Jesus Christ is God

[david]

I know. I agree with most of what you say. I'm just saying that I'm not sure this scripture can in good conscience be used as a primary scripture for refruting the false trinity belief.

There are so many others.

This scripture, as far as I can tell speaks of idol gods, (false gods) and then says that there is really only God, in contrast to these false gods, who aren't really “mighty ones” at all; and there is one Lord, Jesus.
In that sense, that it clearly distinguishes Jesus from the Father, it is a good scripture to refrute trinity. But I'm not certain that when it says: those called gods whether in heaven or on earth…I'm not sure Jesus can rightfully be lumped into that category….in good conscience.

Everything else the scriptures tell us indicate that he could be, but the context makes me question using it that way. Do you understand what I'm saying?

I mean, this was one of my very favorite scriptures when ever someone brought up the trinity. I still use it, but I try not to misuse it or bend it to say something it may not say.

david

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
In the verse the role of the father in the lives of those in Christ is contrasted with the role of Jesus.
Some would have loved the verse to read
“For us there is one God and two or three persons”
Or
“For us there are three gods in one and three lords”
Or
“For us there is one God and three persons in that God”

But instead the Father ALONE is named as our God and the Lordship of Jesus under him is established according to the divine order of authority.

So again those who promote Jesus as our God are showing that this verse does not apply to them. They are not then, by definition, in Christ Jesus.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 16 2007,00:55)

Hi david, In the verse the role of the father in the lives of those in Christ is contrasted with the role of Jesus. Some would have loved the verse to read “For us there is one God and two or three persons” Or “For us there are three gods in one and three lords” Or “For us there is one God and three persons in that God” But instead the Father ALONE is named as our God and the Lordship of Jesus under him is established according to the divine order of authority. So again those who promote Jesus as our God are showing that this verse does not apply to them. They are not then, by definition, in Christ Jesus.

Let’s assume that Paul’s intended conveyance in writing 1 Cor 8:6 was that The Father is exclusively “God” and Yahshua is exclusively “Lord”, and that these appellations denote unique and disparate ontological categories. If you hold to this then you will find many, many irreconcilable contradictions in the Bible. Why is Yahshua explicitly called “God” in NT scripture and the Father “Lord”.  Why is Yahshua Thomas’ God? Surely he (Thomas) is one of the “us” Paul mentioned?

The NT writers frequently used ‘kurios’ in reference to the Father and ‘theos’ in reference to Jesus. Luke, for instance, showed a remarkable ambiguity in the use of this term relative to Jesus and the Father (e.g. The Father – Luke 1:15, 16, 32, 46; 2:22…The Son – 2:11, 5:8, 5:12, 6:5, 6:46, 7:6, 7:13, 7:19, 9:54, 9:59, 9:61…).

If 1 Cor 8:6 proves that The Father is “God” in an exclusive sense then it then by that logic it would also prove that the Son is “Lord” in an exclusive sense. What then would we make of a passage like this:

Mark 12:29
28One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” 29Jesus answered, “The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD (Kurios) OUR GOD IS ONE LORD (kurios); 30AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD (kurios) YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'

Hmmmm….

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi david, In the verse the role of the father in the lives of those in Christ is contrasted with the role of Jesus. Some would have loved the verse to read “For us there is one God and two or three persons” Or “For us there are three gods in one and three lords” Or “For us there is one God and three persons in that God” But instead the Father ALONE is named as our God and the Lordship of Jesus under him is established according to the divine order of authority. So again those who promote Jesus as our God are showing that this verse does not apply to them. They are not then, by definition, in Christ Jesus.

NH

Of couse you have no other scripture to support your Arian view.

And you misquote It!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Was I quoting or paraphrasing?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
If there is for us ONE TRUE GOD who is the Father then what of those who preach to worship others? Can worshipping a trinity or others such as the Son and the Spirit make them idols for you? Of course it does not change the nature of what is worshipped but we should follow Christ, and he worshipped the Father.

1Jn 5
” 21Little children, keep yourselves from idols”

[david]

Is 1:18, I'm sure there are examples you could point to. But I don't think this is the best one.

