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Quote (t8 @ Nov. 19 2006,02:48) Let's test the theory that Jesus is part of God. John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.translates as:
John 3:16
For the Father, Son, Holy Spirit so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.So now we have 4 identities including 2 sons and one of the sons is the son of the other 3 members including the first son.
OK the Trinity didn't work with John 3:16.
Or maybe we could explain it by saying that the Trinity is beyond our comprehension? That way we can say it did work.
sigh…. as I have pointed out before t8, the Son was not a son until He (the Word) was born as a son.Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 20 2006,03:36) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 19 2006,08:13) Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 20 2006,01:00) When They (God) created everything in the beginning there were 3.
To Oxy.“They” is God and the son, not the Trinity.
So when God says “Let us make man in our image” it is the Father talking to the Son. To put it another way, God talking to the Word (Logos). God created everything through his Word, so it makes sense that God would say “Let us make man in our image”.
For it is written:
Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus ChristI count 2 in this verse: God and Jesus Christ. They are not counted as 1 God. God is clearly the Father.
If you don't believe that the Father is the only true God, then look at the following scripture:
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.John 14:1
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.If those three witnesses do not convince you, then I give you a fourth:
Colossians 1:3
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,I would also like to say that I am not being rediculous, I am quoting scripture and testing a teaching against it. This is not rediculous, it is what we should all be doing.
Now if you see God as the Father, then there are no gaps to fill in. Scripture makes perfect sense. God is the Father. God has a son and the term Father makes perfect sense in that context. The son of God has a God and that God is our God.
John 20:17
I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.2 Corinthians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,Look what John writes:
1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.This is what I believe and the Trinity doctrine has no place in scripture, so it has no room in my faith with God. Rather I see such doctrines as residing in the imaginations of men. Men who by their nature cannot help themselves when it comes to creating idols and making God fit their own understanding.
But a person who truly seeks truth, lets God reveal it to him. He doesn't need cleverly devised fables.
Not so t8, the Son was never a son before He was born as such. Before His birth He was the Word of God, He was with God and He was God.
Not so?I even said that God created all things through the Word. Did you not see that.
I also supplied scripture that says that all things were created through Jesus Christ.
So how is it then that God didn't create all things through Jesus Christ the son of God.
I only quoted scripture and you hardened your heart toward scripture not me. In this your heart has been exposed.
If you want to argue that Jesus wasn't the son of God before he came to earth, then that is different Trinity than what the majority believe, however you cannot say that God didn't create all things through Jesus Christ as you are butting heads with scripture, not me.
When it comes to that, I know that the truth will win and has already won.
Scripture is what I listen to. Doctrines and fables of men I will not entertain, rather I condemn them to destruction where all lies will end up.
Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 20 2006,03:50) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 19 2006,02:48) Let's test the theory that Jesus is part of God. John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.translates as:
John 3:16
For the Father, Son, Holy Spirit so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.So now we have 4 identities including 2 sons and one of the sons is the son of the other 3 members including the first son.
OK the Trinity didn't work with John 3:16.
Or maybe we could explain it by saying that the Trinity is beyond our comprehension? That way we can say it did work.
sigh…. as I have pointed out before t8, the Son was not a son until He (the Word) was born as a son.
To Oxy.God created all things through Jesus Christ.
Are you saying that God didn't?
Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 19 2006,08:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 19 2006,08:35) Hi Oxy, You quote
“(KJV+) For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead2320 bodily.”The Godhead is the trinity to you.
So the Godhead dwells in Jesus?So the trinity dwells in Jesus?
Father Son and Spirit in the Son???
Three into one makes four in this case?
Yes Nick, “(KJV+) For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead2320 bodily.” is what Scripture says. The Father, the Word and the Spirit.Nice of you to concede that the Bible mentions a Godhead
Hi oxy,
I have brought up the thread on godhead and it's multiple greek roots referring to divine nature, not any trinity. It has been hijacked to mean trinity by men who promote such worldly views of God.Quote (t8 @ Nov. 19 2006,08:59) Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 20 2006,03:50) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 19 2006,02:48) Let's test the theory that Jesus is part of God. John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.translates as:
John 3:16
For the Father, Son, Holy Spirit so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.So now we have 4 identities including 2 sons and one of the sons is the son of the other 3 members including the first son.
