Jesus Christ is God

[Proclaimer]

To WorshippingJesus .

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 18 2006,02:42)

Quote Say what? I am saying that Jesus is not the Almighty God. Scripture is clear that he is at the right-hand of the Majesty on High. Luke 22:69 But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.” Ephesians 1:20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Hebrews 8:1 The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, Acts 7:55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Is that nice enough? t8 I guess you missed my point! You say that the Father is the almighty the enphasis is on the almighty because you believe that Jesus is (a) God but not the almighty God! But yet I dont hear you guys talking about the greater God the Father, and the lessor God the Word. Almighty God mask the term! If I am wrong please correct me! If ti is true that you call Jesus a God than why not Just say it and then say that he is the lessor God that you serve calling him your Lord and Savior!

Well first of there is one God the Father. That is what we are to believe according to Paul. He says that for “us” there is one God the Father and Jesus is our Lord.

This is the point I make. What are you going to do about it?

Hopefully you will not ignore it because it is central to having faith in God.

Secondly you talk about a greater God and a lesser god. But I don't look at it that way. I look at it like this:

1. There is God who is a HE and all good belongs to HIM. That God is the Father.
2. God has a nature and he shares that nature. So the DIVINE is God, but to be divine is to have the nature of God.

In scripture God is always spoken of as the Father in identity and in nature God/god can refer to Jesus who is a divine being and has other meanings too.

Look at it this way. Jesus came from God, so even though he isn't the source (God), he is the one who is begotten (the son of God). But he wasn't created because he came from God. We are created because we came from God, but through Christ.

So Jesus is the only begotten and the only mediator between God and man. God is also the head of Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word God/god (theos/elohim) can refer to God the Father, the son, angels, man, idols.

So the word “God/god” is not always talking about the Almighty God. You need to read the context.

Scripture is clear. There is one God the Father. There is also one Lord Jesus Christ.

Now what is the true confession regarding Jesus. Is it compulsory to say that Jesus is God?

Philippians 2:11
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So the true confession is that Jesus is Lord, not “Jesus is God”.

Will you start today, or will you admit it later? One way or another EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord and they will do it to the glory of GOD (the Father).

I choose to confess this now, what about you?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 17 2006,05:33)

Joh 17:5  And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was. And this was His former glory.. Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2  He was in the beginning with God. So what is the conclusion we must come to?

Hi Oxy,
We do not draw conclusions and teach them as truth. Men draw all sorts of foolish conclusions from within and outside of scripture and they are not relevant.

God has a son, the Word, who was with Him in the beginning. Jn 1.1 does not state the Word was Almighty God.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 17 2006,08:35)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 17 2006,08:23) I believe that saying Jesus is God is like saying you've captured the sun in a picture it will look like it but it is so much more. While Jesus is the image of the Father, He is not the Father. Very true. how can the Door to the Father be the Father? The answer is that He can't be.   We seem to be going round and round in circles here, but you could ask yourself what defines a God?  Could it be that the One who has been given all authority and reigns at the right hand of the Father deserves such a title?  Especially since He is One with the Father.

Hi Oxy,
You say he DESERVES SUCH A TITLE because of his actions. But that does not apply then to who he was before he made such a noble and independant choice to obey God does it?

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 17 2006,07:42)

Quote Say what? I am saying that Jesus is not the Almighty God. Scripture is clear that he is at the  right-hand of the Majesty on High. Luke 22:69 But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.” Ephesians 1:20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Hebrews 8:1 The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, Acts 7:55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Is that nice enough? t8 I guess you missed my point! You say that the Father is the almighty the enphasis is on the almighty because you believe that Jesus is (a) God but not the almighty God! But yet I dont hear you guys talking about the greater God the Father, and the lessor God the Word. Almighty God mask the term! If I am wrong please correct me! If ti is true that you call Jesus a God than why not Just say it and then say that he is the lessor God that you serve calling him your Lord and Savior!

Hi w,
God can call other beings gods and does. It is not a problem unless men start worshipping other gods. We should worship the God of Jesus, the Father, as he told us to.

[kenrch]

Jesus is the second Adam, the God of this new creation.  But the Father is Jesus' God.  In the end when the final enemy is defeated then God will be all in all. And Jesus will no longer be God of the new creation he will turn everything over to the Father.

So I believe Jesus is God; God of this new creation.

[music4two]

Hello Forum. I am new here and just wanted to post a few thoughts on the Dual nature of God.

One of the most important questions all Christians must determine is “Who is Jesus?” The word “Christian” itself means followers of Christ. It is imperative to know who Jesus is in order to follow him. The most critical aspect in examining of a living creature must be it’s nature.

God is a being of order and reason. He is the author of intelegent design. Does the Dual Nature Doctrine line up with God’s attributes of logic, design and reason?

