- This topic has 523 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 17 years, 11 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote Hi,
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Simple really.Yes very simple.
A Father has a Son. And both are human!
A God has an Imogene Son. And both are One, God!
Quote Hi W,
Imogene??
God is in the image of humans?
Fathers have sons and both are father\sons??
hmmmOOPS
Typo.
Yes very simple.
A Father has a Son. And both are human!
A God has an Monogenes Son. And both are One, God!
Hi W,
God has other sons with no mother or human derivation shown in gen 6, Jb, 1, 2, 38.
Are they God too?Quote Hi W,
God has other sons with no mother or human derivation shown in gen 6, Jb, 1, 2, 38.
Are they God too?NH
Are they the Monogenes Son? Did they create the worlds, or lay the foundations?
Quote Hi W,
That is not the question.
Surely you do not say Jesus is God BECAUSE he was used in creation?NH The question? Is Jesus to be compared to any other son or being?
He Jesus is One with the Father, he Jesus is one with God! Not oneness like you may speak of men being one in the Spirit with him.
But oneness in that he is the very essence of life, he is the life giver, the one who laid the foundations of the earth and by whom all things consist.
Out of him everyman can drink the water of life, he is the bread of life, his blood is our drink and his flesh is our food!
Can any man be this?
By him all things CONSIST!
Surely, he is God, Onewith the Father and the Spirit!
Hi W,
He is the monogenes Son with his own life and glory which he had with God before time and as firstborn was used by God in all of creation. But all this precludes him from still being the God of whom he is the Son and since he is a being who made rational decisions of his own to obey God and come and partake of flesh we should not confuse him with his God and father.As a being in his own right he was able to be filled and anointed by God with God's Spirit of eternal Life as well as having his own spirit which, as with us, gave him life as a man.
He lost his own life and spirit but remains alive now in the Spirit of God which makes him now one with God.
We can follow him.
Quote He lost his own life and spirit but remains alive now in the Spirit of God which makes him now one with God. We can follow him.
NHShow me scripture where Jesus lost his life and spirit!
Hi W,
Matt 27
” 50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.51And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.”
Mk 15
” 37And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last. “Lk 23
“46And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last.”Jn 19
” 30Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.”
Romans 5:6
For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:15
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many
Romans 6:10
For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Romans 8:34
who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
Romans 14:9
For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.He died.
He gave up HIS spirit.
He commended his own spirit to God.You need more?
Quote Hi W, Matt 27
” 50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.51And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.”
Mk 15
” 37And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last. “Lk 23
“46And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last.”Jn 19
” 30Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.”
Romans 5:6
For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:15
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many
Romans 6:10
For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Romans 8:34
who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
Romans 14:9
For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.He died.
He gave up HIS spirit.
He commended his own spirit to God.You need more?
NH
Those scriptures do not say Jesus lost his life and Spirit, they say the opposite…
lk 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, **into thy hands** I commend my spirit: and having said thus, **he gave up the ghost**.He didnt lose anything he simply yeilded his Spirit to the Father and left his Body.
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.If the Spirit of Jesus died as you say, then what about the fulfillment of this scripture?
Matt 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart [Center] of the earth.Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.Eph 4:
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all thingsIt was the body of Jesus that died, not his Eternal Spirit!
Jn 1:4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.Jn 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:Jn 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.How can the resurrection and the life die?
Heb 10:5-13
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Jesus offered his body as a sacrifice, the Lamb of God, for our sins.They could not kill his Spirit or Soul.
Matt 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.Jesus was/is the Eternal life!
Hi W,
Jesus was killed.
Jesus died.
The natural spirit of Jesus did not die but returned to God as all do[ecc12].
But he had been baptised in the eternal Spirit of God which never leaves nor forsakes us.
His soul did not die nor was his soul asleep in Hades but was alive in the Spirit of God and he visited the souls in prison 1Peter 3].
His body died but did not see corruption.
We follow him.Quote Hi W,
Jesus was killed.
Jesus died.
The natural spirit of Jesus did not die but returned to God as all do[ecc12].
But he had been baptised in the eternal Spirit of God which never leaves nor forsakes us.
His soul did not die nor was his soul asleep in Hades but was alive in the Spirit of God and he visited the souls in prison 1Peter 3].
His body died but did not see corruption.
We follow him.NH
Interesting stuff Huh?
You have to love the truth! Goodnight!
Wait a minute!
What are you TWO talking about???
Don't you believe that Jesus literally died!
That is, DEAD, as in the Biblical definition of Death!For those 3 days he was literally dead.
He knew nothing, did nothing, saw nothing, heard nothing, he ceased to live because he was dead.
