Jesus Christ is God

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December 22, 2006 at 10:25 pm#34988

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote

Hi W,
You ignore scripture to your peril.
It is the Jesus Christ, the only begotten SON of God who came in the flesh.

1Jn 4
” 1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Such is the voice of antichrist.

Heres only a few of the scriptures that destroys the Arian view.

Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made

Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Pss 45
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Isa 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Matt 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jn 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Jn 10:30
I and my Father are one.

Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Heb 1:
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Jude
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 5
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 21
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

So why dont you believe these words?

December 22, 2006 at 10:29 pm#34990

NickHassan

Participant

Hi W,
You are still in my prayers.

December 22, 2006 at 10:57 pm#35006

942767

Participant

Hi M42:

I have enjoyed your posts of Dec. 14 and would like your permission to copy and use them in teaching others.

God Bless

December 23, 2006 at 12:54 am#35019

music4two

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 22 2006,22:57)

Hi M42:

I have enjoyed your posts of Dec. 14 and would like your permission to copy and use them in teaching others.

God Bless

You are more then welcome to use these principles in your studies. They do not belong to me. Only the format is mine and I claim no rights to God's anointing.

I hope they ae a blessing to you.

God Bless >

December 23, 2006 at 1:07 am#35020

942767

Participant

Hi WJ:

Please tell me what is your definition of the word “worship”.

December 23, 2006 at 4:16 am#35026

music4two

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 22 2006,22:25)

Heres only a few of the scriptures that destroys the Arian view.

Pss 45
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Matt 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jn 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Jn 10:30
I and my Father are one.

Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

So why dont you believe these words?

worshippingJesus

In a previous post I outlined a system of hermaneutical principles or safeties in studying the word. In response you said it was excelent, yet here I see you breaking many of the most fundemental of these interpretive safeties.

John 7:17
” If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.
When studying scripture are you willing to follow proper principles of study or do you have other motives.
The most important concept to understand in the previous verse is motive. Do you seek an interpretation to prove your doctrine? Are you willing to lay down doctrines, traditions, and preconceived ideas or do you already know what you have chosen to believe and only want ammo to prove it?

Consider these simple rules for study. Do you use these or ones like them to come to the conclusion that “Word” in John 1 is literally Jesus.Have you studied the word at all or do you just repeat what someone else has told you? Did they study it or did they just guess in order to support a doctrine they want to prove.

1. Scripture must interpret scripture. No one has a private interpretation but all proofs must come from the word itself. A good idea and safety is to use scriptural terms to understand the meaning of a verse.
2. It does not matter what we believe to be true or how we feel about a subject. All that matters is what can be clearly and properly proven in the word.
3. Spend a majority of time in clear understandable scripture. Never base a belief on ambiguous scriptures.
4. There is only one truth. Never base a doctrine on an interpretation of scriptures that causes contradiction with other clear scriptures. If there is a seeming contradiction, this indicates a need for further research to ascertain the truth. A clear scripture always supersedes and ambigous one and does not cause a contradiction.

5. Compare scripture with scripture. Compare a questionable scripture (or the scripture in question) to other scriptures that use the same words or speak of the same concepts. Does your deffinition hold true in other verses?

6.The original text is written in several languages from several time periods and cultures. Hebrew writers think differently then those of us brought up in the modern world. Their writings also are effected by this difference. We must therefor understand how Hebrews thought and wrote. In the cases of the epistles, you must understand the culture and circumstances of the people to which the letter is written.

7. In the case of seeming contradictions where one scripture says one thing and dozens say the opposite go with the preponderance of evidence. In other words side with the majority of clear scripture until the apposing scripture can be properly understood.

Let’s examine your conclussion in light of these simple honest principles —

Rule 1 – Where does the concept of Word being equal to Jesus come from? Is there a preconcieved idea of the Trinity of Jesus as a pre-existant being which begins your thinking in that direction. Do you read John and filter it thru your doctrine? Is this illusion a remanant of the fallout when dishonest men added to the scripture in I John 5:7&8. Where does th
is concept come from?

Rule 2 – In the same way as rule 1 all of scripture must be taken into consideration and must be clear in the scriptures before one uses it for teaching.

Rule 3. – Since the scriptures do not clearly state Jesus is the word and the definition of word does not clearly indicate the name Jesus, one must look for more clear understanding.

Rule 4 and 5. If you definition of word is correct then wherever word (logos) is used in scripture your definition should work.

