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hi nick hassan………..i believe in one God for he himself said i am that i am. jesus christ is the son of God born of Mary by divine power . God had all this planned out before even man fell in sin at the Garden. all we are going through(humanity) is the same thing the Angels went through thousands of years or millions of yrs ago. GOD IS SIFTING US LIKE WE SIFT FLOUR . TO SEE IF WE CHOOSE HIM OR the princess of this world (THE devil). in the Holy Bible it say that John the babtist was sent by GOD JOHN 1:6 .DOES THIS MEAN HE EXISTED IN HEAVEN. NO NO NO. THE SAME WITH JESUS CHRIST HE DID NOT EXISTED BEFORE. JESUS THE SON OF GOD DID NOT EXIST BEFORE . THE NORM IS TO BELIEVE THAT HE(JESUS CHRIST) EXISTED IN HEAVEN AND ONE DAY THE fATHER TOLD HIM HEY HEY SON IM SENDING YOU TO EARTH TO REDEEM HUMANITY FOR THEIR SINS THEN JESUS SAYS OK ILL GO. THAT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE YOU GUYS HAVE STUBLED OVER THE STUMBLING BLOCK THE DEVIL PUT IN FRONT OF JESUS MATT:16:23. I LIKE TO SAY ONE THING YOU ALL THINK THAT YOU SEE CLEARLY AND MAYBE TO A POINT BUT I WANT TO TELL YOU ONE THING YOU DON`T SEE ALL . I ? HAVE ANY OF YOU HAD AN AN EVIL DEMON TRY TO KILL YOU OR SEEN ANGELS ..ONE OF YOU ILL LIKE TO KNOW…….PEACE TO ALL CHICANO457
Quote (chicano4571 @ Dec. 26 2006,03:03) hi nick hassan………..i believe in one God for he himself said i am that i am. jesus christ is the son of God born of Mary by divine power . God had all this planned out before even man fell in sin at the Garden. all we are going through(humanity) is the same thing the Angels went through thousands of years or millions of yrs ago. GOD IS SIFTING US LIKE WE SIFT FLOUR . TO SEE IF WE CHOOSE HIM OR the princess of this world (THE devil). in the Holy Bible it say that John the babtist was sent by GOD JOHN 1:6 .DOES THIS MEAN HE EXISTED IN HEAVEN. NO NO NO. THE SAME WITH JESUS CHRIST HE DID NOT EXISTED BEFORE. JESUS THE SON OF GOD DID NOT EXIST BEFORE . THE NORM IS TO BELIEVE THAT HE(JESUS CHRIST) EXISTED IN HEAVEN AND ONE DAY THE fATHER TOLD HIM HEY HEY SON IM SENDING YOU TO EARTH TO REDEEM HUMANITY FOR THEIR SINS THEN JESUS SAYS OK ILL GO. THAT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE YOU GUYS HAVE STUBLED OVER THE STUMBLING BLOCK THE DEVIL PUT IN FRONT OF JESUS MATT:16:23. I LIKE TO SAY ONE THING YOU ALL THINK THAT YOU SEE CLEARLY AND MAYBE TO A POINT BUT I WANT TO TELL YOU ONE THING YOU DON`T SEE ALL . I ? HAVE ANY OF YOU HAD AN AN EVIL DEMON TRY TO KILL YOU OR SEEN ANGELS ..ONE OF YOU ILL LIKE TO KNOW…….PEACE TO ALL CHICANO457
Hi chicano,Jb 38
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Phil 2
6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men
Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,If Christ is the firstborn in all things then he is before the sons of Jb 38
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 26 2006,00:32) Hi M42,
That is one approach but most who come here are quite happy to receive feedback on their words. All posts can be replied to by all and I must say I am surprised that you demand accountability from others for their words but become sullenly unresponsive when your own words are scrutinised. Surely you can defend everything you write or accept correction as we all do?
I apoligize if I sounded harsh. I spent alot of time attempting to explain one more time the importance of function in deciding if teaching is true. It is frustrating when someone misses or ignors the principle point of my post in order to delve into a less then esential part of it. As I have looked over this forum, I see that you do indeed live here and seem to have something to say on every single subject. The obvious fact that you have a love of debate is not important to me. How your doctrines help you to become more like Christ is important to me.