Quote

Mark 12:29 28One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” 29Jesus answered, “The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD (Kurios) OUR GOD IS ONE LORD (kurios); 30AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD (kurios) YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'

I don't think Jesus would misquote this scripture. The “LORD” here was most definitely a replacement of God's actual name. Why would Jesus change the quote, especially when he made known the importance of his Father's name? (mat 6:9,10, etc)

davdid

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

don't think Jesus would misquote this scripture. The “LORD” here was most definitely a replacement of God's actual name. Why would Jesus change the quote, especially when he made known the importance of his Father's name? (mat 6:9,10, etc)

David

Can you show me a scripture where Jesus called the Father Jehovah?

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 16 2007,07:26)

… The NT writers frequently used ‘kurios’ in reference to the Father and ‘theos’ in reference to Jesus. Luke, for instance, showed a remarkable ambiguity in the use of this term relative to Jesus and the Father (e.g. The Father – Luke 1:15, 16, 32, 46; 2:22…The Son – 2:11, 5:8, 5:12, 6:5, 6:46, 7:6, 7:13, 7:19, 9:54, 9:59, 9:61…). If 1 Cor 8:6 proves that The Father is “God” in an exclusive sense then it then by that logic it would also prove that the Son is “Lord” in an exclusive sense. What then would we make of a passage like this: Mark 12:29 28One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” 29Jesus answered, “The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD (Kurios) OUR GOD IS ONE LORD (kurios); 30AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD (kurios) YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' Hmmmm….

Read on in Mark 12 …

After Jesus quotes Deut 6:4-5 (The Shema) affirming his strict Jewish monotheistic belief that there is solely ONE GOD;
he then quotes Psalms 110:1 to show in what sense he (that is Jesus) is Lord/kurios!

Remember, since the NT is written in Greek, the word 'kurios' has different meanings depending on the context; it is used to denote a variety of Hebrew words.

Obviously, in examples such as the quotation of Deut 6:4-5, kurios is being used for the Hebrew word denoting GOD's name, the Tetragrammaton, i.e. YHWH;
depicted in our English Bibles as capital 'LORD'.
GOD's name occurs over 6700 times in the OT, however when a OT verse containing GOD's name is quoted in the NT, kurios is used.

In like manner, GOD's title, Adonai; when a OT verse using this Hebrew word is quoted in the NT, again, kurios is used.

Then we have the common Hebrew words used to denote lords, masters and owners, i.e. adon & adoni
(Incidentally, the Hebrew word adoni is never used in ref. to deity; it is solely used to denote human lords and sometimes angels)

Psalms 110:1 is the most quoted OT verse in the NT.
Here we have the ONE GOD, YaHWeH, prophetically inviting a human lord to sit at His right hand
(The Hebrew word adoni is used for the second occurrence of the word 'lord' in this verse!)

So, the LORD GOD invites David's lord/adoni to sit at His right hand!

Thus, after Jesus quotes Deut 6:4 in Mark 12:28-29, he continues …

(Mark 12:35-37)  And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my lord , Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. 37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord [adoni]; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

Jesus had earlier affirmed that there is solely one GOD, YAHWEH. That there is Solely one being/person who is Almighty GOD!
Jesus was no trinitarian, and the scribe obviously did not have a trinitarian understanding either. (See v.32)

Therefore, what Jesus then does, is identify himself from Scripture, as the lord who would one day sit at the right hand of the ONE GOD.
He identifies himself as David's lord, David's adoni.

Again, because the NT is written in Greek, the same Greek word, kurios, is used. However, the context should determine in what sense the word kurios is being used i.e. in this case speaking of the human Lord Messiah.

In like manner, the Greek word kurios, is used for 'lord, master, Sir' etc
Even Pilate is called kurios! So, is Pilate, the LORD GOD???
Of course note, the context determines that kurios is being used to denote Pilate being called 'Sir' as a human lord

Again, the Jewish people (even the common people) understood that adoni is never used in ref. to deity.

Psalms 110.1 is used by both Christ and his disciples to identify who Jesus really is!

On the Day of Pentecost, Peter used it to identify Christ.
I have just quoted where Jesus uses this verse to identify himself.