Let's test out your theory that (Logos)”word” should be translated Jesus. In the following few verses I have replaced “Logos” with “Jesus”. Do they become clearer or more confusing?

Matthew 8:8
But the centurion said, “Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the Jesus, and my servant will be healed.
Matthew 8:16
When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a Jesus, and healed all who were ill.
Matthew 11:2
Now when John, while imprisoned, heard of the works of Christ, he sent Jesus by his disciples
Matthew 12:32
” Whoever speaks a Jesus against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Matthew 12:36
“But I tell you that every careless Jesus that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
Mark 2:2
And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room, not even near the door; and He was speaking the Jesus to them.
Mark 4:19
but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the Jesus, and it becomes unfruitful.
John 8:31
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, ” If you continue in My Jesus, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
John 8:43
“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My Jesus.

Rule 6 – Not understanding how the Hebrews thought and wrote is a major error. The Hebrew culture many times personified inanimate ideas and things. In Psalms wisdom is personified and given female gender. It is much the same way we call a ship “she”. Also Hebrews always think in terms of function, not intelectual data.

Rule 7 – Logos is used over 200 times in the New Testament. In all but a very few places it makes no sense translated as Jesus. Have you fallen on the preponderance of the evidence or on the minority where your definition fits?

Let’s consider a few more of your proof texts
Jn 10:30
I and my Father are one.

Here you break rule 1 and 5. If this is a proof text of Jesus being God and one with the Father, then the same should hold true for these verses.

John 17
21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

22″The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

Has the Trinity expanded now to include all the saints in some multi-million unity of God? These verse are written by the same author as the verse in John 10, so he must be meaning the same kind of oneness in both.

You have misquoted this vese completely. I don’t even have a rule for that one because unless this was a complete mistake I cannot concieve of anyone being that dishonest with scripture. Verse 25 says “The only wise God our saviour THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD be glory and majesty…..

With an accurate quote it makes a whole diferent picture.

Matt 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

This is no mystery. Here you have broken rule 1,2 4, 5, and 6. Jesus had the fullness of God in him. So when people were near him they were in the presence of the deity that resided in him. You are Spirit filled. To what ever degree you are yielded to God’s Holy Breath to that same degree are people in your presence also in the presence of God. When the priest entered the Temple on the day of atonement they were in the presence of God as revealed in the shakina glory. When the Ark of the Covenant was returned to the people of Israel they rejoiced because the “presence” of God had returned to them.
Secondly you did not take into consideration the relational way in which Hebrews viewed God and the natural realm. They see a revealing of God as the very presence of God Himself. Jesus revealed God to them and therefore in Jesus’ presence God was with them.

Here you have broken rule 1, 5, and 6. This is a poor translation of this verse. the word “manifest” would be better translated “revealed”. Either way it is important to understand what “flesh” means. To Hebrew thinking Flesh was not evil but simple meant of the Earthly natural realm. So God was revealed in the natural realm. No diferent then He has revealed Himself in the burning bush, the shikaina glory or His creation. Except in the man Jesus Christ was His perfect revealing. The perfect reveling of God’s character as seen in a human being.

I have enjoyed our discussions of scripture, but I am a bit dismayed at the lack or scholarship and seeming dishonesty with these so called proof texts. In fact I did not wish to even research the remainder for fear I will dig up more missuse of scripture.

December 23, 2006 at 6:42 am#35031

Is 1:18

Participant

Quote (music4two @ Dec. 23 2006,04:16)

WJ has not misquoted this verse, he's quoted from the KJV. Maybe you should check some translations before you accuse someone of dishonesty….

In your own words music4two – “get a life!”

December 23, 2006 at 7:43 am#35039

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote

Hi WJ:

Please tell me what is your definition of the word “worship”.

Hi 94

I thought we had already been down that road.

proskuneo,
1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence

2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence

3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication

But this practice was not seen among the Disciples or the Apostles to any man or being other than Jesus.

Show me an example and I will believe you.

December 23, 2006 at 7:52 am#35040

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote

M42

I cannot deny the scriptures in order to follow some rule. However I believe as you say that we should approach the scriptures with a certain understanding of the context and background.

Our main teacher is the Holy Spirit!

Now, if you can prove to me by any rules of interpretation that the scriptures I have shown can be interpreted another way, then I will believe you.

