Jesus Christ is God

[charity]

Christ is the author of the new creation;

And is subject always to God

God shears his Name in only Lord; But God will not shear the Name God with any

Christ shears the Name King! King of Kings And lord Of Lords with Men

And The Daughters of Zion; Made For the Man;

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

We need to get this right! with a little fear!

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Charity

[NickHassan]

Hi FF,
You say
“Likewise, one Person of the Godhead can be in subjection to another Person and remain God in essence and substance “

This is not scripturally based but attempting to build doctrine on human wisdom.
It must fall.

It is a plant not planted by the Father.

It will be pulled out with the tares and burnt.

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 30 2006,20:03)

Hi Kenrch, You say “Jesus is God of this new kingdom.” Has God stopped being God?

No Nick I believe the Father is still God of our God.

Jesus is God of the new creation “until” the last enemy is defeated which is death. Then and only then does the God of His new creation submit to Jehovah so God will be all in all.

Adam was god of this world then Satan and now Jesus the 2nd Adam. There is only one above the God of this new creation and that is our and Jesus' God Jehovah.

[Faith First]

Isaiha 42:18  Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.

Joh 9:41  Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily

Phi 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus
Phi 2:6  Who being in the form of God  thought it not robbery to be equal with God

Rom 9:5  Whose are the fathers  and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came  who is over all God blessed for ever Amen

Tit 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope  and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness  God was manifest in the flesh

1Jo 5:20  And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding  that we may know him that is true  and we are in him that is true  even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God (Jesus) and eternal life.

Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,..

Mic 5:2  But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Heb 7:16  Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Mat 26:63  But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64  Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65  Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy;

(The high priest understood Jesus’ claim to be God and wrongly accused Him of blasphemy.)
Blasphemy can only be committed against God.

Mat 9:2  And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

2Co 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God,…

Heb 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Isa 40:3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Rev 22:13  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:10  He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Heb 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb 1:10  And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Gen 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image,

Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Mat 9:6  But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Mar 2:5  When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mar 2:6  But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
Mar 2:7  Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Col 3:13  Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Joh 5:22  For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23  That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Joh 14:1  Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Heb 1:6  And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Rev 22:8  And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9  Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God (Theos).
Joh 20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Jer 23:5  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6  In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Rev 2:23  And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Mar 2:28  Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Exo 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Deu 32:3  Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Deu 32:4  He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35  And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Exo 20:1  And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2  I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of th
e house of bondage.
1Co 10:2  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

2Ti 4:1  I charge thee therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
Heb 13:8  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 8:57  Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
Joh 8:59  Then took they up stones to cast at him: (because Jesus claimed the name of God)

Joh 10:9  I am the door:
Joh 10:11  I am the good shepherd:
Joh 11:25  … I am the resurrection,
Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:
Joh 14:10  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
Joh 15:1  I am the true vine,

Joh 5:17  But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18  Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Joh 14:1  Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Acts 7:59, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

Unfortunately when people get involved in these Arian cults they come out with all these spurious doctrine regards Christ our God

Rev 14:8 ..Babylon is fallen, is fallen..

Rev 18:4  ..Come out of her, my people..

[NickHassan]

Hi FF,
So God dwelled in Jesus and can dwell in our vessels too.
So why do you need to add to this message man's ideas?
They offend God and you are at risk being joined with these rebels.
Come out of her