There are literally 100 of scriptures that prove Jesus to be human. Nearly all Christian Churches lay claim to believing that He is fully human, however they also add a concept of Jesus being fully God. This is commonly refered to as “The Dual Nature of Christ”

This Dual Nature Doctrine states that Jesus had a dual nature. He is both fully God and fully man at the same time. This belief is held by both Trinitarian and Oneness denominations. In fact, most of their belief systems are centered around this doctrine. For years the fight between Oneness and Trinitarian believers has raged. It is curious that both sides use this doctrine to support their concepts of God. But, does this doctrine stand up to close examination?

First let us define the term nature from common modern language.
Nature in modern dictionaries includes these definitions;
The essential characteristics and qualities of a person or thing:
The fundamental character or disposition of a person; temperament:
The natural or real aspect of a person, place, or thing. One synonym would be disposition or character. A person's nature refers to the combination of qualities that idenity a person or being.

Here we see a clear discription of “Nature”. So it is obvious that one aspect of Nature is the characteristics or make up of a person.

Let’s look at the dual nature doctrine. Remember, acording to this doctrine, the two natures (mortal and divine) cannot be seperated.

In order for Jesus to possess both human and devine natures he must be mortal and immortal at the same time. Finite and infinite, fallible and infallible, temptable and non temptable, This is a logical impossibility. At this point most “dual nature believers” make statements such as “God’s ways are higher then our ways” or it is a paradox that we cannot understand with our feeble fallen minds.

Firstly from the very beginning of recorded history in scripture God has dealt with man according to reason and logic. The rules of action and reaction are clearly shown in God’s covenants with man. If we act in accordance with God’s covenant then we receive the blessing of God. If not, then we do not. If God were not a reasoning creature or we not able to understand reason, we could never understand or follow his covenants. We are created in the image of God, with the same reasoning abilities as God. In fact God calls upon us to reason with Him.
Isaiah 1:18
 “Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.”

Would God calls us to reason with Him were we not capable of doing so?

Secondly this is not a paradox. A paradox is something that appears to be impossible yet proves itself to be possible. An example of a paradox is the belief held for years that, according to the then believed laws of physics, bumble bees could not fly. Yet bumble bees DID fly. This paradox existed because our understanding of nature continues to expand and further understanding resolved the paradox. This does not hold true with laws of reason and logic. There are absolute truths based on logic that do not change. 2 + 2 will always equal 4. There are no square circles. Black does not equal white ect. In the same way opposites cannot be equal.

God cannot be tempted. Jesus can be, and was. These two attributes are opposites and cannot exist within one being.

Jesus is human and therefor can fail. God cannot fail in anything He attempts. Again opposite.

God is all powerfull. Humanity is not. Jesus is human therefore not all powerfull. Opposites!

There is a clear pattern here. The attributes of God and Man cannot exist within one being.

There are some that believe that the laws of logic and reason do not apply when considering God. This is curiously like the beliefs of Wicca (modern witchcraft) who hold there are no absolutes. They further believe that everyone can imagine their own God, with any qualities they make up. Because they do not accept scripture, they require no proof, nor do they require any reason or logic in their God’s attributes or actions. With that philosophy, it is possible to postulate any scenerio, no matter how absurd.

Simply put the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ cannot be expressed without causing contradictions. It cannot be stated in a meaningful way. We can recite the words but our minds cannot understand them in any logical way free of contradictions. It would be like saying something is a square and a circle at the same time. Logic does not permit such a conclusion.

Another problem with the dual nature concept arises when considering if Jesus is the same as the rest of humanity. The very essence of humanity is it’s single human nature. If you change the nature of a man, you change that man into a different creature. If the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ is true and Christ's two natures cannot be seperated, then he is fundamentally different then the rest of mankind, since we have only our single human nature and make up. This makes Jesus a different creature then the rest of Humanity. It makes him non human. Followers of this doctrine can state time and again that Jesus is fully human, but the belief that He has a dual and therefor different nature makes Him different. They must, by excepting this doctrine, qualify Jesus’ humanity. This of course contradicts hundreds of very clear scriptures.

This dual nature further begs the question, How is Jesus a pattern for us if he is different in nature then us? We then have to examine every act of Jesus to determine if he did it by virtue of his human nature or his divine nature? When Jesus healed people was it his divine or human nature in action. If we say it was his human nature then we must conclude that humanity has miracle power without God. If his divine nature then how can we do or imitate any of Jesus powerful gifts. After all we have only our human nature! Even though Jesus says “Greater things then this we you do”, we still must question from which nature he did them.

