Jehovah&#39;s witnesses

Participant

Quote (david @ Dec. 22 2010,15:23)

Ed, as far as distractions go, do you think it's a coincidence that you began this questioning of me about a day after I spoke ill of your Bible code theories? I actually don't think it's a distraction personally, but I just think that you hold that belief so dear, that it upset you greatly and you took it personally when I spoke so frankly about your Bible code beliefs.

Hi David,

Why do you keep trying to flip the questions that I ask you about your organization,
trying to somehow make it something other than disclosure of “The Truth”?
Is not you trying to shift the focus to me a 'distraction' on your part?

December 22, 2010 at 6:14 am#229614

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2010,15:25)

Quote (david @ Dec. 22 2010,15:08)

Quote

My only goal is press David to be honest with regards to his organization!
Because he has a habit of being evasive towards questions(in using distractions),
and even going so far as dissuading away from “The Truth”(the essence of telling LIES).

–Ed.

Ed, I have never been dishonest about JW's. (If you are accusing me of something, perhaps a quote and page number would be nice.)
On your second point, do you think Jesus' teaching methods were evasive…his use of illustrations…do you know why he said he used them?
And I have no idea what your last statement is even trying to say. But if you are accusing me of lying, please state where.
And if you are saying I'm lying by saying the Bible code is fallacious, no one on here would disagree with me, except you.

david

Hi David,

Pages 66-72 I asked you (the essence) this of this question…

Quote

Is it not true that your organization has taught YOU(david)
that current non-members of your organization are not Christians?

To which you answered different questions such as what you 'thought' the first Christians were like.

Diversionary tactics like insinuating I was really asking if you thought I was a Christian.

to finally stating…

Quote (david @ Dec. 16 2010,16:32)

The only answer you will get from me is: 'People who follow Christ are Christians.'
The answer is not: 'People who say or convince themself that they are following Christ.'

All of which fall far short of the honest answer of YES, they do teach that.

So that, my friend, is why I say… “your honesty is now in question with regard to your 'visable' organization!”

Hi David,

Dirtyknections said yes (to my question) on Page 65,
and betweenChristendomAndJWs said yes on Page 70.

Instead of the truthful answer of “yes” that is what they teach, you Posted…
On the last Post of page 65 (you posted) a bunch of unrelated stuff
and then at the bottom of your Post you ended it with: 'NOPE'.

Now, was this a 'lie' on your part (that you could justify in your mind,
because you weren't really answering the correct question)?

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 05 2010,20:17)

Here is what the watchtower society says…
Watchtower publication: May 15, 2009 Pages 4-5…

'It is the course of discretion to guard our lips when in the presence of wicked people.
When confronted by ridicules in our ministry, silence may well be the proper response…'

'A person of “broad discernment” does not betray a confidence. (Prov.11:12)'
A true Christian will not divulge confidential matters through unguarded speech.
Christian elders must be particularly circumspect in this regard
so as to retain the trust of members of the congregation.',

David, do you take this to mean that you can lie to avoid incriminating evidence?

Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

December 23, 2010 at 4:21 am#229692

betweenchristendomandjws

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 22 2010,14:06)

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ Dec. 22 2010,20:51)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2010,03:56)

Hi Between,

Are you saying 'they' would disapprove?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Yes, i'm saying they'll disapprove, it's hardly a Dfing act though. I'm interested in knowing how your going to use my response to accuse my brothers, should be interesting.

Bet

no it is a control thing.

Pierre

You'll be brainwashed to if you never left the prophets or the kings. I mean imagine staying with an israelite king or prophet of God who instead of holding on to true worship he commited to spiritual fornication!!!!!!

The difference between me and most JW's is I left for a few years(not out of resentment but I just stopped going). So I have my own mind. Like the few men before christ that ran away from the israelites when they commited spiritual fornication and then went back when they stopped, so to I left when they commited spiritual fornication and went back when they stopped. It's far from perfect but it's far more organized then any christendom group.