In fact, he never came to life again, until GOD raised him from the dead!Don't you TWO believe this?
All this talk about His soul did not die nor was his soul asleep in Hades and him leaving his Body, is not scriptural.
To be in Sheol/Hades is the Scriptural metaphor for death!
It means you are dead
So Peter [Acts 2.27] was saying that Jesus was dead, however, he was not dead long enough, he did not remain in Sheol/Hades long enough, to see corruption, because GOD raised him from the dead.Also, Scripture does describe death as sleep.
Therefore, Jesus, was sleeping the sleep of death in Sheol/Hades for 3 days until GOD awoke/raised him from sleep/death.
That is what Resurrection means … to be awaken from the sleep of deathSo, Jesus was literally dead and he was literally raised from the dead
As for Matt 12:40, being in the heart of the earth, means being dead and buried which Jesus was! (It doesn't mean center???)
Compare (Dan 12:2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, …Being in the heart of the earth, sleeping in the dust of the earth are describing the same thing, that is, being dead and buried.
It is that simple. It is the fate of us all until the Resurrection(s) when GOD awakes/raises us from the dead.
Hi Adam,
In Lk 16 Jesus describes the places that the souls of men wait in.
We should believe him.
And according to 1 Peter 3 Christ was made alive in the Spirit of God instead of being kept in Hades before he was raised.Quote Wait a minute!
What are you TWO talking about???
Don't you believe that Jesus literally died!
That is, DEAD, as in the Biblical definition of Death!For those 3 days he was literally dead.
He knew nothing, did nothing, saw nothing, heard nothing, he ceased to live because he was dead.
In fact, he never came to life again, until GOD raised him from the dead!Don't you TWO believe this?
All this talk about His soul did not die nor was his soul asleep in Hades and him leaving his Body, is not scriptural.
To be in Sheol/Hades is the Scriptural metaphor for death!
It means you are dead
So Peter [Acts 2.27] was saying that Jesus was dead, however, he was not dead long enough, he did not remain in Sheol/Hades long enough, to see corruption, because GOD raised him from the dead.Also, Scripture does describe death as sleep.
Therefore, Jesus, was sleeping the sleep of death in Sheol/Hades for 3 days until GOD awoke/raised him from sleep/death.
That is what Resurrection means … to be awaken from the sleep of deathSo, Jesus was literally dead and he was literally raised from the dead
As for Matt 12:40, being in the heart of the earth, means being dead and buried which Jesus was! (It doesn't mean center???)
Compare (Dan 12:2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, …Being in the heart of the earth, sleeping in the dust of the earth are describing the same thing, that is, being dead and buried.
It is that simple. It is the fate of us all until the Resurrection(s) when GOD awakes/raises us from the dead.
Ap
How do you see that the Spirit of Jesus that was with the Father Died!
Jesus said he was the “resurection and the life” He could not die. His body died.
Jn 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.Jn 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?As far as I know they all died a natural death. Their body died!
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.Jesus said he had to be in the belly of the whale(center of the earth), 3 days.
Matt 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
II Cor 5:8
We are confident, , and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Jesus said to the thief on the cross…Lk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.And then….
I Pet 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
This is one of the first principles of the oracles of God.Quote How do you see that the Spirit of Jesus that was with the Father Died! Remember when God breathed spirit into Adam's nostrils?
Remember when Job spoke of spirit as being in Job's nostrils?Spirit (a word that literally means: wind, breath, air, etc) doesn't have a personality.
You are confusing the fact that God IS a spirit and angels ARE Spirits with the fact that humans have spirit in them, a life sustaining FORCE.
Jesus actually did die. He was completely dead.
Quote Jesus said he was the “resurection and the life” He could not die. His body died.
Jesus became the resurrection and the life, in that after he was resurrected, heJOHN 5:21
“For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to.”JOHN 6:40
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I WILL RESURRECT HIM ON THE LAST DAY.””REVELATION 2:8
““And to the angel of the congregation in Smyr′na write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life [again],”JOHN 11:25
“Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;”Anyway, Jesus did actually die. He entrusted his spirit to God, in that it would be God that would raise him back to life, put that spirit back into Jesus.
Sometimes, we speak of Land or property RETURNING to it's owner. Yet, we know that nothing physically is moving.Hi,
1Cor 8
“4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be THAT ARE CALLED gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. “Number 3004
Transliteration:
lego {leg'-o}
Word Origin:
a root word
TDNT:
4:69,505
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
say 1184, speak 61, call 48, tell 33, misc 17Total: 1343
Definition:
to say, to speak
affirm over, maintain
to teach
to exhort, advise, to command, direct
to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say
to call by name, to call, name
to speak out, speak of, mentionSo Jesus is one of those CALLED gods. But for us there is one God, the Father.