What of Jesus’ resurrection? The most powerful hope and example in the word. Did He resurrect as a man or as a God? What power did it? Of course scripture says God raised Jesus from the dead. This does not solve our dilemma. If Jesus' nature has to be qualified to fullfill the dual nature doctrine and the two natures cannot be seperated, then what was raised from the dead, a God or a man? There are those that teach that God withdrew from Jesus at the point of His crucifiction? The only proof they have is the fact that Jesus cries out “My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?” This is not proof of a broken dual nature. It makes much more sence to see Jesus as a man in such tremendous pain in his heart and body that He cries out in total anquish. He was being killed or deserted by those whom he so desperately loved.

Because this doctrine makes Jesus different we still must question his ability to be a pattern for us. The fact that God raised a dual natured God/man from the dead is not an example for those of us that are of a single nature. How do we know that we, of a single nature, will be raised from the dead? Because this dual nature of Christ makes Jesus different, in basic nature, then the rest of humanity, we cannot use his l
ife as an example. This scraps all of the plan of God to raise up others like Christ. How can others become dual natured like Jesus?

Some will ask how did he do things like forgive sins if he is a human being? The pharasees’ ask the same question. Matthew 9/2 through 8 Jesus says to the crippled man “Courage son your sins are forgiven” On seeing this some of the teachers said among themselves “ This man is blaspheming”! Jesus knowing what they were thinking said. “Why are you entertaining evil thoughts in your hearts?
Tell me which is easier to say? Your sins are forgiven or get up and walk. But Look! I will prove to you that the Son of Man (Son of Man again denoting his humanity) has authority on earth to forgive sins.” He then said to the paralized man… Pick up your mattress and go home. {Everyone there understood what happened next as explained in verse 7 and 8….} and the man got up and went home. When the crowds saw this they were awestruck and praised God, the giver of such authority to HUMAN BEINGS!!!

What authority was given to human beings? The entire context is about the authority to forgive sins! Notice also that Jesus does not correct the crowd’s celebration of the authority to forgive sin being given to humans. The crowd recognised Jesus as human and that is why they were awstruck at the power given him. If he was God they would have been less surprised. Throughout the Gospels, Jesus had no problem pointing out blasphemy, yet he made no correction here. Perhaps because this power given to humans to forgive sin is not blasphemy. In fact scripture is very clear on the subject.

Matthew 16:19
“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 18:18
“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

The fact is that no dual natured creature, 100% man and 100% God could ever have existed. It simply does not fall within the realm of God’s intelegent design, reason or logic. This doctrine effectively scraps all the major promises for other men to follow in Christ’s footsteps. It makes Jesus non-human and therefore nothing Jesus did can be used as an example for humanity. It is another myth and illusion.

[music4two]

Is Jesus God or Man?

The Trinity doctrine proclaims that there is one God divided into three distinct, co-equal, omniscient, omnipresent, eternal, persons of God.  Another rendering is that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are manifestations of one God.  The second person of the Trinity, “God the Son”, was the divine portion in the Dual Nature of Christ.

I remember in my youth reading a book on Mythology wherein the worshipers would pray in turn to all of their gods one after another. According to trinitarian doctrine all three persons of God are worthy of worship. In fact upon visiting one Trinitarian church I overheard a person repeating the same praise and prayer to all three persons of the Trinity. They even sang songs where equal praise was given in order of appearance Father, Son, and finally Holy Spirit. This was done while still claiming to believe in only one God!

If the three persons of the trinity are ways in which God revealed himself and these three are worthy of worship, should we not also worship all the other ways God has revelaed himself to man, such as the burning bush, the pillar of fire, the pillar of cloud, the shakina glory, the angel of Yahweh.

Let us examine just one of these revealings. Exodus 3/4 God called to Moses from the midst of the bush. Verse 6…. He (Yahweh) said also,  I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses hid his face for he was afraid to look at God. Was the bush really God? Of course not! God simply revealed himself in the bush.

God has revealed himself in numerous ways yet we do not claim them as deity. Strongs defines manifestation as…  to make visible, clear, and apparent. I am sure that God was revealed, very clear, apparent and visible to Moses in the burning bush. Notice that Moses hid his face and did not want to look at God.  He did not cover his ears as if there was a voice from heaven. A voice with no physical appearance. There was a physical revealing of God and Moses recognised it for what it was.

Most denominations hold to some form of “Dual Nature” to describe the make up of Christ. The Oneness doctrine does not claim three persons of God, but one. This one God, Yahweh, is the second part of their version of the dual nature of Christ. Though they do not believe in a Triune God they still hold to a Dual Natured Christ and are as equally wrong.

