- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (david @ Dec. 10 2005,21:04) Quote Is that an optional extra for those who want to be leaders?Jesus came to preach this kingdom and suffered and died that it be heard throughout the world. Was he wasting his time with unnecessary folly as you could always save yourself anyway? I am not saying we can save ourselves. We can't. But a kingdom as Sultan has shown is basically a government headed by a king (Jesus Christ). It is made up of rulers. This kingdom is a special provision by God set up for the benefit of mankind. God has graciously and wisely set up those who have experiences the trials of imperfection to be our judges and rulers along with Christ. Had Adam and Eve and Satan not lead us down this path of sin and death, there really wouldn't have been a need for this provision.
Nick, of course Jesus wasn't wasting his time preaching about the kingdom. You should obviously know Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe this as they more than anyone are fullfilling his words:
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”Of course Jesus preached about this kingdom. It is wonderful fabulous news. It is the means by which God uses humans to bring mankind to perfection. Those who make up the kingdom are to be priests, judges, rulers. But over whom? Every government needs subjects.
The question I was getting across was: What does it mean to “enter into the kingdom of God,” “enter the kingdom of God,” “enter the reign of God,” “enter the holy nation of God,” or “enter God’s kingdom” as various translations express it?
Jesus’ disciples understood the Kingdom to be an actual government of God, though they did not comprehend the reach of its domain. Nathanael said to Jesus: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.” (Joh 1:49) They knew the things foretold about “the holy ones” in the prophecy of Daniel. (Da 7:18, 27) Jesus directly promised his apostolic followers that they would occupy “thrones.” (Mt 19:28) James and John sought certain privileged positions in the Messianic government, and Jesus acknowledged that there would be such privileged positions, but he stated that the assigning of these rested with his Father, the Sovereign Ruler. (Mt 20:20-23; Mr 10:35-40) So, whereas his disciples mistakenly limited Messiah’s kingly rule to earth and specifically to fleshly Israel, even doing so on the day of the resurrected Jesus’ ascension (Ac 1:6), they correctly understood that it referred to a governmental arrangement.—Compare Mt 21:5; Mr 11:7-10.
Nick, I think you confuse what I say. Salvation is open to just as many people as will demonstrate true faith in the provision that God has made through Jesus. But a careful study of God’s Word and Christ’s teachings shows that only a limited number share the privilege of being born again, born ‘from water and from spirit,’ thus to share heavenly rulership with Christ. (John 3:3-5; Romans 8:16, 17; Revelation 14:1-3) [[Is everyone that claims to be born again actually born again?]] The Bible says that only 144,000 will go to heaven to be with Christ. (Revelation 14:1, 3) What will they do in heaven? (Rev. 20:6) It is obvious that they will be ruling over someone. If they are kings, there must also be subjects over whom they will rule. Who will these be? (Ps. 37:11, 29; Prov. 2:21, 22; Matt. 5:5; 6:10) The “great crowd” of true Christians today who will be subjects of this kingdom do not need to be born again, since their hope of everlasting life is earthly, not heavenly. (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:3, 4)
david.
Hi david,
Is it not sad that those who do go and preach spread a warped and deceptive false gospel. They do not become born again and neither do they lead others to salvation but just a smug and empty philosophy.Hi david,
Where does scripture say 144,000 will go to heaven to be with and rule with Christ? Speculation upon speculation…Hi david,
Certainly studying the Jehovahs witnesses has been a revelation to me. I guess door knocking enables you to develop a thick skin to criticism and faces you with a wide variety of questions which you can then use to bolster your doctrines.
You allegorise what is straighforward and use reason to justify your speculations. Having a friendly home made bible twisted to your doctrines seems to allow an impregnable fortress mentality to develop. Sadly it also is a barrier to learning and will not stand the scutiny of the Master when he returns.Quote Having a friendly home made bible twisted to your doctrines seems to allow an impregnable fortress mentality to develop.
I have quoted from many Bibles and when something is in question it is always good to see what many Bibles say. When one scripture is questioned, I have often quoted from 8 or 10 Bibles to show what they do in fact say. It is also good to know what the original Bible words in the original language means.
But you are right about having the “impregnable fortress” when it comes to doctrines. This isn't a problem when the entire Bible is taken into consideration, instead of focusing on just one or two related scriptures. Without an illustration Jesus would not speak is WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. Not me. So if something is clearly an illustration, why the shock? If you're ideas based on one scripture disagree with the majority of scriptures and this causes you problems, perhaps it is that one scripture which you misunderstand.david.
Hi,
Many use the explanation of an allegory or a parable being used when explaining how what is written cannot be contained within their doctrines-such as Lk 16 with the description of Hades.
So what is the use of allegories and parables in the bible?
Ez 20.47f [or in some versions Ez 21. 1-5]
” 'Behold I am about to kindle a fire in you and it will consume every green tree in you, as well as every dry tree: the blazing flame will not be quenched and the whole surface from south to north shall be burned by it. All flesh will see that I the Lord, have kindled it, it shall not be quenched'
Then I said
“Ah Lord God!. They are saying this of me;
'Is he not just speaking parables?'”This was no allegory. It was fulfilled in 2Kings 25 with the arrival of Nebuchadnezzer. So it is not wise to presume parables that God has not stated as parables. You may miss the real warning message.