Nick, I'm not certain Jesus is one of those that is a so CALLED god. Jesus is in every right, a mighty one, God. He isn't simply called a God. He is Mighty God, in scripture. And looking at the context, we see that it is speaking about false “mighty ones,” ones that are CALLED GOD, but really aren't mighty at all. The scriptures call them “powerless.”
So I don't think this scripture is speaking of Jesus as being one who is a so called God.
Jesus rightfully is a God, a mighty one, as angels are mighty ones (gods) as well.Yet, of course, Jehovah the Almighty one, is distinguished as being the only true mighty one, when compared to all others.
Imagine that Jehovah is King of eternity. King in every right. King of all.
And imagine that he sets up a king to be head of his kingdom. That king which Jehovah has set in place is also a king, without question, having all the power and authority bestowed upon him by the very king of eternity.Of course, there are other kings, people with limited power. But they rule none the less. Yet, they are extremely limited and have very little power compared to the king of eternity, or even compared to the king that Jehovah has set in place.
The word God applies to Jehovah, thousands of times. About 1000 times his is specifically called God. We know he is God. The word “God” essentially means: “Mighty one.” We know Jehovah, as our creator, is mighty, in fact, he is called ALMIGHTY. His son, is mighty as well, obviously. And therefore the title God can be applied to him, even as it is applied to human judges of isreal, and to angels and to Satan himself and to other false “mighty ones.” A piece of wood can be worshipped as an idol, a god, but really, it is not mighty at all, not really a god, it's false.
Just because Jehovah and Jesus both have the titles God, along with others, does not mean that Jesus is God almighty, that they are the same.
Jehovah is a king. Jehovah has set up Jesus as a king. They are both kings. This doesn't mean they are the same. There are other kings as well.
The main arguement here seems to be that the Bible says there is only one true God, and that since Jesus is called God, that he is the same.
Well, one could say that there is only one true king, one who is truly the ruler of all. Jesus has a head, Jesus is under his father, therefore, even though he is a king, he is under the king of eternity, Jehovah. THAT DOESNT' MAKE JESUS A FALSE KING. This is not a contradiction. And neither is it to call Jesus God or a god even though there is only one TRUE GOD. Jehovah is truly God, in that he is truly mighty. A mighty one. He is described 43 times in the Bible as Almighty, a title that fits only him. Yes, there are other mighty ones. But only one who is truly mighty, almighty, and that is Jehovah.
This is their main reason, the thing it always comes down to. Jehovah is the only true God, and Jesus is called God.
The problem, is twofold: They don't understand the meaning of the word “God,” and they are confusing the notion of false gods (idols) with the word “god” and what it actually means.
Jehovah is often differentiated between the false gods of the nations. Of course, these false gods are made of stone, or wood, and are not really gods (mighty ones) at all. They aren't really gods, (meaning mighty ones.) Yet, they are worshipped as gods. In this sense, they are gods. But false ones.
Then, we have Jesus, human judges, angels. The word “God” applies to all these, as they are all mighty.So what do we make of the statement: “only true God?”
Are angels mighty ones?
Were the human judges in Israel mighty ones?Yes, to some extent.
Compared to humans, angels are obviously very mighty ones.But notice this one important fact, that they all close their eyes to.
Jehovah is 'almighty.'
That sets him apart.
43 times he's called almighty. Only one of those times, is this questionable (not really) and that's in revelation where some wribgkt try to apply the title alpha and omega to Jesus, when this clearly creates some contradictions, which I will gladly discuss in the alpha and omega thread.
Anyway, Jehovah is set apart in his degree of “mightiness.” There are no limit's for him!
It's not comparable.Compare the queen of an ant pile to the queen of England. The degree of mightiness isn't the same at all, yet, compared to Jehovah's might, they are virtually the same. Compared to Jehovah's almightiness, what difference in “might” does one human king have over another?
So, Jehovah truly is the only “true” God (meaning “mighty one”) in the fullest sense of the word.
Hi david,
In context of what applies to those who are in Christ there is only One God the Father.
Christ is mentioned in the same verse so if ever we were to be told he was our god too that would have been it.
So outside of the Father all others are not our God.
Again no confusion that it may have referred to a trinity god is stifled by the fact the Father is named.
I do not doubt the divine origins directly from God and his own glory as the monogenes son by which reason he is called God.
But that does not malke him for us a deity to be worshipped by those who are in him any more than a branch worships the vine..
The term “so called” in english has a ring of contempt about it but in the greek I do not think it does.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
