Jesus Christ is God

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
Perhaps you will find some followers
but would it not be better to highlight the words of your Master?

[Proclaimer]

To music4two.

Quote (music4two @ Dec. 14 2006,10:49)

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 13 2006,09:39) Jesus is not the Almighty God, he is the son of the Almighty God, the Lord, and the Word of God. Simple, even a child can believe this. True faith believes in one God – the Father and one Lord – Jesus Christ. True faith understands that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. True faith understands that Jesus is at the right hand of God, interceeding for us. True faith doesn't try to change truth into a lie. Any doctrine or teaching that tries to change these truths is from the Evil One. What will be the reward of men who help the Father of Lies in his quest to hide the truths that God has generously revealed to us? Jesus is not the Almighty God, he is the son of the Almighty God, the Lord, and the Word of God. Please define “Lord” and “Word”. Simple, even a child can believe this. *True faith believes in one God – the Father and one Lord – Jesus Christ. I can agree with this statement depending on how you define “Lord”. *True faith understands that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. Again no problem depending on the definition of Lord and Christ. *True faith understands that Jesus is at the right hand of God, interceeding for us. I agree here too providing you agree that “at the right hand of God” is a position of power and not a literal place. *True faith doesn't try to change truth into a lie. Any doctrine or teaching that tries to change these truths is from the Evil One. You are right here too. The question remains as it was. That which is truth must be determined. Some on this board do not want to study the original languages or cultures in which the authors wrote. It is impossible to understand the real meaning the writers were trying to convey without these necessary studies.

Lord/lord in the New Testament is completely different to LORD, in the old.

So you cannot read LORD in the Old Testament as Jesus.

Rather Jesus is the son of the LORD. The LORD made Jesus Lord of his creation.

LORD in the Old Testament is YHWH, which is suppose to be a name.

Lord in the New Testament is a title describing authority. It is similar to how we use lord in English today. E.g., landlord is someone who owns the property you live in. Or the House of lords in English parliament is the upper house of the Parliament of the United Kingdom and is also commonly referred to as “the Lords”.

Lord in English means a person who has authority, control, or power over others; a master, chief, or ruler.

Now scripture tells us that God (who is YHWH) made Jesus both Lord and Christ. So he has been given a name above all names.

Q: Who gave him this name?
A: God did.

So if we reject Christ, we reject God whom he represents and declares and in whom has God ordained that we come through in order to be one with God.

So as it is written, God sent his son into the world to save it. God didn't turn up himself as no one can see God and no one has seen his form. Rather God was in his son, reconciling the world back to himself.

So for us there is one God the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 14 2006,20:03)

Quote Jesus is not the Almighty God, he is the son of the Almighty God, the Lord, and the Word of God. Simple, even a child can believe this. True faith believes in one God – the Father and one Lord – Jesus Christ. True faith understands that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. True faith understands that Jesus is at the right hand of God, interceeding for us. True faith doesn't try to change truth into a lie. Any doctrine or teaching that tries to change these truths is from the Evil One. What will be the reward of men who help the Father of Lies in his quest to hide the truths that God has generously revealed to us? * True faith believes all of the scriptures and not just a selective few * True faith accepts and Obey the Father Gods decree that his Son is God and sets him at his right hand commanding the creation to honor him as himself * True Faith believes in the Holy Spirit as a person as Jesus himself taught us * True Faith Believes in Jesus not just as The Son but as God one with the Father, and Holy Spirit. What will be the fate of those who reject the teachings of the scriptures, and even what the Father says concerning his Son, therefore assisting the Father of lies, Satan in trying to strip Jesus of his true place with the Father?

To WorshippingJesus'

I can back up all my statements with scripture.

Let's see you do the same with your statements.

[music4two]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 14 2006,01:47)

To music4two. Quote (music4two @ Dec. 14 2006,10:49) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 13 2006,09:39) Jesus is not the Almighty God, he is the son of the Almighty God, the Lord, and the Word of God. Simple, even a child can believe this. True faith believes in one God – the Father and one Lord – Jesus Christ. True faith understands that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. True faith understands that Jesus is at the right hand of God, interceeding for us. True faith doesn't try to change truth into a lie. Any doctrine or teaching that tries to change these truths is from the Evil One. What will be the reward of men who help the Father of Lies in his quest to hide the truths that God has generously revealed to us? Jesus is not the Almighty God, he is the son of the Almighty God, the Lord, and the Word of God. Please define “Lord” and “Word”. Simple, even a child can believe this. *True faith believes in one God – the Father and one Lord – Jesus Christ. I can agree with this statement depending on how you define “Lord”. *True faith understands that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. Again no problem depending on the definition of Lord and Christ. *True faith understands that Jesus is at the right hand of God, interceeding for us. I agree here too providing you agree that “at the right hand of God” is a position of power and not a literal place. *True faith doesn't try to change truth into a lie. Any doctrine or teaching that tries to change these truths is from the Evil One. You are right here too. The question remains as it was. That which is truth must be determined. Some on this board do not want to study the original languages or cultures in which the authors wrote.  It is impossible to understand the real meaning the writers were trying to convey without these necessary studies. Lord/lord in the New Testament is completely different to LORD, in the old. So you cannot read LORD in the Old Testament as Jesus. Rather Jesus is the son of the LORD. The LORD made Jesus Lord of his creation. LORD in the Old Testament is YHWH, which is suppose to be a name. Lord in the New Testament is a title describing authority. It is similar to how we use lord in English today. E.g., landlord is someone who owns the property you live in. Or the House of lords in English parliament is the upper house of the Parliament of the United Kingdom and is also commonly referred to as “the Lords”. Lord in English means a person who has authority, control, or power over others; a master, chief, or ruler. Now scripture tells us that God (who is YHWH) made Jesus both Lord and Christ. So he has been given a name above all names. Q: Who gave him this name? A: God did. So if we reject Christ, we reject God whom he represents and declares and in whom has God ordained that we come through in order to be one with God. So as it is written, God sent his son into the world to save it. God didn't turn up himself as no one can see God and no one has seen his form. Rather God was in his son, reconciling the world back to himself. So for us there is one God the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.

