Jesus Christ is God

Participant

Hi CB,
You do not need to prove your beliefs to us.
You will have to justify them before the one you call Master.
They do not align with his.

January 9, 2007 at 7:26 pm#36408

Participant

Is Jesus the personification of wisdom in proverbs or is he God from whom all wisdom originates?

Jesus is not the personification of Wisdom. Wisdom has its origin in Jesus. There is no scriptural proof that the proverbs is speaking of Jesus.

First of all Jesus is not Female.

The LORD, Jehovah of the Bible, has infinite wisdom in Himself, from eternity. There is not, and never was, any limit to His understanding. We call His infinite wisdom, omniscience. Lady Wisdom, personifying wisdom in this chapter, was always with Him, for He was always the only wise God (I Tim 1:17; Jude 1:25).

There are seven pronouns here, representing two persons, one male, one female. First, the LORD is represented by “him,” “him,” “his,” and “him.” We see this easily from the preceding context, which speaks of the LORD possessing wisdom from the beginning (8:22) right down to using wisdom to decree limits on the sea (8:29).

Then we see Lady Wisdom, which is Solomon's personification of wisdom, who is referenced throughout this chapter by female pronouns. In our proverb, wisdom is identified by “I,” “one,” and “I.” Consider also “her” in 8:1, “she” in 8:2, “she” in 8:3, and right on down to “me” twice in 8:36.

God inspired Solomon, as one of the methods of teaching wisdom, to personify wisdom as a woman, whom we should choose to hear and follow rather than the strange woman. Each reader must make a choice which woman he will follow and befriend. He frequently uses this figure of speech (1:20-33; 2:4; 3:15-18; 4:5-13; 8:1-36; 9:1-5). Please see the comments on 8:1, for a short explanation of this figure of speech.

Our proverb is often perverted to teach that Jesus is a begotten God – a secondary God generated by the Father. Heretics crept into the church 150 years after the apostles and taught that the deity of Jesus was derived from His Father. They held that Jehovah begat a Son in eternity by a mysterious process of generation. You can read this horrible blasphemy in John 1:18 of the NASV. Jehovah's Witnesses, heretics that they are, love such a doctrine, for Jesus is only a subordinate God to them.

Jesus is not a begotten God at all. Jesus is the mighty God (Is 9:6). Jesus is Jehovah. Jesus is I AM THAT I AM. Jesus is the Everlasting Father (Is 9:6). Jesus is the Word of God made flesh (John 1:1,14). Jehovah never begat a God or a Son in His divine nature. Jehovah had a Son named Jesus, when He brought His power over the virgin Mary; it is this miraculous birth that makes Him the Son of God (Luke 1:35). Only after this birth, this incarnation of deity in humanity, did God have a Son (John 1:14,18). This is the great mystery of godliness, and we shall live and die by it (I Tim 3:16).

The most important message of the New Testament is that Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God, and it is this precise doctrine we believe and defend. A derived, begotten, generated, or otherwise inferior deity from eternity is not the Son of God. The divine nature of Jesus was and is undivided, unbegotten, unoriginated, and ungenerated! He was and is the Word of God, without origin, begetting, generation, or any other manmade hallucination. He is Jehovah! Jesus is not an eternal Son! He is the eternal God! He became the Son of God by His glorious incarnation in the womb of Mary (Luke 1:35).

The heretics ignorantly reject the personification of wisdom in this chapter and other places. Our proverb is not speaking of God having a little boy playing before Him in eternity! Lady Wisdom is speaking, and she is figuratively describing herself as always having been with the LORD of heaven and earth. Read 8:21 again. Here it is: “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.”

If our proverb is describing the divine nature of Jesus in eternity, as these false teachers say, then the divine nature of Jesus is female! For wisdom is a woman by personification throughout this chapter and the other places where Solomon uses the figure. If Jesus is presented here, then Jesus was just a spectator at creation (8:27)!

Enough with their heresy! What can we learn profitable for our souls? The glorious and infinite God delights in wisdom, and He has always delighted in wisdom, which is the power of judging rightly in any situation. From His holy example, we should pursue and rejoice in wisdom as much as He does.

Lady Wisdom rejoiced to see men created, and delights in serving them (8:31). Hearing her, watching for her, and keeping her ways will bring blessing (8:32,34). If we pursue wisdom, we will find life and obtain the favor of the LORD of glory (8:35).

Dear reader, what have you done this day to hear wisdom, to watch for her, and to keep her ways?

