Godhead:“Unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given and His NAME shall be called, Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
The One God (Godhead) is comprised of the Father, the Prince of Peace (Christ) and the Counselor (Holy Spirit)
Rev 4:8, Isaiha 6:3 HOLY HOLY HOLY (praising the three Divine Beings)
Beware! Beware! of these Jehovah's Witnesses offshoot Arian cults. Don't let them brainwash you. If you are part of any of these cults, you must come out and join a real Christian church. Why should you be tormented by the word of God when you can live in harmony with it. It is not too late. You must come out. Bring your loved one's out.
Revelation 18:4 …. Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues….
Thanks Faith First.
Quote Isaiha 42:18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus
Phi 2:6 Who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with GodRom 9:5 Whose are the fathers and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came who is over all God blessed for ever Amen
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness God was manifest in the flesh
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding that we may know him that is true and we are in him that is true even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God (Jesus) and eternal life.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,..Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy;(The high priest understood Jesus’ claim to be God and wrongly accused Him of blasphemy.)
Blasphemy can only be committed against God.Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God,…
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mar 2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
Mar 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God (Theos).
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them:
and that Rock was Christ.Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: (because Jesus claimed the name of God)Joh 10:9 I am the door:
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd:
Joh 11:25 … I am the resurrection,
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
Joh 15:1 I am the true vine,Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.Acts 7:59, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
Come out of her!
Hi CB,
We feed on the bread of life in which there are no gnats.
Should you not abide in the Word of God rather than the doctrines of men?Hi CB,
You say
“Following are just some texts showing the understanding of the Three Divine Beings / Persons in One Godhead.”What you presented is not a teaching from the mouth of God through Jesus or the apostles and prophets. They are verses drawn from scripture because they may give weak support to a human doctrine. We do not USE scripture in this way but let it teach us truth as simple children of God.
Why did Jesus not tell us this important 'fact', so important that all the traditional churches have based their faith on it?
Do you have any such actual scriptural teachings as they would be far more convincing than any derived findings from scripture that make men think they are clever?
If Jesus is God
Who is the Son of God and
Who is the God of Jesus?Jn 20
“17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. “Quote (Cult Buster @ Dec. 05 2006,06:04) Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Let's test to see who is blind to truth. Regardless of twisted scripture on either side, the doctrine formulated must pass two very important tests.
1. The teaching must make sence. It must stand up to reason.
2. The teaching must function. It must enable us to become more like Christ.I have posted parts of this before but it bears restating. To what ever degree Jesus is a God to that same degree can we not become like him. Even the false doctrine of the Dual-nature or 100% man and 100% God does nothing to resolve this problem.
Firstly from the very beginning of recorded history in scripture God has dealt with man according to reason and logic. The rules of action and reaction are clearly shown in God’s covenants with man. If we act in accordance with God’s covenant then we receive the blessing of God. If not, then we do not. If God were not a reasoning creature or we not able to understand reason, we could never understand or follow his covenants. We are created in the image of God, with the same reasoning abilities as God. In fact God calls upon us to reason with Him.
Isaiah 1:18
“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.”Would God calls us to reason with Him were we not capable of doing so?
Secondly this is not a paradox. A paradox is something that appears to be impossible yet proves itself to be possible. An example of a paradox is the belief held for years that, according to the then believed laws of physics, bumble bees could not fly. Yet bumble bees DID fly. This paradox existed because our understanding of nature continues to expand and further understanding resolved the paradox. This does not hold true with laws of reason and logic. There are absolute truths based on logic that do not change. 2 + 2 will always equal 4. There are no square circles. Black does not equal white ect. In the same way opposites cannot be equal.
God cannot be tempted. Jesus can be, and was. These two attributes are opposites and cannot exist within one being.
Jesus is human and therefor can fail. God cannot fail in anything He attempts. Again opposite.
God is all powerfull. Humanity is not. Jesus is human therefore not all powerfull. Opposites!
There is a clear pattern here. The attributes of God and Man cannot exist within one being.
There are some that believe that the laws of logic and reason do not apply when considering God. This is curiously like the beliefs of Wicca (modern witchcraft) who hold there are no absolutes. They further believe that everyone can imagine their own God, with any qualities they make up. Because they do not accept scripture, they require no proof, nor do they require any reason or logic in their God’s attributes or actions. With that philosophy, it is possible to postulate any scenerio, no matter how absurd.
Simply put the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ cannot be expressed without causing contradictions. It cannot be stated in a meaningful way. We can recite the words but our minds cannot understand them in any logical way free of contradictions. It would be like saying something is a square and a circle at the same time. Logic does not permit such a conclusion.