I agree completely !!!!!

[music4two]

Some say that “word” (logos) cannot be equated with the plan of God.
Consider these verses—

Acts 8: 4 and 5
4Therefore, those who had been scattered went about preaching the word.

 5Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming Christ to them.

What was Phillip proclaiming? Obviously he was not standing on a corner shouting, “Statement of God, ststement of God” over and over again. He was preaching the gospel, the plan of God fulfilled and revealed in Jesus Christ.

Acts 19:20
 20So the word of the Lord was growing mightily and prevailing.

Was Jesus or a transcendental statement literally growing and prevailing? Of course not! The gospel or plan of God was growing, spreading and prevailing.

I Cor 1:17 and 18
17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

 18For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Paul cannot be much clearer. He is speaking of the gospel and calls it the word.

Eph 5
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

Here we see a type of the church. Did Jesus literally come back to Earth with a bucket and wash her body? Is a statement or action of speech capable of washing someone? Of course not! But the plan of God, the Gospel in Christ is the function and method by which we are all cleansed and made spotless.

Col 4
 3praying at the same time for us as well, that God will open up to us a door for the word, so that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ, for which I have also been imprisoned;

What is the mystery of Christ? Certainly Paul is going to make a statement, but what is the purpose of that statement? What is Paul trying to convey? Obviously the plan and purpose of God revealed in Jesus Christ and the Gospel.

Jesus Himself had the mission to preach the Gospel and it is referred to as the “word”. The first 12 verses of Mark 2 are all about Jesus authority to forgive sin. Could there be a better description of the Gospel then that?
Mark 2
 2And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room, not even near the door; and He was speaking the word to them.

Acts 11
 19So then those who were scattered because of the persecution that occurred in connection with Stephen made their way to Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch, speaking the word to no one except to Jews alone.

What was it they were afraid to speak? The gospel or plan of God.

Luke 8:11
“Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.

What is the seed if not the gospel or plan of God

Luke 8:21
But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

So the word of God is something that requires action. You cannot do a person or a statement, but you can do the plan of God.

Luke 11:28
But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

The word “observe” in this verse is phulasso which means to watch, guard or protect. Again something that requires an action. Can you watch, guard or protect a statement? No but you can do so to a plan.

Acts 6:7
The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.

A statement cannot literally spread, but the plan of God can and does in this verse converting many.

Acts 13:5
When they reached Salamis, they began to proclaim the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews; and they also had John as their helper.

What did they proclaim in the synagogues? The gospel or plan of God.

Acts 18:11
And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

What did they teach if not the plan of God?

Colossians 1:25
Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,

What is Paul preaching if not the gospel or plan of God?

The purpose of any statement is to communicate, describe or otherwise put forth an idea or concept.

What is the statement of God attempting to communicate and to whom?

I am sure you agree that God has something to communication to humanity. Does God wish to only tell us that He making a statement or does He wish us to understand that statement?
It seems simple to me that if God wants to communicate one thing to us it is His plan for us that is revealed in Jesus Christ. Without understanding God’s statement of His plan we can never be what He desires for us.

Logos is used and defined in many ways in Christianity. It is primarily thought to literally be Jesus Christ. Other words used in conjunction with Logos are statement, speech, rhetoric, idea, plan, concept, motive or intention. Other definitions of logos are found in the realms of Greek philosophy. These include (but not limited to) order, creative energy, reason or meaning.

“Originally employed as a technical philosophical term by the Greek philosopher Heraclitus (sixth century b.c.), logos became a particularly important concept for the Stoics (third century b.c. and later). In Stoicism, logos was the principle and pattern that gave the world or cosmos its character and coherence. The term was taken over by Philo, the Alexandrian philosophical theologian of Judaism, who was roughly a contemporary of the apostle Paul. By means of the logos, Philo sought to reconcile Greek philosophical theories about the universe (cosmology) with the biblical accounts of God’s creating the world by his spoken word. God’s logos became a clearly identifiable entity, mediating between God and the world, the mode of the divine creativity and revelation.”
(taken from Harper’s Bible Dictionary )

Before reading my conclussions it is important to understand that those who wrote the scriptures were Hebrew. Hebrews thought in concrete patterns and their writings reflect this method of reasoning. Because of this, much of what they wrote was allegory and must be interpreted in that light.

