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Quote No, it was not natural life. That is not what the Father has. The Father has life that is self existing…needing no other. This is what He gave the Son because this is what He has. Quote
For he is the Eternal life that was with the Father.He is the word of God – the wisdom of God.
“ The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primal dust of the world.God's word and God's wisdom are from everlasting. God has never been without His word or wisdom. But as some point His wisdom was “brought forth”.
We know that Christ created all things:
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,Wisdom of God caring out the Fathers will.
[5 For whoever finds me finds life,
And obtains favor from the LORD;If you find wisdom, Jesus, you find life and obtain favor from the Lord.
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Jesus is called the Eternal life that was with the Father. God gives us Eternal life but that does not mean that we have existed from all eternity.
Hi Sscott
Sorry I disagree.
Look at the context. Jesus is talking about the resurection of men.
Jn 5:
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.If Jesus the Word/God was given life by the Father, then he would have had a beginning.
There is no scriptural evidence showing Jesus had a beginning.
You say…
Quote Jesus is called the Eternal life that was with the Father. God gives us Eternal life but that does not mean that we have existed from all eternity. Jesus is not called the Eternal life, he “is” the Eternal life. We recieve eternal life, which begins when we are saved and accept him who is the Eternal life who never had a beginning.
I Jn 1:2
For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)I Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.Eternal, aionios which means…
without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Life, zoe
1) lifeJesus had no beginning. The believer has no end!
Hi W,
You still have not explained Jn 5
“26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;”
Somehow
somewhere
the Son of God was GIVEN LIFE.Quote Hi W,
You still have not explained Jn 5
“26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;”
Somehow
somewhere
the Son of God was GIVEN LIFE.NH
Was Jesus the man Born? Then he was given life. But he unlike us, was given power to lay it down and power to take it up. This is what he means when he says he was given life in himself.
Here Ill post it again.
Quote NH wake up and smell the roses my friend. Jn 5:
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,Jn 10:
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.Jesus was speaking of his natural life as a man. He was the only man born of a woman that had the power by the commandment of the Father to rise from the dead.
That life was given to him by the Father.
Scripture nowhere says that the Father gave Jesus eternal life. For he is the Eternal life that was with the Father.
I Jn 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)You should read scripture with an open mind and heart and let it teach you
He that hath an ear let him hear!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 19 2006,15:45) Quote Hi W,
You still have not explained Jn 5
“26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;”
Somehow
somewhere
the Son of God was GIVEN LIFE.NH
Was Jesus the man Born? Then he was given life. But he unlike us, was given power to lay it down and power to take it up. This is what he means when he says he was given life in himself.
Here Ill post it again.
Quote NH wake up and smell the roses my friend. Jn 5:
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,Jn 10:
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.Jesus was speaking of his natural life as a man. He was the only man born of a woman that had the power by the commandment of the Father to rise from the dead.
That life was given to him by the Father.
Scripture nowhere says that the Father gave Jesus eternal life. For he is the Eternal life that was with the Father.
I Jn 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)You should read scripture with an open mind and heart and let it teach you
He that hath an ear let him hear!
Hi W,
So the son only came into being and was given life when he was conceived? That denies a lot of scripture. So as the Word who was with God he had no life?Scripture shows he had natural life which he lost but regained.
Jn 10
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life[5590 psuche], that I might take it again.
but also was the source of eternal life
10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life[2222zoe], and that they might have it more abundantly.
This eternal life he has been given. He existed when he was given this life or surely he would not know he had been given it. It is the same nature as the Father's life and he is appointed by God to be the source of this life for us.
Jn 5
“26 For as the Father hath life[2222] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [2222]in himself;Quote (Cult Buster @ Dec. 19 2006,04:01) music4two Quote Tell you what!!! Skip all of the scripture cut and pase theology and simply tell me how the Trinity doctrine helps me become like Christ. Do not cop out as you did before. If your teaching is so superior you shoould answer this question easily. You tell me how your Arian doctrine which you are happy to promote, helps you to become like Christ.
