- This topic has 523 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 17 years, 10 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2007,18:25) Hi m42,
Pasting the same post in several threads without need or request is regarded as spamming.
OK – One of the primary tnenets of the doctrine of the Trinity is the dual-natue of Christ or ascerting that Jesus is God. All three of these threads hang on the same proofs of those doctrines. All posts I have read by trinitarians center around these comncepts of triune God and dual nature.I would believe my post to be applicable to all of these posts in all three threads.
The main focus of this forum is to discuss these and other issues.
This post was not directed to a particular person, but rather a response to the general request for discussion on these subjects.
Does it make any difference if i go back and change the wording while saying the same thing? (other then taking up lots of time)If it is a matter of requesting response in the trinity thread, that I will concede as seeming like Spamming. I was simply trying to bring all those interested in discussing the subjet of my post (which applies to all three threads) into one thread.
Hi m42,
Perhaps the care that Jesus took in what he said on these matters relates to what you say.His situation was unique. He had divine origins but did not come with that glory or in those powers and he presented himself preferably as son of man rather than Son of God. He did not want the confusion that has since arisen due to this fact by the poor understanding of this matter.
After the Jordan those who saw and heard him saw and heard God in him as well. So he did not declare himself to be just a man lest the messages from God through him were not taken seriously. Likewise he did not declare too openly God within him lest he gave them proper excuse to stone him.
He walked a narrow line of doing everything possible to highlight God and minimise his own importance as a vessel for God. Sadly that careful reticence has added fuel to the confusion of those who never understood God or his mission and now mix him up with God. But God uses these things to sift men.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2007,19:59) Hi m42,
Perhaps the care that Jesus took in what he said on these matters relates to what you say.His situation was unique. He had divine origins but did not come with that glory or in those powers and he presented himself preferably as son of man rather than Son of God. He did not want the confusion that has since arisen due to this fact by the poor understanding of this matter.
After the Jordan those who saw and heard him saw and heard God in him as well. So he did not declare himself to be just a man lest the messages from God through him were not taken seriously. Likewise he did not declare too openly God within him lest he gave them proper excuse to stone him.
He walked a narrow line of doing everything possible to highlight God and minimise his own importance as a vessel for God. Sadly that careful reticence has added fuel to the confusion of those who never understood God or his mission and now mix him up with God. But God uses these things to sift men.
We agree to a measure —
It is my contention that Jesus was born as Adam with full dominion over the Earth. He was born inocent but not yet perfect.
Secondly there came a point after Jesus had been perfected by what He suffered and grew in stature and wisdom before God and Man, that God installed on him the mantle of all authority in heaven and Earth. It was in this authority from His Father that he operated.
It is clear that at least half of His genetic code came from Mary. It is concievable [this is speculation] that God created a human seed to inpregnate Mary. The seed had to be human because any other combination denies Mary as his mother or causes a hybrid creature neither fully human or fully deity. It would also contradict the very clear scriptures stating He is a man.Those that had eyes to see saw Jesus fullfill one of His mandates as a prophet and understood the fact that God himself would at times speak first person through him.
The temperment of the time was the Greeks were looking for an inticing bit of philosophy to debate. The Hebrews were looking for a great sign. What they got was a man who walked in the dominion that God designed him to have. In addition He walked in the character traits of His father. When he said he came in his father's name, Hebrews new he was speaking of the character traits of his father. That is the meaning of name to Hebrews.
Hi m42,
Christ was called christ because he was anointed from on High with the knowledge and nature and powers of God to fulfill his works. We too can follow him into his death and resurrection and be anointed from above and made able to do the same.In fact it is essential.
Lk 24
“49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. “Because
Without the anointing we can do nothing.
Without the anointing we cannot learn.
Without the anointing we can understand nothing.
Without the anointing we are powerless.
Without the anointing we cannot follow Christ.Copying him in our own strength is folly.
Hi m42,
Jesus was a man as shown in multiple scriptures.
To be a man he had to meet several criteria.
He had to have a perishable human body.
He had to be body, soul and spirit.
He had to be mortal.He was all these things.
Man is MADE IN THE IMAGE of God but God has no such body and so the likeness is as to the inner man. Christ too as Word is the image of God so that similarity also is as soul\spirit.