Is Logos a statement, speech or rhetoric?
Yes? An allegorical statement, however a statement alone is meaningless unless we understand what is being communicated.
A statement is a vehicle by which something is communicated. This communication can be received through any of the senses.
ie; I cook a delicious meal for my wife. When she (by virtue of taste) sees the trouble I went to in preparing the meal, I will have communicated something to her. I made a statement!
In the case of the Logos we must conclude that God has only very important things to tell us. What could be more important to us, then his plan for us?

Is the Logos Jesus Christ?
Yes, in a qualified way. The Logos of God and the person of Jesus Christ cannot exist as we know them apart from eachother.
Whether you believe Jesus pre-existed or not, without the intention, plan or motives of God, Jesus would not have come to be on the Earth. Without Jesus’ perfect life, example and sin sacrifice the plan of salvation would not work.

The Logos is the blueprint and Jesus is the building. God had a blueprint. It was partially revealed in the Tabernacle and the Temple. A house wherein God Himself would dwell. Jesus is the perfect Temple God intended. In Him dwelt the fullness of the Spirit or breath of God. In Him was revealed the Shakina Glor
y.

the following verses show the connection between logos and Jesus. –

Hebrews 4
Forthe word (logos) of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

(The true plan of God and Jesus himself, do not deal with mental exercises or head knowledge. The plan of God and Jesus deal with with man’s thoughts and intentions.)

 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

(The pronoun “His” in this verse refers to the previous verse and God)

 14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

(Now we see the context change to Jesus.)

 15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

 16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

(So the Logos and Jesus are linked togther)

Is Logos an idea or concept?
Only in the sense that the idea of the messiah and plan of God was in the mind of God from the beginning.

Is the Logos of God the plan of God?
Yes! Again in allegory the logos (through Christ) reveals the plan of God.

Is the logos the motive of God”
Yes, In allegory. God’s motive is love. It is His nature and greatest attribute. You can say the logos is a statement about God’s plan, it is the plan itself, or it is the revealing of the plan in Jesus, the motive of love remains the driving force behind the logos.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

In discussing the last definition (intention) I would hope we can agree God had an intention when He created the universe and in particular, humanity. I believe it is and has always been God’s intention to raise up sons and daughters unto Himself. Children that contain within themselves the very presence of God by which they attain the moral characteristics of God Himself. God has revealed His intention, motive and plan throughout the ages in various ways. The covenant with Abraham. The miracles performed to bring the Hebrews out of bondage in Egypt. The temple the creation itself and the Torah. As I have explained in other posts, the Torah or the law was not a tool of condemnation. The Torah was a standard by which God could show us where we have missed the mark or fallen short (sin) of His character. Utilizing the very functional plan of God we can then turn to our mediator and ask help on how to do better the next time. By this process do we overcome and become like Jesus. We call these tests or trials. Some learn very quickly and others must repeat the lessons more then once. God, a good Father, is patient. (Of course Jesus, though tested in all manner like other men, never missed the mark) Everything the prophets, apostles and Jesus said and did was designed to teach us how to develop God’s moral character within ourselves. I believe that Jesus was the first fruits of God’s plan. He was the first to achieve this goal and is the pattern and example for rest of mankind.
If there are those among you that do not believe Jesus to be our example and that we cannot or do not need to work with our saviour to become like Him, I can only say we must agree to disagree.

Revelation 19:7
[ Marriage of the Lamb ] “Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.”

Philippians 2:12
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Since Jesus is the fullfillment of the Logos of God, do we need the blueprint anymore? Only if you intend to make more buildings.

God dwells in Jesus –
Col 2:9
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

God dwells in us –
Ephesians 3:19
and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

Jesus is the temple of God

John 2:19
Jesus answered them, ” Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

We are the temple of God

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

Jesus is the lamp and God is the illumination.

Revelation 21:23
And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.

We are illuminated by God –

Revelation 22:5
And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

In a nut shell —–>
Ephesians 4

 11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; (that’s us)

 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

(God defines a mature man as one who measures up to the full stature of Christ)

14As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

(It seems we are to be more concerned about relationship and becoming like Christ then about doctrine)

 15but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

(Grow up IN ALL RESPECTS INTO HIM)

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,
You say
“A statement cannot literally spread, but the plan of God can and does in this verse converting many.”

PLANS do not spread as they are preparatory thoughts but the fruit of those plans in WORDS SPOKEN and seeds sown surely does.

Matt 13
” 1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.

2And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. “

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 14 2006,02:49)

Hi m42, You say “A statement cannot literally spread, but the plan of God can and does in this verse converting many.” PLANS do not spread as they are preparatory thoughts but the fruit of those plans in WORDS SPOKEN and seeds sown surely does. Matt 13 ” 1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side. 2And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. 3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: 5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: 6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: 8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. 9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. 10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. 18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. “

Again what was the seed? What is the statement God is imparting?
That which God imparted and that which Jesus imparted by his words and deeds was the gospel. the plan of God. what else did Jesus have to say? this was His mission and purpose in being on the Earth.