Another problem with the dual nature concept arises when considering if Jesus is the same as the rest of humanity. The very essence of humanity is it’s single human nature. If you change the nature of a man, you change that man into a different creature. If the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ is true and Christ's two natures cannot be seperated, then he is fundamentally different then the rest of mankind, since we have only our single human nature and make up. This makes Jesus a different creature then the rest of Humanity. It makes him non human. Followers of this doctrine can state time and again that Jesus is fully human, but the belief that He has a dual and therefor different nature makes Him different. They must, by excepting this doctrine, qualify Jesus’ humanity. This of course contradicts hundreds of very clear scriptures.
This dual nature further begs the question, How is Jesus a pattern for us if he is different in nature then us? We then have to examine every act of Jesus to determine if he did it by virtue of his human nature or his divine nature? When Jesus healed people was it his divine or human nature in action. If we say it was his human nature then we must conclude that humanity has miracle power without God. If his divine nature then how can we do or imitate any of Jesus powerful gifts. After all we have only our human nature! Even though Jesus says “Greater things then this we you do”, we still must question from which nature he did them.
What of Jesus’ resurrection? The most powerful hope and example in the word. Did He resurrect as a man or as a God? What power did it? Of course scripture says God raised Jesus from the dead. This does not solve our dilemma. If Jesus' nature has to be qualified to fullfill the dual nature doctrine and the two natures cannot be seperated, then what was raised from the dead, a God or a man? There are those that teach that God withdrew from Jesus at the point of His crucifiction? The only proof they have is the fact that Jesus cries out “My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?” This is not proof of a broken dual nature. It makes much more sence to see Jesus as a man in such tremendous pain in his heart and body that He cries out in total anquish. He was being killed or deserted by those whom he so desperately loved.
Because this doctrine makes Jesus different we still must question his ability to be a pattern for us. The fact that God raised a dual natured God/man from the dead is not an example for those of us that are of a single nature. How do we know that we, of a single nature, will be raised from the dead? Because this dual nature of Christ makes Jesus different, in basic nature, then the rest of humanity, we cannot use his life as an example. This scraps all of the plan of God to raise up others like Christ. How can others become dual natured like Jesus?
The only wat Jesus can truly be a complete example for Humanity is if He is completly human. The complete Human son of the one true God.
Hi 94,
Of course we are more than single component in nature. We are body, soul and spirit, made like to God in soul and spirit. Christ is like to us in all ways, but not necessarily exactly the same. God sees man as dust. Christ is dust like to us from the dust of Mary and Adam having a tent in which he dwelled. But as inner man, as vessel, there can be differences. Some vessels are more valuable and more important.2Tim 2
“20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. “
All are equivalent in use to God.
We are earthenware.
Who is wood and silver, and who is gold?Quite often when people try to demote their God Christ to that of a created being, they confuse Christ's mission as Messiah with His substance. His substance being God Himself. There is abundant scriture to prove this as we have already seen. His mission was to temporarily lay aside His own divine power and assume the form of a man, and to defeat Satan while living as a man.
They quote “proof texts” taken in the context of His incarnation and then distort the scriptures to try to prove their Arian beliefs.
Christ lived fully as a man because He had to live and overcome as a man relying on God for power like we must also do; but He was still God.
During His incarnation He did not exercise His divinity for His own advantage, but resisted temptation in the form of a man.
It's that simple!
Hi CB,
Thank you for not shouting.
Your ideas raise a few problems.
First scripture says Jesus was like to us in all ways except sin. We are not divine. He must be like us so we can follow him.
Secondly he was anointed by God with His Spirit.Acts 10
” 34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.'
So the powers he used were not his own. He emptied himself, and he constantly declared that it was the Father who worked through him and that he could do nothing by himself. We ought to believe him.Quote (Cult Buster @ Dec. 06 2006,06:30) Quite often when people try to demote their God Christ to that of a created being, they confuse Christ's mission as Messiah with His substance. His substance being God Himself. There is abundant scriture to prove this as we have already seen. His mission was to temporarily lay aside His own divine power and assume the form of a man, and to defeat Satan while living as a man. They quote “proof texts” taken in the context of His incarnation and then distort the scriptures to try to prove their Arian beliefs.
Christ lived fully as a man because He had to live and overcome as a man relying on God for power like we must also do; but He was still God.
During His incarnation He did not exercise His divinity for His own advantage, but resisted temptation in the form of a man.
It's that simple!
Hi Cult Buster,Maybe you could answer a few questions I have. The first one is..if God is a Trinity..one being three persons, How could God forsake Himself on the cross? If the Father forsook the Son and they are one being then God forsook Himself which is impossible. Which would also mean that God poured out His wrath on Himself? Right?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