Do you delight in knowing her? Life, blessing, and the favor of the LORD are waiting! What is more important to you than these wonderful things?

If wisdom is important enough to delight the great God, why not you?

All the treasures of wisdom are found in our Lord Jesus Christ (Col 2:3). Though our proverb does not teach it, after the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ in Mary's womb, God our Father did delight greatly in His only begotten Son, the man Christ Jesus (Is 42:1). He publicly declared so at His baptism and at His transfiguration (Matt 3:17; 17:5). Do you delight in the Son of God?

Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, (the beginning of the creation of God;)

Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me {in the beginning of his way), before his works of old.

Jesus truly is the beginning of the creation of God because **ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM**. He didnt create himself.

The word “beginning” in vs 14 is *arche* which means;

1) beginning, origin

2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader

3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

“arche” comes from a root word *archomai* which means

1) to be the first to do (anything), to begin

2) to be chief, leader, ruler

3) to begin, make a beginning

So Jesus is the “ORIGINATOR” of **ALL THINGS** including wisdom.

He is and was the Eternal life that was with the Father.

Col 2
2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

January 9, 2007 at 7:50 pm#36409

Participant

Hi W,
Are these your own words or are you quoting another master?
Indeed Christ is more than wisdom.

He is the very image of God who was begotten of God, was with God and loved by God before the foundation of the world and all things came through him and he was sent into the world for our sakes.

Was he conceived by the power of God or the Holy Spirit?
Or are you agreeing with the JWs that the Holy Spirit is just the power of God?

January 10, 2007 at 12:56 pm#36538

Cult Buster

Participant

Jehovah Is the Alpha and the Omega

In the verses below, Jehovah God states that he is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last:

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.” (Revelation 1:8)

“I am the first and the last, and besides me there is no God.” (Isaiah 44:6)

Thus, there is only one Alpha and Omega, first and last, and it is Jehovah God.

Jesus Is the Alpha and the Omega

Jesus makes it clear that he is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the Last:

“'Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end…I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to your people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and offspring of David, and the bright morning star.'” (Revelation 22:12-16)

These are the things that the Son of God says, he who has his eyes like a fiery flame, and his feet are like fine copper.” (Revelation 2:18)

And I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me…is eyes as a fiery flame; and his feet were like fine copper when glowing in a furnace…he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever.” (Revelation 1:12-18)

Conclusion

Jehovah God says he is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, and is the only God, and Jesus says he is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, so Jesus and Jehovah God are one and the same.

January 10, 2007 at 6:41 pm#36547

Participant

Hi CB,
Let scripture teach without drawing your own conclusions lest you be found adding to the Word and showing that you believe you are greater than scripture and the Spirit of God that wrote it through men.

January 10, 2007 at 10:05 pm#36560

Participant

To Cult Truster.

Like all who are in cults, they reuse the same scriptures that give an appearance of backing up their view.
In turn they ignore all other scriptures that completely contradict their doctrine.

As it is written:

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Even those in cults call other cults, “cults”.

Cult Buster, it appears you mission is to expose cults and yet you are in the biggest cult of all. In fact the Mother of All Cults.
Your doctrine and teaching contradict scripture and this proves you are not teaching the truth.

It is scripture that exposes you. Your standards on what is a cult is of man. If it were of God, then you would would have eyes to see your own position.
But the log in your eye blinds you from seeing things as they are.

January 10, 2007 at 10:16 pm#36561

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 06 2007,16:28)

Seems to me 98% of what he post is pure scripture! I only hear critisism that he is wrong but see no one disputing the scriptures or the method by which he uses them.

How can that be anymore false than what I have heard come from some like David and 94 and M42, but you never critisize or judge them for any of the unscriptural things that they teach.

Could there be an anti-trinitarian bias here?

Maybe so WorshippingJesus, but quoting scripture to back up a false doctrine makes one a false teacher.

It doesn't matter even if a person quotes 99.9% scripture, if they use it for a purpose that it was never meant to be, then the purpose is wrong and false.

Trying to justify the Trinity Doctrine is like flogging a dead horse. It doesn't matter how much you hit a dead horse, it isn't going to stand up and walk.

January 10, 2007 at 10:23 pm#36562

Participant

To WorshippingJesus.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 06 2007,16:28)

Could there be an anti-trinitarian bias here?

Yes. There is a dislike for false doctrine.
We are also anti-atheism and anti anything else that raises itself above the truth.

But we are primarily students and disciples of Jesus who is the truth.