[NickHassan]

Hi M42,
God sends His WORD.
Not His plan
or His thoughts
but the Words from His mouth through His Servants.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Posted: Dec. 14 2006,02:43   ——————————————————————————– Some say that “word” (logos) cannot be equated with the plan of God. Consider these verses— Acts 8: 4 and 5 4Therefore, those who had been scattered went about preaching the word. 5Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming Christ to them. What was Phillip proclaiming? Obviously he was not standing on a corner shouting, “Statement of God, ststement of God” over and over again. He was preaching the gospel, the plan of God fulfilled and revealed in Jesus Christ. Acts 19:20 20So the word of the Lord was growing mightily and prevailing. Was Jesus or a transcendental statement literally growing and prevailing? Of course not! The gospel or plan of God was growing, spreading and prevailing. I Cor 1:17 and 18 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. 18For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. Paul cannot be much clearer. He is speaking of the gospel and calls it the word. Eph 5 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. Here we see a type of the church. Did Jesus literally come back to Earth with a bucket and wash her body? Is a statement or action of speech capable of washing someone? Of course not! But the plan of God, the Gospel in Christ is the function and method by which we are all cleansed and made spotless. Col 4 3praying at the same time for us as well, that God will open up to us a door for the word, so that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ, for which I have also been imprisoned; What is the mystery of Christ? Certainly Paul is going to make a statement, but what is the purpose of that statement? What is Paul trying to convey? Obviously the plan and purpose of God revealed in Jesus Christ and the Gospel. Jesus Himself had the mission to preach the Gospel and it is referred to as the “word”. The first 12 verses of Mark 2 are all about Jesus authority to forgive sin. Could there be a better description of the Gospel then that? Mark 2 2And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room, not even near the door; and He was speaking the word to them. Acts 11 19So then those who were scattered because of the persecution that occurred in connection with Stephen made their way to Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch, speaking the word to no one except to Jews alone. What was it they were afraid to speak? The gospel or plan of God. Luke 8:11 “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. What is the seed if not the gospel or plan of God Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” So the word of God is something that requires action. You cannot do a person or a statement, but you can do the plan of God. Luke 11:28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” The word “observe” in this verse is phulasso which means to watch, guard or protect. Again something that requires an action. Can you watch, guard or protect a statement? No but you can do so to a plan. Acts 6:7 The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith. A statement cannot literally spread, but the plan of God can and does in this verse converting many. Acts 13:5 When they reached Salamis, they began to proclaim the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews; and they also had John as their helper. What did they proclaim in the synagogues? The gospel or plan of God. Acts 18:11 And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them. What did they teach if not the plan of God? Colossians 1:25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, What is Paul preaching if not the gospel or plan of God? The purpose of any statement is to communicate, describe or otherwise put forth an idea or concept. What is the statement of God attempting to communicate and to whom? I am sure you agree that God has something to communication to humanity. Does God wish to only tell us that He making a statement or does He wish us to understand that statement? It seems simple to me that if God wants to communicate one thing to us it is His plan for us that is revealed in Jesus Christ.  Without understanding God’s statement of His plan we can never be what He desires for us. Logos is used and defined in many ways in Christianity. It is primarily thought to literally be Jesus Christ. Other words used in conjunction with Logos are statement, speech, rhetoric, idea, plan, concept, motive or intention. Other definitions of logos are found in the realms of Greek philosophy. These include (but not limited to) order, creative energy, reason or meaning. “Originally employed as a technical philosophical term by the Greek philosopher Heraclitus (sixth century b.c.), logos became a particularly important concept for the Stoics (third century b.c. and later). In Stoicism, logos was the principle and pattern that gave the world or cosmos its character and coherence. The term was taken over by Philo, the Alexandrian philosophical theologian of Judaism, who was roughly a contemporary of the apostle Paul. By means of the logos, Philo sought to reconcile Greek philosophical theories about the universe (cosmology) with the biblical accounts of God’s creating the world by his spoken word. God’s logos became a clearly identifiable entity, mediating between God and the world, the mode of the divine creativity and revelation.” (taken from Harper’s Bible Dictionary ) Before reading my conclussions it is important to understand that those who wrote the scriptures were Hebrew. Hebrews thought in concrete patterns and their writings reflect this method of reasoning. Because of this, much of what they wrote was allegory and must be interpreted in that light. Is Logos a statement, speech or rhetoric? Yes? An allegorical statement, however a statement alone is meaningless unless we understand what is being communicated.   A statement is a vehicle by which something is communicated. This communication can be received through any of the senses. ie; I cook a delicious meal for my wife. When she (by virtue of taste) sees the trouble I went to in preparing the meal, I will have communicated something to her. I made a statement! In the case of the Logos we must conclude that God has only very important things to tell us. What could be more important to us, then his plan for us? Is the Logos Jesus Christ? Yes, in a qualified way. The Logos of God and the person of Jesus Christ cannot exist as we know them apart from eachother. Whether you believe Jesus pre-existed or not, without the intention, plan or motives of God, Jesus would not have come to be on the Earth. Without Jesus’ perfect life, example and sin sacrifice the plan of salvation would not work. The Logos is the blueprint and Jesus i s the building. God had a blueprint. It was partially revealed in the Tabernacle and the Temple. A house wherein God Himself would dwell. Jesus is the perfect Temple God intended. In Him dwelt the fullness of the Spirit or breath of God. In Him was revealed the Shakina Glory. the following verses show the connection between logos and Jesus. – Hebrews 4 Forthe word (logos) of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (The true plan of God and Jesus himself, do not deal with mental exercises or head knowledge. The plan of God and Jesus deal with with man’s thoughts and intentions.) 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. (The pronoun “His” in this verse refers to the previous verse and God) 14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. (Now we see the context change to Jesus.) 15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (So the Logos and Jesus are linked togther) Is Logos an idea or concept? Only in the sense that the idea of the messiah and plan of God was in the mind of God from the beginning. Is the Logos of God the plan of God? Yes! Again in allegory the logos (through Christ) reveals the plan of God. Is the logos the motive of God” Yes, In allegory. God’s motive is love. It is His nature and greatest attribute. You can say the logos is a statement about God’s plan, it is the plan itself, or it is the revealing of the plan in Jesus, the motive of love remains the driving force behind the logos. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. In discussing the last definition (intention) I would hope we can agree God had an intention when He created the universe and in particular, humanity. I believe it is and has always been God’s intention to raise up sons and daughters unto Himself. Children that contain within themselves the very presence of God by which they attain the moral characteristics of God Himself. God has revealed His intention, motive and plan throughout the ages in various ways. The covenant with Abraham. The miracles performed to bring the Hebrews out of bondage in Egypt. The temple the creation itself and the Torah. As I have explained in other posts, the Torah or the law was not a tool of condemnation. The Torah was a standard by which God could show us where we have missed the mark or fallen short (sin) of His character. Utilizing the very functional plan of God we can then turn to our mediator and ask help on how to do better the next time. By this process do we overcome and become like Jesus. We call these tests or trials. Some learn very quickly and others must repeat the lessons more then once. God, a good Father, is patient. (Of course Jesus, though tested in all manner like other men, never missed the mark) Everything the prophets, apostles and Jesus said and did was designed to teach us how to develop God’s moral character within ourselves. I believe that Jesus was the first fruits of God’s plan. He was the first to achieve this goal and is the pattern and example for rest of mankind. If there are those among you that do not believe Jesus to be our example and that we cannot or do not need to work with our saviour to become like Him, I can only say we must agree to disagree. Revelation 19:7 [ Marriage of the Lamb ] “Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” Philippians 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; Since Jesus is the fullfillment of the Logos of God, do we need the blueprint anymore? Only if you intend to make more buildings. God dwells in Jesus – Col 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, God dwells in us – Ephesians 3:19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. Jesus is the temple of God John 2:19 Jesus answered them, ” Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” We are the temple of God 1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are. 1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? Jesus is the lamp and God is the illumination. Revelation 21:23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. We are illuminated by God – Revelation 22:5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever. In a nut shell —–> Ephesians 4 11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; (that’s us) 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. (God defines a mature man as one who measures up to the full stature of Christ) 14As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; (It seems we are to be more concerned about relationship and becoming like Christ then about doctrine) 15but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, (Grow up IN ALL RESPECTS INTO HIM)