I refuse to discuss anyhitng of intelectual, head-knowledge scriptural debate for justifying teaching (doctrine) untill the function and purpose of that teaching has been proven to be positive toward making me like Christ. Anything else is vanity and worthless.
I would like to ascertain if anyone on this site cares if their teaching really works to make them like Christ or if they are here to play games of debate.
As I have posted in the past, I joined this forum for entertainment purposes. I really do not expect to be ministered to or to have much effect on others. I do not think this type of forum lends itself to real ministry.To answer your question about scripture let me just say this. Words written on a page do not have holiness as is attributed to deity. The words contained in the book we call the Bible are only words without understanding the heart, motive and intentions of God. If you know what typology is, then my take is that the word is the type while God and His plan for creation are the reality of that type. It is a witness and a testament to the working of God in his creation and outlines his plan for same. this too is a basic principle of proper bible study. All conclussions of interpretation must conform to the character, attributes, heart, functional real plan, intention, motive and purposes of God. It is an outline of the functional gospel (good news) of God. The scriptures are much less important then the functionality of doctrines we derive from them. You can memorize and cross reference the entire Bible, but without a functional gospel, that really changes you to be like Christ, you remain an infant in God if not lost.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 26 2006,03:27) hmmm
Let me clarify my point a bit more.
The Bible is a testament or an intelectual discription of an experiantial event.the event may be Holy because it involves God. It is His deity and Holiness that lends itself to the event. A person can have a spiritual event (wrong spirit) without God. those events are not Holy. It is the presence of God in the event that makes it Holy.When we read Prophecy in scripture it is the Speaker (God) that is holy not just a grouping of words.
I also see the word as a catalist. Let me explain — I read a scripture that strikes my heart because of a particular place I am in. God has quickened that verse to my heart. His Spirit or presence acting in my life has added unction (Holiness if you will) to those words. I open up my heart/spirit to the truth God has quickened to me through His word. there is a Spiritual/holy event that takes place. God's holy breath quickened a group of words to my heart I respond in a spiritual way and God does a work. It is my response and the event that is holy. It is holy because it is the plan of God. It is the fullfillment of God's motives and intentions for His creation.
The Good news (gospel) is an experiantial event. We can record, discuss and remember these events intelectually, but we can only have the events experiantially. there is an unfortunate teaching going around that says if you know of a teaching and agree with it from an intelectual standpoint you have acquired it. This is false. Unless you have experianced it and gone thru a testing on it you do not posses it. To whatever degree you pass the test, to that same degree have you really acquired that truth. This is the working out of our salvation. This is the perserverance and running of the race that was spoken of by Paul.
Hi m42,
I do not think we share a similar foundation with regard to scripture.You say
“The Bible is a testament or an intelectual discription of an experiantial event.”The bible was written through men by the Spirit of God, inspired as to the choice of every word and every jot and tittle. It is not just a collection of HUMAN experiences and the HUMAN recollection of those events. If it is we ought not believe it. Men have every right to twist it and abuse it if it is of MAN.
But it is not. It is a lifeline for man sent by God and should be studied with respect and care till the Spirit of God becomes manifest in us as our teacher, if we are in Christ and he dwells in us. First we need rebirth from above unto the mind of Christ.
2Peter 1
“19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Jn 5
” 38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”
2Tim 2
” 14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
2Tim 3
“14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
Intellect, reason and logic is all of man.
The greeks and their human wisdom cannot grasp the Word of God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 26 2006,17:15) Hi m42,
I do not think we share a similar foundation with regard to scripture.You say
“The Bible is a testament or an intelectual discription of an experiantial event.”The bible was written through men by the Spirit of God, inspired as to the choice of every word and every jot and tittle. It is not just a collection of HUMAN experiences and the HUMAN recollection of those events. If it is we ought not believe it. Men have every right to twist it and abuse it if it is of MAN.
But it is not. It is a lifeline for man sent by God and should be studied with respect and care till the Spirit of God becomes manifest in us as our teacher, if we are in Christ and he dwells in us. First we need rebirth from above unto the mind of Christ.
2Peter 1
“19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Jn 5
” 38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”
2Tim 2
” 14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
2Tim 3
“14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
Intellect, reason and logic is all of man.
The greeks and their human wisdom cannot grasp the Word of God.