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Isaiha 42:18  Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Joh 9:41  Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily Phi 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus Phi 2:6  Who being in the form of God  thought it not robbery to be equal with God Rom 9:5  Whose are the fathers  and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came  who is over all God blessed for ever Amen Tit 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope  and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ 1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness  God was manifest in the flesh 1Jo 5:20  And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding  that we may know him that is true  and we are in him that is true  even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God (Jesus) and eternal life. Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,.. Mic 5:2  But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Heb 7:16  Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. Mat 26:63  But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Mat 26:64  Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Mat 26:65  Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; (The high priest understood Jesus’ claim to be God and wrongly accused Him of blasphemy.) Blasphemy can only be committed against God. Mat 9:2  And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. 2Co 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God,… Heb 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb 1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Isa 40:3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Rev 22:13  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Joh 1:10  He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Heb 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb 1:10  And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Gen 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Mat 9:6  But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. Mar 2:5  When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. Mar 2:6  But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Mar 2:7  Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? Col 3:13  Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. Joh 5:22  For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Joh 5:23  That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Joh 14:1  Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. Heb 1:6  And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Rev 22:8  And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Rev 22:9  Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God (Theos). Joh 20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. Jer 23:5  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. Jer 23:6  In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Rev 2:23  And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Mar 2:28  Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. Exo 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: 1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. Deu 32:3  Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. Deu 32:4  He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. 1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. Psa 78:35  And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer. 1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. Exo 20:1  And God spake all these words, saying, Exo 20:2  I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 1Co 10:2  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 2Ti 4:1  I charge thee therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not; Heb 13:8  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Joh 8:57  Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Joh 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. Joh 8:59  Then took they up stones to cast at him: (because Jesus claimed the name of God) Joh 10:9  I am the door: Joh 10:11  I am the good shepherd: Joh 11:25  … I am the resurrection, Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: Joh 14:10  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? Joh 15:1  I am the true vine, Joh 5:17  But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Joh 5:18  Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Joh 14:1  Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. Acts 7:59, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Unfortunately when people get involved in these Arian cults they come out with all these spurious doctrine regards Christ our God Rev 14:8 ..Babylon is fallen, is fallen.. Rev 18:4  ..Come out of her, my people..

Faith First.

Excellent. Some really good points!

Its amazing how men will just pass by the truth in the scriptures when it dosnt conform to their man made doctrines.

Blessings!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
We find it equally amazing that people will continue to believe in and propagate a false catholic belief that has no scriptural basis even when they are shown clear truths from scripture that make it untenable.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi W, We find it equally amazing that people will continue to believe in and propagate a false catholic belief that has no scriptural basis even when they are shown clear truths from scripture that make it untenable.

NH

Do you believe That we are saved by the Blood of Jesus?

Do you believe in eternal Life?

Do you believe that God is a Spirit?

Do you believe in the resurection of the dead?

Do you believe in the infallability of the scriptures?

Do you believe in the the judgment day?

Last I checked the Catholics believe in the above to. So whats your point?

BTW NH, Please tell me that you dont mean the following statement!

You said about the words of Jesus….

“Inference is a poor witness to truth.”

I think the words of Jesus show clear truths from scripture that make them untenable!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
You say
“I think ..”

We do not have to use reason when clear teachings are expounded in scripture.

Jesus said he is the Son of God, and said God was his Father, so should we believe him or you?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi W, You say “I think ..” We do not have to use reason when clear teachings are expounded in scripture. Jesus said he is the Son of God, and said God was his Father, so should we believe him or you?

NH Strange you should say this.

I said….

Jesus says the Spirit is a person…

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even] the Spirit of truth; whom [hos] the world cannot receive, because it seeth him [autos] not, neither knoweth him [autos]: but ye know him [autos]; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Notice he says “seeth him [autos] not, neither knoweth him [autos]”.

The word for “ him” is autos {ow-tos'}
1) himself, herself, themselves, itself
2) he, she, it
3) the same
It was translated AV – him 1952, his 1084, their 318, he 252, her 242, they 121.
That’s over 3000 times in the New Testament “autos” is used referring to a person.

There are many other scriptures pointing to the Spirit of God as a person.

Can it be any plainer?

You said….

“Inference is a poor witness to truth.”

In answer to your question you should believe the Words of the Lord Jesus.

[music4two]

There were three main arguments posited by the creed makers that attended the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD that personalized God's holy pneuma. The allusions by Jesus to the sending by him of the “Advisor” in John 14-16, the “baptismal family” of Matthew 28:18, and the “Spirit” verses found in Romans 8:26-27. We will look at all of them in detail but by far the most important to them are the “Advisor” verses of John.
Most remain unaware that in the New Testament times, God's holy pneuma and Jesus are sometimes used interchangeably. A good example is found by comparing Mark 13:11 with Luke 21:15. Mark records it thus:

But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand what you shall speak, but whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you that speak but the Holy Spirit (pneuma) (NKJV).