M42

Words are amazing to say the least. A word can have a totally different meaning depending on its context.

For example:

LIGHT or Light.
Which one means from the sun or a feather?

BREAK or Break
Which one means a shattered glass or something you take at work?

SKY or Sky
Which one is where the clouds are or is a persons name?

FIRE or Fire or fire
Which one means a flame or discharging a gun or letting someone go from their job?

Again, the writer John Influenced by the Holy Spirit used the word LOGOS in the context of the scriptures to give definition of Jesus.

That should be enough. Anything beyond that is pure man made speculation!

Blessings

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 14 2006,04:03)

Hi M42, God sends His WORD. Not His plan or His thoughts but the Words from His mouth through His Servants.

Let me play the part of God for a moment. Here are God's WORDS for you —
“Black over house relish plant cherub window coffee navy calendar picture overstuffed diminsion whacko toy truck.

Now you are required to obey God's word. What do you do?
God is waiting. What is the problem?

It is not the method in which God communicates but rather the understanding itself. There is nothing intrisically holy about words. The meaning is the key to it's importance.

It seems that many on this board are only interested in mental gymnastics. They want to argue minor details of words or methods and ignor the important issues of actually walking with God. They make this a board of Christian philosophy and not a forum to discuss how to grow in God.

If there are any on this board that ae actually interested in sharing and discussing how the plan of God actually works or how it applies to us, I am more then open to it. As for you philosophers, I see no point in debating you. It is becoming vain chatter!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Let me play the part of God for a moment. Here are God's WORDS for you — “Black over house relish plant cherub window coffee navy calendar picture overstuffed diminsion whacko toy truck. Now you are required to obey God's word. What do you do? God is waiting. What is the problem? It is not the method in which God communicates but rather the understanding itself. There is nothing intrisically holy about words. The meaning is the key to it's importance. It seems that many on this board are only interested in mental gymnastics. They want to argue minor details of words or methods and ignor the important issues of actually walking with God. They make this a board of Christian philosophy and not a forum to discuss how to grow in God. If there are any on this board that ae actually interested in sharing and discussing how the plan of God actually works or how it applies to us, I am more then open to it. As for you philosophers, I see no point in debating you. It is becoming vain chatter!

m42

I agree with you that we should seek to grow in God by understanding his word.

How do you suggest we understand his word?

[music4two]

At last an excelent question. Thank you very much!!!!

Here is a portion of an article I wrote some years ago. This was written to new Christians and may have some simplistic concepts but still valuable.