So Christ always was a vessel and to become like to us he had to be emptied of glory and advantage and partake of flesh. He himself declared he was son of man or Adam so that he affirmed his genetic origins as man included Mary .
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2007,21:26) Hi m42,
Jesus was a man as shown in multiple scriptures.
To be a man he had to meet several criteria.
He had to have a perishable human body.
He had to be body, soul and spirit.
He had to be mortal.He was all these things.
Man is MADE IN THE IMAGE of God but God has no such body and so the likeness is as to the inner man. Christ too as Word is the image of God so that similarity also is as soul\spirit.
So Christ always was a vessel and to become like to us he had to be emptied of glory and advantage and partake of flesh. He himself declared he was son of man or Adam so that he affirmed his genetic origins as man included Mary .
Well we will disagree here —
I do not believe Jesus preexisted in any form prior to his birth. To do so would invalidate him being completely human.
As to giving up advantage, I believe the opposite is true.
Jesus is again compared to Adam
Gen 3-4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!
5″For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Adam and Eve seeing the fruit was good to eat, set out to meet their own needs. They had freedom to choose and chose to be as God’s deciding for themselves what was right and wrong for them. They chose to make themselves equal with God! They partook of the knowledge of good and evil.
Much was lost at the fall. Man gave up dominion over the earth. The naimals no longer obeyed, weeds and thorns grew in their crops they began to die and be sick. The genetic code began to break down ect. For this reason Jesus had to have at least partial human stock, that had not been corrupted by the effects of the fall. the only source of unaltered or undamaged stock had to come from the same sorce as Adams. God himself.Now we see, in comparison, Jesus and how he acted ——————–
Philippines 2
Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
4do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
The preceding verses are not about the Godhead, but rather about becoming like Christ.
——– Jesus was in the form of God. Created in the image and likeness of God like all other men. He was a complete man in his makeup. Yet Jesus never partook of the knowledge of Good and Evil, therefore had the ability to have the fullness of God dwelling in him. Paul is specific in his use of the word “form”. If he had wanted to say Jesus was a God he could have simply said Jesus was a God! He acted in complete agreement with His Father’s characteristics and therefore had a form of God. When Jesus appeared, he appeared as a man. This was not what the Jews expected. They expected a great sign and wonder and got instead a man in appearance and make up.Jesus knew who he was. He knew he was the heir to the thrown of God and a son of God with full authority of the Father given to Him. Even with this knowledge and power, Jesus did not seek equality with God and did not use his freedom or power to meet his own needs. Satan tempted him in this very area. “Make the stones into bread”. Most of us would have opened a bakery, yet Jesus refused to use his authority to meet his own needs. Instead he poured out his needs and desires even unto death for the benefit of his brethren and the glory of God. Jesus walked with dominion as Adam did before the fall. He calmed the seas, healed the sick, made gold apear in the mouths of fishes, and made fish swim into the nets of the disciples. He even said (based on his authority) he could call down 10 legions of angels, but refused to use his power, authority or rights in opposition to the will of God. For this reason was he exalted. He was not exalted into his own glory but to the glory of the Father. Though he had all authority in heaven and earth and exercised a form of God he did not use it for his own needs or even to save himself. (First Adam compared to last Adam- Man compared to Man)
Hi m42
” 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”
He was in the form of God[not man]
He could have grasped equality with God[not man]then
He emptied himself[we cannot]
He became a bondservant[chose obedience]then
He was then found in the likeness of men[not before]
He humbled himself[human subservience to God]
Unto deathNick you are taking those verses out of context –
The previous verses say in which way Christ emptied Himself —
Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
4do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.We can empty ourselves in this way —
Secondly you are thinking in step logic. Hebrews do not write or think in step logic but rather in block logic. In other words they write a group of things as occuring at the same time not in a sequemce or order.
Quote (music4two @ Jan. 26 2007,01:22) Nick you are taking those verses out of context –
The previous verses say in which way Christ emptied Himself —
Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
4do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.We can empty ourselves in this way —
Hi m42,
They speak of an ATTITUDE as the verse says IMHO.And the meek and humble and gentle Son of God
began
and continued
and persisted
in the same faithful, trusting and submissive attitude from his origins and forever.“Jesus Christ is the same
yesterday
today
and forever.”Quote (music4two @ Jan. 26 2007,01:28) Secondly you are thinking in step logic. Hebrews do not write or think in step logic but rather in block logic. In other words they write a group of things as occuring at the same time not in a sequemce or order.