Now notice Luke's parallel found in Luke 21:15:

Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist (NKJV, emphasis mine).

The nuances of the above parallel are worth developing. How was it that Jesus became the “holy spirit (pneuma)” or the “spirit (pneuma) of truth”? You will notice that the above stated parallel equates Jesus as the “Holy Spirit” during the time of his envoy's persecution. This occurred after the establishment and the progression of the ekklesia, i.e., after Pentecost (Acts 2:1) and after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. The promise, however, was made by Jesus to them before his death as referenced above.
Jesus made the statement to his disciples just before his death that he would not leave them orphans but would send them “another” (Greek, allon (allon) i.e., another of the same kind) “advisor” (also rendered “Comforter,” “Helper,” “Counselor,” depending on the translation), i.e., the “spirit (pneuma) of truth.” As previously mentioned, these references to the “advisor” are used by Trinitarians to prove that the “Holy Spirit” is another person of deity. They do this by their commentaries, of course, and by capitalizing both “spirit” and “truth” as well as “comforter.” However, Jesus is referring to himself and the message that he carried that would return to them in the form of an “advisor” viz, the “spirit of truth”!
A definition of “advisor” or “comforter” is in order. It comes from the Greek word paraklhtoV (parakletos). Vine defines it as follows.

“parakletos… lit., called to one's side, i.e., to one's aid, is primarily a verbal adjective, and suggests the capability or adaptability for giving aid. It was used in a court of justice to denote one who pleads another's cause, an intercessor, advocate, as in 1 John 2:1, of the Lord Jesus.”64

Actually, many scholars believe that Vine misstates the “court” application. The function of the advisor in Roman Palestine was to advise a plaintiff or defendant in how to plead his or her case. The advisor did not plead the case or personally intercede, but rather gave legal advice.
This word can be proven to apply specifically to Jesus at least five times. The KJV translates it “Comforter” all four times in John (14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7). It then renders paraklhtoV “advocate” (which is closer to the true definition) in 1 John 2:1 and then identifies the “advocate” as the “Lord Jesus.” That the “advisor” is Jesus in the form of the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” is easily demonstrated as Jesus teaches his envoys what would transpire after his death.
In John 14:9, Jesus tells them that if they have seen him they have seen the Father. In verse 11, he explains that he is in the Father and the Father is in him. This one verse explains how Jesus can also be referred to as the holy pneuma. The message of God that resided in him as the holy pneuma would soon be transferred to his envoys as “advisor” i.e., the “spirit (pneuma) of the truth.”
In verse 12, he says that the proof of the Father being in him was the miracles that he had performed and if they trusted they would do even greater signs. In verse 16, he explains this coming power by promising them “another advisor” that would come and live with them continually. In verse 17, he identifies this “advisor” as the “spirit (pneuma) of truth.” Read this verse in full.

… the spirit (pneuma) of truth — which the creation cannot receive because it neither beholds it nor knows it. You know it because it is dwelling with you and will be in you (emphasis mine).

It is very important that you understand the full import of what Jesus is saying in this verse. First, he says that this “spirit (pneuma) of the truth” is already known to them. It was at the present time dwelling with them. It would be in them in the future. Let me reiterate. Jesus said they knew it already. It was dwelling with them and in the future would be in them.
In what way was the so-called third person of the “Godhead” known to them? The Jews, as already proven, knew nothing of a third person of God.
In what way was the so-called third person of the “Godhead” dwelling with them? The same objections apply and must be answered. And why was it necessary that Jesus go away for the so-called third person of the “Godhead” to come? If the “spirit of truth” is God, how can God be sent? God can neither be sent nor come since he is already omnipresent! And yet Jesus said exactly that as he continued to explain the nature of the “spirit (pneuma) of truth.” in John 16:7.

But I am telling you the truth, it makes sense for you that I should go away. For if I don't go away, the advisor will not come to you, [but if I go, I will send it to you.]