Otherwise I will believe them as they say and not deny them as many do!

December 23, 2006 at 9:09 am#35050

Is 1:18

Participant

Quote (music4two @ Dec. 23 2006,04:16)

Rule 3. – Since the scriptures do not clearly state Jesus is the word and the definition of word does not clearly indicate the name Jesus, one must look for more clear understanding.

Incorrect.

John 1:1-14 KJV
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Now pay attention music42:
The Logos:-

Was with God and was God (cf. Phil 2:5-6)
Had life (zoe) “in Himself” (Cf John 10:28, 11:25, 14:6)
Made the world but the world knew Him not
Was made flesh (cf. Phil 2:7-8, 2 Cor 8:9)
Dwelt among them
His glory was as of the only begotten of the Father
Was full of grace and truth (grace and truth came by Jesus Christ, vs 17)

1 John 1:1-4
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word (LOGOS) of life;
2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Revelation 19:11-13
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True (Cf. Rev 3:14), and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Scriptures very plainly states that Jesus is the Logos.

Quote

Rule 4 and 5. If you definition of word is correct then wherever word (logos) is used in scripture your definition should work.

Let's test out your theory that (Logos)”word” should be translated Jesus. In the following few verses I have replaced “Logos” with “Jesus”. Do they become clearer or more confusing?

This is straw man argumentation. Just because the Greek word “Logos” is used of Yahshua in scripture, it does not necessarily follow that it's ONLY used this way. And I don't believe that WJ has ever proposed this (quote him if I'm wrong). So I think you are building a straw man, and creating a false dilemma to boot. That's at least two logical fallacies, there may be more to follow….lets see.

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He he….
This is the 'begging the question' fallacy. You assume the conclusion that Logos is personified, without bothering to prove it first. Yes personification is a common Hebraic literary mechanism, but it may or may not be in effect in John 1. Given that the Logos was “pros” God (i.e. in relationship with God), “was God”, “In him was life” and “All things were made by him” it appears obvious from the context of the passage to (almost) all that the Logos was personified because He was an actual personage. An abstract concept doesn't fit contextually into this passage AT ALL. So, in order to give your theory some credence, the onus is on you to:

Provide plausible explanations for the contextual data surrounding John 1:1c (mentioned above), and

Prove that the logos is a “personified inanimate idea or thing”.

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Greek words often have more than one possible meaning and application. Just because a certain application is infrequently seen in scripture does not invalidate it. Your point is not an apt one.

Quote

Let’s consider a few more of your proof texts
Jn 10:30
I and my Father are one.

Here you break rule 1 and 5. If this is a proof text of Jesus being God and one with the Father, then the same should hold true for
these verses.

John 17
21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

22″The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

You actually have made quite a good point here. However, given that the word “one” is unpredicated, it's not right to be dogmatic about what Yahshua meant exactly. It is interesting to me though that the Pharisees (who may have had a deeper understanding of “how the Hebrews thought and wrote” than even yourself Music42) were very upset at this statement, and the context in which it was made:

John 10:28-33
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29″My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30“I and the Father are one.”
31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for (blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.“

Suffice to say, the accusation of blasphemy and the attendant execution by stoning is not a light matter to the Jews. To falsely stone someone of blasphemy in 1st Century Judea would have been a very serious error of judgement, fatal even…..

Quote

With an accurate quote it makes a whole diferent picture.

WJ quoted from the KJV. Hardly dishonest. You should apologise to him.

Quote

Matt 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

This is no mystery. Here you have broken rule 1,2 4, 5, and 6. Jesus had the fullness of God in him.

Now THIS is a misquote.

Colossians
For in Him all the fullness of Deity (Gr. Theotes) dwells in bodily form,

Theotes, not theos…..

Theotes does not mean “God” (theos), it is used as an abstract noun for ‘theos’.

Joseph H. Thayer, the Unitarian scholar, defines theotes in his lexicon as follows:

“Theotes…(deitas, Tertullian, Augustine) deity i.e. the state of being God, Godhead: Col 2:9”

Vine’s Expository Dictionary of NT words records this:

”…But in the second passage (Col. 2:9), Paul is declaring that in the Son there dwells all the fullness of absolute Godhead; they were no mere rays of Divine glory which gilded Him, lighting up His Person for a season and with a splendor not His own; but He was, and is, absolute and perfect God; and the Apostle uses theotes to express this essential and personal Godhead of the Son” (Trench, Syn. ii). Theotes indicates the “Divine” essence of Godhood, the personality of God; theiotes, the attributes of God, His “Divine” nature and properties.

