Jesus and blood sacrifice

[Towshab]

Christians say that before Jesus died on the cross, the only true way to receive forgiveness of sins was via animal blood sacrifice. Even Hebrews says

Heb 9:22  Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Was Jesus under the law? What did he say?

Mat 5:18  For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

If the new covenant, the covenant that no longer needed blood sacrifice because of Jesus' shed blood had not come until Jesus's death, what of the following?

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Mar 2:5  And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

Luk 7:48  And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
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What is this? I see no sacrifice here. How can sins be forgiven under the “old covenant” without blood?

[NickHassan]

Hi Tow,
The Son of God, Jesus the Christ, was given all authority including the authority to forgive sin.
Sin is against God but God is sovereign and may and does choose to ignore or remit sin.
God is merciful and loving and he manifested in these ways in His Son.

[Towshab]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 02 2008,14:40)

Hi Tow, The Son of God, Jesus the Christ, was given all authority including the authority to forgive sin.[/quote] Sorry, but Heb 9:22 does not agree with you. It says Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Sin is against God but God is sovereign and may and does choose to ignore or remit sin. God is merciful and loving and he manifested in these ways in His Son.

Too bad Hebrews 9:22 does not agree with your assessment. You do believe in your own GT don't you?

[NickHassan]

Hi Tow,
God manifested in His son.
Do you not believe God can forgive sin?
The law was written for evil men to allow for them to seek forgiveness.
But God is not bound by Law.

[Towshab]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 02 2008,14:55)

Hi Tow, God manifested in His son. Do you not believe God can forgive sin?

I know He can. But show me a single isntance where G-d said He would give another this right. All you have is Jesus claiming it for himself. And show me why Heb 9:22 says that under the law, sins can ONLY be forgiven by the shedding of blood. You hold the GT to be true yet you are now saying you do not believe Heb 9:22. Which is it Nick? Are you cherry picking your GT scripture?

Quote

The law was written for evil men to allow for them to seek forgiveness. But God is not bound by Law.

So again, you are saying Jesus is G-d? Are you a trinitarian, oneness pentacostal, or some other variation?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 03 2008,08:07)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 02 2008,14:55) Hi Tow, God manifested in His son. Do you not believe God can forgive sin? I know He can. But show me a single isntance where G-d said He would give another this right. All you have is Jesus claiming it for himself. And show me why Heb 9:22 says that under the law, sins can ONLY be forgiven by the shedding of blood. You hold the GT to be true yet you are now saying you do not believe Heb 9:22. Which is it Nick? Are you cherry picking your GT scripture? Quote The law was written for evil men to allow for them to seek forgiveness. But God is not bound by Law. So again, you are saying Jesus is G-d? Are you a trinitarian, oneness pentacostal, or some other variation?

Hi Tow,
God was in His son.
Those who know the Son thus also know the God within his vessel.
Those who did not recognise God in His son never knew God anyway.

[Towshab]

So as I thought, Nick who believes in all of the bible cannot provide evidence that G-d actually gives anyone else the right to forgive sins. Since G-d never said it, then Jesus did not have the authority to forgive sins like he said. Plus, he contradicted Heb 9:22 because he allowed forgiveness without the shedding of blood.

Both cannot be true.

[NickHassan]

Hi Tow,
I believe Jesus.
Listen to him.

[Towshab]

OK. So you believe Jesus but you obviously don't believe the writer of Hebrews.

Really Nick, how can you cherry pick GT scripture like that. You either believe it or all nothing right.

Until you believe 100% of the GT, please stop using it.

[Towshab]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 02 2008,14:55)

The law was written for evil men to allow for them to seek forgiveness.

There goes Nick, cherry picking scripture again. Which parts do you believe Nick?

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
Psa 19:8 the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;

So much for being made for evil men.

[NickHassan]

Hi Tow,
Was sinful man spoken of in these verses you offer from a bible you do not believe in?
The Word is perfect.
Why will you not believe what you write?

[Towshab]

So King David was perfect and never sinned? I thought only Jesus did that? My my, what made Jesus so special if so many before him were without sin?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 03 2008,09:05)

OK. So you believe Jesus but you obviously don't believe the writer of Hebrews. Really Nick, how can you cherry pick GT scripture like that. You either believe it or all nothing right. Until you believe 100% of the GT, please stop using it.

Hi Tow,
You should discern the intended audience.
Christ gave replies to the Jews about inheritance through the Law, though he came to fulfill the Law and initiate a kingdom.
Hebrews [and Galatians] was aimed at the Jews to help them see the kingdom through the veil of their religion and culture.

It was not given to entrap God within Law.

[Towshab]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 02 2008,16:25)

Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 03 2008,09:05) OK. So you believe Jesus but you obviously don't believe the writer of Hebrews. Really Nick, how can you cherry pick GT scripture like that. You either believe it or all nothing right. Until you believe 100% of the GT, please stop using it. Hi Tow, You should discern the intended audience. Christ gave replies to the Jews about inheritance through the Law, though he came to fulfill the Law and initiate a kingdom. Hebrews [and Galatians] was aimed at the Jews to help them see the kingdom through the veil of their religion and culture. It was not given to entrap God within Law.

So you are again saying that Jesus is G-d? Because G-d never once said He would give others the power to forgive sins, Jesus said it of himself.

You have not answered how Jesus can forgive sin with no shedding of blood when Heb 9:22 says there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. As you say, both audiences were Jewish.

[NickHassan]

Hi Tow,
You confuse me with others who believe Jesus is their God.
No he is the Son of God, a glorious human vessel for the treasure of God as Spirit.

[Towshab]

Then show me where G-d gave Jesus the authority. I want G-d's words, not the words of Jesus. Better yet, show me in Tanakh where G-d will give the King Messiah the authority to forgive sins.

[NickHassan]

Hi Tow,
You quote
Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
Psa 19:8 the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;

Then somehow find David written there?
Are you losing it?

[Towshab]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 02 2008,16:38)

Hi Tow, You quote Psa 19:7  The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple; Psa 19:8  the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes; Then somehow find David written there? Are you losing it?

Psa 19:1 To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.

Do you ever read your OT in context?

[NickHassan]

Hi Tow,
God uses many human vessels.
But they are only vessels and the work is His.
You love to elevate the importance of puny men.

[Towshab]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 02 2008,16:58)

Hi Tow, God uses many human vessels. But they are only vessels and the work is His. You love to elevate the importance of puny men.

Huh? First you say David is not in those verses (he wrote them) and now your response is that I elevate puny men?

One moment you say the bible is the word of G-d and then you say that its words were written by puny men. Which is it Nick? Whatever opposes what I write? Seems that is all you are good at: providing opposition to whatever someone writes.

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