Jesus revealed the Father to us but does that make him God?  Some say Jesus is a mere shell that was inhabited by Yahweh? An empty shell that housed Yahweh’s spirit and Jesus had no human spirit of his own.  This contradicts scripture and again makes Jesus non -human. Luke 23/46 …. Crying out with a loud voice, Jesus said, Father into your hands I commit my spirit.  With these words he gave up his spirit…….   Note it says his spirit and not Ruach HaKodesh ( Hebrew, The Holy Spirit).  The literal Greek calls it…. the spirit of me….  This is not the Spirit of Yahweh but his human spirit.

Did Jesus have a will of his own?  John 5/30 … I (Jesus) do not seek my own will but the will of him who sent me…. This verse indicates that Jesus had a choice to seek His own will or that of the Father’s.  
Matthew 26/39 ….. Yet not as I will, but as Thou wilt. Again Jesus had his own will but refused to let it overshadow what God wanted and willed.

Did Jesus have a soul? Matthew 26/38… My (Jesus) soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death….

So now we have proven that Jesus was made up of a human body, soul, spirit and will.  Since it is clear that Jesus is made up of these parts, we have to ask ourselves, what part is God? This sounds like a complete human being to me!

Nothing in the “New Testament” was ever meant to be read out of context, by people from another culture ignorant of the Hebrew history and the meaning to the words and the concepts behind them, and replacing this with their own personal meaning. Nor were any of the “New Testament” documents ever meant to stand on their own, apart from being interpreted in the context of the “Hebrew” Old Testament. Furthermore, the men who wrote the bible were Hebrew. They thought and wrote as Hebrews. Even when writing in Greek the ways in which these Hebrew men thought  influinced what they wrote.

One of the most missunderstood aspects of Jesus nature is the idea of His having existed for all time. There are certainly scriptures that if taken out of context would indicate that idea.

In order to understand these scriptures and this subject of preexistence, it must be taken into consideration that Yahweh often calls things that are not as if they are. Romans 4/17 …..who makes the dead alive and calls the things that are not as though they were…..  

Many orthodox Jews through history have thought of very important things to have existed, by the foreknowledge of God, before the chaos of Genesis. Hebrew thinkers seem to have an easier time understanding Yahweh as being out of our finite time frame.  Greek thinkers tend to want things more finite and nailed down. This is clearly the case in the way these Hebrews wrote scripture too. For instance In Psalms 139 David is exclaiming how Adonai knows everything about him and knew him before His birth. In verse 16 he writes…. Your eyes could see me as an embryo, but in your book all my days were already written; my days had been shaped before any of them existed….. Was David Pre-existent?  In Jeremiah 1/4 and 5 Here is the word of Adonai that came to me (5) Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I separated you for myself…….

The omnipotent and omniscient God also speaks of Cyrus, king of the Medo-Persian Empire, more than 150 years before the events described occurred. He is even referred to as God's anointed in the work that he was to accomplish on behalf of the captive Jews.(Is. 44/28- 45/1)   Who says of Cyrus……  He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, even saying to Jerusalem, you shall be built, and to the temple, your foundation shall be laid. Thus says the Lord to His ANOINTED, TO CYRUS, WHOSE RIGHT HAND I HAVE HELD — to subdue nations before him and loose the armor of kings. To open before him the double doors, so that the gates will not be shut….. Yahweh could not have literaly held the hand of Cyrus before he was born.  

Yahweh speaks of Jesus in exactly the same way. 1 Peter 1/20  God knew him before the forming of the universe but revealed him in the last days for your sakes…..  If we say in this verse that Jesus is pre-existent then we must also say it of David, Jeremiah and Cyrus. Jesus never claimed to be anointed or exist through eternity. Furthermore if we are to believe that Jesus pre-existed then so did we according to Rom. 8/28-30 ……Now we know that God is working everything together for good: for those who love God; for those who by design are called ones. BECAUSE THOSE WHOM HE KNEW PREVIOUSLY, HE ALSO MARKED OUT PREVIOUSLY TO BE IN CONFORMITY WITH HIS SON'S IMAGE, SO HE WOULD BE FIRSTBORN AMONG MANY BROTHERS. NOW THOSE WHOM HE MARKED OUT PREVIOUSLY, HE ALSO CALLED; AND THOSE WHOM HE CALLED, HE ALSO JUSTIFIED. NOW THOSE WHOM HE JUSTIFIED, HE ALSO GLORIFIED……. There are three important points in this passage.  One, God by his foreknowledge knew about us. We were marked out before our births, yet we are not preexistent. He speaks of this act in the past tense as if had already happened. Two, we are to be in conformity with his son’s image.  We are to be like him. Three, Jesus is the firstborn of many brothers (We are those brothers) We are equated with Jesus as the same.  God had a predetermined design to call us, justify us and glorify us. This was his advance plan for mankind, including Jesus.  This was a plan based on our agreement to follow His plan. He never usurps our free will to choose. As a Hebrew reads these verses he will understand that Ya
hweh was seeing out of time and prophetically speaking of the events he knew were going to happen. This is not predetermination but forknowledge!