December 23, 2010 at 5:11 am#229698

terraricca

Participant

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ Dec. 23 2010,21:21)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 22 2010,14:06)

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ Dec. 22 2010,20:51)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2010,03:56)

Hi Between,

Are you saying 'they' would disapprove?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Yes, i'm saying they'll disapprove, it's hardly a Dfing act though. I'm interested in knowing how your going to use my response to accuse my brothers, should be interesting.

Bet

no it is a control thing.

Pierre

bet

sorry but i have noclue of what you talking about ?

December 23, 2010 at 6:36 am#229724

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2010,15:25)

Quote (david @ Dec. 22 2010,15:08)

Quote

–Ed.

david

Hi David,

Pages 66-72 I asked you (the essence) this of this question…

Quote

Is it not true that your organization has taught YOU(david)
that current non-members of your organization are not Christians?

To which you answered different questions such as what you 'thought' the first Christians were like.

Diversionary tactics like insinuating I was really asking if you thought I was a Christian.

to finally stating…

Quote (david @ Dec. 16 2010,16:32)

The only answer you will get from me is: 'People who follow Christ are Christians.'
The answer is not: 'People who say or convince themself that they are following Christ.'

All of which fall far short of the honest answer of YES, they do teach that.

So that, my friend, is why I say… “your honesty is now in question with regard to your 'visable' organization!”

Hi Ed.

So for the record, what you are saying is, I didn't lie to you anywhere and you have fabricated this insinuation against me based on the fact that I didn't answer you directly?

And you continue to repeat this false idea about me.

Doesn't sound like something Christ would do. Ed, how do you feel about Jesus?

December 23, 2010 at 6:40 am#229726

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2010,16:14)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2010,15:25)

Quote (david @ Dec. 22 2010,15:08)

Quote

–Ed.

david

Hi David,

Pages 66-72 I asked you (the essence) this of this question…

Quote

Is it not true that your organization has taught YOU(david)
that current non-members of your organization are not Christians?

To which you answered different questions such as what you 'thought' the first Christians were like.

Diversionary tactics like insinuating I was really asking if you thought I was a Christian.

to finally stating…

Quote (david @ Dec. 16 2010,16:32)

The only answer you will get from me is: 'People who follow Christ are Christians.'
The answer is not: 'People who say or convince themself that they are following Christ.'

All of which fall far short of the honest answer of YES, they do teach that.

So that, my friend, is why I say… “your honesty is now in question with regard to your 'visable' organization!”

Hi David,

Dirtyknections said yes (to my question) on Page 65,
and betweenChristendomAndJWs said yes on Page 70.

Now, was this a 'lie' on your part (that you could justify in your mind,
because you weren't really answering the correct question)?

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 05 2010,20:17)

Here is what the watchtower society says…
Watchtower publication: May 15, 2009 Pages 4-5…

'It is the course of discretion to guard our lips when in the presence of wicked people.
When confronted by ridicules in our ministry, silence may well be the proper response…'

David, do you take this to mean that you can lie to avoid incriminating evidence?

In the post above, Ed says:

Quote

On the last Post of page 65 (you posted) a bunch of unrelated stuff
and then at the bottom of your Post you ended it with: 'NOPE'.

Now, was this a 'lie' on your part (that you could justify in your mind,
because you weren't really answering the correct question)?

If you just read his words, it looks like I am saying “nope” to his question that he keeps spamming. But really, if you go to that page, I am saying “nope” to his Bible code stuff.

Again, Ed misrepresents me.

See for yourself on the bottom of page 65, what I was actually referring to.

December 23, 2010 at 6:44 am#229727

Participant

Quote (david @ Dec. 23 2010,16:09)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 23 2010,16:13)

Quote (david @ Dec. 23 2010,16:18)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 20 2010,17:56)

Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 20 2010,16:15)

Jesus is not Michael the Archangel. He is the Word of God. If he was Michael it would say.

Hi Shimmer,

Here is PROOF that Jesus is “NOT” Michael the Archangel…

“For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou(יהוה) art mindful of him?
or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;
thou crownedst him with glory and honor, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Thou(יהוה YÄ-hä-vā) hast put all things in subjection under (יהשוע YÄ-shü-ă)his feet.
For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.” (Heb.2:5-8)

Ed,

He being over the angels does not mean he can not be an angel any more than Obama being over americans does not mean Obama is not an American.