That is why we do not follow the institutions and doctrines of men.
We are not members of a denomination or cult. We are members of the Body of Christ and Christ is the head.

We are not of this world, so it is understandable that those of the world will come to us and persecute us and try and rob us of the truth that God has placed in our heart. That is expected.

But darkness cannot overcome light.

If we abide in the truth.

January 11, 2007 at 3:25 am#36574

chicano4571

Participant

theere is two type of Christians . On one group the teaching is that Christ is God, Son of God, member of the trinity,not fully man. The second group believes Christ did no pre exist, Son of God,Son of Mary. He is Devine yet Human died on the cross resurected on the third day and sits at the right hand of His Father Yahweh. You see the first group does not believe that God had a son a mortal son and that is why the Roman Cathlic Church had a meeting in the 500a.d give and take about divinity of Christ . they were leading towards the belief of Jesus is God and there by be little ing Christ humanity. All this is Satan work he was there in the Garden and he is still working hard trying to seduce us. the first gruop is all confused and may not be saved at all cause one has to believe that God had a son and that he was like man not fully man yet his father divine. none of us existed before and the redee mer had to be born just like his fleshly brothers. WHEN HE WAS RESURECTED AND SHOWED HIMSELF TO HIS DECIPLES HE TOLD PHILIP ….LOOK IT IS I A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES . its all the Devil doing trying to decievvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

January 11, 2007 at 6:50 am#36583

Participant

Quote

To WorshippingJesus.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 06 2007,16:28)
Could there be an anti-trinitarian bias here?

Yes. There is a dislike for false doctrine.
We are also anti-atheism and anti anything else that raises itself above the truth.

But we are primarily students and disciples of Jesus who is the truth.

That is why we do not follow the institutions and doctrines of men.
We are not members of a denomination or cult. We are members of the Body of Christ and Christ is the head.

We are not of this world, so it is understandable that those of the world will come to us and persecute us and try and rob us of the truth that God has placed in our heart. That is expected.

But darkness cannot overcome light.

If we abide in the truth.

My point is if you are a defender of the truth, then you would defend against all false doctrine here, but you single out trinitarians because all the others teaching false doctrines are also anti-trinitarian.

Your site though so do as you please.

January 11, 2007 at 7:00 am#36584

david

Participant

WJ stated:

Quote

Is Jesus the personification of wisdom in proverbs or is he God from whom all wisdom originates?

Jesus is not the personification of Wisdom. Wisdom has its origin in Jesus. There is no scriptural proof that the proverbs is speaking of Jesus.

First of all Jesus is not Female.

We immidiately see that WJ isn't being particularly truthful or fair.

“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago….Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains…When he prepared the heavens I was there; …then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I cam to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,…and the things I was found of were with the sons of men.”(Prov 8:22-31)

Could this passage merely be talking about divine wisdom or wisdom in the abstract?

The Wisdom that is here described was “produced,” or created, as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. Jehovah God has always existed and has always been wise. (Ps 90:1,2) His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced.

It was “brought forth as with labor pains.” Furthermore, this wisdom is said to speak and act, representing a person. (Prov 8:1)

(Some SUCH AS WJ say that the holy spirit is spoken of in that manner and so the holy spirit must be an individual. Well, the same reasoning would apply to this scripture then. And if it doesn't then how is that subjective?)

Lady Wisdom? ? ?
The fact that the Hebrew word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender does not conflict with the use of wisdom to represent God’s Son. The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8) Yet, it is used to refer to God.

Depicting the Son of God as wisdom is appropriate, since was was God’s Word or spokesman and was the one who revealed Jehovah’s wise purposes and decrees. Elsewhere, he is described as being “the power of God and the wisdom of God,” and also the “wisdom from God.” (1 cor 1:24,30)

January 11, 2007 at 7:37 am#36591

charity

Participant

wisdom is now understood as charity,if you wish

and the spirit of the bride……him and he come if you wish

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Without wisdom, refused to fear
1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Sacrifice of a broken heart reward
1Cr 13:4 Charity suffereth long, [and] is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Cr 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not *her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

Aim to repair
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

kissed by a rose on the grave, resurrection of life
Isa 35:1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.

compass if you wish, from the wisest of all me
Sgs 2:1 ¶ I [am] the rose of Sharon, [and] the lily of the valleys.
Sgs 2:2 As the lily among thorns, so [is] my love among the daughters.
Sgs 2:3 As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so [is] my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit [was] sweet to my taste.

desert manna but no one shall eat
Amo 8:13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
Amo 8:14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.