“We have also a more sure word of prophecy; where unto ye do well that ye take heed as unto a light that shineth in a dark place” (II Peter 1:19) “A dark place”. How very accurate is that statement when describing how confused many Christians are concerning proper ways in which to interpret and understand God’s Word.
It is an unfortunate fact that many Christians have no idea how to study scripture honestly. This is true of even the most “so-called” mature christians.
All Christians that claim to want a deeper walk with God should study the word.
Acts 17/11 “Now these were more noble minded then those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the scriptures daily, to see if these things be true.”
When discussing scripture with the brethren it is imperative that we “Maintain a unity of the Spirit until we come to a unity of the faith, where we speak the same things.” This can only be accomplished by an open heart for the truth and an honest, non-judgemental approach to interpretation of Scripture. This non-judgemental approach is most important when dealing with those whom we perceive as in false beliefs.
John 7:17
” If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

The most important concept to understand in the previous verse is motive. Do you seek an interpretation to prove your doctrine? Do you seek to maintain your status quo and avoid confrontation or do you seek to do the will of God. Are you willing to lay down doctrines, traditions, and preconceived ideas as to what you are about to discover?
Do you seek to understand your rich Judeo-Christian history? Do you seek to know God’s plan for all men and you personally? Do you seek to know the character of Christ and become like him?
Your motives in researching the word will strongly effect whether you will follow these principles or not.

We all interpret whatever we read. Interpretation is the basis under which we comprehend what is being said. In order to really be honest with the Word it is necessary to have certain logical rules for interpretation. These rules are commonly called Hermeneutics or principles of exegesis. They are based on logic and very simple concepts of the christian walk.

The most common form of interpretation used today is called “Cut and Paste Theology”. In this method a person can take a scripture out of context put it with several others, disregarding any proper hermeneutical principles and make a doctrine out of it. Not understanding the culture or definitions of words. Using ambiguous scriptures that are misinterpreted to contradict very clear scriptures. With this type of “scholarship” a person can prove just about anything from scripture. When one actually looks at these doctrines with proper principles they completely fall apart. This is not to say that there are not scriptures that can stand on their own but always must also stand within the proper interpretive process. In otherwords they need no other scriptures for their meaning to be very clear.
First we must be honest with ourselves and our nature —
1. We are easily deceived – Jeremiah 17/9 – “The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick. Who can understand it? We must be willing to set aside our preconceived ideas and let God speak to us. We must be willing to set aside our pride and fear in our hearts. Our fear of being proven wrong. We must have enough courage to trust God that if the truth stands in contradiction to what we have always believed then we must love the truth more then our historical beliefs.
II Thessalonians 2/10 – 13 “…. And with all the deception of wickedness for those that perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved….” We must love the truth no matter how it upsets our apple cart. The word must be the final authority no matter how it shakes our traditions or doctrines.
Most Christians will proclaim this until you touch a pet doctrine that they are afraid to change.
2. The purpose and inspiration of Scripture –
II Timothy 3/16 and 17 – “All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”
( This comes right back to the motive. The truths we derive from scripture must train us for righteousness and equip us for good works.)

We start from a premiss that the “original scriptures” as written by the prophets and apostles were inspired by God Himself. No particular later translation has inspiration. There are good and bad translations. Those who penned the scriptures wrote exactly what God wanted to say and that God wants us to know the truth. God used the personalities of the authors, situations, natural realm and circumstances for the purpose of teaching us. The purpose of scripture is to win the lost and to teach the saved how to become like Christ and walk with God as He did.
We must also come to grips with the fact that one book cannot contain everything about God. Not even this magnificent testimony in scripture can tell us all the facts about the actions of Jesus on this earth.
John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

Even great knowledge about the scriptures cannot take the place of personal interaction and relationship with God. You can study all the scriptures about salvation. You can read all the great teachers on the subject, but untill you experiance the sweet grace of God and feel the burden of sin lifted from your soul and the first intimate touch of the Holy Spirit, you do not know salvation. The word is a teaching tool to bring us to relationship with Christ.