OK the Trinity didn't work with John 3:16.
Or maybe we could explain it by saying that the Trinity is beyond our comprehension? That way we can say it did work.
sigh…. as I have pointed out before t8, the Son was not a son until He (the Word) was born as a son.
To Oxy.God created all things through Jesus Christ.
Are you saying that God didn't?
t8 I'm not saying that at all. Of course all things were created by the Word. My comment was aimed at the fact that the Word only became the Son at birth. Prior to being born as Jesus He was the Word of God. Scripture doesn't show that the Word was the Son, but rather that the Word became the Son.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 19 2006,19:12) Hi Oxy,
Can you expound 1Jn 4. 9-10 for us.
Thanks Nick, that's not a hard task. First, let's look at the verses.1Jo 4:9 In this the love of God was revealed in us, because God sent His only begotten Son into the world that we might live through Him.
1Jo 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation concerning our sins.First, let's look at the word begotten. Here's how Strongs Concordance explains it.
G3439
μονογενής
monogenēs
mon-og-en-ace
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: – only (begotten, child).The Word was born as the Son of God, sent by God for our sakes. The Word of God was not born in the beginning and was therefore not a son. God sent the Word to the world as His Son, born of Mary. The Word of God was not a child in the beginning, but was with God and was God.
Those verses were written after the event, so in hind sight, yes, God sent His Son.
To Oxy.
Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 20 2006,13:33) t8 I'm not saying that at all. Of course all things were created by the Word. My comment was aimed at the fact that the Word only became the Son at birth. Prior to being born as Jesus He was the Word of God. Scripture doesn't show that the Word was the Son, but rather that the Word became the Son.
OK fair enough, but I fail to see how that changes anything of what I wrote and what is being discussed.God created all things through Jesus Christ as it is written.
God and Jesus Christ/The Word makes two identities does it not?Notice scripture says that it was God that created all things through Christ. So if the Father, Son, Holy Spirit created all things through the son, we end up with 4 again and 2 sons. So that one of the sons created all things in partnership with the other 2 members through their son. So Jesus ends up being the son of the Father, Son, Spirit. So that also means that he is the son of the Son.
Now you may say that I am being a tad ridiculous, and I agree that it is ridiculous. That is why I am ready to expose the lie of the Trinity doctrine anytime, any place. It is a ridiculous doctrine and I say that with all confidence, knowing full well that what scripture teaches about God.
I prefer to stick to scripture or/and that which God has revealed. The imaginations of men will always make idols. It is in the fallen nature of man to do so.
How many people really check out all things to see if they are written? Some who come here fail that test every time they start pushing doctrines from their cults, denominations, and Greek philosophy.
That is sad for them and they are accountable for all that they teach and say.
Hi Oxy,
You say about 1Jn 4.9-10
“The Word was born as the Son of God, sent by God for our sakes. The Word of God was not born in the beginning and was therefore not a son. God sent the Word to the world as His Son, born of Mary. The Word of God was not a child in the beginning, but was with God and was God.”Scripture does not say God sent the Word into the world to become His Son.
It says He sent His son into the world.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 20 2006,11:10) Hi Oxy,
You say about 1Jn 4.9-10
“The Word was born as the Son of God, sent by God for our sakes. The Word of God was not born in the beginning and was therefore not a son. God sent the Word to the world as His Son, born of Mary. The Word of God was not a child in the beginning, but was with God and was God.”Scripture does not say God sent the Word into the world to become His Son.
It says He sent His son into the world.
That's true Nick, the Word was sent to the world, but the Son was not sent into the world until He had grown up.That's just another way of looking at it. But really, there is no mention that I have found of the Word of God being a Son until such time as He was born/begotten. There is no “Mrs God” for God to have a Son. A son, as described by the dictionary, is born/begotten, given birth to. That did not happen to the Word until He was born of Mary.
Hi Oxy,
Why would you compare the begettal of the Word with the birth of a man?Ps 2
” 7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 'Do you think the image of God could have had any other derivation than from God alone? Since he is described as the THE MONOGENES SON do you think the genes of Mary contributed to the glorious being, the Son of God?
What of the other sons of God who are shown in Jb 1,2,38 and gen 6. Do you say they also needed to be conceived?