Hebrews often gave animation to inanimate objects. For example; Proverbs 1:20 and 21 – “Wisdom shouts in the Streets, She lifts her voice in the square. At the head of the noisy street she cries out; At the entrance of the gates in the city, she utters her sayings:”

Is wisdom an animated creature of some kind? Of course not, however the Hebrews refer to this matter as “she”.

We of the Greek thinking culture often want to see literal interpretations of things. We do not as easily think in a concrete or an alegorical manner. Trying to understand something written by Hebrews and filtering it thru our Greek thinking always leads to problems. This becomes an even bigger problem when we start out with a preconcieved idea of doctrine then try to find scripture to fit into it. This is one reason why there is missunderstanding of John Chapter 1.

Two verses in particular are hard to understand from a Greek thinking perspective.

Verse 1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Verse 14 – And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Is the term “Word” used here literally refering to the person of Jesus Christ? Yes and no! I will explain in a bit.

From the beginning Yahweh had a plan to redeem mankind. This description of God’s idea or plan was expressed as the Greek word Logos which was then translated into the term  “word” in John Chapter 1. The actual definition of word, according to Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words is…. ( a word) as encompassing an idea, a statement, a speech, not the mere name of an object…..  In there treatise on the subject they list dozens of scriptures where Logos is used in the above mentioned way. Then as a secondary meaning they use the scriptures in John 1/1 thru 18 and form a completely different meaning then all the rest of scripture. Is that honest? Where did that come from? It was simply made up. An illusion, a myth, promoted to make up evidence to support a false doctrine.

The New Bible Dictionary, which has a clear trinitarian bias,  defines Logos as…  “a meaningfull discourse, declaration, discourse, subject matter, doctrine, affair, reason , cause, sake and respect. As a gramatical term it means a finite sentence., in logic a factual statement, definition or judgement, in rhetoric a correctly constructed piece of oratory.” Even Trinitarian sources cannot get away from the history of the Trinity and the true meaning of Logos. They even admit that the Logos = Christ doctrine came sometime after the gospels were pened and that scholars have varrying views of the meaning of Logos in this context. Granted this is a difficult scriptural passage to understand, but the definition of Logos is very clear and without doubt. We cannot ignor the definition in order to maintain a traditional meaning for this passage.

Perhaps the best way to describe Logos is as the motives or intentions of God. Jesus was what God intended to create with Adam. Think of the Logos as the blueprint and Jesus as the building. God’s heart, character, motives and intentions are all sumed up in Jesus. In verse 1 The blueprint was with God. That is simple enough. God had an intention and motive for that intention from the beginning. And the intention or motive was God. This too when seen from Hebrew thinking makes sence.

The word logos is used in many scriptures and always means the same, as example; Luke 7/7 …for this reason I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you, but just say the word (your intention, logos) and my servant will be healed……..
 
Further understanding is made in Revelation 1/2 and again in 1/9 John shows a distinction between  The Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus. …..  who bore witness of the word ( motive or intention, Logos) of God AND to  the testimony of Jesus Christ….. John lists them separately showing a clear distinction between them.  This is the same author who wrote the book of John. It seems he is making clear what he wrote in John 1. In other words John says he bore witness to God’s motive and intention for the Messiah and (in addition to) bore witness to the life and testimony of the messiah/Jesus himself. The literal Greek says, “who bore witness of the word of the God and the witness of Jesus Christ.”

The reality of the human, Jesus, fulfilled the  motive and intention (logos) for the messiah, but the motive or intention, (logos) is not literally Jesus.  A spoken message or expressed idea cannot be a literal person.  

What is God’s motive? Love. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not parish but have eternal life.” There is the perfect discription of God’s Logos. His motive is love. His intention is to bring all to eternal life thru His son Jesus Christ. To produce and mature sons like Himself.

So is the term “Word” refering to Jesus?
YES – In that Jesus is the expression of God’s motive (love) and intentions (to make sons). Jesus fullfilled God’s intention to create sons and has within Him the character of God motivated by Love.
NO – In that the motives or intentions of God cannot be literally a person.

Jesus was a full and complete human, body, soul and spirit. This is verified again in Hebrews 2/16 and 17. It says in the Complete Jewish Bible …. Both Jesus and the ones being set apart (humanity) have a common origin this is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers. (Jesus recognized their Common human nature)    Verse 17 This is why he had to become like His brothers in EVERY RESPECT…..  The word BECOME is defined according to Strongs as; to make like, compared or made like.  The word “every” means “all, completely, all inclusive”. Jesus was not like his brothers in all but his nature, but in all ways. Nowhere in scripture is Jesus’ full humanity qualified by having a dual nature. On the contrary 100’s of scriptures point to his compleat and full humanity.

