Jesus Christ is God

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi sscott, The Son of God is the firstborn of all CREATION. He has preeminence in all things under God. He is the first and last in relation to creation. God is before all things as the source. Nothing will be after God so God also is first and last, Alpha and Omega

Lie! There is no scripture that says the Word\Son had a beginning.:O

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
Jn 5
” 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; “

If he was given life then did he already have the life he was given?

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 18 2006,23:58)

Quote Hi W, Is this flawed greek logic at work? When God has a son that son must be God? So God is shown to have many sons in Gen 6, Job 1,2 and 38 so these must all be God too? ps 89 ” 5And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints. 6For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD? 7God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.” Certainly they may also be called gods as in 1Cor 8 and Ps 97 and other places but it does not alter the fact that there is only ONE TRUE GOD for us. 1Cor 8 “4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” NH There is only one Begotten Son. So why do you try to distort the truth?

Hi H,
There is only one monogenes son, but there were other sons before the foundation of earth.

Jb 38
” 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Jesus is the ONLY begotten of the Father, God's Son.  But does that make Him the Father? Are you your father?  No you are OF your father. Would it be safe to say that Jesus is God of this new creation.  He is the first of this new creation.  Would it also be safe to say that Jesus will give His kingdom to His Father who is GOD of everything even Jesus.

kenrch

You say…

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Jesus is the ONLY begotten of the Father, God's Son.  But does that make Him the Father? Are you your father?  No you are OF your father.

No.
And if you have been listening or understand anything about a Trinitarians view, you would not even ask this question.

You say…

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Would it be safe to say that Jesus is God of this new creation.  He is the first of this new creation

No. Unless you are a Polytheist: belief in or worship of more than one god.

Why try to fabricate doctrine based on human intellect?

One God.. Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Compare…John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Jer 10:10
But the LORD [is] the true God, he [is] the living God, and an ***everlasting king***: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

Who is this one who cause the earth to tremble and not be able to abide his indignation?

I Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

**This scripture is plainly speaking of the Son**

Jude
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Heb 1:6-9
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

You say…

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Would it also be safe to say that Jesus will give His kingdom to His Father who is GOD of everything even Jesus.

It depends on what you mean by Jesus giving up the kingdom to his Father.

Does this mean he will get off the throne and hand everything back to the Father and become one of us like a brother.

I think not.

Isa 9:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

II Pe 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Dan 7:
13 saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

And so…

I Cor 15:
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Son shall be subject to the Father, that God may be all in all.

But until his last enemy is destroyed “death” he continues to fulfill his Priestly duty as King and Priest of his Kingdom.

Heb 2:
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

There is no conflict in the Godhead. Jesus the man born of the virgin calls his Father God.
The Word that was with God, and is God, the Eternal Life that was with the Father is now seated at the right hand of God,and has been glorified with the Glory that he had with the Father.

Kenrch

Surely you are not suggesting that Jesus will not have a throne or rule when he gives up the kingdom back to his Father?

In the end in the new heaven and new earth, he sits upon the throne, which is where we see him now at the right hand of God.

Who do we see here?

Rev. 21:
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven sayi
ng, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Paul desired that believers would see a wonderful mystery…

Eph 1:
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather ***together in one all things in Christ***, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Notice it says he will gather together all things **in Christ**.

Hmm. Wonder how he is gonna do that?

We see Jesus the Alpha and Omega. All the fullness of the Godhead in him.

God, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

[Proclaimer]

I think the word “beginning” may be related to time and if time is created, then Jesus cannot have a beginning in that sense because he wasn't created, i.e., made by God through Christ. But it does say that he is the beginning of the creation of God, so it may be true in that sense of the word.

However there is nothing in scripture that says that Jesus is eternally generated or has always been, so to argue beginning and non-beginning may a non-question. A non-question like “Have you stopped beating your wife”. If you answer yes, it means you are, and if you answer no, it means you were. Politicians who wish to trap someone in a debate often use non-questions, and I think as Christians we don't need to go beyond that which is written. That way we can know for sure what we are answering and talking about.

If we assume that Jesus has always existed, then we have 2 eternal beings (2 Gods) and we know this is against scripture. If we say that God is a substance that spawns 2 or 3 personalities, then we are starting to get silly and we assume way to much.

But scripture is clear that God is the source of the son. So it is fitting that God is called the Father. It is clear that God the Father is the source and Jesus the Word is the image of God. This should be enough for us created beings to believe in. If we try to venture further from this (and scripture) then how can we understand anything that isn't revealed to us in scripture?

Should we not be humble and believe scripture, even if we cannot formulate it into an idol or model for our mind to understand?

We also know that Jesus was with God in the beginning as the Word and that God created all things through him. This too should be enough and doesn't need to be a point of contention. It is scriptural so we should ALL believe it. Otherwise we create confusion and unnecessary division.

Ephesians 4:3
Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

Now looking at scripture we do have the one Nick quoted about the life that was given to the son. We also have these ones.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Revelation 3:14
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi w, Jn 5 ” 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; “ If he was given life then did he already have the life he was given?

NH wake up and smell the roses my friend.

Jn 5:
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jn 10:
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Jesus was speaking of his natural life as a man. He was the only man born of a woman that had the power by the commandment of the Father to rise from the dead.

That life was given to him by the Father.

Scripture nowhere says that the Father gave Jesus eternal life. For he is the Eternal life that was with the Father.
I Jn 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

You should read scripture with an open mind and heart and let it teach you.  

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
You quote
“I Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

**This scripture is plainly speaking of the Son**

So Jesus came to give us understanding that we may KNOW God, the only true God, his father.
He did not come just to introduce himself to us but to show us God, IN him.
So we are IN Him who is true, God, if we are IN His Son Jesus Christ, who is IN the true God.
Eternal life is IN the Son, IN God.