Hi m42,
Nonetheless we are not in the form of God nor in any possible position to challenge God for equality and nor are we able to empty ourselves spiritually so these do not apply to men, including Christ as a man of earth, but to the man from heaven.
“5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus”
Emptying ourselves does not mean a change of attitude IMHO.Quote (music4two @ Jan. 26 2007,01:22) Nick you are taking those verses out of context –
The previous verses say in which way Christ emptied Himself —
Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
4do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.We can empty ourselves in this way —
Hi Music4two:I agree with this and also as Philippians 2:7 states of Jesus, “He made himself to reputation”. He ate with sinners. He did not try to exalt himself because of his position in the body of Christ. As the Apostle paul says, “But by the grace of God I am what I am.” (1 Co. 15:10)
God Bless
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2007,01:42) Quote (music4two @ Jan. 26 2007,01:28) Secondly you are thinking in step logic. Hebrews do not write or think in step logic but rather in block logic. In other words they write a group of things as occuring at the same time not in a sequemce or order.
Hi m42,
Nonetheless we are not in the form of God nor in any possible position to challenge God for equality and nor are we able to empty ourselves spiritually so these do not apply to men, including Christ as a man of earth, but to the man from heaven.
“5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus”
Emptying ourselves does not mean a change of attitude IMHO.
I'm tired so this will be short.
Partaking of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is basically becoming our own God. we have the knowledge of good and evil and chose for ourselves what is right and wrong. Chosing what is right and wrong for us is not our right, but is the right of God.
This is the temptation Satan placed before Adam and Eve. He said you shall be as Gods. (equal with God)
The difference between the first and the second Adam was Jesus never took it into His own hands to rule his own life's choices. He always defered His choices to the will of God. He never looked at God and said, “I will make my own choice without you”. He never partook of the knowledge of Good and Evil. He never assumed that or took that right from God. Like all men, he had free will choice to allow God to rule His life or to rule it himself. He chose God.Hi m42,
In Eden Adam and Eve obeyed and served Satan and made him their god thus severing their relationship with the one true God. Sin began it's rule within man and death was the result.They acquired knowledge that was unwise for them outside of a relationship with God because only within that relationship could they obtain the grace to respond approprately to that knowledge.
Conscience without grace and under the powerful influence of sin within caused man to become frustrated and anxious and a liar to himself.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2007,18:59) Hi m42,
In Eden Adam and Eve obeyed and served Satan and made him their god thus severing their relationship with the one true God. Sin began it's rule within man and death was the result.They acquired knowledge that was unwise for them outside of a relationship with God because only within that relationship could they obtain the grace to respond approprately to that knowledge.
Conscience without grace and under the powerful influence of sin within caused man to become frustrated and anxious and a liar to himself.
Are you a calvinist? Do you believe in the therory of depravity of man and original sin passed on to later generations?Quote (942767 @ Jan. 26 2007,03:51) Quote (music4two @ Jan. 26 2007,01:22) Nick you are taking those verses out of context –
The previous verses say in which way Christ emptied Himself —
Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
4do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.We can empty ourselves in this way —
Hi Music4two:I agree with this and also as Philippians 2:7 states of Jesus, “He made himself to reputation”. He ate with sinners. He did not try to exalt himself because of his position in the body of Christ. As the Apostle paul says, “But by the grace of God I am what I am.” (1 Co. 15:10)
God Bless
Hi Music42 and Nick:I believe that verse 3 & 4 are key in understanding how we can empty ourselves of those things mentioned in that we do not do them for self-gain or self recognition but we do them to glorify God.
God Bless
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 19 2007,13:46) Quote Well, if he did not come as God, then he was NOT GOD! Case closed! Jesus is not Almighty GOD! Isn't that what we have always said!
Its encouraging to see that you have finally realized this!
LOL
AP
This really shows me a lot.
You take my sarcasim and use it aganst me.
Thanks for your meaning less response!
It truly follows the path of those who have no response!
Blessings
LOLYou were caught in your own craftiness.
T8, how do i add closing words to my posts, like your:
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…”?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