According to scripture man is created in the image of God. (Gen 1/27) This being true, Jesus is a man, according to the following scripture.
2 Corinthians 4:4 — The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

If one can step back froma Greek Thinking literal translation and see things from a Hebrew figuritive , concrete way a different meaning for John 1 emerges.
Lets look at John 1 in more detail – Allow me to put the real meanings in these verses and explain them.

1In the beginning was the motive and intention or plan, and the motive and intention was with God, and the motive and intention was God.
[Here God is expresed by His motive and expression so in a figuritive sence the intentions and motives are God]

 2The motive and intention was in the beginning with God.

 3All things came into being through God’s motive and intention, and apart from God’s motive and intention nothing came into being that has come into being.

 4In God’s motive and intention was life, and the life was the Light of men.

 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[The context now is the witness of God’s plan by John the Baptist]

 7He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through God’s plan.

 8He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

 9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
[God’s motives (love) and intentions (plan) enlightens every man.]

 10God’
s intention and motive was in the world, and the world was made through God’s intention and motive, and the world did not know God’s intention and motive.

[The next two verses must be seen in the figurative way in which the Hebrews wrote]

 11The plan or Jesus came into those who the plan was designed for and they rejected it.

 12But as many as received the plan or Jesus, to them God gave the right to become  children of God, even to those who believe in the plans name,
[of course figuritively speaking the name of the plan is Jesus]

 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

[Here again, I am going to insert the actual Greek for verse 14. Notice also that the context is again about the Logos or expression of God’s intentions or motives]

14 And the word flesh became and tented in us, And we viewed the Glory of Him, glory as of the only begotten one, beside of Father, full of undeserved kindness and truth.

If one accepts the traditional veiw of “Word” here it seems to say God became a man. However, notice the phrase “Tented in us”.  This is not about the literal Christ dweling with us but rather about the expression of God’s plan, motives and intentions being in us! Where do we see the Glory of Christ? In us! Glory just like the only begotten son, full of undeserved kindness and truth. This scripture is detailing that God wants us to have the same character (motives and intentions) as Him. A Logos. In fact the same intention and motive of which Christ is the first fruits.

There is one passage of scripture that puts much of this subject in perspective clarity. In this passage it points out clearly the desire of the Father for us to understand that there is one God over all including the Messiah. It clearly shows the distinction between the Father of glory (Yahweh) and the Christ (The anointed human) and that this same Messiah (anointed one) has been made Master, Lord and King of the church and when that position of authority was given to him.

Paul is speaking about Jesus and what Yahweh has accomplished through Jesus in Ephesians 1/17 through 23  Paul prays …. that the God (Yahweh) of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of the Glory (Yahweh), may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the true knowledge of Him  . (18) I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know what is the hope of his calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints. (19) and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might (20) which he brought about in Christ WHEN He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in heavenly places, (21) far above all rule and authority and power and dominion and every name that is named not only in this age but also in the one to come. (22) and He (Yehweh) put all things in subjection under His (Jesus) feet and gave him head over all things to the church (23) which is his (Jesus’) body

Yahweh had a plan. A Logos which he fulfilled in Christ. Clearly Yahweh is the God of Jesus. Because of Jesus’ inheritance, as a man, there is a great power toward us the saints. When Yahweh raised Jesus from the dead, Jesus was placed in the position of all authority and power. (At the right hand is a position of authority not a literal place) At this same time, Yahweh put all things in subjection under Jesus and Jesus was made head of the church.  Paul uses the word WHEN to show a particular moment in time when this occured. This moment in time was  WHEN Yahweh raised Christ from the dead. This was not an eternal position, but was brought about in Paul’s time, (this age, the time of Christ’s resurrection ) and continues into the future (the age to come)

No where is scripture is the point of Jesus’ humanity more heart felt then prior to his crucifition.  His experiences and feelings in the garden clearly show a human being in anguish over what was ask of him. Those prayers are recorded in Matthew 26:36-46, Mark 14:32-42, and Luke 22:39-46. Jesus knew he was to be betrayed and knew it would lead to his death. He endured this because of the joy set before him, but had a real and understandable human emotional response to his future death. In various translations these words and phrases are used: “exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death”; “crushed with horror and sadness to the point of death”; “terrible pain and agony”; “…heart ready to break with grief”; “sadness and distress came over him”; “soul overwhelmed with sorrow”; “grief and anguish came over him.”

These are not the words of an all powerfull all knowing God, but those of a human man facing death. Facing a death he did not deserve.

Obviously there is a difference in beings between Yahweh (The Father) and Jesus (The Son of man) this does not make two Gods but instead makes Jesus a full human being with all the attributes of humanity.
In 1 Tim. 2:5 Paul writes, “There is one God [the Father], and one mediator between God [the Father] and men, the Man Christ Jesus”.