These anomalies cannot be explained legitimately within the framework of Trinitarian theology. However, the view of one God and the “Anointed” Jesus as the “message made flesh” explains things well. As a matter of fact, we don't need to speculate that the “spirit of truth” is Jesus because he identifies himself as such in John 14:18. Immediately after saying that the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” was known by them, was with them, and would be in them, he tells them how by saying,

I won't leave you orphans: I am coming to you.

Who was coming to them? That's right! Jesus, the “I” of the above verse. How was he coming to them? That's right, as the “spirit (pneuma) of truth”. It also explains why Jesus used the Greek word allon (literally another of the same kind) for “another” rather than the Greek word eteroV (heteros) which means another of a different kind, i.e., “another advisor.”
And as you can also conclude, it makes no sense at all in light of Jesus being the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” that he was referring to a third person of Deity that was certainly unknown to the Jews to whom he was speaking!
On the contrary, this is how a “he” becomes an “it”. This is how God lived in the son — as the “message.” The “spirit (pneuma) of truth” was known to them because Jesus was known to them! The “spirit (pneuma) of truth” was with them because Jesus was with them! And it was necessary for Jesus to go away in order for the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” to be in them because at the time Jesus was speaking the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” was in him!. You see, reader, the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” could not be in them while it was IN Jesus and with them in the person of Jesus! It only makes sense, doesn't it?
It was God's “message” personified in Jesus that would be carried on in his envoys. It was the revelation of the good news of salvation. It was the “mystery” revealed that was spoken of by Paul. It was the medium of god's influence in the name of the “Anointed Jesus” that would be resident in them. And as you can see below, both the Father and Jesus were represented in the “spirit (pneuma) of truth” that would return to live in them (John 14:23).

Jesus answered, saying to him, If anyone loves me, he will keep my me
ssage, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and will make a dwelling with him (emphasis mine).

The “spirit (pneuma) of truth” is seen by the above reference to include both the “Anointed Jesus” and the Father since what Jesus taught was that which he received from the Father. It was in this respect that Jesus became the holy pneuma.
This is also the probable reason that the phrase “spirit of truth” was coined at the time rather than simply using “holy spirit” which had been commonly used until then. In the future, the resident “holy spirit” would include not only the will of the Father but also the anointed, resurrected, glorified, and coronated Jesus. Thus, the coming “spirit of truth” included the united will of Father God and His accomplice and accomplisher Anointed Jesus. Therefore we see this demonstrated in the words of the Hebrews writer:

Continue to look intently at Jesus, the originator and completer of our trust. Who, in return for the joy that was placed before him endured a cross, taking no account of the shame. As a result, he has sat down at the right side of God's throne (Hebrews 12:2).

In this sense, therefore, it was the “completer of our trust” that was enthroned on God's right side that sent the “spirit of truth” to his envoys.
All allusions to the holy pneuma and the influence it had on the envoys and the New Testament ekklesia was foretold by Jesus. It would act as “advisor” to the envoys (John 14:18). It would “guide them into all truth” (John 16:13). It would convict the world of sin, righteousness and coming judgment (John 16:7). It would take from Jesus and reveal it to them (John 16:13). And it would “testify” of the “Anointed Jesus” (John 15:26). In all this, it is ultimately the power and influence of God through His “Anointed” that was alluded to. Paul drives this point home in 2 Cor. 3:17.

But the Lord is the spirit. Now where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Continuing this theme, “spirit (pneuma) of God” and “spirit (pneuma) of the Anointed” are also used interchangeably in Romans 8:9 as follows:

You are not fleshly but spiritual because the spirit (pneuma) of God dwells in you. If any one does not possess the spirit (pneuma) of the Anointed One, he is not of him.

In summing up this portion, the Medium of God's influence — called variously “spirit of God”, “holy breath”, “holy spirit” and after the anointing of Jesus “advisor” and “spirit of truth” as well — was resident in Jesus after his Anointing. After his death, Jesus sent it to reside in his envoys. The will of the Father is contained therein since the “message” was His from the beginning anyway. The Hebrew writer summed up the progression of this arrangement in Hebrews 1:1-2, previously alluded to:

In ancient times, in many parts and in many ways, God spoke to our ancestors by the prophets [through the ruach of God]. At the end of these days, he has spoken to us by a son [through the pneuma of truth], whom he placed as heir of all things and on account of he made the ages (emphasis and brackets mine).