Yes … Jesus is the one man, the one person, whom the LORD GOD, YAHWEH,
has made both Lord and Christ! [Acts 2.36]

Hence Jesus is the Lord Messiah! [Luke 2.11, Col 3.24]
GOD has made him 'Lord of all' to GOD's glory [Phil 2.11]
It is obvious that in spite of this exaltation Jesus is still subject to GOD, Jesus is not Lord over GOD!
[1 Cor 15.27]

So we have solely ONE GOD, YHWH, the Father
[1 Cor 8.4,6; Mark 12:29, Deut 6.4]
And there is solely one person who has been made Lord of all [Acts 10.36];
hence we have one Lord, namely Jesus the Messiah [1 Cor 8.6]

ONE GOD, YHWH, the Father
ONE Lord, GOD's Son, the man Messiah Jesus! [1 Tim 2.5]

Hence …
(1 Cor 8:5-6)  For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us [THE APOSTOLIC CHURCH]
there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

See also

http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=49

http://www.scatteredsheep.com/lord-lord-lord.htm

[Worshipping Jesus]

AP
You say…

Quote

After Jesus quotes Deut 6:4-5 (The Shema) affirming his strict Jewish monotheistic belief that there is solely ONE GOD;

Of course Jesus is monotheistic, John and Jesus Spoke of the Oneness of God, Theos.

Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jn 10:30
I and my Father are one.

Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding,
that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

You say…

Quote

he then quotes Psalms 110:1 to show in what sense he (that is Jesus) is Lord/kurios! Remember, since the NT is written in Greek, the word 'kurios' has different meanings depending on the context; it is used to denote a variety of Hebrew words. Obviously, in examples such as the quotation of Deut 6:4-5, kurios is being used for the Hebrew word denoting GOD's name, the Tetragrammaton, i.e. YHWH; depicted in our English Bibles as capital 'LORD'. GOD's name occurs over 6700 times in the OT, however when a OT verse containing GOD's name is quoted in the NT, kurios is used. In like manner, GOD's title, Adonai; when a OT verse using this Hebrew word is quoted in the NT, again, kurios is used. Then we have the common Hebrew words used to denote lords, masters and owners, i.e. adon & adoni (Incidentally, the Hebrew word adoni is never used in ref. to deity; it is solely used to denote human lords and sometimes angels)

Your argument here is a straw mans argument being that the second Hebrew word  for Lord in Pss 110:1 that Jesus quotes in  Mk 12:29, is  “adon”.

The same word ‘adon “is used in the following OT scriptures which is definitely applied to Deity. This of course is not all of them.

Exod 23:17
Three items in the year all thy males shall appear before the LORD [Adon] God.

Exod 34:23
Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the LORD  [Adon] God, the God of Israel.
Deut 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord [Adon]  of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
Josh 3:11
Behold, the ark of the covenant of the LORD [Adon]  of all the earth passeth over before you into Jordan.
Josh 3:13
And it shall come to pass, as soon as the soles of the feet of the priests that bear the ark of the LORD, the LORD [adon] of all the earth, shall rest in the waters of Jordan, that the waters of Jordan shall be cut off from the waters that come down from above; and they shall stand upon an heap.
Neh 3:5
And next unto them the Tekoites repaired; but their nobles put not their necks to the work of their LORD  [Adown].
Neh 8:10
Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our LORD [Adown] neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the LORD is your strength.

Pss 8:1
O LORD, our Lord [Adon]  , how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
Pss 8:9
O LORD our Lord [Adon], how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
Pss 97:5
The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord [Adon] of the whole earth.

Pss 114:7
Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the Lord [Adon]  , at the presence of the God of Jacob;
Pss 135:5
For I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord [Adon] is above all gods.

Pss 147:5
Great is our Lord [Adon], and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Isa 1:24
Therefore saith the LORD [Adon] the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:

Isa 3:1
For, behold, the Lord [Adon], the LORD of hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water.

Isa 10:16
Therefore shall the Lord [Adon], the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.

Isa 10:33
Behold, the Lord [Adon], the LORD of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled.

Isa 19:4
And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord [Adon] the LORD of hosts.

Mic 4:13
Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord [Adon] of the whole earth.

Zech 4:14
Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD [Adon] of the whole earth.
Mal 3:1
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD [Adon] whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

You say…

Quote

Psalms 110.1 is used by both Christ and his disciples to identify who Jesus really is! On the Day of Pentecost, Peter used it to identify Christ. I have just quoted where Jesus uses this verse to identify himself.

You are correct. John, Peter, Paul. And Mathew and others all confirmed that Jesus is God in the flesh.

Thomas new who he was, “My Lord and My God”

And Jesus never rebuked him, but blessed him.

Jesus used this scripture knowing full well that “Adon” also referred to the Lord of host, the Almighty.

Jesus is declaring his unity with the Father as God.

I hope you believe them.

You say….

Quote

Hence… (1 Cor 8:5-6)  For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us [THE APOSTOLIC CHURCH] there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

HMMM. “Apostolic Church” must add validity to the Inspired text?       Not.