The word for man in this verse is “anthropos” (Gr.) which can have only one meaning HUMAN!
That one scripture is a statement of faith for all believers.  Even as profound as the Hebrew’s “God is one”!

“Yahweh is one and there is one mediator between Humans and Yahweh, the human Christ Jesus.

 
Consider these truths when determining if Jesus is God.

1. God Is All Knowing…..But Jesus Was Not

When speaking of the Day of Judgement, Jesus says, “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father.” (Mark 13:32 and Matt. 24:36)

God is omniscient and knows all.  Jesus did not.

2. God Is All-Powerful…..But Jesus Was Not

Jesus said, “Verily, verily I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do…” (John 5:19). Again he said, “I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me.” (John 5:30)

God is All-Powerful and has full authority. Jesus did not.

3. God Does Not Have A God…..But Jesus Did Have A God

Jesus said, “I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.” (John 20:17).
He is cried out while on the cross, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46). Who was he crying out to?
Many times it is recorded that Jesus prayed  (Luke 11:2-4The Lord’s Prayer), was he praying to himself?
In the garden he prayed, “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt.” (Matt. 26:36).

According to the Bible, God is an invisible spirit….

4. But Jesus Was Flesh And Blood

Jesus said : “No man hath seen God at any time.” (John 1:18). “Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape.” (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24: “God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
At the same time tousands both saw and heard Jesus. Jesus chalenged Thomas to touch the wounds in his hands to prove he was not a spirit but flesh and blood.  Joseph of Aramathea came to beg Pilot for the body of Jesus after his death.

5. God’s Will Was Distinct From Jesus’ will

John 14:28: “My Father is greater than I.” How can anyone deny the very words of Jesus when he states that His Father is greater then He.
Jesus himself admited That God’s will was to be obeyed over His own when he said in Luke 22:42, “not my will but Thine be done” and in John 5:30, “I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me.”

Time and again Jesus speaks to his Father. He shows obediance and subjection to Him. He gives credit to His Father for the power to do miracles. He relinquishes h
is own desire for life to the will of his Father. This is not the picture of a co-equal person of God.

[Oxy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 18 2006,18:38)

Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 17 2006,05:33) Joh 17:5  And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was. And this was His former glory.. Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2  He was in the beginning with God. So what is the conclusion we must come to? Hi Oxy, We do not draw conclusions and teach them as truth. Men draw all sorts of foolish conclusions from within and outside of scripture and they are not relevant. God has a son, the Word, who was with Him in the beginning. Jn 1.1 does not state the Word was Almighty God.

Nick, when have I ever said that Jesus was God Almighty? I have not!

I am simply saying that Jesus is once again the Word of God seated with God and is part of the God head made up of Almighty God, Word of God and Holy Spirit.

[Proclaimer]

Let's test the theory that Jesus is part of God.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

translates as:

John 3:16
For the Father, Son, Holy Spirit so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So now we have 4 identities including 2 sons and one of the sons is the son of the other 3 members including the first son.

OK the Trinity didn't work with John 3:16.

Or maybe we could explain it by saying that the Trinity is beyond our comprehension? That way we can say it did work.

[NickHassan]

Hi Oxy,
Godhead?
Is this committee God described in the bible?

[NickHassan]

Hi Music42,
Certainly the Biblical Unitarian view of Jesus as just a man, with man being just a body and spirit is a popular one. Correct me if I am wrong but your well expounded view seems similar.

Christ is a man indeed just like to us-body, soul and spirit. He is the same yesterday, today and forever and he came in the flesh for our sakes.

He can be looked at according to the flesh but his divine origins as the Word when he was with God in the beginning before he emptied himself and partook of flesh should not be ignored either.

God brought all creation into being through him and he is the firstborn of God's sons in origin as well as in all other things and all other ways.

[Oxy]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 19 2006,02:48)

Let's test the theory that Jesus is part of God. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. translates as: John 3:16 For the Father, Son, Holy Spirit so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. So now we have 4 identities including 2 sons and one of the sons is the son of the other 3 members including the first son. OK the Trinity didn't work with John 3:16. Or maybe we could explain it by saying that the Trinity is beyond our comprehension? That way we can say it did work.

Ummm you don't think you're being a tad ridiculous t8?

When They (God) created everything in the beginning there were 3.

Does this ring a bell? Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever.

And in the beginning He was with _ and was _

You fill in the gaps.

[Oxy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 19 2006,03:28)

Hi Oxy, Godhead? Is this committee God described in the bible?

Try Colossians 2:9, but wait, there's probably something wrong with that verse!