3. In the past 100 years there have been very significant archeological finds that directly impact our understanding of scripture such as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Keep you research material current.
Now that we have established a basis to begin, let’s talk about the fundamentals of understanding scripture.
Here is a list of principles to use to properly use, translate, and understand scripture.
1. Scripture must interpret scripture. No one has a private interpretation but all proofs must come from the word itself. A good idea and safety is to use scriptural terms to understand the meaning of a verse.
2. It does not matter what we believe to be true or how we feel about a subject. All that matters is what can be clearly and properly proven in the word.
3. Spend a majority of time in clear understandable scripture. Never base a belief on ambiguous scriptures.
4. There is only one truth. Never base a doctrine on an interpretation of scriptures that causes contradiction with other clear scriptures. If there is a seeming contradiction, this indicates a need for further research to ascertain the truth. A clear scripture always supersedes and ambigous one and does not cause a contradiction.
5. When attempting to understand a difficult scripture follow these guidelines —
A. Form a hypothesis of what you think it may mean then test it. this really is automatic, since we will come to an idea by simply reading the verse in question.
B. Does your idea fit the immediate context? This is the first and formost challenge and the one most often missed.
C. Does your idea fit the general over all tenor or context of scripture and the heart of God. This can be a bit more difficult since some Christians have false ideas about the heart of God and His character.
D. Is the language f
igurative or literal. In many cases a little common sence can be applied here. For instance no biologist in the world is going to confirm the existance of a seven headed beast as is mentioned in Revelations. This is obviously a figuritive story.
E. Understand the historical, geographical or cultural time in which it is written.
F. Understand who was inspired to write the scripture and to whom it was being written.
G. Use several translations to avoid the possible bias of one particular translator.
H. Define questionable words or phrases thru Bible dictionaries or Encyclopedias. Preferably ones that derive their definitions from the original languages. (again use several sources) Do not make the mistake of trying to research everything yourself. Refer to other experts in Greek and Hebrew. Always use the most common literal definition unless there is very clear evidence to use another. (bear in mind this evidence must also follow these hermeneutical principles)
I. Compare scripture with scripture. Compare a questionable scripture to other scriptures that use the same words or speak of the same concepts.
J. Understand that God uses allegories and parables to teach spiritual truth.
K. God uses the physical realm to teach about the spiritual realm.
L. God lives out of our linear time frame and looks at things from an eternal perspective.
M. The original text was not separated into chapter and verse. Many times one verse is directly related to, or part of, the verses before or after it. Many times they are connected by words such as “for” or “and”. Most spacing, capitolization and puncuation are recent additions to scripture and did not exist in the originals.(Furthermore for those more advanced in ancient manuscripts of scripture, much more weight should be placed on older copies of scripture then on more recent copies. There is less chance for errors in copying)
P. The original text is written in several languages from several time periods and cultures. Hebrew writers think differently then those of us brought up in the modern world. Their writings also are effected by this difference. We must therefor understand how Hebrews thought and wrote. In the cases of the epistles, you must understand the culture and circumstances of the people to which the letter is written.
Q. In the case of seeming contradictions where one scripture says one thing and dozens say the opposite go with the preponderance of evidence. In other words side with the majority of clear scripture until the apposing scripture can be properly understood.
R. In the gospels Jesus uses a form of debate common among rabbis of that time. He would quote a portion of scripture and the Pharisees would know that He implied the entire context of that verse. In this manner he would allow them to see the conclusion he wanted them to see without pointing to it exactly. He led them to the truth without confrontation.

The biggest test for doctrine is very simple. Does the end result of following this doctrine bring you closer to understanding and becoming like Christ or take you further away from these goals.

I have saved the most important lesson of all for last.

BE LED OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

Prayerfully seek God’s guidance in understanding. The most important reason for study is to have our hearts and character molded to be like Jesus. We do not seek to have only head knowledge but a living truth that transforms lives.

There are literally thousands of bibles on the market to choose from. For new christians this choice can be overwhelming. To help you in this quest here are a few descriptions.

1611 King James
(actually the true 1611 version is extremely rare as it had been revised several times shortly after it’s original translation)
The translation we commonly refer as the King James Version is probably is the most beautiful, elegant, literary English translation that will ever be produced.
Nevertheless, there are two major problems with the King James Version. First of all, when it was translated in 1611, there were relatively few Hebrew and Greek manuscripts available and they tended to be recent and less accurate. In the nearly 400 years since then literally thousands more manuscripts have been discovered, ranging from small portions to complete copies of the Old or New Testaments.  Many of these are very early and more accurate. This of course leads to mistranslations in several places. Some quite important. Furthermore King James was very pro catholic and pro Church of England’s doctrines and it’s influence is seen in the text.
In a few cases words were purposely mistranslated and verses even added to support certain doctrines of the church.
Secondly, the English in the King James Version is not at all the same language spoken today. Both the vocabulary and grammar have changed considerably. As a result, a reader often must retranslate the King James into modern English in his or her mind. For many people reading the King James Version is like reading a foreign language.

New American Standard Bible (NASB) – completed in 1971, was produced by 54 conservative Protestant scholars sponsored by the Lockman Foundation. This version is very literal in vocabulary and word order, although the resulting English is quite wooden. It often is preferred by those who want an English version that reflects the grammar of the original. An Update was published in 1995 which seeks to use more modern English while preserving the literal nature of the translation.

New International Version (NIV), completed in 1978, was the product of 115 evangelical scholars. Within a decade it became the best-selling English version. It combines contemporary, literary English with traditional biblical vocabulary. The NIV is copyrighted by the International Bible Society.

New King James Version (NKJV), released in 1982, involved 119 contributors. It updates the vocabulary and grammar of the King James Version, while preserving the classic style and beauty. Although it uses the same Hebrew and Greek texts as the original, (preserving the same mistakes as the 1611 version) it indicates where other manuscripts differ. Published by Thomas Nelson.

For research material there are two very necessary tools for the honest researcher.
1. A Concordance for your particular translation or version of the bible. You can look up a word in this reference work and find out where that word is used elsewhere in scripture and a simple definition of that word.
2. A Bible dictionary. This is self evident in it’s use. The definitions are much more detailed then a concordance.
There are many other references for the more advanced researcher. Also available are commentaries written by various people on parts of scripture. These are basically their opinions on the meaning of the scripture under discussion. Some use good research and others not so good. Usually you have to research the author before you can trust his opinions.

[Worshipping Jesus]

M42

Excellent Post!

The only thing I would add is that all the study of the scriptures in the world by the human intellect without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit leaves you with nothing but the dead letter of the scriptures.

Only the Spirit of truth can enlighten the scriptures to our minds.