This proof is fallacious.

I can give you a hundred more examples if you like. Or, I could possibly find you the actual name of the fallacy.

Hi David,

“Two” examples using Scripture will suffice; do you have any? (Matt.18:16)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

There is no scipture that says obama is an american, but logically and legally, he must be.
Some things I believe just because they are logical.

Quote

He being over the angels does not mean he can not be an angel any more than Obama being over americans does not mean Obama is not an American.

You do get this, right?

Or do you really not?

Hi David,

Heb.2:5 says that God did NOT put the world to come under any Angel.
What is so difficult about that for 'you' to understand; David?

Instead you try to rationalize a JW fallacy using philosophy; why?
Col.2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy
and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the
rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.

December 23, 2010 at 6:44 am#229728

Participant

Quote

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 05 2010,20:17)
Here is what the watchtower society says…
Watchtower publication: May 15, 2009 Pages 4-5…

'It is the course of discretion to guard our lips when in the presence of wicked people.
When confronted by ridicules in our ministry, silence may well be the proper response…'

David, do you take this to mean that you can lie to avoid incriminating evidence?

–ed

Well, Ed, it doesn't say anything about lying does it?

Do you remember Jesus Ed?

Think back to Pilot. It will come to you. Sometimes, even Jesus (who I follow) did not answer his ridiculers or accusers.

Are you a Christian (follower of Jesus) Ed?

December 23, 2010 at 6:50 am#229730

Participant

Quote

Heb.2:5 says that God did NOT put the world to come under any Angel.
What is so difficult about that for 'you' to understand; David?

–Ed

I do not understand it because the bible does not say it.

It says that it wasn't to “angels” that he subjected the world. It doesn't say what you believe it does.

In our little illustration that you don't understand or won't acknowledge, it would be like the white house saying that America is not lead by “Americans.” (meaning, it is lead by the president, one american.)

You misrepresent what the Bible actually says.

Please start quoting actual scripture.

david.

December 23, 2010 at 6:53 am#229732

Participant

Quote (david @ Dec. 23 2010,16:36)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2010,15:25)

Quote (david @ Dec. 22 2010,15:08)

Quote

–Ed.

david

Hi David,

Pages 66-72 I asked you (the essence) this of this question…

Quote

Is it not true that your organization has taught YOU(david)
that current non-members of your organization are not Christians?

To which you answered different questions such as what you 'thought' the first Christians were like.

Diversionary tactics like insinuating I was really asking if you thought I was a Christian.

to finally stating…

Quote (david @ Dec. 16 2010,16:32)

The only answer you will get from me is: 'People who follow Christ are Christians.'
The answer is not: 'People who say or convince themself that they are following Christ.'

All of which fall far short of the honest answer of YES, they do teach that.

So that, my friend, is why I say… “your honesty is now in question with regard to your 'visable' organization!”

Hi Ed.

So for the record, what you are saying is, I didn't lie to you anywhere and you have fabricated this insinuation against me based on the fact that I didn't answer you directly?

And you continue to repeat this false idea about me.

Doesn't sound like something Christ would do. Ed, how do you feel about Jesus?

Hi David,

I NEVER said you lied!

I only said (based on the FACTS) that you didn't tell “The Truth”!

December 23, 2010 at 6:53 am#229734

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2010,15:29)

Quote (david @ Dec. 22 2010,15:21)

Ed,

You do realize that lying is when you say something false that you know is wrong.

Hi David,

What do you call it when a person's response leads someone
away from “The Truth” of (the essence) to which they inquire?

bump for David

December 23, 2010 at 6:59 am#229737

Participant

Quote

Hi David,

I NEVER said you lied!

I only said (based on the FACTS) that you didn't tell “The Truth”!

–ed.

Well, you have accused me of “the essense of telling lies,” whatever that means.

That sounds a lot like you are saying I am lying yet you can point to absolutely no sentence that is a lie.