Otherwise you will have to say the Father is not the true God. Is that what you mean?

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Context, context

Jn 5
” 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

So if Jesus was referring here to his natural human life why is it that those who live and hear him pass from death to life? They too could not be alive to hear him if it was human life being spoken of. Besides he lost that life at calvary and we cannot lose eternal life which is in the Son.

1Jn 5
” 11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

This is the life.

ZOE

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi w, You quote “I Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. **This scripture is plainly speaking of the Son** So Jesus came to give us understanding that we may KNOW God, the only true God, his father. He did not come just to introduce himself to us but to show us God, IN him. So we are IN Him who is true, God, if we are IN His Son Jesus Christ, who is IN the true God. Eternal life is IN the Son, IN God. Otherwise you will have to say the Father is not the true God. Is that what you mean?

NH

Why not just believe the scripture?

I Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

I know this scripture does not fit into your Arian view, but it does fit into a trinitarian view!

One God, Father Son and Holy Ghost.

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
You quote
“I Jn 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

Eternal life can begin for you right now.

If the meaning of eternal
IS RETROSPECTIVE THAT STATEMENT WOULD BE NONSENSICAL.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi W, Context, context Jn 5 ” 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; So if Jesus was referring here to his natural human life why is it that those who live and hear him pass from death to life? They too could not be alive to hear him if it was human life being spoken of. Besides he lost that life at calvary and we cannot lose eternal life which is in the Son. 1Jn 5 ” 11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” This is the life. ZOE

Are you saying the Eternal Spirit of Crist died?

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 19 2006,01:01)

Quote Hi w, You quote “I Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. **This scripture is plainly speaking of the Son** So Jesus came to give us understanding that we may KNOW God, the only true God, his father. He did not come just to introduce himself to us but to show us God, IN him. So we are IN Him who is true, God, if we are IN His Son Jesus Christ, who is IN the true God. Eternal life is IN the Son, IN God. Otherwise you will have to say the Father is not the true God. Is that what you mean? NH Why not just believe the scripture? I Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. I know this scripture does not fit into your Arian view, but it does fit into a trinitarian view! One God, Father Son and Holy Ghost.

Hi w,
Is the Father not the TRUE GOD?
Jesus said He is.

Jn17
“3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Are there TWO true Gods?
??Polytheism.

1Jn 5
” 1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

He was begotten of God.
That is why he is the Son of God.
Seems simple enough.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi w, You quote “I Jn 1: 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) Eternal life can begin for you right now. If the meaning of eternal IS RETROSPECTIVE THAT STATEMENT WOULD BE NONSENSICAL.

NH

Ill put it this way again.

There is no scripture that says God gave Jesus Eternal Life, For he is the Eternal life that was with the Father.

Abide in the Word as a son must do.
Abhor Babylon and her idols.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi w, Is the Father not the TRUE GOD? Jesus said He is. Jn17 “3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Are there TWO true Gods? ??Polytheism. 1Jn 5 ” 1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. He was begotten of God. That is why he is the Son of God. Seems simple enough.

One true God NH..

Father, Son, Holy Ghost…Godhead.

Here we go round the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush….

Should we not respect and rely on scripture for truth as Jesus did if we follow him?

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
Eternal life can begin for you right now.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi w, Eternal life can begin for you right now.

I know you would like to think that I am not saved NH. For the record I have Eternal life because I have recieved the Son who is Eternal Life.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Did you have eternal life before you were given it?
Christ was given eternal life too.
The life is in the Son.
ZOE

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
The Son too had life already when he was given eternal life as the Spirit of God entered his being at the Jordan. He had to lose that life at calvary so that the unity with the Father was complete. The grain of his wheat had to fall to the ground and die for the life of the Father to be alone the life in him and raise him from the dead.
We follow him.

[Cult Buster]

music4two

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Tell you what!!!  Skip all of the scripture cut and pase theology and simply tell me how the Trinity doctrine helps me become like Christ. Do not cop out as you did before. If your teaching is so superior you shoould answer this question easily.

You tell me how your Arian doctrine which you are happy to promote, helps you to become like Christ.

Your quote

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Still waiting for you to define the words “Word” and “Lord”. If you cannot do so then you have no capability to use those words to define your teaching.

I thought that I answered you clearly.

Here it is again in the context of Jesus Christ.

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20:28   And Thomas answered and said unto him (Jesus), My Lord and my God John1:1   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and   the the Word was God. 1:14   And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, 1Timothy  3:16   And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God (Jesus) was manifest in the flesh, Hebrews 1:8   But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Isaiha 9:6   For unto us a child (Jesus) is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 1:23   Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is,   God with us. 28:17  And when they saw him(Jesus), they worshipped him :

Jesus is both our Lord and God   Worship Him!      

[sscott]

WorshippingJesus,Dec. wrote:

[/quote]

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Jn 5: 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, Jn 10: 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

No, it was not natural life. That is not what the Father has. The Father has life that is self existing…needing no other. This is what He gave the Son because this is what He has.

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For he is the Eternal life that was with the Father.

He is the word of God – the wisdom of God.

“ The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primal dust of the world.

God's word and God's wisdom are from everlasting. God has never been without His word or wisdom. But as some point His wisdom was “brought forth”.

We know that Christ created all things:

30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,

Wisdom of God caring out the Fathers will.

[5 For whoever finds me finds life,
And obtains favor from the LORD;

If you find wisdom, Jesus, you find life and obtain favor from the Lord.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”

2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Jesus is called the Eternal life that was with the Father. God gives us Eternal life but that does not mean that we have existed from all eternity.

[Author]

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