Your quote
Quote Still waiting for you to define the words “Word” and “Lord”. If you cannot do so then you have no capability to use those words to define your teaching. I thought that I answered you clearly.
Here it is again in the context of Jesus Christ.
Quote 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him (Jesus), My Lord and my God John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the the Word was God.
1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,1Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God (Jesus) was manifest in the flesh,
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Isaiha 9:6 For unto us a child (Jesus) is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
28:17 And when they saw him(Jesus), they worshipped him :
Jesus is both our Lord and God Worship Him!
So you coped out again. You refuse to tell me how the trinity doctrine helps someone to become like Christ. Can't you do it?
Does it or does it not function toward that goal?I am tired of being labeled an Arian.
1. No one knows what Arius really believed. His writings were destroyed and all that remains are the writings of his accusers. Are you making a judgement on his beliefs based only on their testimony? Does a righteous judge make judgements based on only one side of the story?
2. You have also accused me of being a member of the watchtower society. I have never been nor will ever be a member of that group. I am very much against many of their teachings.
Your generalities and prejudice have no bearing on the subject.
I am not interested in debating philosophy, nor am I interested in discussing scripture with those who will not study with proper hermaneutical principles.
I will only give you a couple of examples to prove my point.Do you believe “Lord” is a title meaning God? If so you are very wrong. The word in Greek is means master or one in authority. It is used in much the same way as we would call a Lord of the castle.
The fact that Thomas calls Jesus God is also not proof since in the way the Hebrews thought they called many revealings of God in the natural Physical realm God.
The burning bush called itself God and Moses bowed to worship it.We are called Gods (Elohyim) in Psalms 82.
John 10:34 Jesus quotes this verse calling men Gods. (Theos) Were these men really Gods?Thomas called Jesus Theos and therefore Jesus is God.
Jesus called us theos and refered to Yahweh calling us Elohyim. By your own proof standards we are therefore Gods!One of the key hermaneutical principles is that scripture must interpret scripture. If you define Thomas' statement literally then you must also do the same with the ones I quoted.
You have often attempted to used the name Elohyim to prove some plural definition of God. As I have repeatedly stated this is not a plural of individual persons but rather a plural of majesty, meaning the most high God. Hebrew writing style often referd to things in the plural to denote a matter of quality not quanity.
This is another breach of hermaneutics. By not taking into account the culture, language, writing style, who wrote it and to whom it was written, you are subject to grave error. I suspect that you read the verse with a preconcieved idea of a doctrine you wished to prove and only dug as far as necessary to find what could be shoe horned as proof.
“As others have already noted, the generally accepted understanding of elohiym is what is sometimes called the *majestic plural* of eloah – God. It has been suggested in some quarters that this some sort of remnant of ancient polytheism but that is merely speculation”.
“Despite it's plural form, elohyim is generally used as if it were singular and sometimes it does not refer to Yahweh, the God of Israel. For example, when Saul uses a medium to contact the spirit of the dead Samuel, the medium says she sees *elohyim* rising up from the earth (1 Sam 28:13) even
though is obviously singular. ““Ashtoreth is twice referred to as *elohyim* even though she is also obviously singular (and feminine). Likewise both Chemosh (Jud 11:14, 1 Kings 11:33) and Milkom (1 Kings 11:33) are also called *elohiym* and each is a single god. Interesting Baal is never referred to as elohiym*”.
(Curtesy of Jack Tladatsi)Where does this doctrine of the Trinity, you are so intent on proving, come from?
Everyone who is honest in historical study can easily ascertain the questionable history of it’s origins. From political motives to threats of banishment or death, this doctrine became part of church dogma in the same way, and at the same time, as many of the teachings of the Catholic church came into being.
I think the International Bible Illustrated Dictionary defines the Trinity well.
“It is indiscoverable by reason and incapable of proof from reason”
“The Doctrine of the Trinity in the New Testament is rather in the allusions then in expressed teachings.”