(AMP) For in Him the whole fullness of Deity (the Godhead) continues to dwell in bodily form [giving complete expression of the divine nature].

(ESV) For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

(KJV+) For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead2320 bodily.

From the Strongs Concordance
G2320
θεότης
theotēs
theh-ot'-ace
From G2316; divinity (abstractly): – godhead.

(MKJV) For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

(RV) for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,

(Webster) For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

(YLT) because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

believe that saying Jesus is God is like saying you've captured the sun in a picture it will look like it but it is so much more. While Jesus is the image of the Father, He is not the Father.

Hi Seekingtruth!

If you capture the sun in a picture, thats what you have a dead picture.

However if you capture the Son in God thats what you have, a living God!

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 20 2006,01:00)

When They (God) created everything in the beginning there were 3.

To Oxy.

“They” is God and the son, not the Trinity.

So when God says “Let us make man in our image” it is the Father talking to the Son. To put it another way, God talking to the Word (Logos). God created everything through his Word, so it makes sense that God would say “Let us make man in our image”.

For it is written:

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ

I count 2 in this verse: God and Jesus Christ. They are not counted as 1 God. God is clearly the Father.

If you don't believe that the Father is the only true God, then look at the following scripture:

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

John 14:1
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.

If those three witnesses do not convince you, then I give you a fourth:

Colossians 1:3
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

I would also like to say that I am not being rediculous, I am quoting scripture and testing a teaching against it. This is not rediculous, it is what we should all be doing.

Now if you see God as the Father, then there are no gaps to fill in. Scripture makes perfect sense. God is the Father. God has a son and the term Father makes perfect sense in that context. The son of God has a God and that God is our God.

John 20:17
I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

2 Corinthians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

Look what John writes:

1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

This is what I believe and the Trinity doctrine has no place in scripture, so it has no room in my faith with God. Rather I see such doctrines as residing in the imaginations of men. Men who by their nature cannot help themselves when it comes to creating idols and making God fit their own understanding.

But a person who truly seeks truth, lets God reveal it to him. He doesn't need cleverly devised fables.

[NickHassan]

Hi Oxy,

You quote
“(KJV+) For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead2320 bodily.”

The Godhead is the trinity to you.
So the Godhead dwells in Jesus?

So the trinity dwells in Jesus?

Father Son and Spirit in the Son???

Three into one makes four in this case?

[Oxy]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 19 2006,08:13)

Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 20 2006,01:00) When They (God) created everything in the beginning there were 3. To Oxy. “They” is God and the son, not the Trinity. So when God says “Let us make man in our image” it is the Father talking to the Son. To put it another way, God talking to the Word (Logos). God created everything through his Word, so it makes sense that God would say “Let us make man in our image”. For it is written: Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ I count 2 in this verse: God and Jesus Christ. They are not counted as 1 God. God is clearly the Father. If you don't believe that the Father is the only true God, then look at the following scripture: John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. John 14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. If those three witnesses do not convince you, then I give you a fourth: Colossians 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, I would also like to say that I am not being rediculous, I am quoting scripture and testing a teaching against it. This is not rediculous, it is what we should all be doing. Now if you see God as the Father, then there are no gaps to fill in. Scripture makes perfect sense. God is the Father. God has a son and the term Father makes perfect sense in that context. The son of God has a God and that God is our God. John 20:17 I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God. 2 Corinthians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, Look what John writes: 1 John 5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. This is what I believe and the Trinity doctrine has no place in scripture, so it has no room in my faith with God. Rather I see such doctrines as residing in the imaginations of men. Men who by their nature cannot help themselves when it comes to creating idols and making God fit their own understanding. But a person who truly seeks truth, lets God reveal it to him. He doesn't need cleverly devised fables.

Not so t8, the Son was never a son before He was born as such. Before His birth He was the Word of God, He was with God and He was God.

[Oxy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 19 2006,08:35)

Hi Oxy, So the Godhead dwells in Jesus? The Godhead is the trinity to you? So the trinity dwells in Jesus? Father Son and Spirit in the Son??? Three into one makes four in this case?

Nick, you're being ridiculous again. Please read what I said properly.

[NickHassan]

Hi Oxy,
No I suggest you reread your verse and tell us how, if the trinity is the Godhead, and the Son is the physical part of God to you, how the trinity godhead can be in Jesus?

[Oxy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 19 2006,08:35)

Hi Oxy, You quote “(KJV+)  For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead2320 bodily.” The Godhead is the trinity to you. So the Godhead dwells in Jesus? So the trinity dwells in Jesus? Father Son and Spirit in the Son??? Three into one makes four in this case?

Yes Nick, “(KJV+) For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead2320 bodily.” is what Scripture says. The Father, the Word and the Spirit.

Nice of you to concede that the Bible mentions a Godhead

[Author]

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