January 11, 2007 at 7:39 am#36592

Participant

Quote

We immidiately see that WJ isn't being particularly truthful or fair.

Could this passage merely be talking about divine wisdom or wisdom in the abstract?

It was “brought forth as with labor pains.” Furthermore, this wisdom is said to speak and act, representing a person. (Prov 8:1)

David

Its amazing to me that you want to personify wisdom as being Jesus the Word and yet you deny his Spirit as personal.

II Cor 3:17

KJV
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

NKJV
Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

NLT
Now, the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, he gives freedom.

NIV
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

ESV
Now the Lord* is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

NASB
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, {there} is liberty.

RSV
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

ASV
Now the Lord is the Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, [there] is liberty.

YLT
And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty;

Darbys
Now the Lord is the Spirit, but where the Spirit of [the] Lord [is, there is] liberty.

Websters
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

HNV
Now the Lord is the Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

OOPS. I forgot one.

NWT
Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.

HMMM…Please explain.

Lord [kurios] is translated Jehovah?

That same word is used for Jesus 100s of times. Should we call Jesus Jehovah?

Anyway david. Your own bible says Jehovah IS THE SPIRIT.

Do you believe your own Bible? Please explain!

Maybe you shoud tell your leaders to change that scripture, I dont think they wanted it interpreted that way.

January 11, 2007 at 7:43 am#36593

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2007,01:50)

Your site though so do as you please.

To WorshippingJesus..

I do not single out Trinitarians. I also point out JWs, Christadelphians teachings as being false when they are promoted. In fact all denominations in general.

Trinitarians get most of the rebuke as there is a lot more Trinitarian false doctrine being taught here then any other cult.

If there was a large group teaching that Jesus was only a man, i.e., that he didn't pre-exist as the Logos then I would give them my attention just the same.

As it stands Trinitarians get most of the rebuke because most of the falseness that is propagated here is from Trinitarians.

I would much rather that there was a large group here that were willing to move on and treat scripture with respect instead of using it to back up false doctrine. I feel that I need to defend against false teaching here as I have personal commitment and involvement in this site.

January 11, 2007 at 7:51 am#36595

Participant

Quote

To WorshippingJesus..

I do not single out Trinitarians. I also point out JWs, Christadelphians teachings as being false when they are promoted. In fact all denominations in general.

Trinitarians get most of the rebuke as there is a lot more Trinitarian false doctrine being taught here then any other cult.

If there was a large group teaching that Jesus was only a man, i.e., that he didn't pre-exist as the Logos then I would give them my attention just the same.

As it stands Trinitarians get most of the rebuke because most of the falseness that is propagated here is from Trinitarians.

Maybe so, but what I have noticed since I have been a member in Oct is that there has been some teaching here that is way off even worse than the trinitarian view. But I cant remember seeing you come out against anything or anyone but trinitarians.

And I read a lot of post here even before I came. So if I am wrong I stand corrected.

It just seems a little disingenuis to me!

January 11, 2007 at 7:53 am#36596

Is 1:18

Participant

Quote (david @ Jan. 11 2007,07:00)

Hi David,
Yes the feminine 'agape' is used to describe an aspect of God's nature, perhaps to convey that God loves us with a motherly love? Who knows. Anyway, I think it's a poor counter-argument to WJ's point as he was speaking specifically of feminine pronouns. Feminine pronouns are NEVER used to denote/identify God. So….if you insist that Proverbs 8:22ff refers to the pre-incarnate Yahshua then you have an issue to resolve:

Was he the 'Son of God' or the 'daughter of God'?

Also, please tell us – who is “prudence”?

Proverbs 8:12
“I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion.

January 11, 2007 at 7:56 am#36597

Is 1:18

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 11 2007,07:43)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2007,01:50)

Your site though so do as you please.

To WorshippingJesus..

I do not single out Trinitarians. I also point out JWs, Christadelphians teachings as being false when they are promoted. In fact all denominations in general.

Trinitarians get most of the rebuke as there is a lot more Trinitarian false doctrine being taught here then any other cult.

If there was a large group teaching that Jesus was only a man, i.e., that he didn't pre-exist as the Logos then I would give them my attention just the same.

As it stands Trinitarians get most of the rebuke because most of the falseness that is propagated here is from Trinitarians.

He he…should we all aspire to be a henotheist, like yourself t8…

January 11, 2007 at 7:52 pm#36631