“ There are no analogies of it in nature, not even in man(body, soul, and spirit) since man is still one person.”Easton’s Bible Dictionary
“Trinity a word not found in Scripture, but used to express the doctrine of the unity of God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Gr. trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220)”
I wonder why we have to come up with made up words to define so important a doctrine?
Internation Standard Bible Encyclopedia
In point of fact, the doctrine of the Trinity is purely a revealed doctrine. That is to say, it embodies a truth which has never been discovered, and is indiscoverable, by natural reason. With all his searching, man has not been able to find out for himself the deepest things of God. Accordingly, ethnic thought has never attained a Trinitarian conception of God, nor does any eth
nic religion present in its representations of the divine being any analogy to the doctrine of the Trinity.As the doctrine of the Trinity is indiscoverable by reason, so it is incapable of proof from reason. There are no analogies to it in Nature, not even in the spiritual nature of man, who is made in the image of God.
So strongly is it felt in wide circles that a Trinitarian conception is essential to a worthy idea of God, that there is abroad a deep-seated unwillingness to allow that God could ever have made Himself known otherwise than as a Trinity. From this point of view it is inconceivable that the Old Testament revelation should know nothing of the Trinity. Accordingly, I. A. Dorner, for example, reasons thus:
“If, however–and this is the faith of universal Christendom–a living idea of God must be thought in some way after a Trinitarian fashion, it must be antecedently probable that traces of the Trinity cannot be lacking in the Old Testament, since its idea of God is a living or historical one.” Whether there really exist traces of the idea of the Trinity in the Old Testament, however, is a nice question. Certainly we cannot speak broadly of the revelation of the doctrine of the Trinity in the Old Testament. It is a plain matter of fact that none who have depended on the revelation embodied in the Old Testament alone have ever attained to the doctrine of the Trinity. (in other words those who only view the Old Testament could never come to a doctrine of the Trinity)It is another question, however, whether there may not exist in the pages of the Old Testament turns of expression or records of occurrences in which one already acquainted with the doctrine of the Trinity may fairly see indications of an underlying implication of it. (Again without a preconcieved idea of the Trinity it cannot be justifiably found in the OT.)”
Considering the last quotes, one might ask, if it could not be discovered in the OT, then the Jews of Jesus time did not know of it. If it was the true teaching of the Godhead, why was Jesus so unclear about it. Why did the Jews (who were monotheistic and would have vehemently apposed any allusion to three persons of God) do nothing when it was supposedly taught in the NT. Paul a master of the OT surely would have questioned this doctrine had it been taught by anyone.
Again it is not possible to come up with the doctrine of the Trinity from scripture unless one goes into the study looking for a way to prove it. This is one of the most damaging of all hermaneutical mistakes. It concerns motive and intent. (The very things Jesus always dealt with in teaching) When a persons sets out in study do they do so to discover the truth or do they do so to prove something they have already decided to believe. Without a preconcieved idea of the Trinity, no one would come up with the doctrine from scripture. Without outside concepts and wordage it is impossible to describe the Trinity. So what is it’s source? For that you must study the motives and intentions of those who formulated it concepts in the 3rd and 4th centuries.
Less then 50 years after the Roman Empire was burning Christians at the stake, the emperior of Rome calls a council to reconcile Christian sects within his empire. This was not an altruistic move prompted by a desire for the truth of God. This was purely political in nature. Done so to unite his kingdom. Constantine, himself a sun worshipper who believed he was God incarnate, presented the crucial formula declaring the Father and the Son are of the same substance. He then forced the few bishops present (it was a small minority of the total in the empire) to accept this formula under punishment of death or banishment.
Does it really seem feasable that this monster called Rome could have an enlightenment not clearly taught in scripture?
Following the Nicean council there were killings and banishments for decades of those who dared to dissagree with Roman Christian doctrine.This was the beginning of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. An organization which from that time forward has been guilty of horrible acts in the name of God. It is curious that when seeking to know the heart of God revealed in Jesus, I never once saw Him kill those who dissagreed with Him.
Does Constantine and the Catholic church contain the motives and intents of someone we should be learning esential doctrines from?