December 23, 2010 at 7:01 am#229738

Participant

Quote (david @ Dec. 23 2010,16:36)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2010,15:25)

Quote (david @ Dec. 22 2010,15:08)

Quote

–Ed.

david

Hi David,

Pages 66-72 I asked you (the essence) this of this question…

Quote

Is it not true that your organization has taught YOU(david)
that current non-members of your organization are not Christians?

To which you answered different questions such as what you 'thought' the first Christians were like.

Diversionary tactics like insinuating I was really asking if you thought I was a Christian.

to finally stating…

Quote (david @ Dec. 16 2010,16:32)

The only answer you will get from me is: 'People who follow Christ are Christians.'
The answer is not: 'People who say or convince themself that they are following Christ.'

All of which fall far short of the honest answer of YES, they do teach that.

So that, my friend, is why I say… “your honesty is now in question with regard to your 'visable' organization!”

Hi Ed.

So for the record, what you are saying is, I didn't lie to you anywhere and you have fabricated this insinuation against me based on the fact that I didn't answer you directly?

And you continue to repeat this false idea about me.

Doesn't sound like something Christ would do. Ed, how do you feel about Jesus?

Hi David,

Is this your way of trying to say “Yes” to the question?…
Is it not true that your organization has taught YOU(david)
that current non-members of your organization are not Christians?
Have you decided to be truthful in regards to your 'visible' organization now?

December 23, 2010 at 7:08 am#229739

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 23 2010,16:53)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2010,15:29)

Quote (david @ Dec. 22 2010,15:21)

Ed,

You do realize that lying is when you say something false that you know is wrong.

Hi David,

What do you call it when a person's response leads someone
away from “The Truth” of (the essence) to which they inquire?

bump for David

But I did not do that Ed.

I used an “example” of yourself and what you believe about “Christians who kill.” (You state that they don't and therefore are guilty of doing what you are asking me about. I hoped you would make a connection.)

All of this was meant to point you “toward” what you were asking, but because it seems so much like you are constantly accusing me of things, misrepresenting me, etc, you would understand that I am reluctant to answer anything in such a way that you might twist into believing accomplishes your goal.

I stayed on subject, but no, I didn't answer your question directly. (I wonder if Pilot was as frustrated with Jesus when he wouldn't answer him?)

I am not your puppet ed. Perhaps if I had the slightest belief that you werent trying to constantly set me up or accuse me of things I would be more direct.

But for now, you only get illustrations and examples. (It's something Jesus did.)

December 23, 2010 at 7:10 am#229740

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 23 2010,17:01)

Quote (david @ Dec. 23 2010,16:36)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2010,15:25)

Quote (david @ Dec. 22 2010,15:08)

Quote

–Ed.

david

Hi David,

Pages 66-72 I asked you (the essence) this of this question…

Quote

Is it not true that your organization has taught YOU(david)
that current non-members of your organization are not Christians?

To which you answered different questions such as what you 'thought' the first Christians were like.

Diversionary tactics like insinuating I was really asking if you thought I was a Christian.

to finally stating…

Quote (david @ Dec. 16 2010,16:32)

The only answer you will get from me is: 'People who follow Christ are Christians.'
The answer is not: 'People who say or convince themself that they are following Christ.'

All of which fall far short of the honest answer of YES, they do teach that.

So that, my friend, is why I say… “your honesty is now in question with regard to your 'visable' organization!”

Hi Ed.

So for the record, what you are saying is, I didn't lie to you anywhere and you have fabricated this insinuation against me based on the fact that I didn't answer you directly?

And you continue to repeat this false idea about me.

Doesn't sound like something Christ would do. Ed, how do you feel about Jesus?

Hi David,

No Ed.
It's my way of pointing out to everyone and for the record that you are essentially making a baseless claim.

I have never lied to you and you can't show one sentence where I did.

And when you try to show where I am dishonest, you fail to do so.

I am pointing it out, despite it being absurdly obvious.

December 23, 2010 at 7:14 am#229741

Participant

Quote

[David] has a habit of being evasive towards questions(in using distractions),
and even going so far as dissuading away from “The Truth”(the essence of telling LIES).

–Ed.

I always thought the essense of telling lies was stating falsehood purposefully.