You state –
The bible was written through men by the Spirit of God, inspired as to the choice of every word and every jot and tittle. It is not just a collection of HUMAN experiences and the HUMAN recollection of those events. If it is we ought not believe it. Men have every right to twist it and abuse it if it is of MAN.You are putting words in my mouth. I never ever said it was not inspired by God or that it should not be respected. Nor did I say we should not believe it. All I was trying to say is that it is a historical chronicle (inspired by God) of the way in which God has dealt with man through out history. A testimony.
Let me give an example. In the Roman Empire thousands of men were beaten, tortured and whipped. These are recorded in such things as Ceasars chronicles and other historical records. They do not impact us in the same way as the stories of Paul being beaten. Why? Because of Paul’s relationship with God, we see the perserverance of Paul and his faithfullness in time of trial. God had this added to the scriptures that we might have it as a testimony to build our trust and faith. A story about a beating is not Holy, but because of the interaction between Man and God it has significance for us. It is again about function. If the story does not build a functional faith in us then what is the point. Is it just to have some proof text that Paul could take a licking?
A functional faith is an inbteraction betwen man and God. It is action based on choices and decissions of the will.Actually I think we ae closer in agreement then it may apear.
I will only repeat one scripture you have posted since the rest I have no problem with. Perhaps it is clearer in the NASB.
John 5 (Jesus is speaking)
39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.Clearly Jesus is saying that by study alone you cannot have eternal life. there must be something added to that equation to recieve eternal life. this is the experiantial event I was speaking of earlier. Jesus points out that we must come to Him. This is an experiance. It is not a mental ascension but a spiritual event. It is an action of the heart and will.
You state –
Intellect, reason and logic is all of man.There is a reason, logic and intelect that is used in a wrong way. Like intelegence it can be operated without the wisdom of God or His spirit. Reason and logic have recieved a bad wrap because of the perverted way in which Greek Philosophy has missused it. Just like music. It can be a wonderfull tool and blessing in the hands of spiritual men, but when used to propogate ilicit sex, violence and mayhem it can be used for evil. Even with that I do not care to throw out all music. In the same way I do not care to throw out all reason and logic because some missuse it.
It has been my experiance that what some call reason and logic is really not reasonable at all. for example: To some it is not reasonable or logical for many of God actions, but when seen through the Spirit it is completely reasonable and makes logical sense. With a renewed regenerated mind and heart logic and reason take on a different nature the reason of the world.As far as intelect goes, you use your intelect every time you make a post on this board. It is simply the ability to understand information and the world around you. It is the ability to make deduction when faced with information of opposite sides. Without God it is foolishness, but there is a Godly wisdom, logic and reason.
God deals with man in his reason and intelect.
In Isa chapter 1, God calls on us to use reason to understand his edicts and comandments.
17 learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed.
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.18 “Come now, let us reason together,”
says the LORD.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the best from the land;Hi m42,
Heb 11
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.Experience is of things seen.
Jn 20
” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”Faith does not need experience, just obedience.
Those who see do not necessarily believe either.
John 6:36
“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe”Psalm 40:4
How blessed is the man who has made the LORD his trust,And has not turned to the proud, nor to those who lapse into falsehood.Psalm 119:2
How blessed are those who observe His testimonies,Who seek Him with all their heart.Luke 11:28
But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”Obedience makes him our Lord
Faith, belief, trust, obediance are all experiances. they are actions of the will and heart of man. Do you not believe in the free will of man?
When in the process of obediance to God you are experiancing obediance.
You just took a breath, you are experiancing breathing. You typed your last post. you are experiancing posting on this forum.. An experiance is nothing more then the name by which we call input into our being. they may come from our physical or spiritual receptors.Greek philosophy believed that only the transendental Goflike forces of thought and non coporeal makeup had merit. Any experiance having to do with the lower earthly realm ws considered to be lesser if not out right evil. This is gnosticism in a nutshell.You say –
Obedience makes him our Lord
Sorry but you are wrong. Very wrong –
Belief makes Him our Lord. Obediance is something we do based on that belief. Not by works (obediance) lest any man should boast. Only by faith (belief)
I choose to believe or reject Jesus as my saviour. I choose to believe by an action of my will. Because of that choice, I will experiance belief and the rewards given by God for that action.You cannot function in the world or in heaven without experiances. Everything you do has an experiance attached to it.