Think about it!I will at a future date post what I believe (not Arianism). This post is already too long.
Hi ,
It is obvious that the biblical godliness in origins of Jesus has nothing to with the unbiblical addition to scripture of the strange trinity theory.Hi Brothers and sisters in Christ.
The Apostles new of the attempts of Satan to divide the Church and to bring in damnable heresies.
II Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.They are very keen at quoting scripture to mislead and to misguide. The immature would easily be strayed by these false teachers.
Because the immature are unskill in the word of righteousness.
Heb 5
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
Let us desire the “sincere milk of the word' that we may grow.
Prov 3:13
Happy [is] the man [that] findeth wisdom, and the man [that] getteth understanding.I Pe 2:2
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:Pauls desire is that we may grow up in the Lord and in our Faith so that our Faith could not be moved.
He had this desire…
Col 1:9
For this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;Fill us Lord with your truth and all spiritual understanding that we may know you!
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,..
The Word is Jesus our God.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;In case you missed it
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto
the supper of the great God;Jesus the Lamb of God, is the Great God
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him (Jesus), My Lord and my God.
Quote John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,..
The Word is Jesus our God.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;In case you missed it
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto
the supper of the great God;Jesus the Lamb of God, is the Great God
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him (Jesus), My Lord and my G
CB
Well put!!!
He truly is Lord and God!
Hi W,
Since for us there is ONE GOD then is Jesus your choice?
Should we not rather serve the One he worshipped and served as God if we follow him.
He did not worship himself did he?Quote Hi W,
Since for us there is ONE GOD then is Jesus your choice?
Should we not rather serve the One he worshipped and served as God if we follow him.
He did not worship himself did he?NH
Maybe Im missing something. But I dont know of a scripture that shows the Son worshipping The Father. Please show me.
Hi W,
If the Son, whom we follow, did not worship His God then do we need to worship God either?
If this is not plain to you then do you have any hope of finding your way back to the path of truth?Did Jesus pray to other than His God?
Matthew 14:23
And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.
Mark 6:46
And when he had sent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray.
Luke 6:12
And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.
Luke 9:28
And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
Matthew 26:36
Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
Mark 14:35
And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
Mark 14:39
And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.He prayed to his God, and he taught us to pray, and his prayer begins with worship.
Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.Quote Hi W,
If the Son, whom we follow, did not worship His God then do we need to worship God either?
If this is not plain to you then do you have any hope of finding your way back to the path of truth?Did Jesus pray to other than His God?
Matthew 14:23
And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.
Mark 6:46
And when he had sent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray.
Luke 6:12
And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.
Luke 9:28
And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
Matthew 26:36
Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
Mark 14:35
And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
Mark 14:39
And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.He prayed to his God, and he taught us to pray, and his prayer begins with worship.
Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.NH
No worship here. Prayer is not worship. Prayer is communicating with God. Now you can worship God while you pray.
But I dont see Jesus worshiping or praising the Father. Where does Jesus [proskuneo] the Father? I am sure that his Love for the Father could be a form of worship.
But this isnt the worship that we see carried out by men to their God.
Hadnt thought about it. Just asking.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 22 2006,06:28) Quote Hi W,
If the Son, whom we follow, did not worship His God then do we need to worship God either?
If this is not plain to you then do you have any hope of finding your way back to the path of truth?Did Jesus pray to other than His God?
Matthew 14:23
And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.
Mark 6:46
And when he had sent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray.
Luke 6:12
And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.
Luke 9:28
And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
Matthew 26:36
Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
Mark 14:35
And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
Mark 14:39
And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.He prayed to his God, and he taught us to pray, and his prayer begins with worship.
Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.NH
No worship here. Prayer is not worship. Prayer is communicating with God. Now you can worship God while you pray.
But I dont see Jesus worshiping or praising the Father. Where does Jesus [proskuneo] the Father? I am sure that his Love for the Father could be a form of worship.