It was this message residing in and spoken by the son through the holy pneuma that was later resident in the envoys and attested to by the power of holy pnuema that the Hebrew writer urges them not to drift away from:

For this reason, it is necessary to pay attention to the things which we heard lest we should drift away… This was first received through the Lord [through the pneuma of God] to be spoken by those who heard him [through the pneuma of truth]. It was confirmed for us with the co-testifying of God — both by signs and wonders and by various powers and by distributions of holy breath (pneuma) — according to what he wanted (Hebrews 2:1, 3-4, emphasis and brackets mine).

The above two scriptures cover the entire spectrum of God's MEDIUM in both the Old and New Testaments in prophesy and confirmation. In the subject under discussion, we see that God co-testified to the message of the Anointed through the use of His Medium, the holy pneuma.

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 01 2006,21:34)

Quote Hi W, You say “I think ..” We do not have to use reason when clear teachings are expounded in scripture. Jesus said he is the Son of God, and said God was his Father, so should we believe him or you? NH Strange you should say this. I said…. Jesus says the Spirit is a person… John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even] the Spirit of truth; whom [hos] the world cannot receive, because it seeth him [autos] not, neither knoweth him [autos]: but ye know him [autos]; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Notice he says “seeth him [autos] not, neither knoweth him [autos]”. The word for “ him” is autos {ow-tos'} 1) himself, herself, themselves, itself 2) he, she, it 3) the same It was translated AV – him 1952, his 1084, their 318, he 252, her 242, they 121. That’s over 3000 times in the New Testament “autos” is used referring to a person. There are many other scriptures pointing to the Spirit of God as a person. Can it be any plainer? You said…. “Inference is a poor witness to truth.” In answer to your question you should believe the Words of the Lord Jesus.

Hi w,
Did Jesus say the Spirit of God was a person?

If not then making such presumptions could be insulting to God and those who fear Him should not do such things.

[Faith First]

Act 5:3  But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Act 5:4  Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart?thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

It is clear here that the Holy Ghost is God.

[Faith First]

JESUS IS JEHOVAH
         
         JEHOVAH                                      JESUS

I AMEXODUS 3:14                     I AM  JOHN 8:57&58
FIRST & LASTISA 44:6,48:12     FIRST & LAST  REV 22:12,13,20  1:8  MIC 5:2
ROCKDEUT 32:4                        ROCK    1 COR 10:4
KINGISAIHA 33:22                     KING    REV 19:11-16
CREATORISA 40:28                   CREATOREPH 3:9  JOHN 1:3  COL 1:16
SAVIORISA 33:22,  43:11,12    SAVIORACTS 4:12  MATH 1:21  LK 2:11
JUDGEISA 33:22                       JUDGEJOHN 5:22
God  Isa 12:2                            God    John 20:28

Heb 1:6  ..And let all the angels of God worship him (Christ).

Mat 28:9  And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him (Jesus).

[NickHassan]

Hi FF,
No Jesus is the Son of God.
He said so.
So did God.

Mk 1
“11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. “
Should we prefer the derivations of men to the spoken words of God?

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 02 2006,01:22)

Hi FF, No Jesus is the Son of God. He said so. So did God. Mk 1 “11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. “ Should we prefer the derivations of men to the spoken words of God?

We are also sons of God

Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

Job 2:1
[ Job Loses His Health ] Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 2:1-3 (in Context) Job 2 (Whole Chapter)
Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang togetherAnd all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:6-8 (in Context) Job 38 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 5:9
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Matthew 5:8-10 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 20:36
for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-37 (in Context) Luke 20 (Whole Chapter)
Romans 8:14
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:13-15 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter)
Romans 8:19
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
Romans 8:18-20 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter)
10.Galatians 3:26
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

[NickHassan]

Amen m42,
One family in One God united by One Spirit.
Creation purified in God's crucible to be perfect.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Amen m42, One family in One God united by One Spirit. Creation purified in God's crucible to be perfect.

Amazing NH.