Oh yes the famous Arian “this is all I have” scripture.

This is no contradiction of the Trinitarian view.

There is but One God…

The Father, of whom are all things
And
The Son, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Jesus truly is God, One with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Unless you want to resort to Polytheism, Jesus is a God. Which many do.  

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
The old “fear of polytheism” still drives the need to form a human and nonbiblical understanding of both God and His Son.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi W, The old “fear of polytheism” still drives the need to form a human and nonbiblical understanding of both God and His Son.

NH

Do you see any fear in my post?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi W, The old “fear of polytheism” still drives the need to form a human and nonbiblical understanding of both God and His Son.

NH

Instead of your weak accusations, why dont you show me where my post is “human or Non-biblical”

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
As soon as you can show me from the bible that God is not one as Jesus affirmed, but rather three, as men teach, then we will know you are teaching the wisdom of God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi W, As soon as you can show me from the bible that God is not one as Jesus affirmed, but rather three, as men teach, then we will know you are teaching the wisdom of God.

NH

Just what I thought!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Repent.

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 17 2007,19:46)

Your argument here is a straw mans argument being that the second Hebrew word  for Lord in Pss 110:1 that Jesus quotes in  Mk 12:29, is  “adon”. The same word ‘adon “is used in the following OT scriptures which is definitely applied to Deity.

WJ, here is some free advice …
Why don't you take the time to actually read what I wrote …
That way you won't waste time writing a fruitless refutation to a strawman's argument which I never made …

Now go back and actually read what I wrote … e.g.

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Jan. 17 2007,12:28)

… Then we have the common Hebrew words used to denote lords, masters and owners, i.e. adon & adoni (Incidentally, the Hebrew word adoni is never used in ref. to deity; it is solely used to denote human lords and sometimes angels) Psalms 110:1 is the most quoted OT verse in the NT. Here we have the ONE GOD, YaHWeH, prophetically inviting a human lord to sit at His right hand (The Hebrew word adoni is used for the second occurrence of the word 'lord' in this verse!) So, the LORD GOD invites David's lord/adoni to sit at His right hand! Thus, after Jesus quotes Deut 6:4 in Mark 12:28-29, he continues … (Mark 12:35-37)  And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my lord , Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. 37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord [adoni]; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly. Jesus …  identifies himself as David's lord, David's adoni. … Again, the Jewish people (even the common people) understood that adoni is never used in ref. to deity. … See also http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=49 http://www.scatteredsheep.com/lord-lord-lord.htm

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Then we have the common Hebrew words used to denote lords, masters and owners, i.e. adon & adoni (Incidentally, the Hebrew word adoni is never used in ref. to deity; it is solely used to denote human lords and sometimes angels) Psalms 110:1 is the most quoted OT verse in the NT. Here we have the ONE GOD, YaHWeH, prophetically inviting a human lord to sit at His right hand (The Hebrew word adoni is used for the second occurrence of the word 'lord' in this verse!) So, the LORD GOD invites David's lord/adoni to sit at His right hand! Thus, after Jesus quotes Deut 6:4 in Mark 12:28-29, he continues … (Mark 12:35-37)  And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my lord , Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. 37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord [adoni]; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly. Jesus …  identifies himself as David's lord, David's adoni. … Again, the Jewish people (even the common people) understood that adoni is never used in ref. to deity.

AP

You say…

Quote

Again, the Jewish people (even the common people) understood that adoni is never used in ref. to deity.

Jesus seems to deny this claim you make about the Jews and their use of the word adoni.

Jesus Identifying himself as Davids Lord or adoni is in no way saying he is not God.

Again
The second Hebrew word  for Lord in Pss 110:1 that Jesus quotes in  Mk 12:29, is  “adon”.

The same word ‘adon “is used in the in many OT scriptures as I have shown which is definitely applied to Deity.

Your exegisis does not prove that Jesus is not God, One with the Father and the Spirit.  

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
I must have missed where Jesus said he was God so perhaps you can help me.
Or do we have to disprove
something he never said??

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi W, I must have missed where Jesus said he was God so perhaps you can help me. Or do we have to disprove something he never said??

NH

Oh thats right the truth is on the defence here isnt it?

Of course Jesus didnt come as God, he came as nothing, just the Word that had put off his deity, emptied himself of his nature, and ceased to be who he was, God, and was born a Son!

He emptied himself of everything, which leaves nothing.

[Author]

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