…
How about?(Mat 26:30) And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
(Mark 14:26) And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
Plus when satan told Jesus to worship/proskuneo him,
Jesus replied from Scripture that YAHWEH alone ought to worshipped/proskuneo-ed. [Matt 4.9-10, Luke 4.7-8]
So in that context, it appears that the Messiah solely worshipped GOD, His Father. Would you not agree?Quote How about? (Mat 26:30) And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
(Mark 14:26) And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
Plus when satan told Jesus to worship/proskuneo him,
Jesus replied from Scripture that YAHWEH alone ought to worshipped/proskuneo-ed. [Matt 4.9-10, Luke 4.7-8]
So in that context, it appears that the Messiah solely worshipped GOD, His Father. Would you not agree?AP
Inference.
No scriptural proof. Jesus also is in the throne of God as the lamb being worshipped, but we see no evidence the Lamb was participating in the Worship.
Rev 5
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 22 2006,20:46) Quote How about? (Mat 26:30) And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
(Mark 14:26) And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
Plus when satan told Jesus to worship/proskuneo him,
Jesus replied from Scripture that YAHWEH alone ought to worshipped/proskuneo-ed. [Matt 4.9-10, Luke 4.7-8]
So in that context, it appears that the Messiah solely worshipped GOD, His Father. Would you not agree?AP
Inference.
No scriptural proof. Jesus also is in the throne of God as the lamb being worshipped, but we see no evidence the Lamb was participating in the Worship.
Rev 5
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Hi W,
Let's look at the passage again if you don't mind:Matt 26:26 And as THEY were eating, JESUS took bread, *blessed and broke it, and gave it to THE DISCIPLES and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to THEM, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the *new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom.”
30 And when THEY had sung a hymn, THEY went out to the Mount of Olives.
Questions:
And as THEY were eating… so Jesus was not eating? He says below that he would not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until that day… so I feel confident in believing he was eating too. He'd asked them to prepare the passover meal, had a room reserved for them and come there purposely to celebrate this last passover with them.When THEY had sung a hymn, THEY went out to the Mt. of Olives. Jesus was part of the “THEY,” brother WJ. If this was not the message intended to be conveyed, then things should have been clarified in much the same way we are shown that it was Jesus (and not the disciples) who took the bread and broke it and gave it saying…
Matt 26:31 Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written:'I will strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'*…36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while I go and pray over there.” 37 And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed.
As our utmost shephered, who strikes the Highest?
Quote Hi W,
Let's look at the passage again if you don't mind:Matt 26:26 And as THEY were eating, JESUS took bread, *blessed and broke it, and gave it to THE DISCIPLES and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to THEM, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the *new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom.”
30 And when THEY had sung a hymn, THEY went out to the Mount of Olives.Questions:
And as THEY were eating… so Jesus was not eating? He says below that he would not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until that day… so I feel confident in believing he was eating too. He'd asked them to prepare the passover meal, had a room reserved for them and come there purposely to celebrate this last passover with them.When THEY had sung a hymn, THEY went out to the Mt. of Olives. Jesus was part of the “THEY,” brother WJ. If this was not the message intended to be conveyed, then things should have been clarified in much the same way we are shown that it was Jesus (and not the disciples) who took the bread and broke it and gave it saying…
Matt 26:31 Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written:
'I will strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'*…36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while I go and pray over there.” 37 And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed.
As our utmost shephered, who strikes the Highest?
Cubes
If you want to say that Jesus “proskuneod” the Father based on this 1 Scripture which is vague to say the least. Fine.
You can believe as you will. I choose not to for I see no other place in the scriptures that says Jesus , [proskuneod] the Father.
I may be wrong.
Quote As our utmost shephered, who strikes the Highest? Cubes
Remember Jesus was a man to. He took on the form of a servant and fulfilled all righteousness a man.
If what you are implying is that Jesus was merily a man and not God in the flesh, there is no evidence here.
Hi W,
You ignore scripture to your peril.
It is the Jesus Christ, the only begotten SON of God who came in the flesh.1Jn 4
” 1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Such is the voice of antichrist.
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