He claims the Holy Spirit is Jesus, of couse if it is as he says then the Holy Spirit would be a person. Jesus! But you say nothing about it.

LOL

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
The captain of our salvation was filled with and led by the Spirit of God.
So we should follow him.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi m42 You say….

Quote

There were three main arguments posited by the creed makers that attended the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD that personalized God's holy pneuma. The allusions by Jesus to the sending by him of the “Advisor” in John 14-16, the “baptismal family” of Matthew 28:18, and the “Spirit” verses found in Romans 8:26-27. We will look at all of them in detail but by far the most important to them are the “Advisor” verses of John. Most remain unaware that in the New Testament times, God's holy pneuma and Jesus are sometimes used interchangeably. A good example is found by comparing Mark 13:11 with Luke 21:15. Mark records it thus: But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand what you shall speak, but whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you that speak but the Holy Spirit (pneuma) (NKJV). Now notice Luke's parallel found in Luke 21:15:

First of all to recite quotes or to elude to the descisions or actions of what the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD did, and then use that to slam or discredit believers 1625 years later for their Faith, is simply a straw mans desperate attempt to add validity to what is already weak.

Great reading, but not canonical.

I base my faith on what we have today. The scriptures in the purist form possible.

Your thesis on the subject of the Holy Spirit is obviously as far as the east is from the west compared to the Trinitarian view.

So because of this our premise is totally different, and our approach to the scriptures is forieghn.

For instance, you use Mark 13:11 with Luke 21:15 to prove your view that the Holy Ghost is Jesus. On the other hand Trinitarians view this as support for the Trinitarian view that the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit is one but not the same.

Jesus is not making a contradictory statement, neither is he claiming to be the Holy Ghost.

Why would our Lord be so vague regarding the Comforter?  

To use this as proof that Jesus and the Spirit are the same person is like saying that the Father and Jesus is the same person when he said to Philip in Jn 14:9…

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

You Say…

Quote

You say….. The nuances of the above parallel are worth developing. How was it that Jesus became the “holy spirit (pneuma)” or the “spirit (pneuma) of truth”? You will notice that the above stated parallel equates Jesus as the “Holy Spirit” during the time of his envoy's persecution. This occurred after the establishment and the progression of the ekklesia, i.e., after Pentecost (Acts 2:1) and after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. The promise, however, was made by Jesus to them before his death as referenced above. Jesus made the statement to his disciples just before his death that he would not leave them orphans but would send them “another” (Greek, allon (allon) i.e., another of the same kind) “advisor” (also rendered “Comforter,” “Helper,” “Counselor,” depending on the translation), i.e., the “spirit (pneuma) of truth.” As previously mentioned, these references to the “advisor” are used by Trinitarians to prove that the “Holy Spirit” is another person of deity. They do this by their commentaries, of course, and by capitalizing both “spirit” and “truth” as well as “comforter.” However, Jesus is referring to himself and the message that he carried that would return to them in the form of an “advisor” viz, the “spirit of truth”! A definition of “advisor” or “comforter” is in order. It comes from the Greek word paraklhtoV (parakletos). Vine defines it as follows. “parakletos… lit., called to one's side, i.e., to one's aid, is primarily a verbal adjective, and suggests the capability or adaptability for giving aid. It was used in a court of justice to denote one who pleads another's cause, an intercessor, advocate, as in 1 John 2:1, of the Lord Jesus.”64

Where does the scripture say that Jesus became the Holy Spirit? And why would Jesus not tell his disciples right up front I’m going away but I will come to you as the Comforter?

Jesus makes it plain the Comforter is Another….

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another [allos] Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even] the Spirit of truth; whom [hos] the world cannot receive, because it seeth him [parakletos]

allos
another, other

hos
who, which, what, that

Read these scriptures and try to explain to me how Jesus was speaking of himself!

Jn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Jn 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Based on these you say Jesus will send  himself and testifiy of himself.

Jn16:13-15
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
[14] He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
[15] All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

One God = Father, Son and Holy Spirit

****Looking in the mirror, not liking what you see,****

               Explain it all away my friend,

                   Hes still the Trinity!!!

[Author]

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