God does use parables. But he does it so that those who are rebellious may look and look and not see and listen intently and not hear. Jesus always spoke in parables to those who of Israel and the meanings are not hidden from his true followers. He sometimes explained them to them to show you how the mind of God works.Now the Spirit of Christ does the same for those in him.
Ez 24.2” Son of man, write the name of this day, this very day. The king of Babylon has laid seige to Jerusalem this very day. Speak a parable to the rebellious house and say to them
'Thus says the Lord God
” Put on the pot…'”You cannot see the kingdom unless you are born again.
Quote So it is not wise to presume parables that God has not stated as parables.
If you are referring to Luke 16, you yourself have said that you have no problem with it being a parable. What you do question is whether Jesus use of hades is literal. You seem to flip flop back and forth. It makes it hard to be wrong when you are not sure what you believe yourself.
Are you now saying that Luke 16 isn't a parable?
Nick, why not discuss this in the thread it belongs, where we can learn or discuss, as you have stated this forum's purpose.
Why, instead, put these statements here?david.
Quote (david @ Dec. 19 2005,20:46) Quote So it is not wise to presume parables that God has not stated as parables.
If you are referring to Luke 16, you yourself have said that you have no problem with it being a parable. What you do question is whether Jesus use of hades is literal. You seem to flip flop back and forth. It makes it hard to be wrong when you are not sure what you believe yourself.
Are you now saying that Luke 16 isn't a parable?
Nick, why not discuss this in the thread it belongs, where we can learn or discuss, as you have stated this forum's purpose.
Why, instead, put these statements here?david.
Hey David if Nick comes back tell him I'm going to get a shower and will be back, please
Quite so david,
I may have been wrong. You were convinced it is a parable so let's look at it.
First. To whom did he speak in parables?Matt 13.3
” And he spoke many things to THEM in parables..
Matt 13.11
” To YOU it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to THEM it has not been granted….Therefore I speak to THEM in parables, because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing THEY do not hear nor do THEY understand”So while we have recorded for ALL to read a lage proportion of the teachings of Jesus ,it is written in parable form only to those who are outside the kingdom and do not have the Spirit to help them. And they are not designed rto be understood by THEM either, rather for THEM to stumble over.
Looking at Lk 16
“Now he was also saying TO THE DISCIPLES'
'There was a rich man..”
Since it is not specified as a parable and since it is spoken to his followers then it is unlikely to be a parable. Do you agree?Nick, I'm supposed to tell you that Kenrch went to have a shower and will be back soon.
This is funny.Kenrch. I'm pretty sure Nick could read your words as well as me.
Quote Quite so david,
I may have been wrong. You were convinced it is a parable so let's look at it.
First. To whom did he speak in parables?Matt 13.3
” And he spoke many things to THEM in parables..
Matt 13.11
” To YOU it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to THEM it has not been granted….Therefore I speak to THEM in parables, because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing THEY do not hear nor do THEY understand”So while we have recorded for ALL to read a lage proportion of the teachings of Jesus ,it is written in parable form only to those who are outside the kingdom and do not have the Spirit to help them. And they are not designed rto be understood by THEM either, rather for THEM to stumble over.
Looking at Lk 16
“Now he was also saying TO THE DISCIPLES'
'There was a rich man..”
Since it is not specified as a parable and since it is spoken to his followers then it is unlikely to be a parable. Do you agree?I'll respond to this in the “hades/hell” thread.
Quote (david @ Dec. 19 2005,03:10) Nick, I'm supposed to tell you that Kenrch went to have a shower and will be back soon.
This is funny.Kenrch. I'm pretty sure Nick could read your words as well as me.
Hi david,
Does the Holy Spirit not fascinate you? Would you not wish to see God at work among His people?Quote (david @ Dec. 18 2005,22:44) But you are right about having the “impregnable fortress” when it comes to doctrines.
Hi david,
I am sorry you misunderstood me and took me seriously here as I was speaking in allegories.Hi david,
Just because our eternal citizenship with God is reserved in the heavens does not say that is where we will live and enjoy that life in the new Jerusalem. That is simply where it is currently reserved.
The new Jerusalem is on the new earth is it not?Yes, there are about 3 by name and a couple others specifically directed towards Jehovah's Witnesses now. A moment after you found out I was a Witness, you started one. It suprised me.
I'm wondering why there are no….actually, I don't even know what the other religions on here are, other than one Roman Catholic. But why are there no special threads on them.Hi david,
You have been a very good forum contributor and helpful to many I would say. There are forums on other faiths too .None should have anything to hide from scriptural light surely?But do you have anything specific? I mean, there are 4 or 5 threads on Jehovah's Witnesses with several pages each.
Isn't unitarianism like triniatarinism, not really a faith?
And protestantism–do you have any specific faiths.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