Where is the sending of the Son into the world while on earth recorded in scripture?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 20 2006,20:56) Hi Oxy,
Why would you compare the begettal of the Word with the birth of a man?Ps 2
” 7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 'Do you think the image of God could have had any other derivation than from God alone? Since he is described as the THE MONOGENES SON do you think the genes of Mary contributed to the glorious being, the Son of God?
What of the other sons of God who are shown in Jb 1,2,38 and gen 6. Do you say they also needed to be conceived?
Where is the sending of the Son into the world while on earth recorded in scripture?
Nick, that verse is prophetic.The word sons as used in Job is loosely translated and can mean simply a builder of a subject/nation, having an affiliation. It used very widely.
Hi Oxy,
So God's begotten Son and His created sons that existed before the foundations of the earth were laid were not really sons but it was just a turn of phrase? Your argument is again with scripture.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 20 2006,23:45) Hi Oxy,
So God's begotten Son and His created sons that existed before the foundations of the earth were laid were not really sons but it was just a turn of phrase? Your argument is again with scripture.
Well that seems to be a matter of opinion Nick, and certainly one I do not share.Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.
It doesn't say And the Son became flesh. It says the Word became flesh, the only begotten of the Father. Begotten means born. That usually involves a woman. In this case her name was Mary.
Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 21 2006,05:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 20 2006,23:45) Hi Oxy,
So God's begotten Son and His created sons that existed before the foundations of the earth were laid were not really sons but it was just a turn of phrase? Your argument is again with scripture.
Well that seems to be a matter of opinion Nick, and certainly one I do not share.Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.
It doesn't say And the Son became flesh. It says the Word became flesh, the only begotten of the Father. Begotten means born. That usually involves a woman. In this case her name was Mary.
HI Oxy,
Wrong quote for what you are trying to say.“ONLY BEGOTTEN is one word in Greek, Monogenes, and it does not simply relate to birth.
It is not even that closely related to the greek word for birth or begettal.
[ see the thread on mongenes for more on this].The following verses indicate that Christ is both Lord and God.
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Rev 22:8-9 indicates that worship belongs only to God
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.Scripture mentions numerous examples of Christ accepting worship.
Luk 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
The scripture is very clear that Christ is God and is worthy of worship.
Quote Posted: Nov. 25 2006,12:10 ——————————————————————————–
The following verses indicate that Christ is both Lord and God.Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Rev 22:8-9 indicates that worship belongs only to God
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.Scripture mentions numerous examples of Christ accepting worship.
Luk 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
The scripture is very clear that Christ is God and is worthy of worship.
Welcome Faith First!
Amen to your Post. You are right.
But your views will not be very well accepted here, they will seek to tear down your belief!
Blessings!
CHRIST WAS GOD (JEHOVAH) OF THE OLD TESTAMENT
John 1:18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Genesis 17:1 The Almighty God (Christ) appeared to Abraham
Genesis 26:24 God (Christ) appeared to Isaac
Genesis 32:30 Jacob saw God (Christ) face to face
Exodus 33:11 The Lord (Christ) spoke to Moses face to face
Exodus 6:3 Jehovah (Christ) appeared to Abraham Isaac and Jacob
Genesis 19:24 Two Lords destroying Sodom and Gomorrah. One (Christ) that was on the Earth with Abraham and the other in heaven
Quote John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. Hi faith first. First, looking at the first part of that verse,
LUKE 23:8
“When Herod saw Jesus…”1 COR 9:1
“Have I not seen Jesus…”Moses once expressed the desire to see God. At Exodus 33:18-20, we read
“‘Cause me [Moses] to see, please, your glory.’ But he [God] said: ‘I myself shall cause all my goodness to pass before your face, and I will declare the name of Jehovah before you; and I will favor the one whom I may favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I may show mercy.’ And he added: ‘You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.’”What God permitted Moses to see was His passing glory. Verses 21-23 state:“And Jehovah said further: ‘Here is a place with me, and you must station yourself upon the rock. And it has to occur that while my glory is passing by I must place you in a hole in the rock, and I must put my palm over you as a screen until I have passed by. After that I must take my palm away, and you will indeed see my back. But my face may not be seen.’”
In harmony with what Jehovah told Moses and what the apostle John said, Moses saw no materialization or material form of God. All that Moses saw was the afterglow of the divine presence passing by. Even then he had to be divinely protected. Obviously, it was not God himself that Moses saw.