Quote The bible was written through men by the Spirit of God, inspired as to the choice of every word and every jot and tittle. It is not just a collection of HUMAN experiences and the HUMAN recollection of those events. If it is we ought not believe it. Men have every right to twist it and abuse it if it is of MAN. But it is not. It is a lifeline for man sent by God and should be studied with respect and care till the Spirit of God becomes manifest in us as our teacher, if we are in Christ and he dwells in us. First we need rebirth from above unto the mind of Christ.
NH
So then if you believe what you say. Then do you believe this is the inspired word of God?
Matt 28:18,19
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:These are your words NH…”The bible was written through men by the Spirit of God, inspired as to the choice of every word and every jot and tittle”.
Hi M42,
Obedience makes him our LordLuke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?Lk 19
27But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 26 2006,21:52) Quote The bible was written through men by the Spirit of God, inspired as to the choice of every word and every jot and tittle. It is not just a collection of HUMAN experiences and the HUMAN recollection of those events. If it is we ought not believe it. Men have every right to twist it and abuse it if it is of MAN. But it is not. It is a lifeline for man sent by God and should be studied with respect and care till the Spirit of God becomes manifest in us as our teacher, if we are in Christ and he dwells in us. First we need rebirth from above unto the mind of Christ.
NH
So then if you believe what you say. Then do you believe this is the inspired word of God?
Matt 28:18,19
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:These are your words NH…”The bible was written through men by the Spirit of God, inspired as to the choice of every word and every jot and tittle”.
Good to see you WJ. Welcome back. I look forward to chatting with you more.Did you catch my reply to you yesterday? Interested in your impression.
Hi
M42
Havn't had the time to look over but will respond! Been away for the Holidays here in the states.
Good to be back. Thanks.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 26 2006,21:56) Hi M42,
Obedience makes him our LordLuke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?Lk 19
27But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
NH
We may be arguing simantics.
I was refering to Christ being our Lord at the moment of conversion. This conversion is based on belief not obediance. IF you are speaking of the continual journey of allowing Jesus to become Lord of our lives in more after more areas of our hearts. then I am in agreement. this is based on obediance as our hearts ae transformed from glory to glory.Hi m42,
Many call him Lord Lord but are not known by him. That is the experience that really matters.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 27 2006,01:31) Hi m42,
Many call him Lord Lord but are not known by him. That is the experience that really matters.
I agree. RElationship, expecially the one described by th analogy of the Bridegroom and the Bride does not happen over night. As in all relationships it is built thru love relationship with Him. I agree that it includes obediance. Obediance is always the first step at least untill our character is changed to the point that we simply live Godly lives because of Christ within the hope of glory.
Scripture says If you love me you will obey my commandments. Legalists say “See to prove your love you have to obey”. But that is not what it says. If you love me and have built relationship with me. You will obey from a changed character. This will be an automatic thing. As you change in character, you will obey from a perfected character.Hi M42,
It is no longer I THAT LIVETH but Christ that liveth in me.
We cannot become like Christ by striving self effort.
Copying him in our own strength frustrates the plan of God and feeds our vanity.Music4two
Quote Scripture says If you love me you will obey my commandments. Legalists say “See to prove your love you have to obey”. But that is not what it says. If you love me and have built relationship with me. You will obey from a changed character. This will be an automatic thing. As you change in character, you will obey from a perfected character. God's commandments are also His promises through the eyes of faith.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 27 2006,03:41) Hi M42,
It is no longer I THAT LIVETH but Christ that liveth in me.
We cannot become like Christ by striving self effort.
Copying him in our own strength frustrates the plan of God and feeds our vanity.
Nh,
You know it gets very frustrating when you put words in my mouth. It seems you are just trying to find something to say in every circumstance. It still seems that you ae pulling out small details in my posts to find something to debate. Why would you do that?
I never said do anyhitng in our own strength, but on the other hand we are required to take action in working with God to become mature sons of God. As Paul said working out our salvation daily.As I have said in previous posts I am still questioning the functionality of doctrines proposed on this thread. If you wish to write concerning that I am open to discuss the matter with you. I really do not care to go off on tangents untill my questions have been answered. the anwers to those questions of function will bear greatly on whether I am completely waisting my time here or not.
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