A.T Robertson who is widely recognized as the worlds most authoritative grammarian said in his scholarly book Word Pictures In The New Testament:

“There dwells (at home) in Christ not one or more aspects of the Godhead (the very essence of God, from ‘Theos,’ deity) and not to be confused with ‘Theiotes’ in Romans 1:20 (from ‘Theios,’ the quality of God, divinity), here only in N.T. as ‘Theiote’ only in Romans 1:20. The distinction is observed in Lucian and Plutarch. ‘Theiotes’ occurs in the papyri and inscriptions.”

The Expositor’s Greek Testament, confirms A.T Robertson on this issue:

“The word (“Theotes”) is to be distinguished from “Theiotes” as Deity, the being God, from Divinity, the being Divine or Godlike. The passage thus asserts the real Deity of Christ.”

It does not designate that Jesus was filled with the Father Himself. Paul would have used the noun ’theos’ if he wanted to convey this. Also, the word is never used in reference to men – only Yahshua. Nor can you translate “theotes” to mean a simple quality or attribute (i.e., theios), it goes well beyond this, and instead refers to ‘divine essence’ or simply put “being God”!!

Thayer notes as one of his sources the work of Richard Trench on synonyms in the New Testament. Trench said of these two terms (i.e. theotes and theiotes):

… yet they must not be regarded as identical in meaning, nor even as two different forms of the same word, which in the process of time have separated off from one another, and acquired different shades of significance. On the contrary, there is a real distinction between them, and one which grounds itself on their different derivations; theotes being from Theos, and theiotes not from to theion, which is nearly though not quite equivalent to Theos, but from the adjective theios… But in the second passage (Col. ii. 9) St. Paul is declaring that in the Son there dwells all the fullness of absolute Godhead; they were no mere rays of divine glory which gilded Him, lighting up His person for a season and with a splendor not his own; but He was, and is absolute and perfect God; And the Apostle uses theotes to express the essential and personal Godhead of the Son.

It is theotes which occurs in Col 2:9. Here Paul declares that “all the fullness of the Godhead” dwells in Christ “bodily.” The phrase “fullness of the Godhead” is an especially emphatic one. It means everything without exception which goes to make up the Godhead, the totality of all that enters into the conception of Godhood. All this, says Paul, dwells in Christ “bodily,” that is after such a fashion as to be manifested in connection with a bodily organism. This is the distinction of Christ: in the Father and in the Spirit the whole plenitude of the Godhead dwells also, but not “bodily”; in them it is not manifested in connection with a bodily life. It is the incarnation which Paul has in mind; and he tells us that in the incarnate Son, the fullness of the Godhead dwells. The term chosen to express the Godhead here is the strongest and the most unambiguously decisive which the language affords. Theiotes may mean all that theotes can mean; on monotheistic lips it does mean just what theotes means; but theotes must mean the utmost that either term can mean. The distinction is, not that theotes refers to the essence and theiotes to the attributes; we cannot separate the essence and the attributes. Where the essence is, there the attributes are; they are merely the determinants of the essence. And where the attributes are, there the essence is; it is
merely the thing, of the kind of which they are the determinants. The distinction is that theotes emphasizes that it is the highest stretch of Divinity which is in question, while theiotes might possibly be taken as referring to Deity at a lower level. It is not merely such divinity as is shared by all the gods many and lords many of the heathen world, to which “heroes” might aspire, and “demons” attain, all the plenitude of which dwells in Christ as incarnate; but that Deity which is peculiar to the high gods; or, since Paul is writing out of a monotheistic consciousness, that Deity which is the Supreme God alone. All the fullness of supreme Deity dwells in Christ bodily. There is nothing in the God who is over all which is not in Christ. Probably no better rendering of this idea is afforded by our modern English than the term “Godhead,” in which the qualitative notion still lurks, though somewhat obscured behind the individualizing implication, and which in any event emphasizes precisely what Paul wishes here to assert–that all that enters into the conception of God, and makes God what we mean by the term “God,” dwells in Christ, and is manifested in Him in connection with a bodily organism.
Benjamin B. WarfieldSource: http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/strongs/1149147421-6953.html