When Moses spoke to God “face to face,” as stated at Exodus 33:11, he was not in visual contact with Jehovah. This expression indicates the manner in which Moses communicated with God, not what he saw.
When Moses talked with God and received instructions from him, the communication was not through visions, as was often the case with other prophets. This is noted at Numbers 12:6-8, where we read
“He went on to say: ‘Hear my words, please. If there came to be a prophet of yours for Jehovah, it would be in a vision I would make myself known to him. In a dream I would speak to him. Not so my servant Moses! He is being entrusted with all my house. Mouth to mouth I speak to him, thus showing him, and not by riddles; and the appearance of Jehovah is what he beholds.’”
” In what sense did Moses behold “the appearance of Jehovah”?Moses beheld “the appearance of Jehovah” when he, Aaron, and certain other men were on Mount Sinai. At Exodus 24:10, it is written:
“They got to see the God of Israel. And under his feet there was what seemed like a work of sapphire flagstones and like the very heavens for purity.”
But how did Moses and the other men get to “see the God of Israel,” since God had told him, “No man may see me and yet live”? Verse 11 explains, for it says: : “He did not put out his hand against the distinguished men of the sons of Israel, but they got a vision of the true God and ate and drank.”So the appearance of God that Moses and the others saw was by means of a vision.
It has not been necessary for the great Creator of the universe to come down from his lofty place in the heavens in order to deliver messages to certain humans. Aside from the three recorded instances when God’s own voice was heard while his Son was on the earth, Jehovah has always used angels to transmit His messages. (Matthew 3:17; 17:5; John 12:28) Even the Law that God gave to the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai was transmitted by angels, although Moses was represented as talking directly with God himself. Regarding this, the apostle Paul wrote:
“Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.”—Galatians 3:19.That Moses actually spoke with an angel who was personally representing God is also indicated at Acts 7:38, which states:
“This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our forefathers.”That angel was the personal spokesman for Jehovah God, the Creator, and so he spoke to Moses as if God himself were speaking.
The angel who delivered God’s message to Moses at the burning thornbush was also a spokesman. He is identified as Jehovah’s angel at Exodus 3:2, where we are told:
“Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush.”
Verse 4 says“When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush.”
In verse 6, this angelic spokesman for God said:: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” —Exodus 4:10.
So when speaking with this personal representative of God, Moses spoke as if he were speaking to Jehovah himself.In the 6th chapter of Judges, we find another example of a man speaking to God through an angelic representative. Verse 11 identifies the message bearer as “Jehovah’s angel.” There we read:
“Later Jehovah’s angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while Gideon his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Midian.”
This messenger, “Jehovah’s angel,” is thereafter represented as if he were Jehovah God himself. In verses 14 and 15, we read:
: “Upon that Jehovah faced [Gideon] and said: ‘Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Midian’s palm. Do I not send you?’ In turn he said to him: ‘Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel?’”
So the materialized angel seen by Gideon and with whom he spoke is represented in the Biblical account as if he were God himself. In verse 22, Gideon says:“I have seen Jehovah’s angel face to face!”
The angel spoke precisely what God told him to speak. Therefore, Gideon spoke with God through this angelic spokesman.
Consider, too, the case of Manoah and his wife, the parents of Samson. This account also speaks of the angelic messenger as “Jehovah’s angel” and “the angel of the true God.” (Judges 13:2-18) In verse 22, Manoah says to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.” Although he did not actually see Jehovah God, Manoah felt that way because he had seen the materialized personal spokesman for God.
Now it is possible to understand why Abraham addressed the materialized angelic spokesman of God as if he were talking to Jehovah God himself. Since this angel spoke precisely what God wanted to have said to Abraham and was there personally representing Him, the Biblical record could say that “Jehovah appeared to him.”—Genesis 18:1.
Remember that an angelic spokesman for God could transmit His messages just as precisely as a telephone or a radio can transmit our words to another person. Hence, it can be understood how Abraham, Moses, Manoah, and others could speak with a materialized angel as if they were talking to God. While such individuals were able to see these angels and the glory of Jehovah reflected by them, they were not able to see God. Therefore, this in no way contradicts the apostle John’s statement:
“No man has seen God at any time.” (John 1:18)What these men saw were angelic representatives and not God himself.
david
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