Could you explain what “dissuading away from the truth” means. What am I doing in this regard? If I am dissauding away from truth as you claim, does that mean I am pointing toward lies? In plain English, what are you saying? (I often don't understand you.)

December 23, 2010 at 7:22 am#229743

Participant

Quote (david @ Dec. 23 2010,16:40)

If you just read his words, it looks like I am saying “nope” to his question that he keeps spamming. But really, if you go to that page, I am saying “nope” to his Bible code stuff.

Again, Ed misrepresents me.

See for yourself on the bottom of page 65, what I was actually referring to.

Hi David,

That's the very reason I had to ask you the same question over 5 times,
because you were being evasive, and wanted me to believe you answered it,
when (in fact) you really hadn't! AS YOU HAVE NOW FINALLY ADMITTED TO ALL!

Here's the proof…

Quote (david @ Nov. 05 2010,18:36)

Quote

Hi David,
Is it not true that your organization teaches that non-members are non-Christians?

Answer: We believe exactly what the earliest Christians believed, that we belong to the true religion.
Were they wrong? Would you ask the same of them? And now for the kicker: Would they believe in your number conspiracy?

Nope.

What do you call it when a person's response leads someone
away from “The Truth” of (the essence) to which they inquire?

December 23, 2010 at 7:23 am#229744

Participant

Quote (david @ Dec. 23 2010,16:50)

Quote

Heb.2:5 says that God did NOT put the world to come under any Angel.
What is so difficult about that for 'you' to understand; David?

–Ed

I do not understand it because the bible does not say it.

It says that it wasn't to “angels” that he subjected the world. It doesn't say what you believe it does.

You misrepresent what the Bible actually says.

Please start quoting actual scripture.

david.

Hi David,

How is it you fail to understand what the Scripture is saying here about the world to come?

For unto the angels hath he NOT put in subjection the world to come,
whereof we speak. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man,
that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him
with glory and honor, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he
put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. (Hebrews 2:5-8)

December 23, 2010 at 8:06 am#229747

Participant

Quote (david @ Dec. 23 2010,17:10)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 23 2010,17:01)

Quote (david @ Dec. 23 2010,16:36)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2010,15:25)

Quote (david @ Dec. 22 2010,15:08)

Quote

–Ed.

david

Hi David,

Pages 66-72 I asked you (the essence) this of this question…

Quote

Is it not true that your organization has taught YOU(david)
that current non-members of your organization are not Christians?

To which you answered different questions such as what you 'thought' the first Christians were like.

Diversionary tactics like insinuating I was really asking if you thought I was a Christian.

to finally stating…

Quote (david @ Dec. 16 2010,16:32)

The only answer you will get from me is: 'People who follow Christ are Christians.'
The answer is not: 'People who say or convince themself that they are following Christ.'

All of which fall far short of the honest answer of YES, they do teach that.

So that, my friend, is why I say… “your honesty is now in question with regard to your 'visable' organization!”

Hi Ed.

So for the record, what you are saying is, I didn't lie to you anywhere and you have fabricated this insinuation against me based on the fact that I didn't answer you directly?

And you continue to repeat this false idea about me.

Doesn't sound like something Christ would do. Ed, how do you feel about Jesus?

Hi David,

No Ed.
1) It's my way of pointing out to everyone and for the record that you are essentially making a baseless claim.

2) I have never lied to you and you can't show one sentence where I did.

3) And when you try to show where I am dishonest, you fail to do so.

I am pointing it out, despite it being absurdly obvious.

Hi David,

1) The claim that when I asked you this question, you didn't give “The Truth”?

Quote

Is it not true that your organization has taught YOU(david)
that current non-members of your organization are not Christians?

Here is my PROOF, in your own words….

Quote

I didn't answer your question directly.

2) I NEVER said you did!

3) You refused to answer this question honestly; did you not?

Quote

Is it not true that your organization has taught YOU(david)
that current non-members of your organization are not Christians?

Dirtyknections answered this question honestly on Page 65,
and betweenChristendomAndJWs answered this question honestly on Page 70.

December 23, 2010 at 8:38 am#229748