The most extensive passage on this important idea is found in Trench’s Synonyms of the New Testament:

…yet they (theiotes and theotes) must not be regarded as identical in meaning, nor even as two different forms of the same word, which in process of time have separated off from one another, and acquired different shades of significance. On the contrary, there is a real distinction between them, and one which grounds itself on their different derivations; theotes being from theos, and theiotes, not from to theion, which is nearly though not quite equivalent to theos, but from the adjective theios …But in the second passage (Col. ii.9) St. Paul is declaring that in the Son there dwells all the fulness of absolute Godhead; they were no mere rays of divine glory which gilded Him, lighting up his person for a season and with a splendour not his own; but He was, and is, absolute and perfect God and the Apostle uses theotes to express this essential and personal Godhead of the Son

Okay, so considering the all the Greek in this verse, Paul affirmed that the fullness of the divine essence has permanently settled in Jesus' body. This is an exceptionally emphatic statement, and IMHO this kind of language is only applicable to YHWH.

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So when people were near him they were in the presence of the deity that resided in him. You are Spirit filled. To what ever degree you are yielded to God’s Holy Breath to that same degree are people in your presence also in the presence of God. When the priest entered the Temple on the day of atonement they were in the presence of God as revealed in the shakina glory. When the Ark of the Covenant was returned to the people of Israel they rejoiced because the “presence” of God had returned to them.

Music42 why do you suppose it is that the word “theotes” is NEVER USED in reference to ANY OTHER PERSON in the NT? Why also is it that the titles and attributes of YHWH are only applied to Yahshua and not other “spirit filled christians”. Why also is it that no other men are said to have fulfilled prophecies that YHWH made of HIMSELF? And lastly, why aren't OT passages that exclusively reference YHWH applied to men other than Yahshua? John the Baptist was “greatest man born of woman” yet the thong of His sandal He was not worthy to untie. Seems to me that there is something very unique about this man, something that elevates Him (infinately) higher above the rest of us…..

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Secondly you did not take into consideration the relational way in which Hebrews viewed God and the natural realm. They see a revealing of God as the very presence of God Himself. Jesus revealed God to them and therefore in Jesus’ presence God was with them.

John 1:18 NASB
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Blessings

December 23, 2006 at 9:14 am#35052

NickHassan

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
God was not begotten.
The Son of God, the monogenes God, who was with God, was.
One original
One image

Ps 2
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee

1Jn 5
“1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”

December 23, 2006 at 10:44 am#35062

Cult Buster

Participant

Jesus is God

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily

Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus
Phi 2:6 Who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God

Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came who is over all God blessed for ever Amen

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness God was manifest in the flesh

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding that we may know him that is true and we are in him that is true even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega (Jesus speaking), the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,..

Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy;

(The high priest understood Jesus’ claim to be God and wrongly accused Him of blasphemy.)
Blasphemy can only be committed against God.

Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mat 9:3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. (They knew that only God can forgive sins.)
Mat 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God,…

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God (Jesus).

Rev 22:13 I (Jesus) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mar 2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
Mar 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Mat 28:9 And they came and held him (Jesus) by the feet, and worshipped him.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God (Theos).
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35 And
they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: (because Jesus claimed the name of God)

Joh 10:9 I am the door:
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd:
Joh 11:25 … I am the resurrection,
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
Joh 15:1 I am the true vine,

Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Acts 7:59, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

Watch the squirming begin

December 23, 2006 at 4:23 pm#35069

music4two

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Dec. 23 2006,09:09)

WP and I have come to understandings before about attitudes. I am curious about your attitude. I am troubled by your preface of a believed mistake on my part. When a person says
He He” when seeing what they percieve a mistake by others I have to wonder about their heart in the mater.
Does you obvious joy come from your perception that you
got” someone?
Does your joy come from proving yourself right?
Curous — think about it.

In the majority of my post I have tried to urge board members to look at the motives and intentions of the heart of God and to ask ourselves if our motives and intentions match His in our actions and teachings.
think about it —–

December 23, 2006 at 4:45 pm#35072

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

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Let's test out your theory that (Logos)”word” should be translated Jesus. In the following few verses I have replaced “Logos” with “Jesus”. Do they become clearer or more confusing?

m42

Please explain. Who was the “Word that was made flesh?”.

Jn 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

December 23, 2006 at 5:04 pm#35076

NickHassan

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ Dec. 23 2006,10:44)