This is why so many having the same scriptures disagree. Not because the scriptures contradict but because of the carnal mind trying to understand the things of God.

Mk 4:11-12
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

Lk 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
31, And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32, And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Jn 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I Jn 2:27
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I think if we put more emphasis on being filled with his Spirit and being led by the same then the Spirit will teach us all things.

Paul prayed….
Ehp 1:
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

[NickHassan]

amen w

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

amen w

Thank you NH.

Coming from you. I must be making some progress.

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,
You say little about the NIV
“New International Version (NIV), completed in 1978, was the product of 115 evangelical scholars. Within a decade it became the best-selling English version. It combines contemporary, literary English with traditional biblical vocabulary. The NIV is copyrighted by the International Bible Society.”

Thew first rule in translation is to be accurate and true to the original words and not add. NIV has major and serious faults in that it adds words.
eg

In Jn 12.41 it puts”Jesus” instead of “him”

NIV
“41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.”

nasb
“41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.”

kjv
” 41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.”
and it says the two witnesses of Rev11 are men with no manuscript backing.

6These MEN have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

nasb
“6These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.

kjv
“6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,
The human science of Hermeneutics is dead without the Spirit. For all their study the jewish experts stumbled over the stumbling stone and did not recognise the Messiah.

[music4two]

Did you guys only scan my article? Did you miss this?

I have saved the most important lesson of all for last.
BE LED OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD.
Prayerfully seek God’s guidance in understanding. The most important reason for study is to have our hearts and character molded to be like Jesus. We do not seek to have only head knowledge but a living truth that transforms lives.

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 14 2006,19:46)

Hi m42, You say little about the NIV “New International Version (NIV), completed in 1978, was the product of 115 evangelical scholars. Within a decade it became the best-selling English version. It combines contemporary, literary English with traditional biblical vocabulary. The NIV is copyrighted by the International Bible Society.” Thew first rule in translation is to be accurate and true to the original words and not add.  NIV has major and serious faults in that it adds words. eg In Jn 12.41 it puts”Jesus” instead of “him” NIV “41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.” nasb “41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.” kjv ” 41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.” and it says the two witnesses of Rev11 are men with no manuscript backing. 6These MEN have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. nasb “6These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. kjv “6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

I agree that the NIV has some problems. They all do to some extant.
I myself prefer the NASB, but I also look at other translations to compare and in many cases research the Hebrew or Greek text myself.

Some translations have more problems then others
The KJV has blatant added verses not in the originals.

The scripture we were talking about is in I John 5 verse 7 and 8..

It is necessary to understand the context so go back to verse 6. The verse literaly reads in the Greek manuscripts of 300 AD. “This is the (one) having come through the water and blood, Jesus Christ not in the water only but in the water and the blood. And the Spirit is bearing witness because the Spirit is the truth
7. Because the three are the bearing witness.
8 the three are for one thing
9 If we recieve the witness of men. The witness of God gives is greater, because this is the witness God gives, ther fact he has borne witness concerning his son.

This entire context is the Fathers witness of Jesus Christ.
1, Water . (water baptism) The father decends as a dove and says “This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased”.
2. The Blood– Christ death and resurection
3. The Spirit– God’s Spirit poured out at pentacost,

This is not a witness of the trinity but the Fathers witness and proof of Jesus being His son/messiah

These three proofs also line up with the three major events and feasts in Jewish history. Remember this was written to Jews. They would understand the significance of the Fathers witness of Jesus fullfilling the Feasts He instituted as a sign of the Messiah.
1. The feast of passover. Under the cloud in the water
The exodus from Egypt (baptism)
2. Feast of attonement. The sheeding of Blood/ lamb sacrifice – crucifiction.
The Feast of Pentacost – the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentacost.

Verse 8 reads as follows For there are three that bear witness the spirit and the water and the blood and the three for one thing, agreement.

A foot note states in the NAS “A few LATE manuscripts read—
For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit and these three are one and there are three that bear witness on earth , the spirit , the water, and the blood and these three are in agreement.
The NAS does not include it in the verse because the evidence would not support it being in the original.
Further research shows that there is no manuscript prior to about 1400 that include this section. It is in the Latin Vulgate translated by the Catholic Church. The latin vulgate was used extensively in the translation of the King James Version and was strongly influinced by the pro Catholic King James. There is evidence that King James used his power to coerce the translators to do nothing that would contradict the Catholic faith or the Church of England. The earlier manuscripts of Alepf, B, A and the Greek new testament do not include it. These manuscripts are from several hundred years earlier then the 1400’s. The most well respected translators such as Westcott and Hort, Nestle, Augustinius Merk SJ do not include it.

The Hebrew Bible does not include it either. It says…
He is the one who came by means of water and blood Yeshua the Messiah. Not with water only but with water and the blood. And the Spirit bears witness, because the spirit is the truth. The spirit the water and the blood and these three are in agreement.

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,
Why last?
Seek ye first the kingdom of God.
You cannot see the kingdom until you are born from above.
We must be transformed by the renewal of our hearts and minds
We sons feed the mind with the bread of life until we have the mind of Christ.
Man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.
The sons of God are led by the Spirit of God.
Man loves to be in control and understand.
The Spirit must control our lives.
First things first.
The Spirit.

[Author]

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